Experience with professional defense training with your OES?
Obviously OES are not the first dogs you think of when you think of a "guard" dog but I've been told that they can be trained for protection purposes and am curious if anyone here has tried and what their experience has been. My OES, Spike, is the sweetest dog on the planet to anyone and everyone he meets - he doesn't have a mean bone in his body and I certainly wouldn't want to change that but it would be comforting to know that, if need be, I could call on him to defend me in a scary situation. My reason for this inquiry is that last Saturday night at 11:30pm I let Spike out to potty and went with him where he spotted a man with a flashlight attempting to break-in to my house. I live in the country and my land is 80% fenced. I know all my neighbors well enough to know that they wouldn't be stupid enough to go snooping around in my yard (close to the house) without permission, especially at that hour. Anyway, Spike barked at the trespasser like a good boy, but he doesn't make threatening sounds (i.e., growl) ever and the most he'd probably do to someone is jump up and lick them. I am planning to get another dog at some point but I would like to see if training Spike to be a better protector is worth doing. And before anyone brings it up, I have considered purchasing a firearm but am not completely comfortable with that as a solution to this scenario. Thanks in advance for any productive/constructive input on this subject. |
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| I don't know anything about "defense training" and I guess I wouldn't want too....... I think of that sort of thing as something that would require not only a professional to train for but a professional handler (such as polic dogs etc). I wonder if it is possible to retain a "sweet" personality in a dog you are teaching to be an attack dog?
My experience has been that OES are very PROTECTIVE of their family. I would not want to be ther person who came uninvited into my house or threatened me or my kids when Tasker was around. I have seen his protective instict kick in and it can appear pretty serious without "attack training". I don't know how old SPike is but you might be suprised how protective he became if you were truly being threatened. My thoughts are concentrate on a well trained obedient dog and not teaching him to "attack". |
| I would say that oes are good "watch dogs" (will alert you) but not guard dogs. |
| I know someone who owns a german shepard and has him trained to do so and also takes him to compititions regarding attack..he is a sweet dog, but on command will rip you to shreds...I find it kinda scary...but....
Now, regarding protection....I had a scary situation a few months back....and Panda barked once, ran between my legs and hitailed it to the bedroom....so, yes they may bark, but I personally wouldnt treat her as a guard dog...barely a watch dog at that......  |
| Sounds like you got exactly what you needed in terms of protection!!!
Spike's a big boy and 99% of would-be intruders wouldn't know the difference between a happy bark and a protective one. You could always yell: "EASY SATAN! NOT NOW BOY! WATCH HIM!" That would do as much as any growl. |
| Generally speaking from a crime prevention standpoint... just having the dog is enough to deter people. The idea is not so much bodily injury, but the noise a dog makes when he sees someone. Theifs like the quiet. OES are herding dogs, so I'm not sure how well suited they would be to schutzhund (That's the german name for the protection trainng they do for German sheperds) or similar training. I can certainly see how you would like to be able to train him for personal protection, I'm just not sure if he would take to it.
However, try "Leerburg Kennels" website. (here's hoping I'm not breaking any rules Ron) They are a german shepherd kennel and training facility. They are in WI and have a big training program for personal protection and schutzhund, including videos and I think maybe even classes on the subject. This is really the only source I know personally for personal protection, but it is a place to start, anyhow. Note that I've never personally worked with them, but stumbled across their site when we were first considering getting a puppy (as Mike thinks he wants a GSD) |
| I had a German shepherd who was attack trained. Both of her parents were police dogs for the Munich police force. I wanted her trained because I knew it was in her instincts, but I wanted to be able to control it. I never used it (thank goodness), but Russel (her trainer) showed us demonstrations of her doing it. It took about 6 weeks of Dakota staying at the kennel, but she learned all her commands in German, English, as well as sign language. Now, her brother was the guard dog where I worked. He got a chance to use his skills and helped the police catch a guy that had robbed a gas station after he jumped over the fence at the building where I worked. Kiser was black, so he was hard to see at night and the guy had no idea he was out there. Dakota was black and silver, so the silver reflected a little more light.
Jasper...he growls sometimes but mostly stands between me and whoever he is uncomfortable with and barks. I'm not sure he'd do well with it though. He has too lovable of a personality. He definitely couldn't be away from me for 6 weeks, he'd probably lie there and sulk the entire time since he hardly even leaves my side. |
| Since I work for a police force I have been lucky enough to be able to attend some of the k-9 trainings. They have even done some work with Carl to see what kind of a police dog he would be.
The biggest thing in that sort of training is focus and drive. The dog has to have a very intense attention to the handler and has to have a hard drive. The drive is where Carl seems to really be lacking because we trained it out of him from a very early age. One of the tests that they do is to show them a toy they like, play with them with the toy for a while and then hide it. They need to go after the toy until they find it and be hardcore about getting that toy. Most of us find that an undesireable trait and try to get rid of it therefor it tends to destroy that part of the working mentality. Some of the other test results were: They have a very adequate bite strength. They are physically prime for long work periods (if not in coat!). They have a potential for drive but it has to be shaped from an early age. It's been a while since we did the testing but that's pretty much the biggest sticking points. Like any behavior it can be trained but as intense as the other obedience training is that we've done the schedule that they use for training the police dogs is intense. They also usually teach other behaviors along with the protection training. Of the 4 regular dogs we use at work only 1 of them is 100% (If you can ever say that about an animal) nice. He is a Belgian Malinois so another herding dog. 2 of the other dogs are labs. One is an old, very, very nasty dog who can't tell good guys from bad and only works for his handler. The other lab is a young dog who is just finishing his training and while he is usually very nice he has moments where he gets cranky. In my opinion, the protection training must be done hand in hand with a professional trainer who will work with you to train your dog and that is IF your dog already has the proper attitude to do that work. Also, you never know if your dog will respond positively to that type of work. Most sheepdogs have a limited attention span and I would hate to see a poor trainer teach them a behavior that you could not control. In all actuality, Ron's suggestion is a good one. Most of the cops at work don't train their dogs to attack but they do teach their dogs to bark like mad which is just as effective a deterrent as attack is. The logic is much the same as owning a gun. If someone is going to break into your house with the intent to harm you it will be very hard to defend yourself because they have the upper hand. You almost have to have the gun inyour hand and cocked and your dog would have to be right there and be given the command. Your best defense is a good offense, don't make yourself a victim. Good lighting and a big dog are a great start!!! Take a self defense class and call an electrician are my advice. Don't rely on someone or something else to protect you. |
| Reference this post for the type of obsessive drive that I was talking about. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=9804
It's not a behavior any of us really want and the trainers need this behavior to channel into their work. |
Maxmm wrote: Take a self defense class and call an electrician are my advice. Oooh! Electrified grates?
That's a great idea; train your dog to SPEAK on command with both "SPEAK!" and "EASY BOY!" commands! A criminal hears a big dog bark and someone yelling commands that sound like they are trying hard to restrain a dog that sonds like he's out of control? MUCH better than an attack poodle anyday.  |
| How about getting a sign in your front yard for a security system? Just a thought |
| I recently looked into the possibility of Schutzhund training with my trainer who has trained dogs and placed schutzhund titles on his dogs. It was my understanding from our conversation that one of the last skills taught and required in the program is that of attack and defense. However he cautioned that even in the best trained dog, if he were to be provoked in an unguarded moment and should attack and bite someone, and it was found out that he had such training, your liability and the dog's existence would be challenged. Up to that point, though, the schutzhund program is a wonderful challenge to the dog. |
| Wow, thanks for all the great replies. I have decided that I will definitely be getting a German Shepherd (or other guard dog breed) sooner than later. Spike is wonderful for barking and it certainly couldn't hurt to have another big dog with a big bark around. The advice regarding the lighting was a good one as well and as soon as I moved here I hired an electrician to install motion detector lighting around the house but apparently evil doing people are not so easily deterred.
I will do more research before getting Spike a new pal, but you all have given me a good place to start. Thanks! |
| Coming late to the discussion with a couple of things to consider:
1. Liability. If you have an attack dog, are you ready to accept the liability should you have the unfortunate need (real or perceived by your dog) for those abilities? This is a serious financial issue for you. 2. What do you want in an animal? I ask because many years ago, my grandparents were robbed at gunpoint in their farm house. They installed a lot of lighting outdoors and got a doby/boxer mix to guard the house. He was unapproachable by anyone except my grandparents, including us grandchildren. As an older kid (9-10 ish) I found it confusing, a bit, not to be allowed to pet this animal, and felt sorry for him. Down side came a few years later when my grandfather passed away and the dog got loose while I was mowing the lawn and grabbed me by the back of the thigh. Fortunately, he didn't quite break skin, and my father and grandmother were near by. But with the lawn mower going, I had no way of hearing him creep up behind me. I was left with some serious bruises all over my thigh. Note: I was at my grandmothers at least once a week since this dog was a puppy, and had been around him often. I wasn't unfamiliar nor was lawn mowing (done by me) unfamiliar to him. He just got loose and took an opportunity. Think carefully: what kind of relationship do you want to have with your dogs? 3. I found my OES's to be very accepting of other people, unless they perceive a threat to our persons. Then, they insist on protecting us by getting between us and the threat. I've found it to be quite adequate. |
| I think these dogs just by size are scarey to some. My dog when she sees other people walking dogs barks like the most rabid crazed dog, but her butt shakes like crazy while she is wagging her stub. She sounds mean enough but what they others dont know is she would lick them to death! But I will say put one hand on any of my kids and she my bite you! |
| My cousin is a professional K9 trainer for Cleveland area police and other law enforcement agencies. He was a cop for many years, and has since retired to open a training facility - People go to him all the time for regular training, and he's had wonderful success with dogs of all sorts; family pets, guard dogs, attack dogs, drug dogs...you name it. he will never EVER train a "family pet" to attack on command. His principal reason:
tgir wrote: 1. Liability. If you have an attack dog, are you ready to accept the liability should you have the unfortunate need (real or perceived by your dog) for those abilities? This is a serious financial issue for you.
In addition to the immense amount of work that the dogs have to do to get to that point, their handlers have to do twice as much. A trained "attack" dog in many areas is considered by law, a lethal weapon., and the trainer has to know exactly how to use it. when, where, why, etc. the handler must also use quick rational judgements (which can be impaired if, say, an intruder was threatening a family member). There is also a very strict code of ethics regarding animals working in those capacities. I guess i'm just saying that there's a lot more to it than "Rover...sick'em" and that's that. I guess I'll agree with others that the bark and sheer size may deter many criminals. If not, I don't know what to suggest...sorry! |
| Ron mentioned the speak command - that may be just the ticket.
I had an incident in our first house where there was an apartment upstairs. There were men up there renovating for the landlord, and didn't know I was home. I could hear them talking, and heard one of them say something about 'lets check out the downstairs apt'. I had taught the speak command, and luckily taught it with a hand command. I tiptoed over and gave the command repeatedly. My dog went crazy barking - and real nasty sounding. The men left for the day! Worked like a charm. That was years ago, and I have taught 'speak' to every dog since - including hand commands. You just never know when that one will come in handy. Plus you can give the command even if you just hear something and aren't sure if it is an intruder. No harm done, the dog won't care! Speak seems to be an easy one to teach too! Shellie |
| Oh that's really good Shellie! What hand gesture do you use for speak? |
| The one you do when you're on the phone with your mother-in-law and
she won't shut up  Or behind my brother's back when he is
telling yet another BS storie. Somehow having taught this several times now, we are able to get a small bark with a small gesture up to a wild bark with lots of hand and face animation. I never really thought about how we did that, but it works for us. Saved me from a couple situations actually, but only that one spooked me. It's great for when people stop me while we are walking and they ask if the dogs are friendly.....I only do it with non-dog people.  (kidding)
Shellie |
| Our hand signal for SPEAK is wagging the finger like you're scolding a child; pointing the index finger and shaking it up and down. |
| but how do you actually get them to bark? or do you just say the command after they're already barking and they'll remember next time? |
| That's exactly how we did it, praise "Good <command>!!"
and giving the <command> while they're speaking, too. So if you want to train "SPEAK" then when they're barking it might go like this: "SPEAK!" "arf" "Good Speak!" With hugs and love... "arf" "Good Speak!" "SPEAK!" "arf" "Good Speak!" Then once you've got the speaking down pat, you can work on "No Speak" lol Tip: "Speak" is easier than "No Speak"
We've been using "Quiet" as well as "No Speak"... when he gets going, neither works perfectly, but usually quiets him down after a few (10 or 15) repetitions.  |
| We taught our two mixes (we had only two dogs a the time) to bark when someone was in the yard... it was almost too easy. When someone was outside we just did the woof-woof to encourage them and rewarded them when they did it. You need the cue- the person- and the reward to signal the proper behavior.
If you find barking is not what you want however, it's difficult to untrain it. Because of business, we thought it was a good idea after we suddenly lost our sheepie-mix to cancer. She was our ultimate security dog. We then had a problem with these two barking at everyone/everything that went by. One would even bark as we sat down at the dinner table just so we would get up to look (there was NOTHING there!). It can be a tough thing to control once taught but with one dog it should be much easier. They don't draw off the other's excitement or the pack instinct. Now when someone comes up to the door, 5 out of 6 bark because they picked up the behavior from the first two we taught. We have a friend that's with the sherriff's department that said no one in their right mind would enter knowing we have 6 dogs so I guess we could do without all the barking when UPS/FedEx/DHL/USPS come
Just my personal view but I'd rather have friendly dogs instead of worrying about a trained guard dog and the liability/responsibility that goes with one. The dog we lost to cancer was excellent protection but I never felt I could let my guard down to allow her to interact with everyday people... but she was not professionally trained for protection. I would think it would require dedicated training and frequent refresher sessions to make sure you had excellent control and reliable recall. One thing to consider is that even with friendly dogs you never really know what they will do if provoked... the most mild mannered dog can become a wolf given the right challenge. I'd make a big deal about trying to control your dog if someone is ever seen on your property again. Allow him to drag you a bit as if you have trouble controlling him. A sheepie without a tail can be a good thing because some people mistakenly believe that a wagging tail is attached to a friendly dog. I'd also add another dog if you can handle and afford one... two are better than one when it comes to security. Jaci |
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