neuter/spay advice needed
Their parents were 80 lbs (mom) and 85 lbs (dad), and healthy. Sherman looks like he's going to be at least as big as his dad. Sophie is on the small side, with a much smaller frame. Earlier, she was having some problems with her bladder: she tended to pee a bit when she slept if she was really tired from a hard day of playing. That seems to be fine now (we had her checked for bladder infections during the bed wetting phase and she was fine). I've read that spaying too early can lead to urinary incontenance, and we are a little more concerned with Sophie than we might otherwise be. My vet doesn't seem to agree that this is a problem. I'd like to avoid her first heat, both to maximize the health benefits of spaying to Sophie and also, frankly to save myself a world of trouble having her in a home with 2 male dogs (Archie is neutered and Sherman will be--just a question of timing). Is 6 months too soon for Sophie? For Sherman, I'm just anxious to do the best for him, healthwise. I want him to get the benefits of neutering, but with the best timing, regarding his physical development.. In some ways, it makes sense to have them done at the same time, just because they will both be quiet for the recovery at the same time and not bother the other (No anticipated problems with Archie letting them recover quietly. He was very good with Merlin in his final weeks, and he's been very good with the puppies). But that's not as big a concern as doing the best for my puppies' long term development and health. Sorry to be so long winded. Advice? |
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| If Sophie has already had minor incontinence problems I would think her risk for more serious problems is much greater. I would go ahead and have your boy neutered at six months, but I would probably wait til after the female's first heat if you are certain you can prevent her from getting pregnant.
The hormonal changes that occur during their first heat are thought to have a lot to do with the strength of the muscles that help her control urination. |
| Funny this one has come up, I would definately go with staceys advice, spaying too early can lead to a higher chance of early incontinence. Especially with the fact you have already had a minor problem in that department already.
If you can put up with the first heat and be very careful while she is in, then let her have that first heat and get it done after that 
The reason I say funny this subject came up is when we were on holidays Brie got sick, vomitting, had to take her to a vet up where we were staying. He asked if she is entire and of course she is, anyhow to cut a long story short, the vet was originally from England and was excited to see the breed again, especially in the small country town he worked at. We discussed lot's of things and he said how the bitches in this breed seem to have a high rate of early incontinence. He said it is a pity that people don't let them have there first heat to ward off this problem later. He asked about my older girl and asked if there was any problems with incontinence in her at 11 and I said no as she was spayed at 6. So all in all a very indepth conversation on bitches in this breed. So if you can and maybe a better long term result for her to be able to let her have her first heat then spay after that just to give her a better chance of no early incontinence problems down the track. |
| I don't mean to hijack this thread, but London was spayed at 8 wks old. Should I be on the watch for any problems as she gets older? This is our first female sheepie all the others have been male. |
If she doesn't have problems now she probably won't  |
Hi Wynette, the only thing you do have to watch is there is a greater chance of early incontinence in a bitch that has been spayed early, not all bitches are affected from early spaying, just a higher risk of it happening. If it does occur a hormone table (Stilbestrol, hope I spelt that right  ) is given to them to help control the incontinence. I suppose you would call it a Hormone replecement therapy and they are treated with it for the rest of their lives.
My old girl last year was on it for 2 years till we lost her, as hers was just old age incontinence, but it is given to young bitches for the same problem if it occurs in them earlier. |
| This came up today on a rescue list I am on as someone's spayed bitch is having problems, and was spayed at 4 months. Many breeders, shelters and rescues here do pediatric spays/neuters (8 - 16 weeks old). One shelter has done over 300 of them and has not had any problems at all. Great Dane Rescue also does it all the time.
One place mentioned a figure of 1 out of 100 spayed bitches will have this problem, regardless of the age they are spayed. From what I have researched there is a "slight" chance of an early spay increasing the probability, but risk of worse things happening if it is NOT done early is much higher. |
Bosley's mom wrote: This came up today on a rescue list I am on as someone's spayed bitch is having problems, and was spayed at 4 months. Many breeders, shelters and rescues here do pediatric spays/neuters (8 - 16 weeks old). One shelter has done over 300 of them and has not had any problems at all. Great Dane Rescue also does it all the time.
One place mentioned a figure of 1 out of 100 spayed bitches will have this problem, regardless of the age they are spayed. From what I have researched there is a "slight" chance of an early spay increasing the probability, but risk of worse things happening if it is NOT done early is much higher. I believe those stats are changing, as now that more early spay/neuters are done it IS being reported to vets more. I think the shelters that do them are just not necessarily hearing about it. Also, it happens much more often with OES than other breeds. I'm not sure why that is in particular. |
| That is exactly what this vet told me stacey, very common in OES bitches from early spaying for some unknown reason.
He said in England he found this problem to be very common in the breed in the bitches. That is why he brought the discussion up with me as he knew the breed well and had a lot to do with them when in England. 
Even if a bitch is around 4,5 or 6 and starts leaking, this is still classed as early incontinence. Having them spayed very early and no problems in the water works department after does not necessarily mean the problem will not crop up later as they get older, so just be aware that it can happen a few years down the track. 
All this discussion with this vet  and I only took her for a vomitting problem LOL  |
| I just spent about 45 minutes on the internet, reading tons of medical articles. This is what I concluded:
Undisputed-Spaying increases the chance of the dog developing incontenance. Undisputed-The larger the dog the more chance of incontenance after spaying...regardless of the age spayed. Pediatric spays may increase the chance of incontinance. Claims that pediatric spays may increase the chance of incontinance are unfounded, and it is actually the opposite.  |
| Never believe anything you read on the internet, including my advice. |
| Satistics from the internet nicole are not "breed specific" they are generalised across the entire canine population. Mixed breeds and pure breeds.
Pediatric spaying is a must I agree with that entirely, to cut the population of strays and unwanted pregnacies, any shelter or rescue organisations that re-home an entire pup or adult bitch is irresponsible. I have no problems with pediatric spaying and is a must. Breed specific, there is problems showing up with early incontinence in this breed on the bitches who have had very early spaying. Here it is recomended from 6 months onwards in the breed to spay a bitch, it gives them a bit of maturity under there belt before de-sexing. |
| Ron. I don't believe everything I read on the internet, but I pay attantion to published articles written by vets and professionals. But even their reseach could be skewed, and so much is dependant on the criteria.
For example, I found somewhere that mentioned a certain procedure increased the chance of this other undesirable happening. This was bad. But further delving concluded that the the resulting "undesirable" has minimal impact, as opposed to it being fatal without having had the procedure. And this last bit was not very well publicized. You see? What I also find difficult is when the articles are not dated.
lisaoes wrote: Satistics from the internet nicole are not "breed specific" they are generalised across the entire canine population. Mixed breeds and pure breeds.
Breed specific, there is problems showing up with early incontinence in this breed on the bitches who have had very early spaying. Yes. The only thing I could find that referenced breeds was "large breeds" versus "small breeds". lol Can you ask your vet where the specifics of this research can be found? |
| When it comes to breed specifics, experience rules out over research. Breeders who have been in the breed 10, 20, 40, 50 years or more have raised enough dogs to know more about their breed than any vet. Most vets will freely admit that an experienced breeder knows more about their breed's health issues than most vets. |
Quote: When should the operation be done?
The ideal time time to spay is 6 weeks after the start of the first season. A recent large survey of spayed bitches, showed that spaying after the first season caused a lower incidence of incontinence, particularly in certain breeds (eg Old English Sheepdog, Golden Retrievers and Gordon Setters). The incidence of mammary tumours is reduced by spaying before the second season. It is possible to spay bitches at other stages in their cycle - but do discuss this with the vet first. Dogs need not be castrated routinely unless particular problems are encounted such as vagrancy, over-sexed behaviour, or pining when bitches nearby are on heat. They may be castrated at any age and it is always best to discuss your reasons with the vet or Penny Jackson, our behavioural counsellor. It is always best to vaccinate dogs and bitches first against the major dog diseases. For many years it was accepted that bitches should be spayed after their first season. It is now thought, however, that spaying them before this first season, at 4-5 months is simpler and causes no more side effects. In fact, the incidence of mammary (breast) cancer can be reduced. It is always best to vaccinate dogs and bitches first against the major dog diseases. excerpt from http://www.millhousevets.co.uk/faq/dogne.htm |
Willowsprite wrote: Most vets will freely admit that an experienced breeder knows more about their breed's health issues than most vets.
I understand this and I am not disputing the result. I just like to know how this came to be fact. I am interested in knowing where all this scientific data is compiled. Is it 1 breeder who did pediatric spays for 30 years and has discovered this? If so, possibly the lines had something to do with it. Or the particular vet that was used. Or the food that was fed. And is it only in England that this is found? Pediatric spays have been popular for a long time there, but here it is farily knew. Are there many breeders in North America what have compiled the results of pediatric spays? If so, where is it stored? And what are the instances..increased by what percentage? 1% or 10%? And based on who many spays? What about the possible increased chance of incontinence, but a "0" chance of mamaory glad tumours? People still need to weigh the pros and cons of whatver they decide to do. |
| It's not "scientific", it's just the general concensus of most of those who are familiar with the breed. |
| Another link referring to oes
http://www.ovg.co.uk/bitch_spay.html |
| Thanks everyone. I guess the decision is clear as mud, huh?
Still mulling it over. Sigh. |
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