Fighting Wolves
At the dog park recently this old man started showing up with a wolf hybrid. A very sad story which I was familiar with called the Topaz Creek Dogs. 58 dogs, wolfs or wolf hybrids were found chained to trees (one foot chains) up in Northern BC. The conditions described were atrocious and many of the females had given birth to pups while still chained to trees. The man fed the dogs by throwing scraps on the ground, leaving buckets of green water they could barely reach ...very sad story. His was the worst form of a puppy mill. Back to the story: This man had adopted one of the puppies and Radar is now one years old. Unfortunately I have seen him start to display agressive tendencies towards Merlin. He's had his dog since he was aprox 10 wks old but just shows you when you think you may know an animal and not familiar with his genetic background situations may arise months or years later. I was at the dogpark yesterday and the woman beside me noticed that Merlin had stopped playing and immediately sat between us. This is unusual behavior for Merlin as he is always on the go and plays with the other dogs. Suddenly Rader attacked him. They race around and I'm trying to catch up, Merlin is yelping and the other dog/wolf is trying to get a grasp on his throat. I don't remember exactly how it occurred but suddenly I have Merlin and someone mentions there is blood. My poor boy had a cut on his nose and it's bleeding! Someone runs for a first aid kit and I wash off his nose and managed to stop the bleeding. The other fellow leashed his dog and instead of leaving takes his dog for a walk around the trail. I was too busy with Merlin to notice what he was doing but was informed by the others at the park. Then he lets his dog go again and he goes after Merlin again!!!!!!!!!! I was like Mama bear (a stupid one I admit) as I literally got on top of Merlin and as loud as I could scream said NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to the dog/wolf. The man leashed his dog again. Okay I admit what I did was probably stupid but I was furious and was not going to let this dog attack Merlin again. In situations that have arisen like this ..it's become common knowledge that if your dog does something unacceptable at the park you take them home. The man made no effort to leave and as I had Panda there as well, I felt we should just go home. I'm upset that the man didn't apologize nor make an effort to see how Merlin was and he should have been the one to leave. Grrrr!! Well the only positive thing about this whole unfortunate situation is I did see first hand ...no wolves can't grab a sheepie around the throat without getting a mouthfull of hair but they can nick their big noses. 
Marianne |
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| Hi Marianne:
I am so glad that Merlin in ok....in spite of the nick in the nose. You would think that the person who owned the wolf/hybrid would have kept him on the leash after the first incident! And by the way - I don't think that you were acting like "a stupid Mama Bear" when you protected Merlin. If you were... then I am also guilty of the same type of action. In my case, we were passing a construction site and one of the worker's dog (a german shepherd type?) came dashing out and attacked Oliver, the dog I was walking - which just happened to be my fathers 10 year old, 135 pound irish setter mix. I didn't drop the leash fast enough but I did scream out in an extremely loud voice...just like you. Fortunately Oliver had much faster reflexes than me and resolved the situation in his favor quickly. But all in all, it was still a emotional situation. And like your situation - the dog's owner did not even come over to check out that everything was ok or to apologize. Perhaps the two men are related? Nahhh...couldn't be that - we are on opposite sides of the continent. And it is good to know that the fur around our sheepie's neck will protect them. Although I hope that I never have to find that out personally! |
| I am sorry to hear aboout this situation and glad that Merlin is alright.
I am angry for you and I hope that you and the other people address this person and tell him that his dog is not welcomed at the dog park unleashed because of his obvious behavior. I hate when people think that their dog's aggression is no big deal and are so inconsiderate that they do not take responsibility for their dog's actions. Sorry to be so frustrated but I just experienced a similiar situation, not as extreme, but another ignorant dog owner. This woman in our neighborhood has 3yr female OES. Her OES seemed to get along fine with my old OES, I am sure because he was a calm senior. With puppy Frank, everytime this female is around him she is very aggressive. I told her last time that this happened that I guess her dog and the pup are not going to be friends. Don't you know that she walked her dog down the sidewalk again yesterday and as soon as she saw Frank, unleashed her dog and let her run over to him. Again the aggressive biting behavior. I finally had to take the firm approach instead of just a "hint" that I did not want her to let her dog near him. I know that she thinks it is cute that 2 OES's are together, but REALLY it is very RUDE and has a such a bad potential. Marianne, I hope you can talk to this person before something bad happens. |
| Marianne,
How terrifying for both you and Merlin. You were very brave to stand up to the dog when he came back after Merlin. I am glad you are both okay. Please try to say something to this man if he comes again. You have every right to be there with dogs who do not attack other dogs, he does not. Can you say, "Your dog injured my dog last time they were both here. I think these dogs need to be apart. I will keep my dogs away from your dog and I must ask you to do the same." Also, please consider reporting this dog to the local authorities. A dog with a scary genetic background and an unconcerned owner could cause a lot more damage than a bite on the nose. Give Merlin a big kiss on his injured nose from me. |
| Thanks everyone for listening to me vent and I agree with you all. Just like some of you experienced, it's not pleasant to have your dog attacked by another. At the dog park for some inexplicable reason or maybe there is one..spring time? sexual maturity? many of the dogs whom were really sociable have picked fights with others. The owners finally clued in..if they misbehave you take them home immediately and let them know it's not acceptable.
While I was a bit peeved at this man for not taking Radar home I'm also sympathetic to his plight. At the same time I will let him know that to teach Radar proper behavior at the dog park he has to take the initiative to leave the park the next time his dog shows any signs of aggression. (I'll be bringing heavy duty gloves too.) I guess I'm a bit of a softie as this old man adopted one of the Topaz Creek pups from one of the rescue centers when the story hit the news. All but 2 of the original 58 dogs were put down as they were all deemed to be too aggressive having led the life tied to trees in the middle of nowhere. For seven months after their rescue and "held" in custody at the SPCA many pups were born in the intrim. No one wanted this particular pup as he has only one eye...the other is quite ghastly to look at. So..I am a bit hesitant to really get upset at this man as he rescued a dog no one else wanted at the time. Sound familiar? It's just that he's a bit too passive with his dog. I do have a concern that with Radar's background and showing aggressive tendencies (only towards Merlin and no other dogs so far), I will ask him that he leave before his dog attacks Merlin again, before I even enter the gate. I had to take Merlin to the vet today as I noticed his backleg appears to be injured as well. Turns out it's a sprained muscle and the vet thinks he will have a faint thin white scar on his nose. I'm not sure if the muscle injury occurred at that time as I only noticed it later in the evening and he could have done it running around with Panda. No dog park for a week the vet advised as he's supposed to take it easy on that leg..poor Merlin, sniff sniff. I remember seeing Radar follow us right for the fence even as we were crossing the street he seemed intent on getting Merlin. Apparently soon after I left..Keira, Merlin's doggy buddy whom is a Shepherd/Coyote raced for the fence and attacked Radar and apparently it was quite the fight. Now for 7 months I've visited the park several times a day and never witnessed fights ..now all of a sudden many dogs are fighting each other. The people there said it was almost as if Keira was really peeved at Radar for attacking Merlin and let him know it. Jeez a wolf cross fighing a coyote cross. I love visiting the offleash dog park as does Merlin and Panda but it concerns me with all of these fights that have been occuring of late. Usually if a dog wants to be dominate and the other dog resist there is a fight and one dog exposes his belly to say I give up. If that occurs the majority of the time the next time the submissive dog will acknowledge the other one is the boss and will be left alone. I used to think Merlin was Alpha as a pup, but the other dogs socialized him with our daily visits to the park since he was 11 wks old. They would dicipline him and he would kiyi back to me but I ignored it as it was perfectly acceptable for them to let him know proper doggie social behavior. He learned to play with the other dogs and as far as I can see he never displays any dominate behavior towards other dogs , more interested in playing with them all. It may be that Merlin is still an intact male and sometimes neutered ones attack them based on jealousy. He's only entering his ninth month and it's unusual for a dog to attack a puppy but Merlin could also be entering sexual maturity. I have not considered neutering him at this time as both his mom and dad as well as all four sets of grandparents are from a line of Grand Champions. In this case I realize it is important to know the genetic background and both Merlin's parents were chosen to be bred for their gentle dispositions. Sadly Radar didn't have the same luck and it just goes to show you how problems can surface in dogs with questionable backgrounds and especially from a puppymill even tho he's had Radar since 10 wks old. Ahhh long winded as usual. Thanks for listening to my thinking out loud. :O) |
| I can completely understand your compassion for this person. Yes it takes a big heart to take in a rescue dog, and one with a defect at that. I am sure there are many wolf-hybrids with wonderful dispositions but he still has wolf in him and his instinct may be taking over. Look how cautious you are with your rescue(s). He should be the same way.
I also don't know what it is about OES's and other dogs wanting to bite them. My passed OES, Newman had gotten bitten out of the blue 3x's while I had him on leash and someone's dog was running loose. All of the attacks were unprovoked and Newman just stood there and got bitten without fighting back. 2 little dogs & a Dalmation. The Dalmation drew blood. Frank had 2 little dogs show aggression to him on Saturday already. Is it because these dogs can't see there eyes? I know little dogs in general seem to have an inferiority complex but Frank isn't all that big yet. Good luck with your predicament Marianne, I am sure that it will work out and Merlin will be okay. Sorry to hear about his possible scar & I hope his leg heals up well. |
| Hi Marianne:
Hmmm....perhaps you could recommend your trainer to the person with the wolf cross. He may just need a bit of guidance on how to handle his dog when it gets of hand. And, he may not be as lucky as we are to have a great forum where we can ask behaviour questions. Jennifer |
| Reading this posts made me wonder about a lot of things... but first i just want to say that walter also got bit on the nose about 2 weeks ago by a chocolate lab, whos actually his friend... but they are both so rough that they get into little fights every once in a while.
But what I was wondering was, what kind of fights do you guys not tolerate between dogs? what do you guys do or expect someone else to do if your dog either roughs up another dog or gets roughed up? i think we can all agree that radar should have been punished and left the park or been leashed immediately, but what about the smaller fights? i just ask because there have been times where walter has snapped at another dog(never sank teeth or really gotten a dog bad), and if its at work i drag him to a crate for a time out but if its at the dog park i usually just apologize and hurry him along the trail or leash him if he goes back. ive seen walter get roughed up and although i get very mom-like i know that these little fights are a way for dogs to work out their problems., do you guys agree? |
I had never heard that they were "known" for their ability to fight off the wolves. I had only heard of their excellent herding abilities. Guess this is why I am addicted  to the forum, I learn something new everyday. I a glad that all is well and there were no major injuries to you or your baby. |
| Marianne- I'm sorry to hear about the trouble you and Merlin had. Poor pup- must have been frightened half to death. I agree with you saying that the owner should've taken Radar home after he went for Merlin the first time.
Personally, I think it sounds like he had seen his dog do this before- from your report, he didn't seem too shocked. He shouldn't have had Radar off-leash if he knew he had a violent tendancy. Hope Merlin's nose is recovering. Blue has a cut on her's too- she caught it in some barbed wire. Silly puppy. The constant fights with her Jack Russell sister aren't helping it heal either. I was thinking of putting a liquid bandage on her. Anyone have any thoughts as to whether this would be ok for a dog or not? Anyway- Marianne, I just hope you know how sorry we are that Merlin got hurt. I'm not posting this link to conjure sympathy for the wolf-cross. (Afterall, he was only acting as he was bred to- his owner should've been more considerate). I hadn't heard of the Topaz Creek dogs so, when I read your post, I Googled it and I think that you'll understand why I post that link here. http://www.animaladvocates.com/TopazCreekDogs.htm Please be warned- it's very upsetting. |
| My experiences with dog aggression was not playful fighting. It was flat out charging, teeth barred, snarling, end result was a snap or a bite. Except for the Dalmation who just ran out from behind this house and locked onto Newman's skull. Fortunately the dog's family was right behind him and got him off.
I really can't speak for Walter but if he's meeting a dog nose-to-nose on a trail and then just snaps & growls at it for no apparent reason, I see that as a sign of aggression. It's different if they are already playing and one of them gets too rough and the other dog lets him know by a warning bite or growl. Please note that I am only commenting from experiences. |
| Dogs also have to establish where they are in a heirachy and it's sometimes hard for humans to understand. One thing that is almost certainly a precedent to a fight is humping. It's not sexual behavior but a sign of dominance and while some dogs just act fine and don't appear bothered by it, other dogs will turn aggressively on the dog doing the humping. It should never be allowed as it's not cute nor funny as unfortunately most misinformed owners think. A lot of knowledgable people at the park immediately pull their dogs off and let them know it's not acceptable.
One dog that had been at the park for months and was normally sociable attacked Panda on his first day. Panda did the belly flip and the next time the dog left him alone. Panda acknowledged that Bear was Alpha to him. He was only establishing his dominance. The dog that continuously attacks after a dog has done the belly flip or " I give up" is the one I fear the most. Like a person whom kicks others when they are down and don't follow the one punch rule, these dogs are mean and vicious and are not playing by the rules. Even in the wild if a leader is deemed to be too mean by the rest of the pack they will get together and oust him, banishing him. Dogs respect leadership but meaness and viciousness is not tolerated. The two legged people have to keep tabs on their dogs to make sure little growlies and snarls don't turn into full blown fights and have to let their dogs know it's not acceptable. Removing them or time out (owners do not have to chastise as the dog gets the point eventually.) I fight I go home....I fight I go home...I don't fight I stay. In the long run it saves the headache of having a dog that is not good with others as he learns acceptable behavior. Most of us at the dog park have experienced snaps and warnings and do not view the other dogs as "bad". Merlin continously tried to herd one lovable dog named Douley whom got fed up at him one day and snapped at if to say..hey stop doing that when I'm focusing on getting my ball. After that, Merlin always kept his distance and didn't immediately crowd Douley right behind him. Douley and Merlin continue to be buddies, we saw this as normal behavior as siblings in a way. A charging dog is frightening...with no provacation, as these dogs are aggressive and shouldn't be running around loose without their owners control. Yikes, just experienced this today while walking down the street. Scary! |
| I'd like to chime in if I may!
I'm a new dog/OES owner and sometimes I have a hard time telling what is friendly playing and what is too rough. For the most part, since there has never been a full blown fight, I guess all of the playing has been just that, playing. But sometimes things seem to escalate and I pull my dog, Maddy, away just to let the situation cool down. I've been noticing that Maddy's a bit of a bully and as long as there are no dogs bigger than her, she's the alpha. It seems like she's always going after little dogs to play with and this scares me as it always looks like Maddy is being agressive. But there's no barking or growling or anything like that. So I guess this is normal? She's just trying to dominate those dogs that she knows she can dominate, little ones? I also find that I'm constantly appologizing to the other dogs owners. Saying things like, "I'm sorry my dogs picking on your dog". Everyone has always been very nice and understanding, so I guess it really is just play not agression. I've also noticed that MANY dogs (big or small) bark at Maddy. It really doesn't matter what the situation is either, whether it's Puppy class, playtime, at the dog park, walking down the street. I wonder if her appearance scares other dogs? From the responses to this topic, it sounds like other OES owners have experienced the same kinds of things. I wonder if this sort of thing happens to sheepies more often than other breeds? Well thanks for letting me comment! Jen and Maddy |
| I am happy that Merlin in recovering well, but two really important points to make on both hybrids and unaltered males in a no leash common usage area. Point Blank, there is no place for either of them there. A hybrid doesn't start reaching maturity until after its first year, so that is when many of the problem tendencies tend to surface. A Hybrid should never be unleashed in a populated or common usage area. I have two low percentage hybrids (one was a SPCA rescue a "Husky-shepard mix" the mix being the wolf part that I had my vet inform me of) and the other being his companion to deal with his social needs). I would never let either off leash in a dog park. I run with them on desolated mountain roads, but that is about it for the "off leash" time. Neither of my dogs have shown any aggression with the one exception of my friend's unaltered male lab. A major part of the agression was due to the unaltered dog's desire to dominate my altered hybrid. Unaltered males bring out the worst in other male dogs (and females too). I am sure Merlin is a wonderful companion, but unaltered animals (male or female) do not belong off leash in a common usage area.
Radar's owner has a long road ahead of him, I wish him the best of luck, but it sounds that he may need to become more educated on the needs of his dogs and the potential dangers his dog may present to others. Rabies vaccinations have not been proven in hybrids- just one more reason why the should not be allowed to roam freely in a common usage area. I do vaccinate my two munchkins, but I also have been vaccinated against rabies, so no matter what happens I am not at risk of contracting the disease. I do give Radar's owner kudos for the rescue, it is a difficult situation to be in. Chance spent 6 months in a cage prior to my rescuing of him, and we have definately had some difficult moments in the past year. I can empathize. However, all the more reason why Radar does not need to be off the leash. For Merlin, I do urge all dog owners to alter their animals unless they intend to breed them. Also, the best behaved unaltered male can become difficult to handle in a situation where he is around a female in heat. Once agin I hope Merlin has recovered well. Kim |
Marianne wrote: I remember reading long ago (at least 10 years ago) that a Sheepie was the perfect candidate to guard sheep due to their gentle nature and their ability to fight off wolves. The article, as I remembered it mentioned that Sheepdogs had a natural protective instinct and were the perfect dogs for this job. It also helped that with their massive coats, wolves could not get a grasp on their throats. I had the unfortunate experience yesterday to view this firsthand.
I know this is an old post but, actually Marianne, that's exactly what Komondorok are bred to do. They live independently with the flocks, blending in with the sheep. They scare off would be attackers (usually wolves but any other threat as well) by silently springing up from the group and surprising them. The cords protect them from bites and injuries and their size is not only imposing, it makes them strong defenders . Compared to Bear, Clyde is nowhere nearly as well equipped to fight a wolf! I hope I never have to test it, but I'd fear for the wolf if it came down between Bear and it. |
| I have to agree with the guest on some points. If you are not going to breed your dog, please neuter or spay. Intact males do tend to be more aggressive. I have seen this many times. Even the best socialized dogs if intact will have dominance issues. Marianne, I'm sooo sorry this has happened to you and I would have been a mama bear too and jumped into the fray. This man does need to be talked to. It would be a shame if he rescued the dog only to not be able to handle it. I have seen many "smart" people "get rid" of their dog because they are not able or willing to learn how to handle their dogs. |
| Hi,
Wow that is an old post...dated 2004!! At the time Merlin was 8- 9 months of age when this post appeared and I still was undecided to show him or not. I remember doing research and found out that at aprox this age seems a lot of 9 month old pups are "fair game" at dog parks. Remember it's against a dogs code of law to attack a pup, but at 9 months they are like teens and emerging into adulthood. It depends on the breed too as smaller dogs mature faster so may happen at a younger age for them. Other dogs that are lower in the heirachy tend to pick on these dogs in order to get them to remain lower on the heirachy ladder than themselves. Merlin was eventually neutered at 10 months and in retrospect it was a good thing. Although his brother I believe won top honors in Canada, I realized I probably wouldn't follow the show route. Other dogs must have sensed Merlin's emerging dominance and as a result other dogs picked up on this even tho he was still a pup at the time. Many offleash parks have a rule that intact males over a year are not welcome. Sometimes it's not the dog themselves that are not the problem but other dogs will often attack them. Either way, just causes friction at the park and best be avoided. 3 years later..... Merlin still has a faint scar on his nose 
Shortly after I wrote that post, I stopped going to that offleash park even tho it was only 3 blocks from my house and have never been back. The park wasn't that big and there seemed to be a lot of friction in the play area with the dogs. I now visit another one (17 acres of offleash) with Panda who never gets picked on. He's submissive and other dogs sense that too. Jil, yes!!! Komodors would definately be great defenders. I can see Bear saying..."I ain't afraid of no wolves". Marianne |
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