question for Willowsprite...breeding
When you find a stud for breeding, do you pay up front for the services or is this something that gets paid for after the birth of puppies? What makes buying an OES so expensive? In Calgary I priced them out for $1000+. Thanks for explaining this to me in advance. |
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| hello I just had my pupies hips x-rayed using the Penn hip method.His hips were in the 40th percentile wich is not great. I was having him neutered (he did not come from top breeding stock) and wanted to see if he would have problems as an adult.The vet said he was vary close to having average hips for an oes.I was very suprised that only 143 oes have been penn hiped it is much more reliable than just ofa x-rays I just wanted to know if any one else had had it done. or herd of any breeders using this method? |
| Well, I am not yet a breeder, so I don't know if I can give you enough information. I am researching and learning as I go along. Getting hips certified is important in any large breed dog. You want to make sure your bloodlines are clear of any hip displaysia that may be congenital. I have looked into Dancer's pedigree 7 generations back, right back to Sir Lancelot of Barvan, to make sure there are no health problems. The prices for getting hips and eyes certified are different all over. I'm going to have to make a 3 hour drive to get Dancer's hips checked when she's 18 months old, because I don't feel anyone in my area is qualified enough, and most vets put them right out cold for the procedure which I don't like either. I'm going to a vet who is much more careful about anesthetic and the handling of the dog, though he costs twice as much, I think about 400 dollars. I don't know the cost of getting eyes certified.
As for stud arrangements, if you are thinking of breeding I would talk to the breeder you bought your pup from first.... it most likely was sold with a non breeding contract that you will need the breeders permission to lift. The breeder will most likely want to look at the dog and make sure it's turned out to be the best of the best, otherwise it shouldn't be used for breeding. Stud fees vary, sometimes the cost of a pup, or a pup in return, it depends on who you are working with. OES are expensive for many reasons.... for one thing, I think, is to help prevent people from giving up on their pup too easily if things don't go as they thought with housetraining or a chewing habit or a similar undesired behaviour. If someone has paid a lot of money for their pup they are more likely to invest the time and effort as well for proper training and socializing, and the patience to work out any problems along the way. Also, breeders of OES have worked very hard for many generations to ensure their breed is healthy, happy, sound, and beautiful. It takes a lot of money, time and effort to produce the beautiful, healthy dogs who are up to standard, and still have wonderful temperments as they should. To get a championship on a dog can cost a lot. For me to show one weekend cost the entry fees, about 200 over a three day show, plus travelling expenses, food, hotel if necessary, and in my case, daycare for my children, and time off work as well. The cost of even having a dog is quite high, if you want a healthy dog you buy the best food, and make sure it's vaccinations are up to date, and deworming when necessary, and heatworm testing and prevention medication each year, grooming tools and the time to do it, if you happen to run into problems with fleas or ticks, the medication for that is expensive as well. But necessary. A simple flea outbreak can kill an animal if left untreated. If you decide to breed your dog and she can't deliver for some reason, you may lose her, if you can't get to the vet fast enough, and will you be prepared for the thousands of dollars you'll have to spend at the vets if something goes wrong. If she needs a c section the anesthetic that must be used will most likely kill all or most of the puppies in order to save your dog, a horrible experience for you and her. If you're lucky and the pups live are you prepared to bottle feed sometimes expensive formula say 8 or 9 puppies on the hour, you'll barely have time to finish before you have to start again. And during weaning puppies go through a lot of food. A good quality food here in canada is about 60 dollars a bag, and a hungry litter of puppies can go through that in a matter of days. It all comes out too! You'll spend most of your days cleaning bums, faces, and every other part,lol, and keeping them clean helps keep them healthy, and with 8 pupppies pooping 4-8 times a day, that's a lot of poop. Breeding animals is a lot of work. And costs a lot of money to raise them properly. Most breeders will tell you they do it for the love of the breed, to preserve and improve the breed of dog the love. And they'll tell you that though the price of a pup is high, they're happy if they break even. I've wanted to raise OES for years, and the years that I had my first OES made me want to even more, but she wasnt the right dog to breed, though I loved her sooo much. Living with Mickey helped me learn more about the breed, also researching, going to dog shows, talking to breeders. My kids are just now old enough that I have the time to devote to showing Dancer to a championship that I already believe she deserves, and to raising a litter. It was a big decision, but I wasn't going to do it unless I felt I could contribute to the breed, and now I think I am ready. But it took me 14 years to get to that point! LOL |
| By the way, I just realized I hadn't answered your first question. The procedure for x raying hips is not at all pleasant. Most vets do it with the dog completely under anesthetic, and they lay the dog out and tape its knees together and take x rays at various angles while spreading apart the hips to see how much out of the socket they come. Horrible in my opinion. |
| Thanks for all the info, I thought you were the winner at the big dog show. Maybe Westminster, I know the breeder came from Ontario, but didn't go on to win in the herding group.
Anyways, I know I have to do more research on the whole breeding thing, and get the books and prepare, prepare, prepare. I got my dog second hand, so I don't have papers, or any info on her even for vet records. She is young, very healthy and the absolute best dog in the world. Loves everyone and every dog, she is smart. She is very well rounded, no extremes in her personality, very level. I know she can't be showed without papers, but I want to breed her. I want to do everything a breeder of show dogs can do, do all the same testing, and I know I can't ask there price for a puppy. I won't need to reimburse myself for those expenses you mentioned. I just want other people to have the same oportunity to love this breed. I will of course screen potential buyers, because I am aware of the work OES take, and I want them to commit to that. If they can't then I will take the pup back. I also want to pay them back something for spaying or neutering their dog, I know breeders do not do this and I think they should. I will provide a vet check, and first set of shots. Of course have those hips checked. If it fails then she will be spayed. I also know not to breed more than once a year. I've been wanting to do this for a long time as well. Unfortunately I can't pay a breeder that kind of money. It's more like $3000 for a breeding dog, $1000 for a companion. I still have alot of time, my dog is approx 7-8 mths old, hasn't had her first heat cycle yet. |
| I only have one more comment to make on this subject and then I will bite my tongue because you will do what you are going to do anyway. I don't agree with breeding a dog you have no papers on, nor do you even know where she came from. She may be a beautiful wonderful dog, and may look OES but maybe she's not purebred, or even if she is, more importantly, what if there are congenital (inherited) defects in her bloodline that you don't know about. A dog can be certified good or excellent for hips, but that is only phenotype (visible signs of disease) not genotype (carries the disease genetically) What if her mother had a heart problem or was blind? There could be many things behind that dog you have no way to predict healthy puppies. You could be asking for a lot of heartache. Also, what happens if you sell pups that appear healthy, and then say 5 years down the road the dog becomes very ill or even dies and breaks their owners heart after loving and caring for a dog for 5 years. This can happen anyway, but by breeding ethically and carefully reputable breeders will go to any length to ensure this doesn't happen.
It doesn't make your dog any less loveable or wonderful... but OES are one of the few dogs left that aren't being mixed with other breeds or bred hap-hazardly. My suggestion is love and learn with the oes you have now, and maybe when you're ready purchase a breeding quality oes from a reputable breeder who is willing to work with you, for the good of the breed. |
| And please, don't be offended, I have no right to tell you what to do, I'm just stating my opinion, and I can't help that, I love OES so much, I love them exactly as they are, and hate to see anything go wrong with them. |
| I whole-heartedly agree with Willow. As much as you love your dog, you have to respect the breed and work for it's betterment. If you don't have papers, you're missing what's probably the most important item in proving to a prospective buyer that you're ethical and informed.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a dog (OES or otherwise) who did not have a set of papers. If you were selling puppies, it would be on the grounds that they're pedigree and, realistically, you don't know that. Another thing- can puppies of unregistered dams/sires be registered? I don't think they can. Not over here under the IKC anyway. |
| To be registered the dog's parents have to be registered. Even in the US.
I love this forum because we can all have our opinions and state them. I have papers on Abbi with the Argentine Kennel Club, but I spayed her anyways because I knew I couldn't keep up with breeding a dog and the kids and the moves and everything. And I could care less if Abbi had papers. They came with her, part of the deal. But I am not so sure breeders have done that much for the oES over the years. And I am not so sure about breeders breeding only the best of the best? As long as you do not sale the dogs as registered, no harm done. They will not be registered, so their pups cannot be registered for whatever that is worth. If you do everything you say you want to do, I would love to buy a pup from you. I have met breeders with far fewer scruples. But do your homework. Read this forum and others. See what you are getting into. Breeding is not that easy. There's lots of things that could go wrong, and do. BE CAREFUL. And never get offended by something someone says on the forum. They are just people like ourselves, with opinions. I hope you get to really know your dog you love so much. Enjoy her for a couple of years at least and look around. I did not pay even $500 for my dog. There are opportunities that come from time to time, if you are patient. No need to worry about show quality when breeding unregistered dogs. Just make sure both dogs are healthy and good tempered. Make sure you answer all your questions before breeding them. And make sure there are available interested homes. We don't need any more pups in the pounds or on the streets. |
| In my VERY humble opinion, there are bad breeders in every genre of breeding.
Looking for my OES puppy I interviewed everyone from top show dog breeders, to puppy millers, backyard breeders, to brokers, to the "I think my dog is cute and I want to breed more like her" breeders. In the OESCA I found a well known breeder of Ch's who found there was a genetic defect undetected by tests that caused several litters of their puppies to be inflicted with a brain disorder. They are no longer breeding. (obviously) After researching pedigrees, I found OESCA breeders who were breeding cousins (inbreds) and made claims that there was nothing wrong with that as they produced "beautiful OES". I found millers who didn't ask a singe question of me, except my credit card number. CLICK! Backyard breeders with low, low prices and low, low standards of puppies' living conditions. Also a backyard type breeder who sold puppies from 'reputable breeders' that were not good enough to sell as show pets, and ones that the OESCA breeder didn't want to admit to the other members of it being one of theirs. I found this out completely by accident. I was shocked! I also found one woman who thought her dogs were so gorgeous she wanted to breed them. She had two males and two females who live with her and her husband. (They were, however, both AKC dogs) She had no professional titles of her own--was simply an OES lover who wanted to pass the love. She had BOTH parents OFA, DNA certified and provided the certs and all vet records to me via snail mail. She provided me with names of people in my area who had purchased her pups. I saw only one of the dogs in person (although there were two within 45 minutes from me) and it was gorgeous! She had the puppies micro-chipped before selling them. She didn't breed quite once a year as she knew both she and her bitch needed the time to recoup. She also believed that a dog should be just that--a dog, able to live the life of a dog and not laying in a whelping box each year. She also didn't breed unless she knew she had a home for at least 4 pups prior to breeding. She also gave the names of all of the puppy's siblings and new owners along with e-mail addresses, etc, so they could compare notes and progress if they chose. She wasn't very keen on shipping a puppy and I wasn't sure I would want to travel cross country to get one. No other breeder promised all of the same. Before researching and spending tons of money on long distance phone calls talking to all the different kinds of breeders from all over the country ... I never would have thought of buying a puppy from a person like this woman. My feelings have changed in this area. I have now 'acquired' Maggy. She cost me just over $200. Of course this doesn't include all her Vet checks, needed shots, heartworm test and preventative, city dog license, grooming tools, occasional professional grooming, doggy classes, high quality kibble, treats, chews, toys, tags, etc. I am also fortunate to have had a LOT of things she would need such as feeding table, metal crate, plastic crate, collars, leashes, good fence, etc. After all the research I did, I ended up rescuing a Sheepie.  The only thing I know for sure about her is that she was purchased from a 'breeder'. What kind? I have no idea. I also know that she had lived with only one family prior to coming to us. She didn't come with papers as when a dog is relinquished to a pound or shelter in MN, there papers are relinquished also. Thankfully, she is spayed. I don't need a piece of paper to know she's the most valuble Sheepie in my world!
She is also more than I could ever have dreamed of in an OES. Beautiful inside and out. In my very humble opinion, there are almost as many bad 'reputable breeders' as there are puppy millers. If you still chose to breed your girl after all of the responses you get, PLEASE make sure to be the very best at it you can be. I may be booted for this post ... but it is just my honest opinion and observation during my 'Great Puppy Search' that turned into my 'GREAT Sheepie Rescue'! :: DUCKING!! :: |
| To "Guest" :
I truly hope that you will consider joining the forum if you have ANY plans to breed your OES. Not only will you gain TONS of valuble information, meet great people and OES, but if after all you've learned & you still decide to breed--you may gain some future family members if someone wants a pup. *Also - breeding PROPERLY is not a big money maker. You'll most likely come out LOSING money if you do it right. If you truly have a love of the BREED -- this is the place to be. |
grace wrote: I may be booted for this post ... but it is just my honest opinion and observation during my 'Great Puppy Search' that turned into my 'GREAT Sheepie Rescue'!
:: DUCKING!! :: Grace, nothing in this post would warrant getting you booted!  Everyone has had their experiences and has their own opinions - and that's what we are all here for - to share and get other people's views - isn't it??? Never mind, I agree with you!  That's why it's important to research a breeder, get opinions from others, and feel comfortable with YOUR decision! Because after all - it is YOUR decision!
It's like selecting a Physician - you wouldn't want to base your decision solely on the fact that he graduated from the top medical school in the Country - he may have graduated at the bottom of the class! You want to get opinions from others (friends, family, peers, other physicians, nurses, etc.) - and you certainly want to be comfortable with them! And....You wouldn't want someone coming in off the streets -without a Medical degree! - providing your medical care! <VBG>
Sharing your opinion (politely of course) is welcomed by me! (Even if it differs from mine! )
Kristen |
Anonymous wrote: She is young, very healthy and the absolute best dog in the world. Loves everyone and every dog, she is smart. She is very well rounded, no extremes in her personality, very level. I know she can't be showed without papers, but I want to breed her. I want to do everything a breeder of show dogs can do, do all the same testing, and I know I can't ask there price for a puppy. I won't need to reimburse myself for those expenses you mentioned.
I think at 7 or 8 months old - it is WAY too early to determine how "healthy" your dog is. Most of the health concerns would not have been evident yet - hip dysplasia, thyroid disorders, retinal atrophy, juvenile cataracts, etc. You have no way of knowing the "background" of your pup - you can't look back at her line and determine the appropriate stud for her. All of which is critical to ensure healthy (in mind & body) puppies! You are putting your pup at risk as well - it's not all fun and games like they show on "That's My Baby". Dogs can die during birth - emergency C-sections are often required! If you are concerned about the cost of a well-bred OES puppy - wait until you are paying for the care and treatment of 10-12 of them! Prepare yourself to make some tough decisons as well - even with the best care - there can be some problems - birth defects can happen - cleft lips, deafness, blindness, stillborns, etc. Weigh all the risk and costs and see if you still are interested! Good Luck! Kristen |
| I am so THRILLED that we're able to discuss this in such a peaceful manner.
Thanks everybody! |
| It is alot to think about, and I appreciate everyone's opinions. That's why I'm thinking about it now, so I can plan for breeding when she turns 2.
I could NEVER allow myself to breed any dog if I felt she wasn't the absolute best in temperment as well as health. If I do breed her, she will have the best care, and these pups will spend their 8 weeks or more in my house...not out in a kennel with other dogs. They will be raised in a loving home, around the kids, I will socialize them well before they move on. I will make sure the new owners appreciate this breed, and how much work it takes to care for them. I am prepared to live with any pup that can't be placed, I would never dump them off. I brought them in, I will be responsible for them. If I could afford $1000's of dollars for a breeding dog, then I would go that way. I love my dog, she is the only one I have, and she is our baby. It is possible to find out where she came from, it is local, I would just have to dig around. I would love to visit the parents of my dog, and find out her history, it would make me feel better. I just haven't found them yet, but I am looking into it. Believe me there aren't to many OES in our city, so it's hard to find out where they got their dog from. Again I do appreciate everyone's opinion's, if I do go ahead with this, I assure you all health is my #1 concern, and the sire has to be checked as well. I will also make myself available for new owners, to help them with anything. Bye for now. |
| ::exhaling::
Thanks, Kristen! I've been known to eat my sock once in a while when I open my mouth! |
| i would like to know, if you do decide to go thru with this, how it goes...i am also debating the breeding thing and i have the same concerns as everyone else...is my dog good enough to produce the right kind of oes, are her genetics okay, do i want to risk giving a puppy to someone who will turn it over or not love it, will my dog be okay during delivery..so many people frown on having puppies for the sake of making a profit, and yet we got our dogs from those same people...i paid a bundle for my puppy w/akc papers, only to find out she was from a "mill". so what do you do..you want to save them from the pet store/backyard breeders...so its hard all over..i have been thinking pro's and con's for a long time and now molly is 2 1/2...still very unsure for all the reasons mentioned....wheeeww-had a lot on my mind there!! anyway let me know.. |
| Sanvald, I know you must love your dog very much, but if you know that she comes from a mill, even wih ack papers, I wouldn't breed her. If you even consider it, I would have extensive genetic testing done. There are tests available for many genetic abnormalities and disorders now, along with getting hips and eyes checked etc. As someone mentioned, there was a breeder somewhere who had dogs born with a brain disorder, I beleive they were talking about cerebella ataxia. Also, deafness and blindness often run rampant in mills, even if your dog has none of these problems evident, it would be better if you had more information as to what kinds of dogs are behind her bloodlines. Not just what is on papers for a name, but back at least 5- 10 generations, as far as you can go.
Good luck! |
| Well Remy just had her first heat cycle. She should go through 2 more I think. Once she turns 2 I will get her hips certified, and if possible the eyes done as well. I will make sure she up to date on worming and shots, and get the shot that prevents her from making a male sterile. I can't remeber what it is right now, but I was told females can make make males sterile.
I didn't get her from a mill, backyard breeder yes. Actually I found Remy for sale from a couple in my city, that just couldn't keep two big dogs in the house. She came to me very well socialized, relatively groomed. I had some problems with matts and an ear infection to deal with. They were supposed to give me the phone # of her breeder, and still haven't. I'm still watching the papers to see if any OES come available. I want to visit the breeder and meet Remy's parents. If they will be honest with me then I will know if I should expect any future health concerns. As for temperment, I could not have a better dog. She is absolutely perfect. My husband does not like dogs, we've had many different dogs live with us...some from family, fostering, and our own. Remy is the only one he has liked. So I feel confident I have a great all around dog for breeding. I will take my time getting to know a stud for her as well. I will also be providing a pkg of things for each puppy, have the shots done and a vet check. I am also going to be doing a rebate where they get a portion of their money back after I see proof of spay/neuter. I hate seeing all the dogs that end up in a shelter, so I will try my best to screen all potential buyers. OES takes the right kind of person. These will be my puppies first, and one thing to remember is if you make the decision to let your dog have puppies, be prepared to live the rest of your life with all those puppies. You also have to be prepared to face the consequences of a bad delivery, she may need a c-section, you may lose your dog. P.S I was the original one in the post as guest. I forgot to put my username in.  ( oops |
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