Genetically bad temperaments
I got this from [link to a puppy site removed] where the pros and cons of a breed in general is narrated I always thought "temperament" was mostly based on how the puppies were raised by their mother... thus learning the mother's temperament, her vibe, her shyness, her instability... etc. Also I thought it relied heavily on socialization and handling when they are little.... Isn't that why we search for a reputable breeder who socializes/exposes puppies to many things as soon as possible? "Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants see LOTS of Old English Sheepdogs with neurotic behaviors, including biting, sharpness, extreme fearfulness, hyperactivity, and general nastiness." Is this the general "CONS" of an OES?? I know that OES personality vary immensely, often having multiple personalities, but I always believe that early obedience training and handling would always steer the pup in the right direction... No? I don't want to end up with a puppy that will grow up to fearful, hyperactive, and be generally nasty and bite people....  |
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| Yes, I believe that genetically bad temperament can be passed onto puppies if breeding from any breed of dogs that have a bad temperament to start with.
If mom has a great nature then usually not too many problems with the pups, mostly problems happen when pups go to there homes, no proper training from the start, no socialisation, exposing them early to different situations etc. etc.. A lot a temperament problems can start because people see a little black and white fluffy puppy and don't realise they turn into big STRONG dogs. Then the problems begin with there nature too, as they were not trained properly, socialised or under some sort of control as youngsters. They can be very boistrous as youngsters and also they are a late maturing breed so puppydom lasts for awhile. They thrive on human company, they don't do well without it, they are a very social breed, so not included as part of a family life they will turn quite neurotic and have behavioural problems. Also what people forget with them they were originally bred to work all day (Herd), so a well exercised sheepie is a happy sheepie too.  |
| Excellent reply Lisa... I'm not sure there is much I can add to that... it's the old nurture vs nature debate really.
In my opinion, some is nature, but most is nurture. Look at golden retrievers for example. For so many years all we ever heard that was a golden was the most reliable, loyal, easily trained, trustworthy family dog. For the most part they still are, but I think over breeding, because of thier popularity, and greed, has caused many goldens to be born into less than ideal circumstances, causing them to be neurotic, fearful, agressive and generally unsound. I do think how a pup is raised with it's mother and first human family is so very important, but even a pup that comes from an ideal situation may not turn out as hoped if not properly trained, socialized, nurtured, and loved. That is the case with any breed though. I do think most oes are more stable than many other breeds, but I'm biased. |
| On a related note, I've been noticing that in Philly, boxers are being bred to be incredibly compact and muscular -- much smaller and more curvy than the tall, lean style of boxer I was used to seeing (and still see in some older dogs). But I am not sure the owners have caught up with all the extra exercise these muscular dogs require and, perhaps as a result, the boxers I see at my dog park are extremely tightly-wound and frequently aggressive -- nothing like the gentle sweeties I was so fond of. In my area, boxers are becoming the next "bully" breed and I think that is caused, in part, by breeding for muscularity. |
| Lisa has a great answer. Hard to add more.
Another breed to have problems has been St. Bernards. Once the stabile dog, now they are listed on some lists as being aggressive. This is why I like the Great Pyrs. In the breed standard it clearly states the dog is not to be aggressive towards people. Gentle Giants is their nickname. If the breeder is following the standard, then the dogs are bred as much for temperament as for soundness. It's the byb's that can cause so much trouble. One bad breeder can really contaminate a gene pool!!! I remember hearing about 2 of our rescues' breeder being severely bitten by one of her male OES. In talking with others in the area who knew the line, they agreed, all the dogs out of that nasty boy were not to be trusted.......groomers and vets are very skittish about OES in our area thanks to that boy's gene pool contribution. |
| Nature vs Nurture - the old argument! I tend to agree with a combination of both, so definitely genetics plays a role. This is one reason it is so wonderful to know your breeder and to know the parents of your pup. |
| I believe that temperment is largely inherited. A puppy from neurotic or unstable mother or father is much more likely to also be neurotic. This is one of the reasons that puppies from puppy mills are such a bad bet as pets--along with general health concerns and lack of socialization, etc.
A badly raised pup can become nervous and neurotic and unstable, too, even with the best of lineages. A nervous dog can become more stable and calm with a lot of knowledgeable training and the right family. I believe that it is rare, but some dogs are simply born so unstable that they are not safe around most people unless they've had expert training and live with very knowledgeable owners. Some of it can be breed-specific, and sometimes, I think it's just a bad throw in the gene pool. I've run across two extremely agressive puppies that were problems from the beginning. One was a mixed puppy, the other a chow. In both cases, the dogs were re-homed as very young puppies because they were so agressive towards everybody---ie, lunging at faces with a vengence. I'd never seen this behavior in a puppy ever. I think that there definitely is a change in how some breeds behave, according to the planned (or unplanned) breeding/over breeding. As certain dogs become 'fashionable' there is more incentive for puppy mills who breed indescriminately, yielding more unstable dogs. One thing I've noticed is that beagles, the dogs I grew up with--kind of just the generic pet/rabbit dog who was absolutely a hardy, stable peasant, have become nervous and neurotic, or at least the ones I've seen as pets around here. My daughter noticed the same thing with the beagles that came into the vet's where she worked. These are NOT the same dogs I grew up with. |
| "Shedding. Old English Sheepdogs shed a LOT. You'll find hair and fur all over your clothing, upholstery, carpeting, under your furniture, on your countertops -- even in your food. Frequent vacuuming will become a way of life."
This is a quote that is in the original posters site they posted....(Make sense?) Not to change the subject, but I have always heard and so far witnessed, NO shedding, if they are properly groomed.....All you Veteran owners, is this true?  |
| You're right, much of that information is incorrect. A healthy sheepdog should NOT shed like other dogs. |
| YEAH! I'm glad others have put that shedding thing in its place. I have to really tug to get hair out of a sheepdog any time of year. My other breed......LOL!........it comes out by handfuls during the shed. My house dust bunnies look like Maltese.
also, sorry I can't spell "stable"......guess I was thinking about the fuel oil additive....Stabil, LOL! |
| Oh my you guys thank you for the thorough replies.
Then can you answer this please? "Can you tell if a puppy will become a neurotic biting dog with unstable temperament by observing it's behavior?" Since it's a combination of nurture vs. nature I believe it would be safe to assume, if the puppy has a good personality and disposition... the rest will depend on my nurturing.. The reason I'm asking is I really want to rescue an OES, and I asked Kaye if I could rescue any of the puppies she have right now when I move down to Houston... Should I be worried that I don't know the temperament of the mama dog of rescue puppies? Would I be better off rescuing an adult sheepie? Please don't think I'm being mean or selfish, as much as I'd love to help a homeless sheepie.... I don't want to end up with a neurotic one 6-7 years down the road....despite my efforts to provide a satble/healthy enviornment |
| If you are really set on having the best idea possible about how your pup will turn out, it is best to know the lines it came from IMO. I would also suggest meeting the mother and any other canine family possible. See how the mom reacts to people, and her pups, and watch how the pups react to each other.
A rescue can turn out wonderfully, puppy or adult... but it's kind of like cracker jacks. You know there's caramel popcorn and peanuts in there, but there's also a surprise.  |
| BAck in the 70's (yes, there are still of us young enough to remember that time!) the OES was one of the Top dogs..... they were on calendar's etc. About that time was the big surge in breeding them and making money....... the temperments began to get bad.
We have come a long way in breeding out the bad temperment. And any reputable breeder will evaluate this. As has been posted earlier, you can have great temperment mom and dad and if the baby is not raised right there can be problems. Sometimes it just happens also and we don't know the reasons for it. and..... OES don't shed,.... they just create dust bunnies! |
| Would anyone really mind if I removed that link in the Original Post? I don't think that's a very valuable site for us to be promoting. |
| ^^ Oh not at all Ron please remove the link
I just thought the info on that site was so off I don't think Anyone was promoting the site.. |
| I just meant "promoting" as in "giving them a link from oes.org".
I'll let it stay for a bit longer for any other comments before I hack it out  |
| The site is for someone who is selling a book. The site appears to give the impression that this person is so very familiar with so many breeds, so knows so much about them. The fact that it states the OES is a huge shedder and you will find hair everywhere, begs the difference.
Temperament is a result of both the environment and genetics. A dog can come from great parents, but each puppy is genetically different so has different needs. That why there are puppy tests created so you can get an idea on what each puppy needs as far as a home is required. For example you can get a puppy that is quick and responsive and confident. Put it in the wrong home and it can develope into a dog that is defensive and reactive. That is a disaster waiting to happen IN THE WRONG HOME. Yet in the right home for that puppy's needs it can florish. Throw the breed characterisiics in and you can get a better idea on what to expect and then you can plan for how to handle the potential behaviors. But is any case, in order to give your puppy the best possible chance at being an acceptable part of society, it MUST be socialized as a puppy. This window is from birth up to 5 months old. If the breeder is not able to expose the puppy to as many outside stimuli as possible, then the chance of that reduces. The new puppy owner has a smaller window to work with, and so already is fighting upstream. There are several puppy tests you can find on the internet that can at lesst give you an idea on what you should be looking for. |
Bosley's mom wrote: There are several puppy tests you can find on the internet that can at lesst give you an idea on what you should be looking for. How about this one?
http://www.oes.org/html/how_do_i_pick_t ... uppy_.html |
| With rescues, you don't know the dog's line. So it is up to the rescuer to carefuly study the dog over several weeks, better months, to determine the dog's temperament.........and then be honest with the prospective adopter.
My friend here has two sheepdogs from same Chicago breeder. The older bitch is a BARKER....she won't shut up (and the owners refuse to properly train her.....sigh) but the second, younger, bitch, out of the same line is very calm. She watched her cousin's unsocial behavior......but never picked it up. I imagine aggression would be about the same, watching may not cause it to transfer to another dog. s |
SheepieBoss wrote: The older bitch is a BARKER....she won't shut up (and the owners refuse to properly train her.....sigh) but the second, younger, bitch, out of the same line is very calm. s
You know, I have that problem with my Carmela. It could be from a multitude of facets. C's was due to being what we call a 'singleton'. Meaning she was a single puppy. (there were 2 and mom sat on her sister). These pups have a WHOLE DIFFERENT outlook on life. She actually believe's she is talking to you and that is how it is supposed to be done. There is no amount of classes etc that can change this. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with temperment either. This is also the 3rd singleton i have had....... they are just a different 'breed' in their own right. Ali |
| ^^ so interesting about the singletons |
Ali wrote: BAck in the 70's (yes, there are still of us young enough to remember that time!) the OES was one of the Top dogs..... they were on calendar's etc. About that time was the big surge in breeding them and making money....... the temperments began to get bad.
I have to agree with this statement too. I remember being nipped by a mean OES in the early 80's. I also can tell you I've had a few seniors come up to me when seeing our sheepdogs and tell me that they had an OES that was not nice. Same thing happened with the Dalmations which now seem to be getting nicer again. Our dogs' breeder prides herself on temperaments, and all the dogs I have met of hers, all seem to have similar personalities. I also believe that a lot of it has to do with nurturing, but if there is something genetically wired wrong, I can imagine how difficult it would be to raise a dog in a household that is not 100% behind its behavior. |
joanna21 wrote: .......I don't want to end up with a neurotic one 6-7 years down the road....despite my efforts to provide a satble/healthy enviornment
Consider the human gene pool. You have a perfect set of parents with two children. One is an angel, the other a little demon. Why? They're both raised in the same household, by the same parents, under the same guideline, etc....... What is it that sets them apart? It's their personality, their will. As with kids, dogs are just as determined to have things, or do things their way. If anything gets in the way they get grumpy and depending on how they're punished, or how the situation is handled determines how far they'll take it. (Plus the fact that they ARE and HAVE animal instincts) Sometimes its that little "angel" you better be watching. We can only do the "best job we can", but sometimes no matter what we do, it just doesn't seem to make a difference when a person/dog "wants" to go bad. We can only hope we'll never be the one saying, "I NEVER would've thought he/she would do such a thing......" In the blood, nuture, nature, I think its everything combined. jmop mouthypf |
| OK, link removed. Thanks all. |
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