proof of health/history - what's reasonable to ask for?
I am in the process of trying to close a deal with a breeder for a puppy. The price is right $1000, open reg., however it's her first litter and none of the tests have been done and they won't show me registration papers or health papers. I am one state over, so it's difficult. When I asked the owner of the sire for proof she freaked on me stating "why would I need to see papers" and "her reputation is on the line" and the puppy I am about to buy is a steal and it's all fine due to the background (assuming a good lineage means testing never needs to be done). The lineage is good BUT I've read that both the sire and dam should be ofa cert'd, cerf cert'd, and thyroid checked, etc..and proof should be offered of these tests. When I ask, they simply ignore the question or get defensive. I have also found out both the sire and dam are under 2 years old which means they can't be certified hip-wise. But I still think they could be xrayed at a minimum. I am thinking maybe this is why the dog is so cheap. They say she is the pick of the litter, but she is the last one left. They said they would've kept her but have no room. So, am I nuts and paranoid, or do you think I should pass this one up? I am losing sleep over this. I really want the puppy, but I just want to know she is who they say she is, if that makes any sense. Also, she had very good references, but that's all I've seen in writing. She wants me to send $1000 in the mail, she ships the dog and then I pay when I pick her up for the flight. I could lose a lot of money, if I end up getting a 5 year old boxer instead! Thanks in advance for any and all advice, J |
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| First off, welcome to the forum!
I don't think you're nuts at all. Clearly all the red flags that are going off in your head are trying to tell you something. I'll send you a Private Message and see if anyone knows anything about your breeder. |
| I would move on to the next breeder. ...One that is very proud to show you proof of the great results from the testing that has been done on the dogs...Testing costs money, and breeders often put a copy of the results right into a "puppy file" for the new owners, along with the pedigree.
And if the registration is open, and you are not a breeder, then they don't care about their line very much....so thier reputation is not worth that much to them at all. Hard as it would be to do I would just walk away. |
Quote: When I ask, they simply ignore the question or get defensive.
It seems that instead of freaking she should be giving you reasonable assurances. It's your money so you should be able to ask whatever questions you have. If breeding was done right she shouldn't be offended by your questions but rather pleased you are an informed buyer wanting a healthy dog of good temperament. This is why people should be breeding in the first place. If you can't get the answers you want, search for a breeder that meets your requirements and will speak openly. Or, if not for show, get a similar quality from a rescue for a lot less. Personally, I see it as a warning sign but I don't breed so others here can probably tell you more. |
| I think, like with any type of sales transaction, anytime that someone is unwilling to disclose information, I'd be worried. If everything was on the up and up, why wouldn't you jump at the chance to show off how great the dog was? I would not want to work with a breeder that was unwilling to work well with me and answer any questions that I had, particularly if you're thinking about showing. |
| I dont have a show dog, but I can tell you that our breeder gave us copies of Panda's parents lineage and hip certification...I had many questions and called a lot the first month...she was very helpful and patient with me...any breeder that isnt falls under the "scary and run for your life" catagory as far as Im concerned...
Follow your instincts, they are usually right! |
| I agree with the others. The only thing I can think of is that since you said this is her first litter, it means she is unexperienced and may truly feel that it is unusual for someone to be questioning her about the health when she has told you it is fine. In her mind it might mean that you don't believe her when she has already told you it was good.
But, that seems unlikely, and even if it's true, she should be willing to give you all the answers you need. I think I would follow your gut... |
| I think you answered your own question.... RUN! Any ethical breeder would be happy to give you the information you are requesting. There are too many discrepancies in her story. I'd be curious to know if this breeder is a member of the Old English Sheepdog Club of America, which requires all members to sign a Code of Ethics.
http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ Resist the urge to get a puppy immediately. I know how difficult this can be! You want the healthiest puppy with the best temperament that you can get. There are even some very nice purebred puppies in Rescue if you keep an eye on Petfinder.com or various OES rescue groups. If you haven't already gone this route, please contact Tarja Koistila for OESCA breeder referral at oescrazy2@yahoo.com Best of luck, please keep us posted. |
| The sire comes from excellent lineage and the breeder of the sire is 30+ years experience - I found out she breeds and judges. However, she is primarily the one that is most defensive. The owner of the dam is really nice, but just ignores questions about papers or proof of health. I have to say that if I had a litter of pups and I went through all the expense and efforts of DNA testing with great results, I'd have those gold plated, xeroxed or scanned and ready and waiting for prospective new and wonderful homes, so I might have a better chance at finding great homes with good intentions. I mean I would not want to rule out half the buyers, because I was too lazy to provide information to them. I don't know the big deal is. I don't want their personal info - just the dog info. I am wondering if they think I'm going to counterfeit the paper or something. That's why I ask - I mean are these papers (vet papers, certificates, etc.) so ultra private that they are not to be shared or is there some risk of them being stolen? |
| Don't forget that much of that inf is public knowledge. Eye and hip certifdication are all registered with the OFFA... if you puppies potential dam and sire are not on that website, the checks have not been done, and you cannot be sure that those dogs are free from hip and other genetic health issues. The lovely thing about that website is not only can you check hip and other test results on the dam and sire but granddams, great granddams quite a ways down. In fact I was able to look at results 6 generations away on my puppy!!!! Their website is http://www.offa.org/
My breeder also gave me copies of the individual health certifications on the dam and sire on our FIRST meeting, and she had initial hearing and sight screening performed on all the puppies before they left for their new homes, in addition to the regular vaccainations. Please consider using a breeder on Tarja's list... your peace of mind, and your puppies health will thank you for it!!!! |
| Thanks for all the replies. Ideally, I would like to get a show quality puppy to show as a beginner most likely. I was searching for pet quality at first. I suppose it depends what I find ultimately. I rescued 2 long ago, kept one as the female was aggressive towards the male. The rescues on petfinder are usually mixes and all are out of state and you have no idea how old they are for the most part, or their history behavior and healthwise. They often don't want the dogs going to homes with children or other pets too. I have 2 little ones visiting my home, so I really want a dog to socialize with the children etc. young and on. Getting one as an adult can be risky in some ways. Also, my sole rescue effort was interesting and worked out fine. It wasn't for the faint of heart though - I got them pre-neutered, pre-de-flea'd and pre-groomed - no clean up by a rescue group - I was the rescue crew. LOL The one I kept was also rather older than promised. Now, I really want one that I know how long she'll be with me within reason. And also, when you find one on pet finder that is obviously relatively young, good natured, ok to go to a home w/ children and other pets - she/he is snapped up within seconds. |
| The offa.org site is fantastic. I checked - no records. I think also on some registration papers - akc, they include the ofa number too. But I think all this may be due to the fact that the sire and dam are under 2 years. None of those certifications can be given under 2 years I believe. I asked akc if the dogs were registered and they said yes. I'm still not happy with no health papers at all or a simple hip xray. |
Honestly, I would pass on this breeder. Our breeder was so forthcoming with any and all information. No inquiries have been ignored. Even if this is her first litter, I would think they should talk to other OES breeders to get info on what to provide potential puppy parents. Try to be patient ( I know it's hard) and do some more research. You should know everything you can about the new addition to your family.  |
| I definitely would not get a pup from a breeder who seems so unwilling to make sure you are comfortable and informed. |
| I would pass on this breeder, too. If the sire's breeder has 30+ years of experience in breeding and judging, the defensiveness would throw up HUGE red flags for me. What is she trying to hide? And is this the dam's first litter, or the dam's owner's first litter?
There are just TOO many questions here. I agree with the others - run in the opposite direction as fast as you can! |
| It doesn't sound like a very good situation to me, either. Even if the breeder is offended by your question, she would be more likely to show you the documents instead of defending herself without any. Have you tried finding her name on the OESCA breeder directory: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... ectory.htm
If she isn't there, there may be someone in a nearby state who can let you know if they've heard of her before. This way you can get more information from a reliable source without meeting her in person. Good luck - I'm excited for you to get a puppy. |
| I agree that you should pass on this breeder. Part of what you're paying for is a relationship with a breeder who will be there for you for the lifetime of your puppy. She seems like she'll be very difficult to work with.
Look at the OESCA Breeder Directory. There are tons of breeders in Washington, California and Montana and I'm sure you'll be able to find a nice puppy there(and a helpful breeder!). Good luck! |
| I think you should pass. |
| Thanks for everybody's advice. The dog is still not sold, so there must be something wrong. I told her I'd pass. I now have a puppy reserved who's parent's hips have been OFA certified and eyes checked too - both are over 2 years old too. She's only 2 weeks old though so the wait begins. |
Glad to hear you took the time to find another source for a good-quality puppy.  There's nothing more heartbreaking than to take a puppy into your home only to find it has serious health or temperament problems... Getting no assistance or advice from the breeder would just add insult to injury. 
Congratulations!!!  It's going to be really hard to wait till your pup is ready to come home with you but definitely worth the wait!  |
| Good for you! Congrats!
I can't wait to see pics |
| Welcome and how exciting. I think you made the right decision. In my opinion, you should always listen to your gut. |
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