Co-owning your dog with your breeder?
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| I believe Bear's foster mom is doing that with her new OES. I'll find out. |
| I'm not sure of the reasoning behind co-owning a dog with the breeder.
I only thought breeders did it for show purposes just to insure that the purchaser doesn't go out on his/her own and start breeding the dog. I frequently see breeders co-owning dogs in the dog show catalogs. I wouldn't worry much about the breeder thinking they can take the dog back to stud. You paid for the dog & have all the documentation proving that, & unless there is some type of stipulation in a contract, then the dog will be your property. VerveUp |
| There was an article in my local paper about "co-owning" a dog. The owners wanted the dog to be neutered and have a wonderful life with them....the breeders want the dog. I am guessing intact. I hope the owner win. |
| A friend of mine (Jill) co-owns her English Springer Spaniel (Kylee) with the breeder. Kylee lives with Jill full time. She has an agreement with the breeder that she will show her through her championship (which Jill would have done anyway) and the breeder OK's prospective studs or selects the stud when she is ready for breeding. I'm not sure what their arrangement is regarding the future puppies.
Jill benefits by getting an awesome dog that she probably wouldn't have been able to afford otherwise. Kylee has great bloodlines for her breed, and is beautiful and smart.  Jill has Kylee well on her way to her championship, is a therapy dog and doing well in agility as well.
I guess I would recommend that if you enter into a co-ownership agreement that you both have similar goals for the dog, and you are very clear in the contract from the start about every situation you could forsee happening. |
| I co-own sheepdogs with 2 different breeders, I know them well, work in with them they are my Mentors for me and no problems. A stud dog is less of a problem then bitches as he is only there for a mating then home again. Just make sure everything is there on paper in black and white as they say, signed by both you and the breeder and there should be no problems down the track. Come time for anything then you know exactly where you stand as all is on a contract/agreement. So no disputes/hassles.
Make sure you get your ideas/opinions included in some sort of contract as well.  |
| We have decided to show our dog, and because of this our breeder needs to be co-owner for the first two years (or until he gets his Championship). Our breeder is also a jodge, and she will be doing some of the handling. Since she is a judge, she is not allowed to handle dogs other than her own - thus the reason for co-ownership. She is also helping with show expenses which is nice. As soon as our boy gets his Championship we will have full ownership.
I was very leery of this at first and I nearly decided not to show. However, I think it will be beneficial as in our particular situation it is really just for the paperwork. Our pup will live with us full time and will be "ours". It is a lot about your relationship with the breeder and if you trust their judgement enough to take this plunge. Our co-ownership will be clearly stated in the contract. Good luck with your decision - are you planning on showing? |
My husband agreed to a puppy only if I would show him. I'm just a little confused about the co-ownership thing  I'm waiting to see the contract so I'll know more about it. |
| Your husband agreed to a puppy only if you would show him??? Boy, my husband couldn't wait for me to finish showing.
Mop lover, good luck with showing. It's a lot of work but I think you will learn so much! Your breeder is judging up here in Harrisburg, PA mid August. Maxmm will be showing Toby to her, so put in a good word for her, okay??!! |
| That was a good word, Good!
Holly, co-owning with which one, the sire or the dam or both? P.S. Have they sent you pictures yet? I don't think they have a digital camera but one can hope! |
| I'm guessing both, I am waiting for the contract from the sire's breeder. |
| From the last litter it looks like it's just the sire co-owning. There's an example in 9-12 month bitches.
http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... stakes.htm |
| I'm only an hour or so from Harrisburg, do you have they dates? Is it at the Farm Show Arena? Thanks, Kathy |
| Farm Show Complex, Cameron St, Harrisburg. August 11,12,13. No judging schedule yet. We can let you know times when they are published, should be next week.
Need anything else, let us know! |
| Thanks, I'm looking forward to it. Do you know who is sponsoring or is this a local event? |
| Here's a link to the Harrisburg Kennel Club that might give you some more info.
http://www.hkc.org/august_show.htm Hope to see you there! |
| I think it is done to protect the breeder.
When we got Mojo there were several terms. The breeder is considered a co-owner. We are not allow to sell or give him away. His registered name must contain the kennel name at the beginning. And because he was sold as a companion dog, we were required to have him altered. I don't know what other terms would have applied if we had taken a show dog. She has put 25 years into breeding and wants to protect her line. She wouldn't want someone else reselling her pups or mating with just any dog. Her reputation is on the line. |
| Maxmm, Are you showing? We're planning on coming up to the show on Friday morning. We definitely want to be there by 10 when the OES show. I'd like to be there in time to go to the grooming area if allowed. What time would you recommend if indeed this is allowed? I have so much to learn and would just like to watch. I'm excited, this will be my first live show. |
Chauncey wrote: Maxmm, Are you showing? We're planning on coming up to the show on Friday morning. We definitely want to be there by 10 when the OES show. I'd like to be there in time to go to the grooming area if allowed. What time would you recommend if indeed this is allowed? I have so much to learn and would just like to watch. I'm excited, this will be my first live show.
You certainly can go up while they are grooming. Usually for OES breed, they are there 2 hours before show time grooming. The last 15-30 minutes or so before ring time gets a little stressful so it may be hard to chat then. Also, if you go back to the grooming area after they show, there is plenty of time to talk then and the pressure is off. There are a bunch of dogs before OES, so they will probably be on closer to 10:30. You're going to have to kind of look around the arena for Mandy. Most likely she'll be in the main arena off to the side, but the Harrisburg complex is rather huge so ask around. If you find 1 OES person, you can usually ask them if they've seen others if they are not all grouped together. I will be there too on Friday (plus my breeder will be there) so I look forward to meeting you! Plus bring lots of money for shopping!! This is a big show so there should be plenty of vendors! Also, the dog show organizers do a great job with their directions getting you to the complex so you may want to check out this link to help you with the last leg of your trip. http://www.raudogshows.com/Directions/B ... ster_D.htm |
| We will be there, just got back from setting up. Most of the sheepdog people are in the same area so shouldn't be a problem finding us. We are in the middle, on the aisle and should arrive around 8:00 to start grooming.
Verve, it's on the opposite side of the building as the April show, this one's not as big. The signs are up so no problem finding parking and entrance. I also saw where your other people are set up. Lots of sheepdogs entered and it looks like they'll all be there! |
| Hi Bestdog,
There are different reasons for co-owning a dog. It depends what the breeder wants. There are different contracts. The co-ownership might be to allow the breeder to have a litter from the bitch or if it is a dog the breeder might want to use the dog at stud. Or, the breeder might want the dog/bitch to be shown through to its championship title as well as having access to breeding. Usually the dog/bitch will always remain yours. Be sure there is a written contract signed by both yourself and the breeder and make sure you understand exactly what the contract contains. Don't hesitate to ask questions about anything you are not sure about because you can't go back later and say you didn't understand what it meant. A well written contract is in most cases binding. |
| Just checked the date of the first post and I see I'm a bit late with my post. Nevermind I think the advise given here is good. We can always learn about something we haven 't known about before in regard to co-owning dogs and contracts. |
Just thought of something else  Before signing a contract be sure that the puppy becomes yours at some stage in the future, if this is what you want, and that it is included in the contract.
To be honest I wouldn't have anything to do with a contract or the breeder if the dog never became mine 100 percent later on. Just my opinion for what it is worth. |
| I met with a breeder the other day and was expected to sign a co-ownership contract with the following terms:
For a stud; pay a huge sum of money and then meet them geographically 1/2 way between our locations (about 150 miles) to have the dog bred to one of her bitchs, meet them 1/2 way again about a week later to pick him up and then realize no financial benefit from the litter; i.e., she keeps all the puppies and whatever she sells them for. For bitches; pay less than 1/2 then a stud (still, alot), again to provide the dog to mate, and then bring her back again to have puppies in her location, to be kept for 5 weeks and then pick her up at the 1/2 way location. Again, not getting ownership of any puppies or financial gain from their sale. Was told this could happen as many as 3 time!! Has anyone ever heard of a similar arrangement?  |
| Wow. |
| Madeline and I co-own Darcy. Madeline pays for everything. I just buy the food. She does her grooming' vet bills ect. Her first show will be in Sept. she will pick her up and transport her. I can go if I want to'
I guess I am very lucky for her. Deana |
| To Confused,
I certainly wouldn't want that agreement. You might want to look elsewhere, but I wouldn't sign that one. |
| I'm not sure exactly in what context the wording is in the contract you are reviewing, but a lot of well known breeders do have that kind of contract and if you are planning to breed. This is part of the deal, because you are really paying for an established bloodline reputation and for their mentoring.
Below is a standard contract that I am copying verbatim off of the web site from a breeder that had the #2 OES in the US last year. This verbage is only geared toward a show/breeding purchase, not a pet only purchase. Maybe you can go back to the breeder and offer them this agreement if it is suitable for you. 1) If said purchased puppy is a Bitch, Seller agrees to consider producing at least one litter. Seller will approve the Stud used in producing any litter. Seller will be entitled to select (1) puppy from said litter(s) free of charge except actual shipping expenses. 2) If said puppy is a Dog, Buyer agrees to provide stud service free of charge to any Bitch owned or co-owned by the Seller. Buyer agrees to provide stud service to other Bitches only with consultation and agreement of the Seller, and to pay Seller 50% of any fees received. |
| "agrees to consider"???
That's no agreement at all... "Hmmmmm let's see. OK, I've thought about it and... no." |
Ron wrote: "agrees to consider"???
That's no agreement at all... "Hmmmmm let's see. OK, I've thought about it and... no." Yes, strange terminology. The contract is pretty standard among the top breeders in all of the breeds, but I'm sure the relationship between seller & buyer evolves on its own. |
| It actually makes sense because it leaves all rights to the pup's future breeding potential with the (hopefully reputable and experienced) breeder and gives the breeder the leeway to conclude as the pup grows up that it is not actually good breeding stock. Lots of people want their dog to have puppies and a good breeder should be the one to determine whether it is a go or not.
An even stronger contract would give the breeder the right to insist at the later date that the puppy be spayed or neutered if the breeder has concluded that no authorized breedings are going to occur. |
| What didn't make sense to me was the new owner having the right to say no to a breeding of a bitch, phrased as "agrees to consider".
EDIT: OH! My bad! I got the parties mixed up! Good thing I'm not a lawyer. Still strange wording. |
Valerie wrote: An even stronger contract would give the breeder the right to insist at the later date that the puppy be spayed or neutered if the breeder has concluded that no authorized breedings are going to occur.
The info I took from the contract was out of context. There is spay/neuter clause as well as a completely different contract for buyers who are only buying the puppy for a pet. They are required to send the breeder back a spay/neuter certificate. When we got Rebecca, she was 5 and was intended to be a breeding bitch. Unfortunately she was never able to conceive. With that said, I still had to send a copy of the spay certificate to her breeder (which is not my own breeder) because he seriously documents every puppy he has. Ron, the new owner should have a right to say no to breeding, even though it is strongly urged if the bitch or dog is of great caliber and is healthy. |
Confused wrote: I met with a breeder the other day and was expected to sign a co-ownership contract with the following terms:
For a stud; pay a huge sum of money and then meet them geographically 1/2 way between our locations (about 150 miles) to have the dog bred to one of her bitchs, meet them 1/2 way again about a week later to pick him up and then realize no financial benefit from the litter; i.e., she keeps all the puppies and whatever she sells them for. For bitches; pay less than 1/2 then a stud (still, alot), again to provide the dog to mate, and then bring her back again to have puppies in her location, to be kept for 5 weeks and then pick her up at the 1/2 way location. Again, not getting ownership of any puppies or financial gain from their sale. Was told this could happen as many as 3 time!! Has anyone ever heard of a similar arrangement? Personally, I wouldn't want that agreement. I see how it can benefit the breeder, but the above sounds all about the money when you have to give all the puppies away and put your dog through that. anyway, that's my opinion. |
VerveUp wrote: Valerie wrote: An even stronger contract would give the breeder the right to insist at the later date that the puppy be spayed or neutered if the breeder has concluded that no authorized breedings are going to occur. The info I took from the contract was out of context. There is spay/neuter clause as well as a completely different contract for buyers who are only buying the puppy for a pet. They are required to send the breeder back a spay/neuter certificate.. I understand that. What I meant was that even for a potential show / breeding quality dog sale, a breeder should think about adding a provision requiring spay/neuter if the pup grows up and turns out not to be good breeding material. Basically, if the breeder is going to say no to setting up potential matches, he or she might also want to make sure that the new owner is not going off on independently to set up unauthorized breedings. |
Valerie wrote: Basically, if the breeder is going to say no to setting up potential matches, he or she might also want to make sure that the new owner is not going off on independently to set up unauthorized breedings.
Before my girls are ever sold, the new owner and I have to have had the understand that i have a future plan for my breedings and bloodlines. I have thought out many years in advance of where i want them to be bred. Hopefully whomever I have decided upon, they will agree to help. I don't just go to the stud of the moment. Toomany are doing this , and our gene pool is going to be depleted again and we will be in more health problems. There are some breeders that take back whole litters, some that when taking picks take 1,3,5 etc. others 2,4,6 etc. I have personally come to the conclusion that if you have a girl from me, and we have a breeding or so in the contract, i will not take 1st pick if YOU have been the one to do all the work and whelp the litter and do all the work. The person that does this is the one to become attached to certain pups. I think it causes some hard feelings etc. over the contracts etc. Contracts are hard things......... it seems like a lot (IMO) of the old tymer breeders just want to keep getting more and more puppies back and farming out the breeding portion...... their kennel names just keep going on........ as they take back more and more puppies...... this litter has taught me a lot of lessons. some good some not so good. They are adorable, i'll give you that. But I am tired. I will tell you that also! And i have 2 young boys helping...... we are worn out here...... and we still have 4 more weeks to go! |
| I co-owned a bearded collie bitch with the breeder; the breeder showed her and took care of all show expenses; she obtained her championship and we tried one unsuccessful breeding -- chose not to breed her again, and this was a decision left up to me entirely -- so in this case, the breeder did not get much back on her investment other than a title. Would I do this again? No -- it isn't worth much to the nonbreeder and can turn out badly for the breeder as well. |
Priscilla wrote: I co-owned a bearded collie bitch with the breeder; the breeder showed her and took care of all show expenses; she obtained her championship and we tried one unsuccessful breeding -- chose not to breed her again, and this was a decision left up to me entirely -- so in this case, the breeder did not get much back on her investment other than a title. Would I do this again? No -- it isn't worth much to the nonbreeder and can turn out badly for the breeder as well.
I co-own most of my dogs and I like it that way. It's a partnership - with the co-ownerships comes decades of experience and knowledge. That said, we also co-bred a litter and may do so again some day. I don't like the idea of flying solo when it comes to breeding, but I do like the opportunity to breed for what I want in my next dog, so this works for me. Every situation is different. These days, with tiny limit-laws and everything else legislatively thrown at breeders to make it as difficult as possible to have a worthwhile breeding program, many breeders really need to place even some of their very best dogs with people who will work with them in terms of their breeding goals. I've gotten dogs of a caliber I probably wouldn't otherwise have been able to get, and, frankly, they've been given to me, just with certain strings attached. You have to understand what those obligations entail and feel comfortable with them. I've never had a contract, just a verbal agreement and an understanding that we each have to respect each other's priorities and feelings. It's not that we've never argued (!!! ), but when all is said and done we've been able to work it out so that we're both OK with our mutual decisions.
That said, it isn't for everyone. It has to be a breeder you feel very comfortable with and whom you trust. And if you have no interest in breeding and showing and feel these things will just interfer with your enjoyment of your dog, it's probably better to buy a nice pet quality puppy on a spay/neuter contract and be done with it. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: I co-own most of my dogs and I like it that way. It's a partnership - with the co-ownerships comes decades of experience and knowledge. That said, we also co-bred a litter and may do so again some day. I don't like the idea of flying solo when it comes to breeding, but I do like the opportunity to breed for what I want in my next dog, so this works for me. Every situation is different.
Kristine I co-own all my dogs with my mentor. When we place a dog in a show home it is co-owned . This is because we feel this is a dog that we have future plans for as far as finishing it's championship & furthering our breeding program. We place some dogs that we would love to see in show homes, as companions (sold outright) on spay/neuter contracts simply because we can't house anymore dogs ourselves & can not find additional show homes at the time. Co-ownerships can vary among breeders. So the best thing to do is approach the conversation with an open mind & listen to what they have to offer & then ask lots of questions yourself so you understand the entire situation. Our contracts vary between bitches & dogs & we also have various contract options for our bitches. The one thing I agree with Kristine on for certain is that I feel (even with 24 years expeience in this breed) that I want the expertise, experience & 2nd brain of my mentor when looking at a breeding. And she will often say the same of me (althought I certainly don't feel I know nearly as much as she does!). 2 heads are better than one. I have a girl in a show home in town here. The owners love the situation. When people say to them "WHY would you want a show dog?????? I've heard such horror stories about them, dog shows & the breeders!" Their answer has been "WHY wouldn't we? We have a beautiful dog that gets groomed weekly. When she needs a bath she gets a bath. When she needs trimmed she gets trimmed. She goes to training class on a regular basis. She LOVES going to the shows. And she's only gone maybe 3 days at a time at the most! And other than helping pay for shows, none of this stuff costs of a dime!" It's just something Cathy & I do for people who are willing to give us a show home so we can continue our hobby. My main peice of advise is to listen to what the breeder has to offer as far as a co-ownership goes. Make sure you ask questions. Don't assume anything. And read the contract & ask questions. |
| We co-own our Cooper with the breeder. Her reason is that she once had someone buy a puppy only to turn around and sell it. She chips all her puppies and they are registered to both of us. Apparently there is alot of brokers out there. I think I came into contact with one in my puppy search, but I can't be sure. |
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