BIG problems with a BIG sheepie. needy? stubborness? fear?
Ive had sam now for a little over a month now. I got him from an elderly couple that really didnt DO much with him. He was a home dog who kind of sat around, and not much went on. Before that he had been in another home that i know nothing about, a shelter, and came from a breeder in kentucky. Hes only three, and im only 23, so we go to the park a lot to socialize him, big city activities, and there is just generally more going on in the house here. Overall hes been very adaptable. The fear of loud noises/passing traffic/strangers/dogs in parks, etc have all basically vanished. Hes been doing very well, but in settling in a very large problem is starting to become aparent. Theres been this behavioural problem that i see in many aspects & i need to work on it asap. For starters, Sam is needy, whines whenever hes alone, whines at the door when one of his favorite people leaves, follows people everywhere and never feels ok being alone. Im doing a lot of work on the house this summer, and sometimes when working on things like the hallways, or bringing things in/out he has to be in the kitchen/living room/back room area (plenty of space, its where his bed & food & toys are, its where he usually sits with people, so its not the space that is upsetting him) and he sits at the french doors watching you and waiting, maybe whining, but nothing too terrible. I was moving in boxes of hardwood flooring yesterday and had to shut him in the living room/kitchen. he wasnt happy about this, and he kept kicking at the door until he could get it open. He refused to go back in. I sternly told him. He knew what i was asking. this happens often when he doesnt want to do something youre asking. He just curls his head down and gets really still and refuses to move, becomes COMPLETELY grounded. Hes 97 lbs. So i eventually dragged him in by the collar and he begrudgingly followed. He almost immediatly did it again though, and this time really refused. I dont want to have to drag him in, and i feel like because he definatly knows what im telling him, his refusal could become habitual if i dont solve it. But anyhow, i once again after three mins of sternly telling him to go back in, grabbed his collar. He passivly growled (he will never look at you when hes being bad, he puts his head down) and i SAID something, something "SAM! COME!" in a pretty mean voice he "bit" me, didnt bear down or anything but grabbed my arm with his mouth. I was pretty freaked out, but i knew i couldnt leave him in the hallway after doing this ... there was a trash can and i put it between us because i was kind of scared, and stood there not sure what to do. I basically ended up having to pull him back into the room anyhow. He growled. He seems so passive in general, and eager to please. Its just this weird passive agressive stubborness thing that has happened anytime ive needed him to do something he didnt want to (usually going to a room by himself/sometimes sitting/when he gets a bath.) because he kept getting the double doors open I put him in another room that has a lock on it, along with his bed, water,etc. The door is a french door with glass panes, lots of little 7 by 11 glass panes.. 30 mins later after we finish unloading the flooring my roomate goes to the kitchen and says "uhh, you may want to come here" and i come downstairs to see sam with his rear in the back room, and head/front legs in the kitchen... through the middle of the door... broken glass on the floor. I will give him the benefit of the doubt this time. It was getting ready to storm (thats why we were trying to load in quickly) and he is very afraid of storms. He was also shaken up by what had happened earlier with the confrontation... But geez! all the interior doors to non-bedroom rooms in my house are french glass doors.... I cant put him in any of those rooms anymore for even a few mins with out worring that hes going PUT HIS HEAD THROUGH THEM?? This is really distressing! Luckily he didnt cut himself at all (he is a VERY lucky guy.) Some how we were able to get him out. He felt afraid and went completely limp while we got him out of there, and continued to be limp when we laid him on the floor to check for any injuries... This seems to be his way to deal with fear. It comes across as stubborness, but Im starting to realize its fear based. He is a scardy dog in some ways, but the furthest from a mean or agressive dog. He also sometimes panics when hes afraid, which with his size usually means he starts breaking things (bumping into everything, trying to jump things, running through the house... this is usually with storms, but hes also spazzed out when hes trying to get into/out of a room when he doesnt want to be alone, ive had to kneel down and hold him before because of this.) Im not sure what to do with this. When hes not listening at all, even when he REALLY knows what he shouldnt be doing, and he freezes up what should i do? What should i do about his needyness? His following? Im pretty sure when he lived with the older people they just let him do whatever he wanted, and if he didnt listen they just let him be as he was, but that really doesnt work well here. If im asking him to do something its because i need him to. While i think i understand that hes afraid, if i ask in a nice tone he REALLY doesnt listen when hes being difficult. Im not too worried about the biting thing, though it scared me, I dont think sam would really bite me. It was difficult for me to realize that he really feels scared though, just from some stern verbalization. I dont want to have to be physically rough with him in anyway (dragging him by the collar) but when he literally just shuts down there doesnt seem like there is much else i can do! If anyone has any suggestions or similar situations,or even books/essays to reccomend it would be very helpful. thanks! |
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| Wow - you have a tough situation here. I don't know any good advice for you but I think you're really cool for loving him so much. I hope someone here can help you out. Give Sam a hug from us. |
| I don't have much advice for you other than this: When you are trying to get him to do what he wants and he freezes (and growls) he's NOT BEING PASSIVE, he is in a guarding and warning position. He's telling you if you don't stop he's going to bite. My guess is that if this continues, as he becomes more "comfortable" in his new surroundings, he won't hesitate to bite you if you ignore his warning.
I had a dog that did the very same thing. Is Sam neutered? |
| sam is neutered.
because of the way he is, and the way he behaves, i really truely believe that sam feels threatened by stern verbal communication and feels hes being defensive (or protective as you say) and not aggressive and the growling only happened in that most extreme circumstance, and when i took a bone away another time. so thats why im not too fearful of being bitten, but thats why id like to work on the problem before anymore extreme situations arise. This problem comes up daily in small minor instances of just not listening, and tensing up when told to do anything. i email his old family often to ask about certain things all the time, and while i dont even want to bring this up with them because they would worry (they are very sad about giving him up) when i had previously (casually) mentioned the stubborn behaviour she said : "We never found Sam to be that stubborn, usually his feeling were hurt and he couldn't wait to be in good standing again." he gets very very very sad when he is verbally scolded, and im wondering if he cant tell the difference between a command and being just straight scolded? he is eager to please, and does "apologize" after hes been bad... thats why i feel like if i knew how to deal with this it could be righted. i know the root of this problem definatly lies in that his old owners were his pals, and did not dicipline him, and fostered his bad habits (they said he whines if his food bowl is empty, so just put something in it! things like that to please him that really were not in his demeanors best interest.) |
| I don't have much time right now, but hopefully will be able to come back to this later on.
I think that Sam sounds like a wonderful dog, who as most of the OES's here, loves to be with his people. Yes, he may be a bit needy and lacks confidence, but he does not sound fearful or unpredictable. He is trying to communicate with you that he does not want to be alone, and he is giving you plenty of signals that he is trying to avoid confrontation....looking away is submissive, making himself a dead weight (we all know that one!), than a small growl when you are not listening to him, then the "bite", to let you know he is not happy with the rough handling and physical force you are using. He is doing his best to talk to you, in the only way he can. Please listen to what he is trying to tell you, because he is really trying hard. This has nothing to do with trying to be the alpha or any of that train of thought.This is a scared, uneasy dog who looks to you as the one to be with when he is scared. How flattering to you and that is somethign that you can definitley use to your advantage. Be gentle with him and see things from his point of view. He is bonded with you and every time you push him away he is unhappy, and tried to get back to you. Every time you force him to be alone he gets stressed, so is starting to read the signs. What you want to work on is getting him to be comfortable being by himself. This cannot be forced onto him, but is something that he needs to gradually develope, with lots of short opportunites to be happy and safe by himself. When you were barricading him away as the flooring was being moved there were sights and sounds that probably were frightening him. He was afraid of lots of things before, and got used to them. Now this was a new thing to him, and he needed you near him so that he would feel safe. This is more about how he felt, and why he reacted like he did. I have to run so will come back with how in a pleasant and postive way you can work on getting him more comfortable about being alone, if you are interested. |
| thankyou! i definatly feel that describes the situation perfectly!
and thats why i say i dont feel sam is growling aggressivly but is simply very unhappy about being by himself. I think he lacks confidence. as i said he was afraid of cars/people in parks/other dogs, and by going out enough hes not any longer, but the thing that everyone at the philly sheepie picnic noted: he wouldnt look new people in the eyes, he wouldnt greet new people. hes not socially outgoing. the other day for the first time ever sam ran around the dog park playing with the other dogs, after starting out as totally disinterested and antisocial, so if he can make that kind of movement forward, i feel really confident in saying sam wants to be a good dog, hes so smart, and is extremely loving and kind, just scared. Im looking forward to the advice on how to help with the confidence & becoming comfortable alone. people (either myself or my really great roomates who all love sam as their own family) are generally around almost all the time. often the only time hes really alone is when he has to be closed off while something is being moved/worked on. if the solution needed to involve temporary times alone/something of a controlled enviroment we are around enough to keep up with it. He also has to sleep in my room and by me everynight (the one night i took the bone from him and he growled he had to sleep downstairs, and he cried all night long) so would partial seperations be reccomended ? letting him sleep downstairs sometimes? or does that seem pointlessly paintful? thankyou so much! |
| I agree mostly, but want to reiterate that when he freezes like that he is telling you the next thing will be a bite.
It's quite a thing to be able to control yourself and talk gently and sweetly to your dog while his teeth are buried in your arm or on your hand, but that's what we had to do. If you tried to pull away or yell at him or anything, he would chomp down a few more times then hold again. My dog was always very apologetic after he ate ham off of me, too. Doesn't he look so cute in my avatar? |
| Do you have a crate for him? Thinking this might be a good idea and good place for him when lots of stuff is going on in the house.
Pepsi will pee anytime I grab him by the collar to move him. These leads me to believe that they people that had owned him grabbed him by the neck to punish him. He literally digs in to the spot he is in when I try to move him and then the piddle. So now if I must move him I will attach his leash first. That distracts him because he then thinks he is going for a walk and will get up willingly. I have worried about him snapping at me, but luckily he hasn't...just a little pee. It was also keep my hands away in case he does try to snap. I agree with what Nicole and Ron have said. Talk to him in a calm voice... maybe even offer him a treat. I will only raise my voice to my dogs if they are doing something wrong and I catch them. Other than that I use a matter of fact monitone voice when I want my dogs to do something. Then they get lots of sweet praises when the do as told. |
| crating him would be THE worst thing i could do. for a dog that has never been crated, is afraid to be alone, basically SPAZZES out to the point that he can hurt himself (today during a thunderstorm he skinned his leg a little running into a door frame or something because of this) and gets so freaked out in a room that is probably 9 by 16 (and almost empty aside from his bed & food) that he breaks through the glass door... i dont think any amount of treats or coaxing could make a crate the nice and safe (feeling) place it is for a lot of other dogs.
In dealing with this im hoping to figure out a way to help sam to the point that he doesnt feel so anxious in being seperated, and thus wont have to forcefully seperated... like he could just sleep calmly on the floor while im doing something in another room (which just doesnt happen. he HAS to follow, and when he cant, hes upset.) ive thought about using the leash but that would just be tricking him into the walk idea, and then when i walk him into a room to shut him in there, he would not trust me anymore, and hed still freak out once he was put in the room. I wouldnt want to lie to him that way because he holds grudges and rememers things & it wouldnt work more then a couple times... also, i really want to avoid any band-aid solutions that mask his bad behaviour, and allow it to continue. finding little tricks that change what i need him to do may help in a temporary way, but i really dont want a situation of kneeling so much to his bad habits (the way his last owners did.) if there was something like using treats in certain ways, even when hes being "bad" id be fine with that because id be able to ease off of it, and eventually i wouldnt have to reward him during the bad behaviour because it would stop (SOMEDAY! PLEASE! haha) but putting the leash on him to trick him isnt really something that will lead to a better attitude that is permanent. |
| I'm a big fan of the crate, particularly for a fearful dog, because it represents safety. Even if he resents it at first, they do come to appreciate it. If you had the crate in the same room as you, would that help?
I'm also a big fan of using a leash rather than grabbing a collar. The leash lets them know you are in charge. I would keep it on him whenever you are with him -- that way it is not a trick -- it is just the way things are. I also recommend two books: Jan Fennel the Dog Listener and Brian Kilcommons Good Owner Great Dog. This is going to take time for your sweetie to aclimatize. Perhaps something like doggie daycare would help during times when work on the house is going to be very stressful to him? Another thing you might want to consider is getting a behaviorist to come in and help you with him. Good luck and keep us posted. . . |
| im so scared of doing the wrong thing though, and having him get hurt in the process!
though im really really nervous about crating him (he may hate me for it, or think im punishing him, that i dont want him around!) i put a wanted ad on craigslist for one. im nervous that crating him (even going about it the right way, putting treats in it, making it seem really cool) will do damage to his independence/confidence, making him more needy when hes not in it... |
| Here's how I trained one dog for the crate.
I used the plastic Vari-Kennel type and took the two halves apart, leaving the bottom half only. In that I put in nice bedding. In there is where he'd get treats. Boy oh boy, it wasn't easy getting him to go in for a treat, but eventually he did. Then the lid was added, then the door was added but left open, then the whole shebang. Because he was scheduled for a trip to Hawaii in it, it then moved the crate while he was in it. He did NOT like that, it got him very nervous, and unfortunately there wasn't enough time to solve that issue before his trip. But he got to the point where we left him in with door closed for 1 then 2 then 3 hours (maybe 4?) before his trip, so at least that much was a HUGE stressor on him on that trip day. Still when he made it to Hawaii, he made a wide circle around that crate in his new home! hahaha  |
Nicole gave you some great advice (Ron too). I'm no expert but if Sam likes to be in your room at night could you set up a crate in there? Don't try to force him in, just put some fun stuff that he likes and walk away, leaving the door open. If he goes in don't close the door so he can get out quickly. Maybe Sam will realize he likes it in there and will feel safe. Also, I'm very impressed that you are so willing to not just give up on him  He does sound like a nice kid and is lucky that he found someone able and willing to invest the time it will take. Good luck! |
| Let me first emphasize Ron's mention of the stiffening is right on. The classic signs of a dog that has the potential to bite are a stiffening which may or may not accompany a stare, then showing teeth, growling, a snap then a bite. If a dog has been reprimanded or given a correction for any of these behaviors he learns to skip it and move onto the next one. That is why you must respect what the dog is trying to tell you with the warning signals. I once had to assess a shelter dog that had been given a smack every time he growled. So here was a dog that didn't growl. He gave the stare, then the snap and bite. My hand would have appreciated the growl.
Sam sounds like he has a soft mouth , and that is excellant. My dear, gentle Bosley will use his mouth on my arm if I am too rough with him. No pressure, just his mouth and his eyes that say "please don't do that". Back to Sam, you need to find a way to keep him in a safe spot when required. I use baby gates in the doorways, especially with Dixie who does not yet understand that doors are not for scratching. Although she can clear them from a standing postition when she wants to, they are helpful and may be easier on Sam until you can crate-train him slowly. I love crates, too, but lots of people live without then and manage very well. The first place I start to leave my dog alone is in the bedroom, so that might be a good place for you. Pick a room or area and be consistent with that one place. The bedroom is where they sleep and is already their safe place, so that may be a place to put a baby gate. To reinforce whatever room or area you want to designate as the safe zone you can start feeding him in there, and just stand a few feet away. If it takes some gravy or cooked chicken or whatever to get him eating away from you, so be it. He can be weaned off of it afterwards. Test the distance he needs to be comfortable and stay within that range, while he eats. Increase it slowly every day, and by small increments, always working just within his threshold of tolerance. When you see he is about to be finished eating move a bit closer, so when he is done you are there for him. This can be the way to turn an area into the place he goes when he needs to be away from you. He also needs something to do that he really enjoys, and will take him mind off of you. Kongs are great, and there are some doggy puzzle toys that might keep him interested so you would not be the focus of his attention all the time. If he is busy trying to get some kibble out of a puzzle ball, or chweing on a raw hide or whatever, you can stay around him but move closer and farther away, but always coming back. Remember to reward the behavior you want, so if he is lying down quietly you can walk over and give him a small treat and walk away. Don't say a word. Dixie used to hide under my desk when I was on the computer. Then when she started feeling better she would lay beside my computer, so I would give her a bit of kibble. She no longer goes under my desk, because she gets nothing there. And ignore the behavior you don't want. Any whining or nudging for a pat, or climbing onto your lap gets ignored, or get up and walk away. But keep an eye out for opportunites to reward him for what you want. He will not learn without you showing him, and if he can learn what you want he will do it and not be so stressed. Generally, you want to avoid coddling him, and crooning to him "poor baby" or whatever. Keep your tone upbeat, and matter-of-fact. With a sensitive dog you do not want to use verbal corrections as he will just shut down. If he tries too hard to appease you that's all that he will be thinking of, instead of being comfortable that you are happy with him and he does not NEED to show you how he is just a little worm. Most dog bites happen when the dog is being grabbed by the collar. My dogs don't wear collars, and I manage to move them fine. Carry bits of kibble in your pockets and call him to you often. Everytime he comes to you give him one. You NEVER call him to you and them punish him or correct him. On the other hand if he is following you all around there is no need to reward him...only when he is away from you and you call him to you do you reward him. Alissa's idea of calling him to you with a leash and putting it on him is a good idea. The issue is the timing of it. You can call him to you, put the leash on, give him a treat, then take the leash off and walk away. Do this several times a day. Soemtimes it means a walk, sometimes it means a treat. If you then need to remove him or whatever, just make sure that it happens with a break of about 20 seconds. By that time the relationship is no longer there. I like the idea that someone had about keeping a grooming brush handy. If he gets really clingy take that opportunity to give him a few brushes. I know my dogs will then leave.
And a tired dog is a good dog. He needs some physical and mental excercise so he will be able to relax when he is home. A nice, brisk walk, and some training excercises will help in that area. You are so right in that it just takes one bad experience and he will remember it. Dogs don't hold grudges, per se, but they do have amazing memories for negative experiences. There is a small booklet called "I'll Be Home Soon" by Patricia McConnell that you may want to invest in. Good luck. |
| Great responses! I agree with Bosley's Mom wholeheartedly. She has some excellent recommendations for dealing with Sam's issues. I would reiterate that your tone of voice and general physical bearing when you are around Sam is very important. If you speak excitedly and in a high tone of voice, and use quick movements, you just ramp up the energy in the room. Also, coddling and petting Sam when he's "spazzing out" just serves to reinforce the behavior. Bottom line, as Nicole recommended, reward the behaviors you want to see.
To crate, or not to crate, that is the question! For some dogs, it really works as the crate becomes their surrogate den, and they feel very safe there. I've never crated either sheepie, just used baby gates, but I was fortunate as neither dog was a chewer. Oscar suffers from a tiny smidgen of anxiety when we leave, but we don't make a big deal of our exit or entrance, so he's usually out cold when we return. In addition, we have the exact same routine every time we leave, using the same hand signal to show we will be gone for awhile, so he knows we will be returning. And I would also echo Nicole's comment that a tired puppy tends to get into less trouble, as they just don't have the energy for it! If you have the opportunity to take Sam for walks, it might help build the bond between you, as well as wear him out a bit. Some obedience or agility training might help in that area as well, in order to challenge him mentally and physically. Sam is fortunate to have found someone like you to care for him. Best of luck with him! |
| As a trainer, I feel I need to put in a pitch for some classes. If you can fit them in your schedule, it would help both of you to take a training class. I don't know where you live and what your options are, but they do help.
Check around, talk to people and get some recommendations. If you can't do that, call some schools and ask if you can come observe a class so you can get a feel for the trainer and style. Also I would ask if you can bring your dog. This way you can see how the instructor relates to your dog and his issues. Be prepared to also bring his shot records, or whatever health papers they require of their students. (It is a courtesy to the school and other students who are there with their dogs). Classes will help you form a stronger bond and work as a team. You will also get some tools to work on the less desireable behaviors you are seeing. They also should help you with becoming a good alpha leader who is in tune with their dog. All the TLC and hugging is great, but if your dog doesn't see you as a competant leader, you are not going to see improvement in the behaviors. You need both the trust and respect of your dog. As your dog learns some new behaviors and gets postitive reinforcement from you, his confidence will grow. This is very neccessary for all dogs, and especially so for a fearful, uncertain dog. I hope this doesn't seem too strong, but you need to take some action before you have a crisis with your dog. I can almost feel the building tension in you and your dog's relationship. I also agree with the crate training, or at least some safe room. Some dogs can be overwhelmed by feeling the need to protect and take care of their whole home, and this is something I see frequently. It would be best if he were taught this as a puppy, but he wasn't. It is never too late to teach an old dog new tricks -thank goodness. Please keep us posted on you and Sam's progress! |
| Yes please keep us posted.
I like the idea of gradually introducing the crate, let Sam sleep beside your bed inside it. Have it in the room you are in most. Make your coming and going really boring, no good-byes or hellos. We teach the dogs the words "go to your bed", so they go in on command, no need to grab the collar, and then they get a treat for being inside. Remy also comes to words like "want a treat", and this works if I need to distract her from something outside and I want her inside and she ignoring the word "come". I also use baby gates. Good luck and be careful, watch those signals. Hopefully it doesn't escalate, and you can turn this around. I agree with all the others Sam has no idea how great he has it now, and in time he will know nothing bad will happen he can trust what you are asking of him, it will just take time to undo all the damage that has been done. |
| have you considered getting him a little companion... my oes has a cat and it seems to make it easier for him when i must work... i got a dog from the pound one time and every time i went to work he would chew up doors and stuff i gave him to my mom who has another dog and he has never given her a hard time . an old english is a herd dog and it seems to me that a herd dog lives to be with his herd without us they can be nervouse .and this dog has lost his herd a fiew times . dana and chubs good luck to you both |
| I agree with Bosleys mom, the first point I would like to address is that Sam has only been with you for a few weeks. Although he may be bonding, he will still be unsettled for a while. I have had a few rescues they have ranged from 1 year to 5 years of age when we got them. They each had their own time schedule in regards to feeling secure in our home.
As was stated before, ignore the whining behavior and it will eventually stop. Our Bailey-Boy exhibited the exact same behavior you describe in holding his head down and stiffening up before a bite. I kept a short (18") leash attached to his collar for a while. Whenever I had to move him I would use the leash. This was no trick, he learned that I was boss and that I had the leverage to move him when and where I wanted and my hand was safe from his bite. Ceasar Milan says that dogs resent being grabged by the neck because this is the way a mother disciplines her pups and if they growl or resist it is because they want to be dominant. Sounds reasonable to me. Bailey has also gone through a few screen doors, tearing one clear out of the track. He was terrified of lightening or fireworks. We have a heated, attached garage so that is where we put him when he needs to be confined indoors. It is safe and comfortable for him. We have had him for 6 years now and he barely reacts to the loud noises any more, because we stopped comforting him during such episodes. Not to be mean, but so we were not rewarding his fear based behavior. Dogs follow the pack leader and will reflect your reaction to such things. If you are calm Sam will become calm. Keep loving him and give him some time. He will settle in and learn your rules and soon you will wonder how you ever lived without a Sheepdog in your family. Paula, Maxi and Norman Bailey |
| I have had my rescue for over a year now. He was found in the woods with a pack of dogs. Still to this day, he is still settling in. He is very needy also, but when he is comfortable he can be stubborn. Especially if he does not get what he wants. he will growl if I try to pull him in the house and I jsut let go and leave him outside alone, and that is punishment to him. he still does not like me giving my other sheepie toomuch love, but its getting better. They are both very jealous of each other. If I pet one the other one goes and gets a toy to lure the other one away from me. Its funny.
Both my sheepies have to be with me at all times. If I go out to mow the lawn they both jump on the back door and bark. (They hate the lawn mower). Its tough gettign things done, but if they are not following me around, I miss it. but it is frustrating at time. I think over time it will get easier, just stick with it you are doing a great job,and the end result is soooooo satisfying. |
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