Not an OES issue, really, but...
Background info... Between my roomate and I, we have five dogs. Before we moved in together, I had Blossom, now 10, a dalmatian border collie mix I got from the humane society at 7 years, and Roofus, my OES, but I only had him for about a month before we moved in together. Blossom is dog aggressive but loves puppies, and generally tolerates other dogs if they leave her alone. My roommate, Mickey, had at that time one dog, a now 15 year old beagle whatsit named Murphy. He found her as a stray at 2 years old, pregnant. She has been an only dog until we moved in together almost two years ago. Now, we have added Merlin, Mickey's corgi, and Popper, my beagle cattle dog mix. Merlin is one, Popper is 8 months. The Problem... Blossom and Murphy have never liked each other. ok, no big deal. They're both females, which I believe adds to it, and they were both queen of the roost when we didn't live together. The first six months or so were hell. Murphy kept causing fights with Blossom. She would run over, ears back, obviously looking for a fight, and antagonize Blossom until a fight began. Now, I can understand Murphy wants to be dominant, but Blossom is bigger, younger, and a heck of a lot meaner. Murphy always comes off the worst in a fight. Blossom has pierced her ear clear through numerous times, and I've never seen a fight in which Murphy didn't end up bleeding. Obviously, this is a dangerous situation for Murphy. Last time (which was December, I believe), there was a huge fight because we brought home chinese food and were getting ready to eat. Murphy could not stand that Blossom was so excited, and, well, they fought. Mickey tried to get inbetween the two because they were trying to kill each other - a stupid move on his part, if you want to separate two snarling dogs, two people have to do it, each one grabbing a dog's back legs. Anyhoo, he lifted Blossom up out of snarling Murphy's way - and Murphy lunged at Blossom, caught Mickey instead, and he had Murphy hanging onto his arm as he stood up. As soon as she realized she had Mickey instead of Blossom, she let go and hid in the corner. Mickey, however, had to go to the hospital, and they filed a report that Murphy bit him. Now, there have not been any fights lately... but Murphy just will not leave Blossom alone!! If Blossom shows any signs of happiness or contentment, Murphy runs over growling and Blossom usually just leaves the room... but it's only a matter of time, in my opinion, until Blossom kills murphy. If Blossom plays with any of the puppies, which she loves to do on occassion, especially Roofus, Murphy IMMEDIATELY does a beeline for Blossom, growling and snarling and that's the end of Blossom's playtime. I feel like Blossom is becoming very anxiety ridden, because she already had issues when I got her, and she has separation anxiety to boot. It's a wonder all her hair hasn't fallen out. She starts to have a little fun and immediately is met with snarling resistance. She has to constantly worry if her actions will result in Murphy trying to start something. We've tried correcting Murphy, as soon as we see her eyeing Blossom, before she notices Blossom is playing with another dog, everything. We're at a loss. I felt the need to post this now because Merlin's behavior has changed towards Murphy and I feel like it is connect to the Murphy - Blossom situation. When we let the pack out, Merlin waits for Murphy, and then begins circling her. She can walk freely, but he literally runs circles around her, which irritates her, and she snaps at him, but he's a quick little corgi and just keeps circling. We've had to start letting either Murphy or Merlin out separately because Murphy can't get any peace with Merlin out. I prefer to let Murphy out separately because when Murphy isn't around, the entire pack mentality is different. They are happier, they all play and romp together (yes, even Blossom!)... but when Murphy is in the group, they kind of hesitate to play (they do play a lot though) and in general seem more somber. I'm pretty sure Merlin's behavior is just him being dominant to Murphy (though he is not the alpha dog), but it's driving Murphy, Mickey and I nuts, especially because he barks his high pitched yap the ENTIRE TIME! I'm usually pretty good with dog behavior and training, Roofus is working towards CGC, Popper is well behaved, Blossom is probably the best behaved dog in the house... but I just don't get the Blossom and Murphy thing. I fear there will never be peace in the house until Murphy is gone. I don't want Murphy to be unhappy, but the happiness of four other dogs and two humans seems more important to me. (no we wont ever get rid of her  )
Ideas? Suggestions? Remember Murphy is fifteen years old, has arthritis, getting cataracts (possibly why there have been less fights, I think she is slowly realizing she's not a puppy anymore). And I should add Murphy is very submissive towards people. Just, apparently, not other dogs. Sorry this was so long, but it feels good to get it off my chest.  |
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| First, let me say I'm so glad you felt comfortable to tell what's been going on with your dogs. That's the strong point of this forum is the caring understanding and support you can receive here.
Unfortunately, I have no expertise to offer for you regarding this situation. I would tend to think to contact a trainer right away. I can however, offer you some support. This must be extremely upsetting and worrisome. You seem very intelligent and well versed, so I hope someone else will respond with some good info that you could implement for a solution. It's so sad that the behavior of one is affecting so many. But I'm sure she's a treasured member of your family. Even though she is "naughty". Hang in there. There is always light at the end of the tunnel even in situations that seem hopeless. I'll be sending you positive energy! |
| With everyone so unhappy, having a behaviorist come in seems to be the best option.
The only other option I can see would be to keep Murphy separated from the group - which is not a practical option. You need to be able to enjoy them all. Good luck! |
Hi...the ole saying goes Misery loves company. 
I can really relate to your post as I have had the same situation in my home regarding Panda and Blue for the past two years. Blue is now 17 and he still is jealous of Panda and won't budge an inch in regards to how he views his new brother. The dynamics were that Merlin immediately played with Panda when he arrived. Blue who never paid much attention to Merlin saw his status diminishing in the household and aligned himself with Merlin the alpha. He suddenly made Merlin his best buddy, who immediately rushes over when Blue tries to start an altercation with Panda. On his own Blue would not have the strength to do this as Panda would probably beat him up . Panda does nothing when Merlin comes to stand guard by Blue. It almost reminds me of a kid taunting another kid cause he's got a big brother that will back him up. Thus, now Blue and Merlin rough house daily and Blue occasionally goes in his attack mode when he views Panda trying to join in. I've had to take out Panda seperately so he can enjoy romps and play with other dogs without interference from Blue. I'm exhausted as this means long walks and several trips to the park daily. The only time I take all three is when we go deep into the woods and they walk instead of an open field where they play. On walks there has never been any problems as that's what they do...just explore and walk. They'll even walk along side each other. We've made advances too as at night they all sleep peacefully in the living room as each has claimed a spot as his own. I know Blue's background - the first year of his life he was kept isolated by my neighbor in her backyard. No longer a cute pup, he was rarely seen and didn't have the opportunity to play and socialize with other dogs. He missed a crucial part of his developement which allowed him to view interactions and learn doggie social behaviors. I tried to "borrow" him a few times when I took my previous dog on walks so he did know her. Eventually a year later I found out he'd been taken to a shelter and since I no longer lived in the same neighborhood , I went to adopt him. I wish I was more dog savy back then as I thought he was doing okay as he and Shaggy were very close. It was other dogs that were the problem. Even doggie obedience classes didn't help as the trainer yelled at me during the class to get that stupid barking dog outta there. Looking back on it now, I would have kept trying numerous methods that I now know. Instead I spent years avoiding places where other dogs were and took Shaggy and Blue to isolated areas for walks. I realize now, I should have not avoided those places as slow introductions to other dogs would have helped. I was so embaressed by the trainers reaction in the obedience class that I never attempted more. I learned a valuable lesson as a result..keep trying as not all trainers are good and have methods which you may agree with. Blue is great with females, puppies and cats. It's male dogs that are the problem. He's not an Alpha but quite a wussy as he readily allowed Merlin to take that position but he will not allow Panda to take second place. Here's where the problem lies and sounds as if we are in the same position. Dogs need interaction and socialization much like humans or they end up with almost a piece of a puzzle missing in their lives that will in 99% of all cases result in an abnormality as adults. The cruticial period is said to be around 4 months old. Missing that part - there will be "problems" with socialization in later years. They can and will get better with slow interactions with other canines but may always have some kind of "quirk" in their personality. Your old girl may have had the same situation in the first year of her life as well - lack of socialization with others. Same goes for the other one. It doesn't help either that Blossom and Murphy as with Blue are Panda are the same sex. There appears to be more issues within same sex dogs regarding status. Or it could be this: What normally happens is a dog may want to be Alpha in the household and the other dogs don't challenge them. No problem as there is peace and all the dogs give respect to the the Alpha. With Blossom and Murphy each want to be the Alpha I suspect and neither wants to back down and give an inch to the other. It's the same in my situation with Blue and Panda. I would never consider giving either of them up just like in your case, although most would say that's the easiest solution. Letting them fight it out and having the true Alpha emerge is not an option either. In cases of dog interaction, when there is an instant dislike to another dog they may fight if neither wants to back down. The next time the loser (in dog speak) acknowledges that the winner is the alpha and usually greets them with tail down or belly up position. The position in the heiracy is established. In rare cases the loser still does not back down and there is constant challenge. This doesn't happen frequently and seems like you and I are with dogs that are doing this. Aren't we lucky! I hear so many stories of successful interactions between existing dogs in the household and new siblings ..and wish that had been the case in my household. However, you and I seemed to be blessed with stubborn dogs whom none will back down. I keep trying different things and the only one that seems to work ..is a tired dog is a good dog. Taking them out seperately and allowing them time to just enjoy themselves without the worry of the other one. You mentioned that the last fight was regarding you brought home Chinese Food. Food is a trigger in my household as are toys. Removing the triggers has helped enormously. Takes a bit of getting used to but I remove both Panda and Merlin to other rooms when I'm eating as Blue gets agitated at Panda. That might be a possible solution. I end up feeding them in other rooms, same time as I'm eating. Oh boy am I ever organized. Ready....get set....go....feed dogs...race back get my dinner.
Blue is ancient too just like your girls, Blossom and Murphy and I think he's got to slow down at some point. I think the crankiness of old age has much to do with it too. They are just plain grumpy! The status of your pack will change as it's inevitable - nothing remains static for long periods. With old age and affirmities the younger ones in the pack will emerge as Alpha. Until that happens we can only hold our breath, have patience and rant about it on a forum like this. Wish I could offer more advice but can only nod my head and can relate to your dilemna. Marianne and the boys |
| I think it may be a case of older, grumpier dog.... also, I hate to say it, but often an older animal gets picked on and has to lash out. In a pack an older weaker animal might be killed off, or harrassed and driven off. Even with younger dogs, if one is sick I've heard of other dogs going after it, or at the very least show a strong dislike for it. |
| Thanks for the support, guys.
I also should have mentioned that if the boys are playing, and murphy sees Blossom snoozing nearby, she again will make a beeline for her and try to start stuff. It MUST be Blossom's fault the other dogs are having fun!! Sheesh! It's nice to know there is at least one other person in my shoes. It's been ok introducing the puppies, they all love each other, maul each other... so I think I'd prefer to just get puppies from now on, for my pack situation (I can't imagine ever having less than five ever again!!). It's certainly soured me on females, and I have yet to have an excellent experience with a mixed breed, though everybody keeps telling me they're the best dogs. Sigh. I try.
Contacting a trainer is not really feasible at this point... I do have an excellent behaviorist, but she is expensive out the wazoo and it has been a very difficult period of time monetarily... I had surgery a few months ago and my job doesn't offer health insurance, so you can imagine when you make $8 an hour and own a home how that works out.  Now if they can just hold out for a few more months...
That and my behaviorist and I disagree on a few points... for example, she hated me carrying Roofus like a baby when he was small enough to do so, doesn't like him as a lap dog, little things like that. And if Roofus was aggressive or dominant or antisocial maybe I'd listen to her, but he is *perfect* (i'm biased of course!). But it's really nice to vent in here and I'm glad you all gave a listening ear. I am certain Murphy was alpha dog when we started this venture, and you guys are right, Blossom is alpha too. There can be only one! Which actually is going to change, I think Popper is working his way up the ranks.... And murphy is just a grumpy old dog too. Stubborn, hateful, mean, fat, stinky... but gosh darn she can snuggle! I'll work on Mickey exercising her. He's not quite so diligent as I am about dog care...
thanks again guys !! |
what about having Murphy put away more often when all the dogs are out and then when you have more time try letting him be alone with just a couple dogs, then trade off until it is just Murphy and Blossom alone. Maybe if Murphy and Blossom are alone together for progessively more amount of time, he'll get used to her or more tolerant? Maybe this isn't coming out right... I thought I had a good idea in mind, but now that I'm trying to voice it, it seems less thought thru. I've always been kind of tongue tied - I can always think something clearly but then when I go to say it it comes out wrong!  Anyway, yeah, try having them spend more time just the two of them and then introduce one more at a time, you never know. I'm not an expert or anything, just trying something new. and hey, I have a Merlin too I carried him like a baby when I could too, and he still sits on my lap and cuddles in bed with me - he's my baby |
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