OES Training as a Search and Rescue or Police Dog?
He is about 14 mos. old and was apparently well trained (housebroken and obeys most commands that he understands....I think it may be me and not him when he doesn't seem to understand as he sits and looks at me like: what are you trying to tell me?) We play well together and he is always looking for a new challenge...very athletic and loves to run for miles on end. I am looking at agility and herding training and may consider the first phases of Shutzhund training as this dog has a very high working drive and wants to "just do it". Have any of you heard of OES doing Search and Rescue and Police (just to the point of search and rescue and handler protection training) work? I work in law enforcement and am truly unimpressed with the dogs that we send on search and rescue phases of hurricane recovery etc. and feel that an OES could contribute significantly (if properly trained and managed) to disaster relief efforts which seem to be becoming the norm every summer in Florida. My Vet and trainer where I board him (when I am in training near Tallahassee) think that it is a wonderful idea however, I would like an opinion from those who know the breed best and could give insights as to how to harness the seemless energy of a younger dog. To give an example; I recently awoke to my dog sitting by my bed (with my running shoe in his mouth and dropping it to run at the door and then picking it up again after he barked at me and then pressed his cold nose on my hand several times...we repeated this drill until I got up 15 minutes later!) needless to say, we went for a 5 mile run with him pulling me all the way! This is now par for the course and when it is time to exercise he grabs a piece of athletic gear and stands by the door. When we run my OES must: look in every culvert, chase each cat we see, and look for squirrels ( not to mention try to herd all the kids we meet playing in the street) and has to engage each person we meet in a friendly manner. Before we start on any further obedience training and agility or elementary phase shutzhund training, I would like to find out whether an OES is suited to this type of work. Any ideas? |
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| I don't have much to offer in answer to your questions. Just wanted to welcome you to the forum. Your dog sounds very special. I've found the breed to be very intelligent. |
| Hi 7skydive,
I remember when you first wrote about your amazing boy and how he chose YOU! That story stuck with me and I'm so glad to hear how well you and he are both doing. I'm not an expert either but I can offer some opinion and advice based on some experiences I've had. Here goes and some of this will appear to be rambled as I'm just going to chat about things that came to mind. It's probably going to be long as for some reason I feel particularly chatty this evening as you can see from my previous post. 
All dogs have a superior sense of hearing and smell compared to humans. Bloodhounds have been used usually for search and rescue concerning missing persons because their excessive skin folds near their face (something about them causes their sense of smell to be better) and superior sense of smell even to their other canine buddies is why they were used. I watched a documentary recently on the story of why these dogs were used. The skin folds, shape of their face and short legs all made them best suited for the job. German Shephards are listed in the "Working Dogs" category in the dog world, as they too are well suited for their intelligence and loyalty to their person. You know it's kinda like the old nature vs nurture debate that has been raging for years amongst humans and even dogs. Some claim it's the owners ...yada yada...but in some sense their is a bit of truth in the "nature" arguement as each dog species has genetic dispositions for certain things. For example, Springers are used for hunting as they have the point ( tail sticks straight out when they see a bird) when it comes to birds and have a "soft mouth". Neither of these things are taught by man..it's genetic to that specific dog. A terrier would most likely dig, as for centuries they were used to search and seek out rats. So the certain breeds have predispositions to doing certain things and man by further training enhances that trait. Now to Sheepdogs - in the herding group. No matter how well trained they are..they still have a tendency to herd as that is their genetic predisposition. It's been said that they are hard to train but let me explain the reasoning behind that. Hard to train is not necessarily a bad thing as what it means is: being herders and often working on their own they are extremely intelligent and so thus must be able to think for themselves. It's been said however..once trained..they are remarkable. Shaggy, my previous OES was a pound dog whom had a terrible life until I met her. It took about ayear of continuous work with her and two different obedience classes until she made a turnaround. She became my working partner! For three years Shaggy and I did the Humane Education Society Pet Talks at Schools and Community centers. She knew exactly what it meant when I said "work". Her behavior and demeanor changed when we stepped into a building surrounded by sometimes hundreds of people. Eventually Shaggy also became a therapy dog and she came to work with me as I am a Special Ed teacher. Many things that she did I never taught her..she just seemed to have this disposition for the job. Most trainers of animals recommend you look to see what their natural abilities are and you just ehance them. For example, she nudged balls into childrens hands that were in wheel chairs unlike other children whom she would drop the balls at their feet. I never taught her that ..she just knew. Your boy seems to have an extra ordinary loyalty to you and superior intelligence. (Okay most of us are going to claim that about our dogs ) but some do better in situations than others.
Sheepdogs are affectionately known as Velcro dogs for their absolute adoration of their people. It's also been jokingly said that they would lick a burgler to death rather than ever attack someone. It's why they make natural therapy dogs. The one thing I did think of regarding your post and long runs, is dogs don't sweat like people do and there is a danger of heat exhaustion. Especially in the area you are from when the summer weather heats up. Sheepdogs are used to more quick burst of energy rather than long miles or running. Yes, I realize he wants to go, but you have to be aware that you may need to make him cool down. Long hair, heat and long distance running is not that good a combination. I heard of a very sad story recently of a runner whom always took his dog on long distances and the dog suffered a heart attack due to a dogs lack of sweating. Don't want to scare you..just be aware of this. Again, I'm not an expert on this but you may want to look into this a bit more. Back to police work possibilities. OES would be wonderful to be used to calm victims of crime and those experiencing trauma but I suspect you want to use him for other things. I'm the biggest fan of proving people wrong when they say something can't be done...as I think most things are not impossible. I do have experience with Police type work as before I was a teacher I was a Criminology student and spent a year doing research and going out with various officers for a victims of crime unit. I also used to bug to be taken out to visit the dog training sessions so have a little experience with what goes on there. Out of my three dogs Panda is the dog that I feel completely secure about going deep in the woods with. People often are shocked that I hike deep in the woods alone with my three dogs. The other two are loyal and loving but I have absolutely no doubt Panda would protect me at all cost. He is an example of a dog that would definately not lick a burgler if they entered my home. He too had a history of abuse and I can see he reacts to aggression in people. I've only had the opportunity to view it once. However the other evening I again saw something in him that made me think he doesn't react like other OES I've had. Early in the AM a car pulled up in my neighbors driveway and a youth got out and walked across the street and appeared to be lurking near the bushes. As if sensing something..Panda woke up, woke me up, raced to the window, growled and let out a series of deep successive barks. The youth raced back into the car and they drove away. The other two dogs didn't even budge and were in dreamland bliss, until they heard Panda barking. So again even tho Panda is an OES and very friendly ..his individual personality is unlike that of others I've had. If I was in your position I too would think he'd be great for Police work. Each dog would be evaluated on their merit and sometimes not just on their breed. Hope that gave you some things to think about and good luck to you. Marianne and the boys |
| I agree with everything Marianne said. Also, I saw a show on Dogs with Jobs. They are using dogs to help keep children with sever autism safe. They strap the dog to the child and the dog, like a seeing eye dog, protects the child and keeps them from harm. This is even more challenging for dogs with chidren with sever autism b/c the child may not want to work with the dog and unlike someone blind, the child may want to go towards danger. I think OES would be great for that job. With the right training, herding instinct, sweet nature and the velcro personality, OES's would be perfect! Only the coat upkeep might be a problem!
Good luck with your police training and welcome to the website!! |
| I don't think in ANY way would an OES be better than the breeds most commonly used for this. Intelligence tests show that there are just some dogs more suited to follow commands after being given it the first time and doing it correctly 100% of the time. I think the idea is great and shows what a great owner you are. Dedicating your time to your dog and all. If this was to be done just for fun then I hope for all the success! If you are seriously asking if they are suited for a career in this then the answer is no. |
| I actually did a lot of research into this with one of my dogs. I got mixed reactions from most of the board members of the OESCA. They were helpful but thought that the breed wasn't well suited for the work because it can get repetetive and boaring, 2 things which the OES do not tolerate well.
I did take this a step further and was working with the police dog handlers here at work. We did the testing on my dog that most fit the profile for K9 dogs. They must have a drive, something that they are very focused on, they must have a tireless work ethic and have a hard focus on the handler. (That's a short list of stuff. ) Well, it seemed that the many of the traits that are desireable in K9 dogs are things that I trained my dog not to do! One test was to show them a toy that they have a high drive for and them hide it under an opaque bowl. The dog should realize where the toy went and try to get it without giving up. I can say that he used to do that when he was a pup and I made him stop. Good for my house bad for this kind of training! After all the testing and at home work this breed does not seem to be of the right kind of mindset to do police work. You could always give it a try. There is a story of a dog that they named Coke. She was seized by the Port Authority because drug smugglers had filled her stomach with bags of Cocaine and attempted to send her through the airport to get the drugs to their contact in New York. When the dog became ill after the flight she was rushed to a vet where the cocaine was surgically removed. Last word from a couple of years ago was that the Port Authority was attempting to make her a drug dog but I wasn't able to find any follow up articles. Let us know what you figure out. |
| Not that this is the end all ...but alot of law enforcement and specifically K-9 trainers and handlers that i have spoken to in the last year before purchasing my dog use this list as a reference for dog intelligence...Needless to say Sheepies are waaaayyy down the list. Doesnt make them any less a fun dog.....Just not the sharpest tack in the bunch...
http://www.petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html |
| They are extremely good at rounding people up from all around the world into an internet forum!
Let's see a German Shepherd do that!* * (Ok, don't wirte angry emails and don't post links to GSD sites, it was just written as a humorous comment.) |
| Hi Again,
I still think no matter what anyone says you know your boy best and you see for yourself his enthusiasm and intelligence. I say it wouldn't hurt to try obedience or agility trials and take it from there. I'm still of the school of thought that nothing is 100% not unheard of...and who knows he may have the knack for it. I should also mention that on the same documentary that I viewed the story about the bloodhound, I also saw a police dept using a tiny 4 pound Chihauhau for duties. Now people seeing this tiny little fellow at the station howl with laughter as they joke about his abilities to attack a mean criminal. However, this little dog was trained to sniff out drugs. I wish I could remember where it was that he was working. Anyhow, a Chihuahau isn't the type of dog you'd normally see sniffing out things for drugs..so again never say never unless you've tried. Good luck! Marianne and the boys |
| I think it depends on the individual dog. I agree with Marianne, never say never. Because of the differant training a working dog would receive, I would first want to ask myself if I wanted the "mind set" of my dog changed from pet to worker. You can't have always have the best of two worlds. Then there's the danger involved. Do you want to put your pet into those situations? I would want to make sure the dog was clipped, not kept in full coat. |
| Thank you all for your replies and insights! This website (and the people who answer are so enlightening and just care for you and your dog)!! My dog and I will do some tests in the upcoming days which will detemine his real abilities and aptitudes. As always, my sole thought is not to try to make my OES friend and family member what I think he should be rather, to allow him to be all that he can be. If it is doing search and rescue work than fine and if he is better off as an obedient and loving member of a family then that is just as well. At the end of the day (for me anyways it is about being a good dog owner "read parent" and realizing the potential of your side kick and best friend.
Thanks again! |
| Besides being a good family member and obedient dog, there are many other option for fulfillment of your dog's potential. I have both of mine in training for the various obedience titles awarded by the AKC. It's been a great experience in bonding, working with them both in the commands to earn the Canine Good Citizen award, and now the Companion Dog titles. Next goal is Companion Dog Excellent and Utility if they make it that far. Other great options are Rally and Agility titles, and herding. You can explore these various options by logging in to AKC.com and searching "Obedience". AKC publishes a free 100+ page booklet with full explanation of the obedience titles, judging and trials. And if you've never seen dogs working in one of these trials, take the opportunity to visit an obedience event. It's a wonderful experience.
I never dreamed when I got my first OES (Barney) I'd ever get this involved in training. But its fun and the dogs love it. Regarding my "pm" I'll be with my trainer today at a show and should have his feedback this evening. George |
| That's awesome George! Great Advice too!
A couple years ago I had the opportunity to see Dr, Stanley Coren the author of many books on dog intelligence. He's a professor at a University and bases his intelligence testing on three variables. I'll just add the link which list those three. His book How Dogs Think , is one of the best books I've ever read regarding dog behavior. http://www.petrix.com/dogint/ Marianne and the boys |
| My sheepie is a wonderful companion dog. He wants to go everywhere and do everything and he ussually does with me. He does excellent at training and agility. Sheepdogs are very smart and steady training is best. My dog Darwin was out of control untill i got him involved with structured training and agility classes at a year old. Darwin too cannot at times resist the urge to herd and often nips at people, especially people on any type of wheels. It is important that your sheep know that he can get upset with movement but that he cannot act on this herding instinct.
I would suggest you go forward with the protection or search adn rescue training with your dog. Sheepdogs are very protective or their owners. It seems they feel that they are your partners and everything and everyone in your life must first be approved by them first. You will find more and more every day that though your sheep dog does everything with full effort, in both work and play. They are known to be difficult dogs with a strong will. I have noticed this more and more as my pup has matured. For this you must work even harder. Your dog must know that he will not win with you. You will notice that your dog will only listen to people he respects. He will nto listen to people he knows he can "win" over. Strangers can give Darwin commands until they are blue in the face. He will only truly listen to me because he knows that there is no chance he will win with me. They are vaery smart dogs. Much smarted and intense then any other breed I have ever met. |
| I would say I see no reason why an OES could not do search and rescue. Except maybe the hair which you would probably be best to keep short for "work".
I too am active with obedience and OES are very energetic and actually quite agile on their feet. We did get our CD title from AKC on my first and hope to do so and more this time around. My first OES couldn't really go further thena the CD because of his legs and hips getting bad as he got older. Despite what someone said on this post, OES are very intelligent. People may think they are "not the sharpest" but ha, ha, on them. The dog has outsmarted you into thinking that  Easier to get away with stuff if owner thinks you're dumb 
I say, Sheepies to the rescue! |
| I say go for it if you have the interest and time to commit to the training. Search and Rescue is very intense, and takes a special team of dog and handler.
The people that fostered my rescue basset Simon did search and rescue. The wife's dog was her basset, Belle. She is one of the few S&R bassets in the country! |
| My first OES- Sherlock- was great at agility, pulling a wagon and being read to by children. Rex - my best boy and latest OES- is a wonderful boy at work at the musem (see his picture) mostly laying around and getting pet and also at the day habilitation program my son goes to. Here he meets and greets the folks that are disabled. He has learned to be gentle approaching wheelchairs and people in bed and does everything for a little love and a pet. What better job could anyone ask for. |
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