NEW OWNER, NEED ADVICE!
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| No matter what breed you have, all dogs need time to adjust to their new surroundings. He's probably pacing because he is nervous and excessive water drinking is also a sign of being nervous. He'll eat once he loosens up and relaxes a bit.
It sounds like he could be resource guarding if he reacted when you got near his bowl. Did it happen just as you walked by or did you reach for it? As far as the other biting, a lot of that could be out of fear and nervousness too. You can't trust any dog around your kids, especially unattended. No matter how human like they become, they're still animals and odd things can set them off. Do you know what the situations were when he bit your children? Was it a nip or did it break the skin? Could the kids have done anything to provoke or scare him? A dog in a new place and new surroundings is going to have his defenses up. A lot of our other members will be able to give you better advice but the more info that you can give regarding how the biting occurred, the better. Good luck! |
| HI THERE AND THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE RESPONSE AND ADVICE. MY DAUGHTER WAS ACTUALLY PUTTING FOOD IN THE BOWL WHEN HE BIT HER AND IT DID BREAK THE SKIN AND LEAVE A BRUISE. WE HAVE TOLD THE KIDS TO STAY AWAY FROM HIS FOOD DISH FROM NOW ON. THE OTHER TIME WAS ACTUALLY DURING A DISAGREEMENT HE WAS HAVING WITH OUR CAT, MY SON WENT DOWN TO PET HIM AND HE BIT HIM ON THE HEAD. JUST LEFT A MARK, NO BLOOD. THE THIRD TIME, HE WAS ASLEEP AND MY DAUGTER WENT TO PET HIM. I THINK HE MAY HAVE BEEN STARTLED BECAUSE HE WOKE UP AND BIT HER IN THE FACE. WE DEFINATLEY ARE BEING MORE CAUTIOUS UNTIL HE GETS TO KNOW HIS SURROUNDING BETTER(AND US). I DO WISH HOWEVER, THAT HE WOULD EAT SOMETHING! I DON'T WANT HIM TO GET SICK!
THANKS,J |
| A dog new to a house with four kids is probably overwhelmed and unsure of what is going on. Kids move fast and change direction quickly, which can startle even an old family pet. Be sure the hair is up out of his eyes, so he can easily see what is going on.
Try to limit the number of children around him at a time - it seems like when one of my two-footed kids would play with one of the four-footed kids, the other two-footed kids magically appeared to play too. Too much for a new family pet. Where are you feeding him? It may be too busy a place for him to be comfortable. Try hand feeding him. Some extra attention, in a quiet room may do the trick. Another thought, are you giving him what he was eating before? He may not like the new food, if it is new. You can always try giving him some rice and chicken - my 4-foots never turn that down, even when they are healthy. Good luck. My kids grew up with Sheepies and they are wonderful! |
| He may be guarding his food because of his experience at the shelter, he may have had it taken from him by other dogs and went hungry as a result. It could be he's not eating because he doesn't like the food; or as Jill said he's nervous. Was he in a home previously with children? Do you know why he was in a shelter? Excessive thirst is a common sign of diabetes among other things, has a vet checked him out? You could try handfeeding him or adding something extra to his food to entice him.
Children should be taught never to disturb a sleeping dog or put their hands near a dogs face since it may be hand shy. |
| Hi and Welcome to the forum.
It's great that you adopted Barnabus from the shelter and I'll pipe up with some suggestions too. Here goes: For many years my dog Shaggy and I were under contract with the Humane Education Society to provide "Educational Pet Talks" to school children and the general public. One was called "Bite Free" - in essence what to teach children to prevent them from being bitten by a dog. I agree 4 kids, a new household, new surroundings, new everything, is bound to be very hard on Barnabus. Dogs are pack animals and Barnabus will eventually view himself as part of the pack (your family) - he must also find his place in the pack and may try to gain higher status than your children and do inappropriate things. Shelter dogs have had a lot of stress and a new environment is really hard...give him some quiet time and try to limit the introductions to one on one with the kids until you know him better. Always supervise with each child and instantly stop if either the dog or child is doing something inappropriate. I'll list a few things. Try to view things from Barnabus's world..(dog world) vs people thoughts and play. Do not have your children play tug of war with Barnabus - dogs may view this as a sign of dominance, winner (usually the dog views himself as higher status). Not to say your kids may never do this but wait until you know him better. NEVER HAVE YOUR CHILDREN HOLD HIM BY THE SIDE OF THE FACE AND PLACE THEIR FACE CLOSE TO HIS TO KISS OR HUG HIM. This is extremely important as in the DOG world staring at another dog in the face and restraint is viewed as a challenge. Barnabus MAY either react with fear or aggression. Now again, you may be able to do this some day but as you don't know him well yet and vice versa really supervise the children and stress they can't do this. Never allow Barnabus to hump your child..it's not sexual but a sign of dominance in the dog world. Don't grab him either if this happens as he obviously is close to your child but distract him with something else instead. Or make sure Barnabus has you in his eyesight and said a firm NO! With all dogs a firm No is enough to make them stop, distraction of some kind and then lots of praise...good boy! Whatever work you initially put in will be paid back tenfold. It's easy to sometimes let your guard down or become complacent if a new dog is in your home but I'd supervise all interactions the first month and you'll have one of the most wonderful breeds of dogs living in your home. When I did the pet talks, I would try to explain it in terms so children would understand and yes I'm going to contridict myself a bit as I used scenerios in people terms so they could understand. I'd say to the kids..How would you feel if you went home today and found a strange kid in your house, sitting on your bed, wearing your clothes..and maybe playing with your toys. (Kids would all acknowledge this would make them ..mad, jealous, worried..ect) Would you say hey, "Whaddya doing in my room!" (Kids would acknowledge they'd probably say something like that) Well dogs may feel that way too if a stranger walked into their yard (they'd bark to get the attention of the rest of the pack...people..quick ..there's someone in the yard!" or "Grrr back off..this is my food". Never startle a sleeping dog - always call it first ( you already saw what happened in this scenerio) It's the same as when children plop down almost on a dogs backside...dog never sees it coming and reacts with a startle reaction, hense uninentional bite. I don't want to overwhelm you with too much info here but give Barnabus a chance to settle in as the pacing and drinking I suspect is a sign of nervousness. He is still unsure in this new situation as to what is expected of him. Try not to overwhelm him but you as the mom or your hubby should try to spend a bit of time bonding with him (without the children or one at a time). Once he gets used to your routine he will relax a bit. Visit this forum often and ask anything you want no matter how insignificant as we're a really friendly group and here to help. Good luck and congratulations on Barnaby. Marianne and the boys |
| Hi
How long have you had Barnabus? My advice is,,,take him back to the humane society or call rescue. I'm sorry to say your not qualified or experienced enough to cope with his issues. He is stress yes, but your family is also stressed. He probably has never been around children. What good it is to have a dog that you need to have your guard up all the time. I know others may think I'm not giving Barnabus a chance, but it sounds like he needs to be in another type of home. If your not willing to give him up then Barnabus and your family need help from a professional dog trainer. Barbara |
| Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am not as optimistic with this match. Where did he come from and who said he was good with kids?
With a rescue dog "good with kids" had better mean bullet-proof with kids. Raised with kids, and enjoys kdis, and takes all thier potential abuse. By abuse I mean dressing them up, trying to ride them, the kind of things that kids do. Some dogs really enjoy that, and some don't. A dog with any chance of a nip or defensive behavior should NOT be placed with kids. Your kids may learn fine, but what about thier freinds? Or neices or nephews? It sounds to me that Barnabus does not have good bite inhibition, and has a low bite threshold. A dog with a soft bite will not leave marks, and a dog that has been scolded for growling as a warning will skip the growl and go right to the bite. I'm sure you understand that if he had growled first the chidlren would have been warned and the bites would not have happened. For example, my Bosley guards his food bowl from Dixie, the OES I am fostering. He is fine with people and anyone can go near him and his bowl, but when she is around it is a different story. He gives her lots of warnings.. first he gets stiff, then he stares at her, and if she doesn't leave he rushes and barks at her, then returns to his bowl and stares again. You all the chances he is giving her? Banabus is not doing any of those things, so I suspect that in the past he was given the respect when he tried and may have been taught NOT to growl, but go right to the bite. Kids should not be doing certain things, as Marianne has outlined, but some dogs react quicker and in different ways. Another dog may have just rolled over for a belly rub when awakened, or given kisses when a face is close. Not all dogs would, but I'm sure on this forum there are people whose dogs would have reacted more gentley and submissively. You need a dog that has lived with kids, LOVED kids, and submits to them already. Barnabus is a year old, and may not have had the lenght of history required for a housefull of kids. Going on walks, and meeting kids and letting them pat him does not mean "good with kids?. |
| Hi Again,
What the other posters are saying is true but what I'm concerned about is, if you take back the dog to the shelter with the reasoning that he bites. Barnabus may then be labled aggressive and a biter. That worries me as some shelters then may put him down. This may not be fair to Barnabus as although most claim there was no reason, if you are familiar with dogs and their language - there is always a reason why they act that way. Yes, I am passionate and stand firm regarding labeling a dog a biter as sadly the dog always pays the price - I've seen it happen time and time again. They are given no second chance in many shelters. I agree with returning the dog with the reasoning he's too stressed and not good with children but I'm not willing to make Barnabus pay the ultimate price with such little info. We just don't have enough to base our decision on that yet. It's true growling is their way of communicating their displeasure, however those of us that posted don't have enough info from your post to have obtained that info from you. I hope you come back and tell us some more. Marianne and the boys |
| I highly recommend calling a trainer and reading a book called The Dog Listener (by Jan Farrell I think) ASAP. We rescued a shepherd mix 14 years ago. She was a biter and we were so frightened about how she would react to children. We hired the K9 trainer form the police department and after 1 week she NEVER in 14 years EVER even mouthed anyone. You have to get some help and cannot leave the kids alone with him for now.
The book really explains how dogs act in a pack and how it correlates to how they react in our families. For the guarding, you can fill his food bowl on the counter and put a stack of crackers next to it so he thinks they are in his bowl. Then have everyone eat a cracker while he watches, then give him his bowl of food last. Good luck! |
| I agree with bhort, it is not fair for the dog to be in a situation he cannot handle, and if he seriously hurts one of your kids, not only would your child be hurt, but the dog would have to be put to sleep. |
| I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR ADVICE. I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT AFTER READING SOME OF YOUR POSTS, I FELL A BIT INADEQUATE TO CARE FOR THIS DOG. I DID ACTUALLY DO A FAIR AMOUNT OF READING ON THIS BREED. I THOUGHT THAT PERHAPS BY GETTING AN SLIGHTLY OLDER DOG, WHO WAS ALREADY HOUSE TRAINED ETC... IT WOULD MAKE THINGS A LITTLE EASIER BECAUSE WE COULD DEVOTE MORE TIME IN ENJOYING HIS COMPANY AND GETTING TO KNOW HIM. I AM DEFINATLEY BEING MORE CAUTIOUS WITH THE KIDS AND HAVE EXPLAINED HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR THEM TO BE CAREFUL AND UNDERSTANDING WITH HIM. I KEPT A VERY CLOSE EYE ON HIM TODAY AND DID NOT LET THE KIDS ALONE WITH HIM. I AM 99% SURE THAT IF I TAKE HIM BACK TO THE SHELTER, THE OUTCOME FOR HIS FUTURE WITH BE GRIM. I LIVE IN AN AREA WHERE SHEEPDOGS ARE NOT A HIGHLY SOUGHT OUT ANIMAL AND I DON'T IMAGINE THAT MANY WILL BE POUNDING DOWN THE DOOR TO ADOPT HIM. BARNABUS REALLY IS AN AMAZING ANIMAL. HE IS SO SMART AND WELL TRAINED. HE LISTENS AND FOLLOWS COMMANDS. HE HAS NOT HAD ONE ACCIDENT IN THE HOUSE. EACH TIME HE BIT THE KIDS, YOU COULD ALMOST TELL HE FELT BAD FOR WHAT HE DID. HE HUNG HIS HEAD AND KIND OF CRAWLED AWAY FROM THEM. I AM BEGINNING TO WONDER IF HE WAS ABUSED BECAUSE HE IS TERRIFIED OF THE BROOM, THE VACUUM, LOUD OISES. EVEN IF I RAISE MY VOICE TO TELL HIM NO, HE EITHER RUNS AND HIDE(KIND OF ARMY CRAWLS INTO THE NEAREST CORNER) OR ACTS LIKE HE'S READY TO FIGHT ME. AFTER A SECOND, WHEN I TALK SWEET TO HIM AND REASSURE HIM ITS OKAY, HE'LL BE FINE. I HATE TO TAKE HIM BACK TO THE SHELTER, AND I HAVEN'T A CLUE OF HOW TO FIND A TRAINER IN MY AREA, BUT I AM GOING TO CHECK IT OUT. YOUR RIGHT, ITS NOT SENSIBLE TO HAVE AN ANIMAL THAT YOUR AFRAID OF. I WAS TOLD WHEN I ADOPTED HIM THAT HE LIVED WITH A FAMILY WHO HAD SMALL CHILDREN, BUT THEY COULDN'T KEEP HIM DUE TO SPACE LIMITATIONS( WHAT DID THEY THINK, HE WAS GOING TO GROW INTO A POODLE?). I THINK THE PREVIOUS OWNERS HAD TOLD THE SHELTER HE WAS GOOD WITH KIDS AND WAS A GOOD DOG, BUT THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR HIM. I DO KNOW THAT HE WAS HIT BY A GARBAGE TRUCK FOUR MONTHS AGO(SHETER TOLD ME) BUT THAT HE WAS VET CHECKED(HAVE THE PAPERS) AND HAD NO PROBLEMS. AS FAR AS GROWING, HE DIDN'T GROWL BEFORE HE BIT THEM, BUT WHILE HE BIT THEM. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THE WRONG IMPRESSION, HE IS NOT FEROCIOUS AND I CAN JUSTIFY WHY HE MAY HAVE DONE THIS. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT I SHOULD DO ABOUT IT, AND REALLY WONDERED WHAT YOU ALL THOUGHT. HE IS MOST OF THE TIMES, VERY GOOD WITH THE KIDS. THE FEW TIMES HOWEVER THAT HE WASN'T, WERE VERY SCARY AND ENOUGH TO MAKE ME THINK TWICE.
I THOUGHT THAT I WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING........MAYBE I WAS WRONG! JHUNT |
| You don't have to take him back to the shelter, you could turn him into OES Rescue. You can contact Grannie Annie with NEOESR.
The contact info can be found through the main page of this site. |
| J Hunt,
Everyone here is concerned for you and your family as well as Barnabus and is trying to give you some advise to minimize the pain and suffering for all concerned. First off you need to consider things from Barnabus' point of view and his background. Here you have a one year old dog that has been at least severely traumatized when hit by the garbage truck if not severely physically hurt, has been "abandonded" by his original family, spent time in a shelter which in even the best of circumstances is stressful and now he is "thrown" into a new family where he has sudenly become the centre of overwhelming attention. He has been through a lot and even someone who has been an OES parent before would be challenged by his case. Now add in the basic character of an OES. These are big highly capable, very inteligent dogs that were originally bred to work with minimal supervision and guidance. They are very intelligent and as a consequence many are also very dominant. You must (lovingly but firmly) establish the pack order in your home. And you must also realize that OES, along with many breeds that are highly inteligent and independant will not necessarily recognize children as having a higher pack position than themselves. As an example our big Alpha boy Virgil Tiberius not only doesn't recognize our two kids (10 and 11) as having a higher pack order, they aren't even on his radar screen. He is very good with them - plays with them, even kisses them and lets them pet him and so forth - but he clearly dismisses them if there is any "pack order" behaviours. For example when I (pack alpha) come home from work he insists on being the first to greet me. He will run right by, or over, the kids to get to me. No malice is intended, he is just coming to greet me and re-assert his #2 position in the pack. Right now Barnabus is very confused and trying to find his place in his new world. You have to assume the worst in his background - perhaps abused and your last post has pointed in this direction, food used to control or torment him, verbally abused - again your last post points in this direction, and he may possibly be in some sort of long term pain from his accident. If at all possible provide him a place of his own, both to retreat from too much excitement, a place for quiet "time-outs" and to sleep. A good roomy crate is by far the best arrangement for this. Lacking a crate a corner set apart for him with a blanket, a water bowl and a few treats when appropriate. This becomes his "space" a place of refuge and rest. Make sure "his space" is respected by all. For the near future - until he settles into your home and family - you should only enter it when cleaning it and providing fresh water, food or treats. If he is in it at cleanign time coax him out gently and talk to him while you are cleaning and re-supplying his crate/corner. Bright happy tones in your voice will help re-assure him that he is not being evicted from his space and will help him settle into the family routine. In fact talk to him a lot any time of the day. Your voice will re-assure him and help him associate with you and your family. Always praise when he does well, be firm but controlled when he does wrong and just be pleasant with him as he carries on with his daily activities. Bright happy tones, it hardly matters what you say, just get him to associate with you and your family, that this is now home and it will be a good and permanent home. Never leave young children alone with Barnabus. Our three OES have all grown up with our two kids and are very well behaved. Even so we don't let them play unsupervised and we are always ready to step in and calm things down. (It is usually the two footed kids that have to be calmed down. The 4 footers generally take their lead from the two footers in this regard and as the kids get more excited so too do the dogs.) An 85lb dog is far stronger and faster than an 85lb child and even though no malice is present when big dogs play with excited children the dogs can become very boistrous and can accidently bowl over children without knowing their own strength! And I would expect that only your 10 year old is within 20lbs of Barnabus' weight. As hard as it will be for your children try to have them leave Barnabus to settle in for a week or so with minimal interaction with him. Deal with one "issue" at a time and I recommend the first is to get him into the household routine. Food: Assume the worst in Barnabus' past and conduct meal times accordingly. Mix his food and then call him to a designated place to eat, be it in his crate/space, in a corner of the kitchen/dining room etc where he will be left to eat undistrubed. Food aggression generally comes out of a history of being denied food, not being fed enough or too much competition in a household with a lot of dogs. He needs to be re-assured that his food is his and his alone. Meal time is a time to leave him in peace and give him all the time he needs to eat and be comfortable with his surroundings. Of all the "problems" we have between our dogs 90% are over food or water, one dog trolling another's bowl, getting to close to each other at feeding time etc. Perhaps more than anything in his life mealtime must be a regular routine for Barnabus. Feed him a base meal with minimal changes, feed him in the same place and more than anything try to give him regular meal times. Once he is comfortable that he will be fed and he can depend on you for that he will calm down and you can then work on the other "issues". Alpha: You, or your husband must establish yourelf as alpha in your pack. Barnabus must see you as the pack authority - strict yet fair and loving at all times. Do not let Barnabus "push" you around. If he has been abused he will need gentle reassurance that you won't do that to him but you must equally insist on a minimum level of manners and obedience. No doubt his "biting" of your children was at best traumatic, at worst terrifying. How did you and your husband react? An immediate and firm reproach is necessary and good, but a delayed, "paniced" and loud one will only confuse and scare Barnabus. You can only "reprimand" a dog for an error as and when it occurs. Even 5 minutes later and the dog doesn't associate the action and punishment and you are effectively at abuse even though that is the furthest thing from your intention. Play: Dogs need play and interaction with their people. It is through play that they are able to form bonds and understand their place. Until things settle however play needs to be limited and controlled. Only 1 or at most 2 should play with him at any given time until he has settled and come to accept everyone as playmates. Playtime should not be allowed to become overly excited. If he is barking loudly and running around from one person to another without actually "playing" then things have gotten out of hand and a "time-out" is necessary. Many say never play tug of war games. Personally I depart from that a bit and never let my children play tug of war with the dogs as the dogs will win that one and be re-enforcing their pack position as higher than the children. Even my wife rarely play's these games as she cannot be sure of winning, and Virgil barely recognizes here as number 2 in our pack 1 day out of 2 as it is! I can play as I have the strength to ensure that I will win and re-affirm my place in the pack. For _ our dogs and I_ it is a good pack order game. Perhaps the greatest caution I can offer for playtime is to NOT let your children get down to the same level as Barnabus. They MUST ALWAYS be higher than the dog. Dogs respect size in pack order and are much less likely challenge, nip or bite a higher ranking pack member who is also taller than themselves. This can be "touchy" with young children however as they may be ignored in the pack order, as our Virgil does our kids. Hence why our kids don't play with our dogs unsupervised and the kids must NEVER EVER get down to the dog's level. Many a playtime has been cut short because the kids get too excited and/or get down to the dog's level. IF this happens even for the briefest moment playtime is over -no questions, no exceptions!! In large part many times it is the two footed children who need to be "trained" and supervised as much as the 4 footed ones. Learn Your Dog. While you are trying to settle Barnabus into the family you or whoever is the primary caregiver needs to watch him closely and learn his reactions, his desires and traits. Learn what he likes, what are his limits and how to work with him without necesarily dominating everything in his life. As you learn these things integrate them into the family a whole, set limits for the children so they don't "stand themselves into danger" with Barnabus. At 1 year of age his personality development is similary to a 10-12 year old child's. It can take a long time to overcome "baseline problem issues" if he has any (mistrust from abuse, food guarding because of underfeeding etc.). Watch for his reactions to each child and how he reacts to more than 1 child at a time. Consider this akin to bring in a 8-10 year old "troubled" foster child into your home and family and having to deal with all the "problems" that come along in those cases. If you and your family cannot or will not take the time to slowly integrate Barnabus into the family with deliberate and measured steps then neither you nor Barnabus will get the chance to enjoy the great relations that being with an OES can bring (I never say owning and OES because if anything they will own you!) Everyone here will agree that this is a VERY SPECIAL breed that can deliver the greatest of rewards and love - see my avatar for a hint of that - but the Bobtail by virtue of it's inteligence, character, sense of humor, grooming requirements and simple physical size and strength is also a very demanding breed. They can and should become a valued and integral member of your family, but by the other side of the same coin they are also living breathing dependant lives which are a huge responsibility to their parents. I use the terms 4 footed children and parents because this is truly the relationship you seek and the relationship which will give you the great rewards that can be obtained. Are you and your family willing to take on this new "troubled foster" child and work through the problems to end up with another well brought up and beloved child. If you are then there is hope for you and Barnabus. If you cannot or will not give that level of effort then please, get hold of a rescue group and give Barnabus a chance for a forever home with a family that can and will. Remember we are all here to support and help you in any way possible, but Barnabus' needs are equally important to us all. All dogs deserve a good loving home and if needs be we will try to help you find the right one for him. Stay with us and we will do all we can. Just ask and you will find many knowledgable and caring people here ready at any time of the day or night . Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Very good advice Carl! |
| JHUNT,
Welcome to the forum! You'll get lots of great advice here! Just remember that not everybody agrees on everything, so erad up and then make your own decisions. I've sent you a "PM" on a technical issue. If you click on the link near the top of the page that says something like "You have no new messages" or "You have 1 new message" you can read it. Or, here's a link for you (This one will try to open up in a new window). http://forum.oes.org/privmsg.php?folder=inbox Again, welcome to the forum! |
| J Hunt,
I agree with all the sound advice presented. Several comments mentioned a trainer. I likewise adopted an abused OES that was a year and 9 months. Although kids were not an issue, (none in the home) she was very dominant toward my 8 months old sheepie, and quick to bite me if I wasn't careful in how I approached her, especially to handle her around the neck or collar (she had previously been tied up 24/7 outside). I was lucky enough to come across a trainer who also trained K9s for 45 years, as well as drug dogs - he had been a drug enforcment officer himself. He recently related a story about a dog owned by a mutual friend. The dog had bitten several people and the owner employed a lady who had a resume with a long list of credentials as a trainer and animal behaviorist. After attempting to work with the dog the lady gave up and recommended the dog be put down. Pat, my trainer, subsequently was contacted and in a very short time, rectified the problem. Moral: if you choose to go the trainer route, check the persons references on biting problems. Get one with a proven track record in the area of your problem. Also, establishing dominance is an everyday event. As is all training. Constant reinforcment is needed; especially where dominance is an issue. |
| THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR ADVICE, ALL OF YOU. TODAY WAS A GOOD DAY FOR BARNABUS. TAKING YOUR ADVICE, WE GAVE BARNABUS HIS OWN PRIVATE ROOM IN OUR FINISHED BASEMENT. ITS RIGHT NEXT TO THE FAMILY ROOM SO THAT HE CAN INTERACT WITH US WHEN HE WANTS, BUT CAN RETREAT TO HIS OWN ROOM AT ANYTIME. THE KIDS HAVE BEEN WARNED THAT THIS IS NOT THERE ROOM TO ENTER, ONLY HIS. I PUT HIS FOOD AND WATER DOWN THERE WITH HIM AS WELL AS AN OLD FUTON(HIS BED FOR NOW). SINCE THEN HE HAS GONE THROUGH TWO BIG BOWLS OF FOOD. WE HAD NO BITING TODAY, ALL THOUGH FOR SOME REASON HE DID HAVE TWO ACCIDENTS IN THE FAMILY ROOM WHICH HE HAS NEVER DONE BEFORE. NO BIG DEAL..........I DON'T THINK HE'LL CONTINUE DOING THAT. TO AWNSER A FEW OF YOUR QUESTIONS.. THE FIRST TIME HE BIT MY DAUGHTER(WHOS FOUR), I WAS LITERALLY FROZEN FOR A SECOND. IMMEDIATLEY THERE AFTER I SCOLDED HIM AND PUT HIM OUTSIDE FOR A WHILE UNTIL EVERYONE CALMED DOWN. THE SECOND TIME HE BIT MY SON(WHOS 9) I ACTUALLY DIDN'T SCOLD HIM BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONFRONTATION WITH OUR CAT AND MY SON REALLY SHOULD HAVE STAYED OUT OF IT. I WASN'T SURE HOW TO REACT. HE WAS SO SCARED OF ME THE FIRST TIME I YELLED AT HIM FOR BITING MY DAUGHTER THAT I FELT KIND OF BAD. WHEN HE BIT MY OTHER DAUGHTER(WHOS 7) HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEEP SLUMBER. SHE REACHED DOWN TO PET HIM AND HE WOKE UP WITH A FRIGHT AND BIT. I YELLED NO AND ONCE AGAIN PUT HIM OUTSIDE. WAS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO?? I DO THINK BARNABUS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD PET, I JUST THINK THE ADJUSTMENT FOR HIM AND THE KIDS IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE TOUGHER AND LONGER THAN I ORIGINALLY EXPECTED. I AM FOLLOWING YOUR ADVICE THOUGH AND AM OPTIMISTIC THAT THINGS CAN BE CONTROLLED. I DO HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION FOR TONIGHT. HE HAS NEVER TRIED TO HUMP ME, MY HUSBAND, OR DAUGHTERS....BUT HE IS CONSTANTLY TRYING TO HUMP MY SON. HE ACTUALLY GETS VERY AGGITATED WHEN HE ISN'T ALLOWED. SEVERAL TIMES I HAVE ACTUALLY HAD TO DRAG HIM AWAY FROM MY SON AND KEEP HIM AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE I GET THE FEELING THAT HE IS VERY MAD AND MAY BITE HIM. HE WILL ACTUALLY CHASE AND FOLLOW HIM EVERYWHERE WAITING FOR ANY OPPURTUNITY TO PIN HIM IN A CORNER AND HAVE HIS WAY WITH HIM. DO YOU THINK HE CAN SENSE HE IS A MALE AND IS TRYING TO OVERPOWER HIM? ANY IDEAS?? CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR YOUR HELP! jHUNT |
of the subject but why does it say "shaved " under my name when I write a post??  |
Okay now it says itchy?? What is up??  |
| Number of posts you have made determine what it says under your name. Under Ron's direction, of course. |
| Hi Again,
Barnabus may sense that your son and he are somewhat equal unlike your smaller children and he may be attempting to show his dominance over him. Not 100% sure this is what's happening but most of the time that's why dogs hump other dogs - is to establish dominance over them. I neglected to mention too that 1 year old dogs are going through puberty..oh boy...the teenage testing years. Even if Barnabus is neutered which I'm assuming he is..or is he? If not, I'd get that done ASAP and take a few weeks for those raging hormones to dissapate from his body. Dogs like kids(whom are in their teens) do a lot of testing . Ohhh boy..if you can survive that...you can survive anything. One of mine is now on his own and I'm in the midst of it with the other one. I hope I will come out of this experience with my sanity. The good thing is it's not forever and they eventually turn back into reasonably well behaved dogs/kids after that period. Although Sheepies remain goofy active dogs all their lives they do calm down by year three. Marianne and the boys |
| I would just make sure to keep telling Barnabus 'no' when he humps your son. He SHOULD get the message soon enough. Our dog Barney is 18 months old and he went through a phase, right about a year old, when my younger brother moved in with us and he liked to hump him. He's only tried to hump me once, and I don't think he's ever tried with my husband, so I do think it might be a dominance issue.
It sounds like you are doing the right things and are doing well with Barnabus. I wonder if the accidents in the house were a combination of him relaxing just a little bit and the fact that he had finally eaten...just thinking... I understand how scary it is to be bitten...Barney has never broken the skin with me, but there have been a few instances where he's growled then snapped at me, and they came pretty much at the same time, like growl-snap...freaked me out. Now I just know him and know what he doesn't like---he doesn't like me to pull on his collar, so I don't. I can see him tense up too when he's not comfortable with something so I know not to push anything at that point. So basically, you'll get to know your dog and know what his limits and levels of comfort are. Good luck! |
| Hey, I just realized it said you're from PA. If you let me know what area you are in I could probably give you some names of obedience schools or trainers. If you're near Philly Val could probably help you.
You can PM me if you don't want it out in the open. |
| J Hunt
I'm glad to hear that you seem to have turned at least "one corner" with Barnabus since you gave him his own space. Heck even our boys who all but run the roost don't have their own room!! But if you have the space and it is helping ..... It also seems like you handled the post-biting discipline reasonably well. I think that you should have stepped in when he bit your son in the "cat showdown" because the goal here is to ensure that Barnabus realizes that biting is totally unacceptable at any time. However your basic approach of a stern rebuke and isolating him until everything calms down is a good, measured and effective response. Barnabus "humping" your son! As Marriane has said this is a case of Barnabus seeing your son as having about the same pack status and wanting to get "one up" on him. At this point it seems that Barnabus is seeing you and your husband as pack leaders who he is not ready to challenge (indeed it is fundamental to his nature to want to please you). Your younger children are "below him" so he doesn't bother with them. Your son however is one; another male, and two, about the same size as him. These are pretty much classical conditions for a pack hierarchy challenge and you are seeing that with Barnabus "assaulting" your son. There are two factors that will help to minimize this. The first which you are already doing is for the pack alpha to step in and stop the behaviour with a stiff reprimand and physically seperating the two. (Low dark tones that "Barnabus is being a baaaaad boy and that Mommy is not at all happy with him and that Barnabus must stop this behaviour" will convey your displeasure as effectively as any physical act can do. If absolutely essential a single tap on his nose with a pointed finger while talking him down will have an incredible "shock effect" and totally focus Barnabus' attention on the lesson being given. - just one single light tap is all it will take as a last resort.) When Barnabus realizes that his actions are upsetting the pack leader, who he wants to please and get on his/her good side, then he will back down on his attempt at improving his pack stature, at least while you are present. The second thing is for your son to rebuke Barnabus' "advances". This is much easier said than done when the dog outweighs the child and is fundamentally much stronger. If you can teach your son to "plant his feet" so that Barnabus is unable to push him around while he calls for your help then Barnabus' challenge is being rebuked right from the beginning and this may help reduce the behaviour as well. Make sure that your son understands that he needs to try and stay calm and must not strike Barnabus. The calmer and more resolved your son can be then the quicker Barnabus will get the idea he is not going to move up the pack order. I know that this is a tall order for a 9 year old but if you can work with him on this as well as Barnabus then you double your chances of success. However, all that being said, you may not be able to stop this entirely, at least until your son grows substantially taller and is strong enough to firmly fend off Barnabus by himself. We have a similar dominance issue in our house. Yes you guessed it our big alpha boy Virgil Tiberius and our 11 year old son Matthew. Virgil totally dismisses our daughter and for the most part dismisses Matthew as not being of consequence in the pack order. However there are times he "bosses" Matthew around! He doesn't try to "dominate" Matt but he will herd Matt around and put Matt "in his place", all the time being "right on Matt's butt" as though it is going to be the tastiest meal in the world! He has never bitten Matt but this behaviour is one of the reason's we don't let the dogs and children play unsupervised and we are always ready to step in if we are in any way concerned about either boys' behaviour. Many times it is necessary to send Matt out of the room as he is a normal biped kid and gets excited and wants to run around. He just doesn't get to do that around Virgil as that gets Virgil going and two excited kids, one 85 lb OES alpha boy and one 75 lb biped is a recipe for problems. Not going there, not doing that, no where no how if I can help it, and seperating the two works!!! Matt gets talked to, Virgil gets talked to and 20 minutes later they can be in the same room together again. (It's amazing how similar the lecture each gets is!  )
This dog vs. pre-teen boy challenge is actually a very common situation in OES families. Many boys who loved the dogs when they were less than 8 really don't like their family OES while they are between 8 and 14 years because of this constant pack order challenge and getting pushed around by them. However once they are a bit older yet and are big and strong enough to "fend for themselves" all of a sudden the Bobtail is again their greatest friend in the world. It seems like you and your family are really dedicated to "making it work" with Barnabus. That is a great thing as clearly Barnabus needs his furever home. While raising and caring for a Bobtail will never be a simple and mindless task, if you can get through these early adoption days your effort level will drop as you resolve Barnabus' issues and you will find that you get more and more back from him for less effort. As ever don't hesitate to ask for help as and when needed. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| I think both Carl and Marianne are giving you excellent advice. I rescued a dog from the shelter at the age of three. The dog had been tied outside to a tree for the entire 3 years he was alive; rain, snow, heat you name it. If there was ever an animal that most people would have given up on it would have been Socks. He was truly an "animal" and had no social skills at all. It took awhile and we did go through some relapses to this day, the only other dog he tolerates is my 2 year old Golden who is 10 times the size of him. Socks still has to show that he is the alpha mail by barking in jakes face, but when this over, usually 3 minutes, everything is great. Most people would have returned Socks to shelter where he would have been put down. He is now 14 years old and just about the sweetest dog you will ever meet. The myriad of problems I had for the first year were well worth it.
Seek advice and training, give Barnabus lots of positive praise and reinforcement, never negative and love him. I'm sure he will become a great member of your family. |
| Hi KM,
I like you already! Welcome to the forum! Your boys story just broke my heart and instantly reminded me of a few furballs on here that had horrible circumstances in which some kind hearted soul rescued them. Socks is so lucky to have you and wow what a good age he is! It breaks my heart to view and hear about so many that need good homes and so hard to realize we can't save them all. Yet, to the one we do step up and help, it makes a difference in their lives. I've had so many in my home that others gave up on and yet saying that I realize I have much admiration for those that tried and it didn't work out. No harm in that, as sometimes for whatever reason it's not the right match. In Barnabus's case I'm hoping it will work out but at the same time completely understand the concerns regarding children in the house. I'm glad Barnabus's mom found us as we may be able to help or lead her in the right direction so that Barnabus finds his forever home, if it doesn't work out in this particular home. 2 years ago I brought home Panda who had so many "issues" due to abuse and through no fault of his own. It's been a long road...sometimes for every step forward it's two steps back. (it's important to remember that). He is now the most loving and beautiful dog but I also know that I would not have been able to bring him into a house of children. It was just too dangerous and his behavior was still so unpredictable. Still, I did bring home some when my kids were small and they too had "issues". The dog not the kids in this case.  It just depends on what they are and that everyone in the house is happy and safe. I didn't let my guard down for the first year just to make sure.
Thanks for adding to the post KM, as success stories like yours makes it possible for people to see there is hope even when it doesn't look like it at times. Marianne and the boys |
| My heart goes out to Janet who's only flaw is trusting other human beings (something most of us on the forum are guilty of, I'm sure). I don't have much to add to what everyone has said except that I'm very upset about all this and keep crying sporatically as I read Janet's email postings.
I've never really been involved in any type of activism, but now would be the time. I'm open to any suggestions for how I can contribute. |
| I read through the whole thing - what has happened??? |
| http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=8668 |
Thanks (I think  ) for the link. That is absolutely horrible.
Our Bart came to us with a history of being dominant to his family's young daughter. Nancy from Mn OES Rescue was VERY insistant he went to an experienced OES family, and one that has dealt with strong minded dogs. He had a few moments of dominance, but it is already water under the bridge and he fits in perfect with our humans and dogs. He is really the sweetest sheepie boy who craves attention and always tries to be touching someone with some part of his body at all times. He already went on a therapy dog visit with our local chapter and he was a success. He is also starting to compete in Rally obedience - will be in his 1st show at the end of the month! we think he is doing wonderful and is a rescue success story for sure. |
| So glad to hear of a success story!! |
| It's my understanding that dogs will often get protective of their food and growl at humans or other animals. This can be treated. However, when a dog actually bites, as in the case with your children, there may be some sort of fear-agression going on. He may be uncertain and nervous and resorts to agression. My dog was rescued and she is a very nervous/timid dog, but has never bit anyone- even during times of great distress. It is easy to fall in love with the OES, but not at the expense of your children's safety. And you may find yourself in a law suite eventually. A dog that bites is not a good choice for a family pet, regardless of how cute it is. I'm sorry that you are dealing with that. |
| Christy,
It is a long story which you could read about on other links on the forum, but the dog was ultimately put to sleep. |
| Oh just coming back to this thread makes me tear...
I was so mad and venting to my DH the otherday telling him every detail of the tragic saga... |
| RON,
please if you come up with a way for us to help janet please post something. i would gladly do anything to help her keep her other dogs. i am so sad about this and really i want to know if there is something to be done about the county dog man. I have many friends here who are senators...my dad is in politics here so i would be glad to make people aware if it would help. Or start a petition. i can't believe that man was in the position he was in. I just can't believe an obious personal vendeta was involved in barney's situation. it is so sad  |
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