EXTREME aggression & biting
THANKS! |
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| The very first question is: "Has Bailey been neutered?" If not, that is the VERY FIRST THING to do, pronto, before this behaviour gets any more ingrained. Also having the dog checked by the vet for other issues including thyroid levels is important, too.
Biting is a very hard behavior to retrain and requires someone with experience and a safe (NO KIDS!) environment and still may never be fully corrected. If Bailey has already been neutered, then I think your next action is to have him evaluated by a pro. I had a very dominant dog who it turns out had a cryptorchid (they missed his undescended testicle when he was neutered, so he was in essense an intact dog). I can tell you from my prior ignorance and first hand experience that swatting your dog or becoming physically agressive with him will probably not help, but will probably just make things even worse. The Nothing In Life Is Free approach is a better way to assert your dominance. This is all just my opinion. I'm not a behaviorist or a vet, and others may have some very different perspectives. Remember though, the safety of your family and neighbors is the most important thing to consider. |
| I also have a 13 month old Bailey, and I'm so sorry to hear that you are having such serious problems. I would recommend that you find a trainer experienced in dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP and have Bailey evaluated. He won't grow out of it. You need help from an experienced professional, and you need it soon before he hurts anyone else or you. The right trainer may be able to teach you how to change this behavior so that Bailey will be a safe companion for you.
I hadn't even thought about neutering - I always assume that all dogs are! Good point Ron! Good luck! |
Thank you for your responses. I had Bailey neutered when he was just 3 months old. I do agree that I should probably see a professional. He is SO spoiled and I really think he is just a VERY stubborn sheepdog. He gets to go to the park or for a run almost every other day, goes swimming whenever he wants, and is shown SO much love and attention. I just wish he cared about pleasing me!  |
| Even though he was neutered, if it was done at 3 months there is a very good chance they did not get all the testicular tissue. I would have them double check... |
| I am NOT a professional trainer but here are a few things to consider...
Seek professional assistance with Bailey today... ask your vet for a recommendation of someone with experience with headstrong and aggressive dogs. BUT a trainer with a gentle, positive approach to the problem. I can tell you're very concerned about this behavior so it's a sign to get help right now. Personally, I would throw away the shock collar... I had a trainer tell me that they can make an aggressive dog more aggressive. I may be completely off but Bailey may be viewing some of the corrections as an attack so he's fighting back... bitterapple spray in the mouth, a swat on the snout, a shock collar. As Ron said, make him work for everything so he looks to you as the source of everything good. Make him work for your attention- before you even pet him, give the command "sit". Before he gets his food, make him sit. Don't force him into a sit... instead wait him out... if he wants it bad enough, he will eventually sit... a calm "good boy" should follow. You might want to rethink the park because fortunately he got his first bite free... but if you take him out to a secure area, before letting him off-leash, make him sit. Praise for each good thing accomplished... if verbal isn't reward enough, give a small treat each time then wean him back to every other time. If he won't follow the command, simply turn your back on him and walk away which is actually telling him, "If you don't play nice I won't play at all!" You're sheepie-boy is way too big to force into doing something he doesn't want to do and if he's showing aggressive tendencies, discipline in the form of "negative punishment" can cause an aggressive dog to become more so. Have you tried to redirect him? When he is doing something naughty, instead of forcing him in kitchen for a time out, the you could try calling him to the kitchen, putting him in a sit/stay or do a few more commands, giving him a small reward for following through with the commands, THEN locking the gate. The same outcome is achieved but in a much more pleasant manner for both you and your dog. Please seek professional help... positive training with a qualified trainer should help some. Do not allow him around strangers or children until he has been professionally assessed. We had an extremely alpha spayed female sheepie-mix that bit our son on the thumb twice... once when he was about 8 and again a month before she died. I know the second time he was teasing her and I had even told him he was going to get nipped. You could not force this regal/aloof dog to do anything BUT you could bride her to anything but roll over as submissive. We never took her out in public... we had her for 11 years. Some of the people on this list are probably aware of a drug called Clomicalm or Clomipramine. It is a drug used to treat anxiety disorders like separation anxiety but it can also help curb SOME aggressive challenges... it is to be used along with behavior modification. We have used this drug for both problems. Meesha, one of our top dogs in the pack, has fear aggression. She was orphaned at about 5 weeks and is a Schipperke-mix that is more high strung... but it's also a tendency of the breed to be family oriented and wary of strangers. Meesha is on Clomicalm to curb the aggressive tendencies... enough to cool down the growling and confrontation but not too much to make her want to sleep. Panda-The-Fearless is our newest sheepie in the pack and is also on this drug for separation anxiety- she was rehomed too many times in 9 months. Panda attracts most of the growls and a few setdowns from Meesha. Having mentioned the drugs I should also tell you that we too have a professional trainer coming in... one who deals with basic training but is also known to help dogs with aggressive tendencies. Not to train my dogs but to better enable me to handle each member of the pack. He comes highly recommended by our vet and also other trainers in the area because of his gentle approach. He forewarned my husband, "I train by rewarding positive behavior... I do not discipline." Sounds good to me  Maybe I'll get some good ideas on how to handle Panda-The-Fearless-And-Kleptomaniac 
Please keep us posted on how your sheepie-boy is doing. I know it's frustrating but you may be able to learn some ways to help manage this problem if this is what you want. Wow... this was really long... hope they don't charge me by the word  |
| Jaclin -- I found your post very helpful. I'm trying to do Nothing in Life is Free with Maggie, who can be headstrong, and you gave me some good new ideas to reinforce the message. I've always been somewhat confused by how to stop bad behavior (eating kitty food that is on the counter) but still commend good behavior (obeying my off command). I am going to try the off / sit / stay / treat method. Thanks!! |
| Wow, thanks for great advice! I have already started looking for a personal one on one trainer. I will also try the trick of showing a treat before I lock the gate. But would that confuse him in any way by giving him a reward directly after bad behavior? I know he definately wouldn't fight me as much. I will keep everyone posted.
Thanks! Laura |
| I'm so sorry to hear about the problems you're having with Bailey. I have a 90lb aggressive sheepdog as well, and when he was Bailey's age I was going out of my mind! The good news is that there is still a possibility that bailey will grow out of some of this behavior, the bad news is that it will probably take a lot of work on your part in the mean time.
I took walter to several trainers that used punishment based methods, and it never worked. He was scared of them, but since im only 20 lbs more than him and not as assertive, when I tried to do it myself he would attack me. In my opinion, the best and most effective approach for aggressive dogs is positive reinforcement. Dogs dont understand punishment the same way as humans, so if you give him a treat for sitting or laying down, even if it is right after he did something bad, he will associate the treat with following your command. Your biggest concern right now is probably how to get him to stop attacking you... my best advice would be to have treats all over the house. when he starts showing signs of aggression, grab a treat and give a command. it will distract him, and also teach him that being good pays! if you want to put him in the kitchen, bribe him with a treat. the positive reinforcment will work wonders. It wont erase the aggression, but it will deter it. Walter used to bite me every single day, and now it is maybe once every 3 months. Good luck! |
| Good question... I think by making him go through some commands you will be rewarding him for the new behavior instead. Until you can get with the trainer to assess Bailey, try to watch for the triggers that might be causing the aggression. You might be able to defuse or redirect his attention before the situation gets too far. Or you may have the opportunity to get up and walk away thus punishing him by ignoring him. AGAIN... I am not a professional trainer and you need one to help you determine how best to handle Bailey.
I'm going to suggest a couple of books but they do NOT replace the professional trainer which is needed now since he is a proven biter... There are a couple of good books that a friend and I were just talking about (hi Jim ). And a friend of my sisters had taken one of her classes (she has a basset hound in agility  ). They are "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller and also "Positive Perspectives- Love Your Dog/Train Your Dog" by the same author. Chapters 19 and 20 discuss biting and some of the causes. They talk about the bite threshold and that every dog has one. Maybe you can learn to recognize this in Bailey. Is he used to being around unfamiliar people... could this stress have caused the bite at PetSmart??? It caused my Meesha to growl at the PetSmart lady which was the last time she went out in public. 
One more thing, if anyone is playing tug-a-war with him they should stop now. This game and rough housing with an aggressive dog can get them too excited and they see the game as a challenge as to who will come out on top. Please check with your vet too in case there is a medical condition that could cause this. As Ron mentioned if he is cryptorchid it could cause some dominance issues too... it seems the vet would have mentioned this if he/she was unsure they got "it" all but maybe not. I think he might be a bit young for low thyroid but that too has been said to cause aggression. Another thing is undiagnosed pain like with hip dysplasia... this can make them cranky companions. |
| I have an aggressive male sheepdog too. He came into rescue and I couldn't adopt him out knowing this trait. He's been here 9 months and everyday has been a challenge. Forcing an issue or punishment makes his actions worse.
I have nothing to add to the above, only wanted you to know that there are others with your problem. |
| I have said this so many times... an aggressive dog is like having a loaded gun lying around and waiting for it to go off. We chose to live with Nikki because we knew no one would ever give her a good home... but also because we loved her. We were devastated when we had her put down during exploratory surgery 2 years ago because of incurable, undiagnosed kidney tumors.
With Nikki, I experienced such a mixture of feelings... love, fear, hope, betrayal, joy, sadness, uncertainty. The only way we made it work was understanding her limits, avoiding certain things completely or working around them. There is nothing wrong with using a bride to get a dog to willingly comply and it makes for a much nicer co-existence. |
Lauralou wrote: Thank you for your responses. I had Bailey neutered when he was just 3 months old. I do agree that I should probably see a professional. He is SO spoiled and I really think he is just a VERY stubborn sheepdog. He gets to go to the park or for a run almost every other day, goes swimming whenever he wants, and is shown SO much love and attention. I just wish he cared about pleasing me!
You have been given some very good advice already so I won't muddy the waters with more. Training is the key. Your answer above tells an awful lot about your problem!! We can "love" our sheepies right into behavior problems if we aren't careful, just like kids they can be "spoiled rotten". There really isn't such thing as a "very stubborn sheepdog" just an untrained one. For your sake and his get yourself to a good trainer ASAP!! Welcome to the forum, you will find alot of great people here with lots of experience and very good advice. |
| I cannot add to the wonderful advice here. I can only support it. He is a ticking time bomb, and everyone needs to be kept safe. Get professional advice, and in the meantime remain calm when you are handling him. Try to work with him and not against him. Right now, when he is doing something you don't want him to do, think of what you want him to do instead, get him to do it (bribery, if need be) and then reward that new behavior. But you need to work for successes, so don't ask him to do something that you won't be able to reward.
I have the book "The Power of Positve Dog Training" by Pat Miller, and it is great. |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/
Maybe this will be of benefit to you, I am not a member but ran across it looking for something else. Good luck. |
| While you are waiting for professional help to arrive, you might benefit from this site: http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/. I am an fan of Cesar Milan's TV show. He stresses "calm assertive" owner attitude, exercise, and owner behavior that gets fido to submit.
I see that he has a DVD out. His TV shows carry a warning "Do not try this without professional supervision." All the same, you can pick up some good hints from watching. Best of luck with a problem none of us wants to deal with. |
Hmmmm cjm.... you're not Cesar Millan, are you? 
Here are links to his book (Due out April 4th, preorder now!) and his DVDs: Cesar's Way : The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding and Correcting Common Dog Problems (Hardcover), by Cesar Millan, Melissa Jo Peltier New! I just found out there will be an abridged Audio CD of the book read by Cesar himself! Cesar's Way : The Natural, Commonsense Guide to Understanding and Correcting All Common Dog Problems [ABRIDGED] (Audio CD), by Cesar Millan (Narrator), Melissa Jo Peltier Cesar Millan's DVDs People Training for Dogs, Cesar Millan's personal DVD!! Dog Whisperer With Cesar Millan - The Complete First Season (2004) DVD Box Set Dog Whisperer With Cesar Millan - Aggression (2004) Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan - Volume 1 (2004) Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan - Volume 2 (2004) Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan - Stories from Cesar's Way (2004) |
Ron wrote: Hmmmm cjm.... you're not Cesar Millan, are you?
Whoa. I didn't realize we share initials. I'm just a fan. I TIVO all his shows. Incidentally, his show is my pup's favorite. The barking gets her attention and when dogs come on the screen she puts her nose right to the TV. |
| I can relate to you Laura..My Cody has gotten aggressive.So, At my witts end, I went and bought the book that all here tell people to get.The Dog Listner,by Jan Fennell..I have not even got to the second part of the book which is the training part.And I am seeing a BIG differance in Cody.With no hitting or yelling! I swear! 100% believer! Cody is learning that he don't have to protect me or the family.I won't go on & on.You really need to read this.It all makes sence when you read her book.I have went to her web site,And on there is also other people that use the Amichien Bonding method.i have found one here in Indiana.And she is affordable if I should need to.Cheaper then a trainer.I'm just suggesting that you give it a try.The book was only $16.95 here.Good luck! Don't give up! |
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