Behavior issue with Sheba
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| I have no answers to the problem, just......um........isn't that what girls do to boys??? |
Thanks! I needed a good chuckle this morning! |
| LOL Rebecca! I have to agree that my sympathies lie with the males of most species - particularly human!
Deograine- You are right to be concerned to about that bad sheepie behaviour. She just wants to be the Alpha with him but since you are really the Alpha she might take her cue from you. Mopsy only got away with what I let her when it came to interacting with her "human" brothers. Also because they are such smart dogs I was even able to use the phrase "be nice" whenever she was getting too rough with a new toy or when we would meet a new puppy on the street. She seemed to understand and curb her wild ways. Anyway that phrase might work when gently correcting Sheba. Good Luck. Give Barkley a hug from me. Judi |
| One of my shelties does that, because she is very playful, but Bosley is too rough with her. Is it at all possible that Barkley is being too rough with her, so she is telling him off? She may be teaching him to play nice. Or she is just being a B....ch! LOL Have you been able to go over her from head to toe, to make sure she is not sensitive somewhere on her body?
I would monitor thier interactions, and when you see thinkgs getting out of hand call themboth to you, make them sit and give them a small treat. Then a short time out, for peace. Then let them go again. Do this so they can enjoy enach other's company, but the play does nto get too escalatedso it gets out of hand. It is difficult to see what signals are being given by who with out actually seeing it live. Dogs have very sublte language that we, as mere humans< sometiems miss. |
| I've done some grooming with her, but she only tolerates so much for so long--so I havent' been able to go over every inch of her. She's matted pretty badly. Barkley does tend to get rough, but this seems to happen before that point. She'll put her paws up to play with him and the min he puts his paws up in return she growls, then when he does it again--she bites him. They are in the midst of a power struggle too, which isn't making it any easier to figure out what's going on. I honestly believe she simply doesn't know how to play. I'll start to play with her with a ball and she's all excited and her butt will be wiggling then all the sudden her hackles go up and she starts growling. I'll stop and pet her and calm her down. Unfotunately Barkley doesn't stop immediately--and that's usually when he gets bit. I know those of you who do rescue have probably seen a lot of this--but she just seems so very wounded. It's almost like she doesn't know how to be a dog. |
| Oh--I should add for those of you that don't know. Sheba was pretty severely beaten and abused before she was rescued. I don't know all the details. Since then, she's been bounced around to four or five foster homes. Apparently, she hasn't been able to fit in anywhere. Cynthia had her from October till I brought her home Sunday. She was justing getting comfortable. Cynthia says she would have kept Sheba, except that she didn't get along with one of her other dogs. She seemed to be fine with her two puppies. It's really important to find a way to make this work! |
deograine wrote: I'll start to play with her with a ball and she's all excited and her butt will be wiggling then all the sudden her hackles go up and she starts growling. I'll stop and pet her and calm her down.
You are amazing for being so sensitive to Sheba's issues. I am totally confident you are going to work through this with her. I don't have experience with this, but I have watched alot of Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan and he says that petting the dog after it has exhibited a behavior you don't like is a no-no. In this case, petting her after she growls reinforces the growl. According to Cesar, petting or comforting a dog that is angry or scared just reinforces the behavior. Instead, you should always be calm and neutral. He may give a "tsk" to the dog for growling to direct it to stop. I am not sure what the "paws up" for playing is. I think of play posture as paws down, elbows on the ground, and butt in the air. Good luck! |
deograine wrote: :lol:
Thanks! I needed a good chuckle this morning! Your are welcome! I try to find humor or a brighter side in tough situations! I have a rescue too and she was also abused (already and at 6 weeks, she had been "tourtured" with burns and such on her ears....). I have had her for 7 years now....I think that with time an patience your girl will be fine. Just keep remembering that, she has been through alot and is going to need to build trust (within the home and all who share it with her) and find her "place" in her new home. I am sure everything will turn out beautifully!! Good luck and keep smiling!!! |
| It's hard when dogs have a tough life that makes them at way. It takes a lot of patience and consistency. Valerie's right though, as much as it feels like the right thing to do, petting will reinforce the growling. Maybe try just stopping the play and walking away from her so she knows that you won't play with her when she gets like that.
I'm on the Cesar Millan bandwagon too. I've been recording every episode and have learned a lot. We've even started to tackle Clyde's insanity with the vacuum cleaner using advice that he gave to a family with a bulldog that shared a similar hatred for skateboards! Watch a couple of episodes and you'll get hooked too! Sad as it is, some behaviors never completely go away even after years after abuse. When I got Lucy, she was 30 pounds underweight, afraid of men, had cigarette burns on her tummy and wouldn't go down stairs. For the most part, she's a perfect, sweet, happy lovable girl but to this day, over 7 years later, off lead, she's still very hand shy and we've never ever hit her to make her feel like she'd be hit. Every once in awhile, she'll meet a man that rubs her the wrong way and, though it isn't aggressive behavior, she goes on the alert and starts barking at the man to keep him away from her and us. She did this to the cable guy last week. She was fine until he started moving the cable box around in the entertainment center and then she got to her feet, like get away from our stuff! James said she was just upset because she was afraid he was taking our cable away.  |
ButtersStotch wrote: Valerie's right though, as much as it feels like the right thing to do, petting will reinforce the growling. Maybe try just stopping the play and walking away from her so she knows that you won't play with her when she gets like that. I never really thought of that! ButtersStotch wrote: I'm on the Cesar Millan bandwagon too. I've been recording every episode and have learned a lot. . I've heard so much about that show, unfortunately I gave up TV in the 80's haven't had one since. Maybe I can persuade one of my Kids to record it for me! |
deograine wrote: I've heard so much about that show, unfortunately I gave up TV in the 80's haven't had one since. Maybe I can persuade one of my Kids to record it for me!
No TV? I think I just had a heart attack. Like I said, even Lucy needs her cable...  |
Quote: I've heard so much about that show, unfortunately I gave up TV in the 80's haven't had one since. Maybe I can persuade one of my Kids to record it for me!
OMG. I think I'd die.  |
| me tooo. i cannot live without HBO. |
ButtersStotch wrote: deograine wrote: I've heard so much about that show, unfortunately I gave up TV in the 80's haven't had one since. Maybe I can persuade one of my Kids to record it for me! No TV? I think I just had a heart attack. Like I said, even Lucy needs her cable... I can't imagine life without TV. I get kind of bummed out in the summer when everything is a rerun. We watch a lot of TV. I do know a few other people in my life that don't have TVs. Maybe I'd sleep and have sex more often without one!  |
| The 80s was when my tv addiction began...
My mom kept telling us to go out an play it was a nice day, etc...so we moved the tv so we could see it through the windows and we took chairs outside and sat outside and watched the tv in the house...  Mom thought we were inventive, but didn't cut it--she then made us go MOVE around.  |
| That's was the biggest motivation for getting rid of it. I wanted to force the kids to be active, creative and I also hoped it would turn them into avid readers. It worked pretty well. They still don't care much for TV, though they are pretty addicted to movies. |
| We never had cable growing up so now, as somewhat of adult, I have every channel I can have. I can't live without my animal shows. I watch the educational stuff more than I care to admit too! |
| I've made the mistake of reassuring my dog for exhibiting nervous behaviour at the vet, or barking at people at the door, with petting and soft words. I didn't realize it was a mistake at the time, but I made sure not to make that mistake with Sky.
I would let them sort it out to a point, but anything dangerous needs to be curbed. Perhaps crate one or the other when it gets too rough? Maybe that will give them time to get used to each other being around without being in each others faces? Re: no tv.... |
| I think kids are either going to be readers or they aren't (not that you can't influence them or anything), but my older brother and I LOVED to read and would tear through books in an instant, but my younger brother never cared much for reading.
I think it is all about moderation. We were pretty much allowed to watch tv whenever (even while doing homework--I actually study better with noise) and we turned out fine. We were also very active in sports and church and stuff, so we did more than just watch tv or play nintendo... I have friends who weren't allowed to watch tv or only very limited amounts of it, and they have turned out like Jill.
ha ha ha...just kidding, jill! but seriously, they love their tv now that they are grownups... |
| Well one of my turned out wonderful, and the other--well lets just say he's still trying to find himself
On a happy note Barkley and Sheba played for about 10 min tonight before she bit him. Her endurance is growing. I watched them closely and believe this is all the whole dominance tug o war they are engaged in. Maybe once that whole question gets settled it will get easier. Barkley is annoying her--he's chewing her ears at every opportunity. She's walking around with a wet ear all the time. I got to tell you though, she sure is a sweet loving gal. She has the softest most timid little whine. When I got home, before I opened the door to the guest room I heard her--it was so sweet. She doesn't answer to Sheba at all--but she will come to me if I call her wiggle butt. |
barney1 wrote: I have friends who weren't allowed to watch tv or only very limited amounts of it, and they have turned out like Jill.
Very nice, Steph! 
Actually we lived so far out in the country, we couldn't get cable! It wasn't a matter of not being allowed to watch! I've always been a big reader too. Since we lived so far out in the country, I had no one to play with so I learned how to read by the time I was three. I still read a lot but now I have the TV on while I do it! My mom can't understand how I can concentrate like that but I like having all the noise around me. I hate complete silences. Plus, it's like multitasking. |
| Couple of points I'd like to make about the doggie play and the growling. First of all, a growl is a good thing. You do NOT want to supress a growl. A growl is a warning. That is it. It is the dog saying "I don't like that." Why would you want a dog NOT to tell you when he doesn't like something? If the dogs are playing and Sheba growls at Barley she is saying "I don't like that". He continues and she bites him. That is the proper escalation of events. If she didn't warn him with the growl she would just skip the growl and bite him. At least she is warning him, and he is chossing not to listen. The same with the playing with you. I suspect she is not used to it, and it makes her aprehensive. When she growls she is saying "I don't like that", so you can respond appropriately. She hardly knows you, and hasn't had a good background with people, so why she she trust that you are not going to hurt her? History has taught her otherwise. She needs time to develope trust in you. It doesn't happen overnite, and sometimes takes months, years even. She has not had a normal rearing, so she cannot be expected to react normally. Give her time, and find some ways to play or interact that she and you can both relax and enjoy.
As for TV, I grew up without cable, and hardly watch it now. I could live without it I like the internet much better, casue I chose what to "watch", and no commercials! My kids are TV addicts, though. I wish I had time to read more! |
Annie's Mom wrote: Maybe I'd sleep and have sex more often without one!
I wish it had done that for me--no luck though! |
Bosley's mom wrote: Couple of points I'd like to make about the doggie play and the growling. First of all, a growl is a good thing. You do NOT want to supress a growl. A growl is a warning. That is it. It is the dog saying "I don't like that." Why would you want a dog NOT to tell you when he doesn't like something?
The growling isn't what bothers me. I guess its the fact that right after she bites him and he goes away and leaves her alone she goes and finds him and starts it all over again. The same with the play with me. I'll be playing with Barkley and she will come over and start to join in and then after just a second or two she's growling. It's almost as if she wants to play but the play makes her scared and anxious--which makes perfect sense, unfortuntely Barkley doesn't understand that she's had a rough history, or that she's been abused. All he knows is that she tries to get him to play with her and when he does he gets bitten--that's the part that bothers me. I suppose after enough times he'll completely refuse to play at all, which would be sad. And I don't want him to become scared of playing with other dogs--because he is so open and happy go lucky. I'm trying to figure out how to help her, without doing damage to Barkley in the process. |
| I'm not sure I have an answer any more than the other posts. My situation is very similar. Maggie, an abused rescue was described to me by a lady who has a degree in animal behavior as a "domineering bitch", while Barney, who is in his teenage period is too old for her to treat him as a pup and old enough that he doesn't like to play second fiddle. When I first put them together I thought they would kill one another. I kept them separated then until this lady explained the situation and showed he how to control their behavior when it got too rough. By requiring them to cease, sit in front of me and be quiet. When they did this they would get a treat. If they started to get up they'd get a "ah, ah". Now when they get too rough I may clap my hands to get their attention, then "ah, ah".
As for the position of the paw, it maybe an attempt to place the paw on the shoulder of the other - a signal of dominance. She may also hump him for the say reason. But I don't think they readily think as we do: "I guess I better lay off if I don't want to get hurt" Instead, Barney will pick up a rope bone walk over to Maggie, and of course she will grab it and take it away from him; or he will walk past her with a toy as if to say "I dare you". Similarly, Maggie will pick up the same rope bone and dangle it in Barney's face and when he goes for it, will pull it away. That's when thing escalate and when they get too rough I step in. At this point I am more and more discouraging this type of "play" altogether. Strangely enough there doesn't appear to be any of this while I'm at work. I think they sleep all day; although both are in the same kitchen area. As for TV. I don't have one either, and don't know when I'd have time to watch one if I had one. I have all I can do just keeping up with the posts on the forum. Be patient, I don't think the guys will really hurt one another. Just don't get your hand in the way when they are mouthing each other. The other evening I was holding the rope while Barney had it in his mouth. Maggie went over to take it away from him and got my hand instead. When I showed her the damage she began licking it to make it better. |
| Ok...so I sort of understand the growling at Barkley thing. But does anyone have any idea whatsoever why she would face a wall, with her head looking down at the floor and stand there growling at it for 20 min or so????? |
| Hmmmmmm!.....?????....?????....??????
I haven't a clue.  |
| It almost seems as though she's having some sort of recall to a prior traumatic event- like when a child that got bit by a snake starts crying anytime they see one??? Seems like she's had a really, really hard past. You might want to consider getting a professional behaviorist in to help you... Maybe she needs some puppy therapy? that's really the only thing I can think of... Poor baby!!!! |
| It could be a physiological mental issue too, sad to say.
If stuff like that continues, or mental confusion seems to be a frequent occurrence, it may be more than just a behavioral issue. Continue to be careful, and watchful... |
| I agree with Ron. We had a bearded collie that would just sit and stare at the corner of the wall (no growling, though) and we were kids and thought that the dog was just stupid.
But it only started when she was several years old and continued until she died. Someone mentioned that could be a symptom of doggie alzheimers, where they just forget where they are...and with that as a possibility for dogs, I would think that another sort of mental issue could be at hand with Sheba. |
| Maybe she is having trouble with her eyesight. That could also be why she's staring at walls and growls when playing.
Something similar happened with Mom's dog Pandy years before her eyesight completely disappeared. She also didn't want to go potty at night. In hindsight, we now know that her night vision went first. |
| Stacy,
That is definately something I hadn't thought of. I'm trying to get some paperwork on Sheba so find out when she had her vacinations. I was told they were all up to date--but I have nothing to show that. I hate to have her re-vacinated if it was done recently. She needs several things--a trip to the vet, a grooming (probably a shave), and her nails trimmed. I will definately have the vet check her eye sight while we are there. Hopefully I will get some information from one of her former foster Moms today. I also thought I would talk to the vet about anti-depressents. I'm not real thrilled with that idea, but if there was ever a dog on this planet that was depressed--its Sheba. If there is a chance they can help her, then I'm willing to try. I've also been looking into natural alternatives to the drugs. Its not all bad news. She is so affectionate with me. She wants to snuggle with me all the time. Barkley gets a little irritated about it, but she is so starved for human affection. I realized last night I have to train myself to be firm as well. It's so easy to give in to a dog that has been through what she has. She jumped up on the bed last night, wanting to sleep there. Since I don't let Barkley sleep with me, I had to be firm with her and take her off, but it was hard. |
| Just a thought. Assuming the behavior is a stimulus/response chain of events; even though you don't know the stimulus that is causing the response, the continuation of the response is reinforcing the behavior. If you can interrupt that chain by a pleasing experience (softly reassuring her, stroking and petting her, getting her attention focused on you to the point she turns away from the wall and stops growling, then rewarding her with a hug, or favorite treat) it may be possible to substitute a different behavior response whereby she accepts your pack leadership as protecting her from the unknown fear. Repeated refocusing would then strengthen the positive behavior and weaken the negative behavior. It may take much repetition at first depending upon how strong the present behavior is ingrained, but once desensitivation occurs the progress may be rapid. Remember the quicker you can intervene and the more consistent you are, the more effective will be the correction. Right now some unknown is bothering her and she doesn't know how to deal with it; it's up to you to teach her.
Anyone else want to respond to this tactic, be my guest; I'm no behaviorist, but I think its worth a try Psychologically it makes sense to me. |
| Hi,
Wow, lots of good info from members here. I agree with that growling is not necessarily a bad thing as in their language they are telling you "stop it". A well socialized dog growls whereas a fear biter or aggressive dog may not give you that signal. Couple things to bear in mind...don't place your hands at the side of her face and hold it and try to avoid putting your face close to hers until you know her really well. In dog language (how they interpret it) eye contact or face to face is a sign of aggression. Notice how dogs avoid this and do the meet and greet sideways? Just to be on the safe side until you get to know her. It's the reason why kids are often bitten in the face more than any where else on their body as the dog misunderstands the signals. Barney mentioned their previous dog staring off into corners and Shaggy my previous OES did this in her old age and probably was getting a bit of dementia. I'd often find her in a corner as if she appeared to forget how to get out. There is medication available that can assist with this. Dogs that have been chained or penned for long periods of time do the pacing as do many animals kept at zoos. The boredom almost drives them crazy. There is many stories of animals like giant apes that have almost become psychotic, due to being caged in cement and metal in days long ago. Fortunately this was a thing of the past as most zoos are now aware that a healthy animal is one that has a natural environment and is kept busy. Not to scare you regarding Sheba as she seems pretty good considering what her past may hold. Just be patient as it does take time for them to trust and learn to play again. I often told the story of Shaggy on here, my previous OES. She was beaten, starved and very abused. Apon adopting her, she was so tiny I was told she was an adult but turned out she was already 1 yr old. The vet could tell by her adult teeth and yet she only weighed 25 pounds! When I first brought her home she had some pretty horrible habits. She nipped, she wasn't housebroken, she barked incessantly if left for even a short time, she'd race out of the house and take off. I took her to doggie obedience where the fellow that ran it was of the school that you're the master...and as a result the whole class was run like that. Shaggy failed miserably. I agree with firmness but in a case of an abused dog - allowing them to trust you is crutial first. Second attempt at obedience, this time with a woman and different methods entirely...Shaggy thrived and placed third in obedience trials. She became a well trained and behaved member of the household. Eventually she went on to become a therapy dog (certified) and we were asked to be placed under contract with the Humane Society to teach people about doggie behavior. We visited hundered of schools and community centers. Hers was a success story and I mention this not to boast but to show that with patience (took a year) and with Panda it also has taken a lot of time. Just make her feel loved and safe and that goes a long way. Be patient with everything you do...just like an abused kid it takes time for them to trust again. Over time you'll get to know what all her little signals mean as each dog is different and as her mom you'll know her better than anyone. Good for you for taking Sheba in your home!!! I wish you all the luck. If you'd feel more comfortable , I'd say change her name as just like Robin aka Panda I gave him a new name to start his new life. Many shelter dogs arrive with no history of their previous name and it only takes them a short time to adapt to a new name. I'll be thinking of you! Marianne and the boys |
| Thanks for all the wonderful advise. You all are just the best!
This week has been pretty much a roller coaster between battling viruses at work and coming home to the "war of the roses"--I'm worn out. I actually thought we were making great progress tonight. Barkley and Sheba actually played for a while and it didn't end with biting--they just got tired. Unfortunately the night ended on a sour note. I washed all the stuffies, because they had become grungy. When I pulled them out of the dryer I put them all in the floor. Sheba proceeded to collect them all and pile them in the middle of my bed and then growled at Barkley whenever he came anywhere near her. Finally I decided to distract Barkley by playing ball. Sheba jumped down and began fighting with Barkley, and for the first time he fought back. It got pretty serious and I had to seperate them. It's pretty clear to me now that a lot of this is a dominance thing--which is almost funny--since Sheeba is afraid of her own shadow. I got the feeling tonight though, Barkley isn't going to relinquish that role easily--so I'm afraid were in for more rocky days ahead. I agree with you Marianne about the name. I haven't changed it yet because I am still considering this a trial period, and I haven't decided yet if I'm going to make this permanent. To be honest my biggest concern is that I haven't fallen in love with this dog yet. I have compassion for her, and all the sympathy in the world. She pulls on my heart strings in a billion different ways--but I haven't been able to get past her issues and bond with her yet--and until that happens I can't really name her. |
| Deo-just to let you know, it took me a long time to fall in love with Barney. It took me maybe around 5 months to really think, I love this dog so much! My last sheepie (who is actually my parents') was just so wonderful and perfect and I just loved her so much, I wanted a carbon copy with my sheepie. Barney was NOT a carbon copy. He had some issues from his previous home and was wild and not housetrained and had/has a water fetish. I thought, What had I gotten myself into? I even contacted a rescue person in my area to take him. But I kept him and now I love him and have accepted him for who he is, not who I envisioned him to be.
I know that what you are dealing with with Sheba is much different, but I just wanted to let you know that it isn't always love at first sight and that things will work out in the end (whether or not you decide to keep her). |
| First of all I want to thank all of you for your advise, input, and especially putting up with all my questions and whining and stuff.
I spoke with one of Sheba's former foster Moms today, and have concluded that I am not the person to try and rehabilitate Sheba (if in fact, she is rehabilitatable)  In fact given her history, I think it was somewhat irresponsible for the person who had Sheba to let me take her into my home with part time child, and full time dog, without a full account of some of her previous behaviors. Sheba's behaviors are not simply typical fear based aggression. The more I learn, the more I believe there may be something organically wrong with Sheba's mind. I decided that I cannot put Aisling, or Barkley at risk by keeping her in my home. I will contact Cynthia on Monday and return her. If Cynthia doesn't want to take her back. Sheba's former foster Mom told me to call her and we'd figure something out. I do understand now why Barkley has been so protective of me.
I still think Barkley needs a playmate so I will keep looking for a rescue that will be a good fit. Thanks again for all your support through this. It has been a huge help! |
| You need to do what's best for everyone in your house. I do agree that it was irresponsible that they let Sheba come to live with you if they knew something was definitely wrong. I think she needs a very quiet home with one on one attention and to be an only dog. I hope everything is ok. |
| Sorry deograine that it did not work out with Sheba but you are correct and your grandchild and Barkley come first. Hope you have better luck next time trying to find a buddie for Barkley. Personally you are doing the right thing for everyone, sounds like she really needs to be in a special furever home with one on one attention.
Best wishes to you all and don't despair there is that special fur baby out there waiting for you and barkley. |
| Hi,
I'm terribly sorry it didn't work out for you and no one can fault you for trying.Poor Lil Sheba she definately has some issues and I'm hoping the right family comes along for her. From the moment I saw her , how I wished I could take her. If circumstances were different and I only had Panda and Merlin I would offer to have her sent to me. Blue is aging and although I fear his eventual passing with a fear in my heart. I know I'll be comforted that I'll then take in an older female. I really want to know what happens with this girl, please keep us posted. Marianne and the boys |
| Wow, what a rollarcoaster ride!
I just wanted to say that I really admire and respect your hardwork with Sheba. And also to let you know that you are doing the right thing, as I suspect you feel a wee bit guilty? This is the best thing for Sheba...she really does need a home without another dog, at least for a while, so she can get the attention and training she craves. Good luck on your search! |
| I've been feeling pretty horrible about it. Last night I put them in seperate rooms and went back and forth between the rooms to make sure neither would feel neglected. Sheba did much better, she was affectionate, and even a little bit playful. I'm convinced in the home as an only dog with someone who was experienced with rehabilitation, she could do well.
I guess my big concern now is giving her back to Cynthia. Cynthia has 4 dogs and I think as long as there is competition, Sheba is going to have issues. Cynthia didn't keep her because of the issues she was having with one of her dogs. And to be honest because Cynthia wasn't completely forthcoming with me about Sheba, I'm concerned that she may end up incorrectly placed yet again. So I'm trying to figure out a way to handle the situation. Thanks for the post. The support I get from this group is tremendous, and highly valued! On a good note I've been talking with the Rescue Organization here and there are a couple of dogs available for adoption. One of them is a male. The other is the female Devyn that is listed on PetFinders. I should be getting pictures and more information about the male this evening. I'm sure I will find a compatible playmate for Barkley. I just hope I can find a great situation for Sheba as well. |
| Hi, I am Ingrid, the placement director of the oes rescue of the south east and we had Sheba and found her a home after Cynthia handed her over to us. Two days in the new home, she growled at the people, so we took her back and Alison was her foster mom. She also bit and growled at Alison, so we both talked about it and I felt that she needed to be put to sleep. Believe me, if Alison can't help her, nobody can.
She had one hard to handle oes before and Nikki is doing just fine in his new home. Cynthia wanted Sheba back and she told me that she would keep her and not adopt her out again, so I thought that would be ok. Then Alison told me that she was up for adoption. I do not read the list all the time, I am too busy with rescue. First I thought maybe she got better, but with what I am reading here, well I would not let a rescue dog bite one of my own dogs, no way. Put her down, I know that sounds harsh, but we don't need a biting dog. There are so many sweet sheepies out there that need to be rescued. This behavior will not be tolerated. She could bite a child and than you have a law suit on your hands. We can not safe them all, one thing Annie, The Great one, said, and she is right, we do not run a no kill shelter, as hard as it is , sometimes we have to put one down. Ingrid |
| Ingrid,
I dont' think it sounds harsh. It's pretty much the same thing Allison told me on the phone when I talked with her this weekend. She knows her far better than I do. I've only had her for a week and a half. Barkley is my first dog and I have no experience with this. My first thought was to just give her back to Cynthia, and let her decide how to handle Sheba, then I thought about the fact that she may turn her over to someone else and not disclose everything about Sheba's history to them--in the same manner that she did with me. Then I would be part of the chain of responsiblity if someone got hurt. I know Cynthia cares very deeply for Sheba and sometimes your heart clouds the good judgement of your head. I certainly understand that. It's playing havock with mine. My head tells me that Sheba is not enjoying her life. She doesn't play, she isn't happy, and she's confined to a crate most of the time for the safety of the people and animals around her. My heart on the other hand--doesn't want to be the one to make that decision. |
| I can't offer expert opinion on much, and certainly not on Sheba since I haven't seen her personally and at depth. I would have to trust the opinion of Ingrid.
I can say that the Great One used to tell me about my first rescue dog that if I didn't have him, he would have been PTS, since he was biting me pretty good every now and then. We have no children and no other pets. Ingrid, if you have a chance to read/respond... is Sheba a candidate for a situation like ours, or is she jsut too aggressive? I'm guessing the answer is the latter, because I think she would have said otherwise to begin with. |
| I am really upset as to what is considered the option for Sheba at this time. I haven't seen her and yet I say , Don't put her down! In a home without the distraction of other pets and children, she may find ultimately the right fit. Ron may be that fit!
Working with disabled children and those deemed hard core teens, I never am of the mindset you give up. There is always hope. With the children I often work with, sometimes I don't even have acknowledgement or a response from them until 1 -2 years. Some autistic children may take over a year before you get signals that you have developed a bond with them. That is my job and it's much the same with some animals. Panda, my rescue was deemed vicious, aggressive, a biter, the list went on. Yes, It is hard work and frustrating but for those willing to put the time and effort in, there is hope. It's taken almost two years of daily work with my boy and he's now the most loving and gentle dog. Everyone too said he should be put to sleep. He was given a death sentence the very day I say I'd take him. Last thing the three kennel people said and well as the vet when Panda was put in a crate to be shipped to me was "whoever takes this dog is %## nuts". It took me six weeks to touch the top of his head, months before I could groom him...and for every step forward it was a step back. Please click on my photos and see the "vicious dog" with is little buddy a tiny 4 lb chihauhau, or kissing his feline friend, sleeping quietly amongst his dog friends, and even giving the bunny in the family a friendly lick. While his transformation has been miraculous that doesn't mean one ever lets their guard down or becomes complacent. It means always remaining aware and diligent of the surroundings and never allowing potential situations to arise. This same dog saved my teen sons life when he was in the middle of a seizure and I wasn't home,curled his body around my son while he was vomiting and prevented him from aspiration. All the while frantically licking my son's arm. I walked into that scene. Saulmr on this forum said a life for a life, you saved his and now he's returned the favor. I am glad I took a chance on Panda and out of all the dogs I've ever had the pleasure of living with - he's turned out to be the most devoted of all. I knew that whatever happened to him previously and no matter how vicious he was deemed, it was as a result of how he was treated in his past. The transformation doesn't happen overnight but for those willing to put the work in...it can happen. I may be thought of as too softhearted but with those children I work with and over 30 or more rescue animals I have taken in...each deserves at least a chance. As long as there are those willing to take a chance on them..they should be given the opportunity. I have no doubt that those you spoke of are very dog experienced people but I'm also of the mindset for every person willing to step up - they should be given the chance. In my area there is a facility that will take in rescues that were given no hope and do rehabilitation work with them. They particularly like taking in herding breeds. As a result of the rehabilitation all the dogs they have worked with have had a second chance at life. Please give Ron a chance to try with this girl. He has the dedication, resources and the ability. Marianne and the boys |
| Unfortunately Ron has another dog at the moment, I made a mistake when I said: Ron wrote: We have no children and no other pets. I should have said Quote: We had no children and no other pets at that time. Sorry for the confusion. |
| Marianne, I have an autisic son and also help with mentally challenged people. Two of my oes are therapy dogs, I am also a trainer, assisting in training dogs in the therapy field, I worked as a vet tech for 16 years, so I have lots experience in dogs. Have been in rescue most of my life.
I know there are dogs that can be turned around, like Ron said, he had one, but we need to look at dogs on the individual basis. You can not say that this worked for the dog that Ron had, so it works for any other dog. Not so. I have a feeling that Sheba was dumped because of her behavior, not because she was abused. Nobody knows, we all seemto think if its a bad dog, it had to be abused, not so. I came across many dogs with bad behavior at the clinic where I worked and those dogs had wonderful homes and loving owners. I believe it's all in the breeding. Once again the back yard breeders got us stuck with a bad bred dog. It is not up to me to make the decision to put her down, I am just giving my opinion. The more she is passed around, the worse she will get. Ron, if you think you could help her, I think you would be the person to take her, you have experience. I just hate for her to go to another home where the person has no experience and someone would get hurt. That would be very irresponsible on our part, us knowing her behavior. Ingrid |
| Like I said above, right now I have another dog, and I am also enjoying
1) not having to tiptoe around my dog, 2) not worrying about my dog biting a stranger. 3) not being bitten by my own dog because he didn't like something I did or asked him to do. 4) not having my dog bite my cousin's ankle because she presented him with a rawhide then walked by him in a hallway. 5) not having my dog bite Joan because she was holding him while I looked at his paw. I had lots of puncture wounds from Jake, up and down my arms and hands. For instance, did you ever realize that there is basically nothing under the skin between your thumb and index finger? It was a very special relationship. He was a great dog in lots of ways, except he liked to eat ham off of me once in a while. Even if I didn't have Mulligan right now, I don't think I'm ready for another 10 years of that. |
| Ron: I knew what you meant.
Marianne: I understand how you feel. I cried for an hour last night trying to figure out what to do. And I decided --I'm taking the cowards way out. I'm returning the Sheeba to Cynthia. I just dont' feel like I have enough history with Sheba, or enough experience with these kinds of behavior problems to make the decision to end her life. I hope and that Cynthia will never adopt her out to anyone again. If she does then I will be partially responsible if something happens to someone down the line. I pray that she will either keep her and work with her, or make the decision that she cannot fix Sheeba's issues and put an end to it. I appreciate everyones input, advise, and support. |
| You're not being a coward. You're doing what's right for your family. It's not fair to put them at risk and you recognize that Sheba is not working in your household. There's no shame in that so don't feel bad. You tried and that's what counts! |
| You are not being a coward. For one thing, you yourself have said again and again that you are not an experienced dog owner. Not that you would have to be to make this situation work, but it might help, or it might help you feel more confident in dealing with Sheba. And since you're not, that's no one's fault. You tried and Sheba just had too many things going on with her that didn't work for you or your family or Barkley. It would be unfair if you kept this dog out of guilt for the next 10 years and had to walk on eggshells around her, or whatever.
Also, you are not in any way responsible for any future situation that might occur with Sheba. Just because you didn't keep her doesn't mean you have failed in any way and it doesn't mean that you should think that it is your fault if anything happens. She is going back to someone who would be the responsible person if anything happened, because she knows of Sheba's history and if she chooses to let her into a situation that might not be safe, then that is her fault and not yours. I'm sorry that it didn't work out. |
| Please don't beat yourself up about your decision to give Sheba back. I think I would do the same thing if I were in your situation. |
| You are doing what you are supposed to do, if it don't work out, you send the dog back.
If anyone is at fault here, it's me. I am the placement director of our rescue and I should have put her down. I knew better, she already bit several people. I had talked to Cynthia because I felt she needed to know how I felt about Sheba and that we were putting her down. Cynthia told me that she would take her back and keep her and I thought that would be fine. She had done rescue for 5 years and I never thought that she would adopt her out again knowing her history. I am very sorry that you got stuck with her and I know it turned your family upside down. Ingrid |
| I had Sheba for 4 or 5 months. Ingrid is absolutely correct. I hate it and I would love another alternative but I don't think there is a good one.
Ron, as I told Dee and Tammy, her "bad behavior" only got a lot worse (this is nothing yet) once we had her for over a month. She was great with my son and loved him. She was good with my dog, who is a female also around the same age. It was everyone else that ever came over to my house that was the problem. Sheba would growl and try to bite every visitor that came over, every time the came over. And the better she knew them the worse she was about trying to bit them. For instance, my best friend lives next door and my parents live down the road. They come over to my house almost daily! She tried her hardest to bite them the most, and they are great dog lovers, and dogs love them. Now, if she goes to someone who has experience with this and she does get better (if she does), she will get worse for a while first! That aggression is going to have to go somewhere. Also, if she was with me now, I would have her crated or mussled when ever she was out of her crate if there was even a remote possibilty of someone coming over. KNOW, I didn't do that when she was here before as a rescue. NO NO NO! But, owning a dog that bites is a lot of responsibility. Like Ingid said, a child could get hurt and then we would have a law suit on our hands. she is an aggressive biter not a fear biter and there is a difference. On that note if anyone is interested and has experience please step forward!! We would love to hear from you. Know that it would be at your own risk. Alison, Gage and Lucy (Thumper is over the rainbow bridge) |
Sorry, I wasn't logged in. Thought I was! I post under Lucy/Thumper my pets am my name is Alison. 
It keeps booting me out when I try post under my log in name. Sorry about any confusion! alison |
| Thanks everyone for your support through this. I sent an email to Cynthia early this morning. I will keep you updated. I hope to hear something back so I can take Sheba back to Tennessee this weekend. And certainly if anyone out there knows what their doing and is willing to take on Sheba's issues let me know. |
| I am so heartbroken for you...I swear I can feel your anguish thru the posts.
You did and are doing a tremendous thing with Sheeba, I hope you know that. You tried your best and you are doing the right thing to return her to Cynthia. Hugs |
| I just got a response from Cynthia. I've arranged to take Sheba back to her on Saturday. |
| Hi,
Alison thanks for more input as to Sheba's behavior and thanks to you as well for trying with this girl. Deograine, hugs sent to you as well as I know you really tried. Thanks to those that gave further input too. The whole situation is heartbreaking. Marianne and the boys |
| Ok I don't want to start up the Sheba debate again, but for my own education I would really like to get perspectives on this.
I stayed home from work today because I was sick. I didn't feel like making the runs between the rooms for the dogs so I put Barkley and Sheba in the same room and filled up a pitcher with ice water--just in case. I gave them both a marrow bone and put Sheba on one side of the room and Barkley on the other out of eye shot. Barkley doesn't really know what to do with a bone yet--he just basically gnaws on it for a few hours to get the good stuff off the outside and then he's finished. Sheba is apparently much more bone savy. I'm on the bed reading posts on OES org when suddenly I hear a crack--Sheba has broken her bone in half and now is working on the inside. Barkley hears this too, and goes over to investigate. Now Barkley's mouth is watering because he realizes there are more to these bones than he knew about so he lays down less that a foot away from Sheba and starts slowly inches his way towards her. She looks up, and ignores him (yes ignores him!) Eventually he reaches the half of the bone she isn't working on and grabs it--she just looks at him and goes back to to chewing on her half of the bone. I get up and go over there. (getting ready to break up a fight) and they are laying--paws touching chewing on these bones. I decide now would be a good time to try and get some of the matts out of Sheba's coat. After about 20 min she rolls over on her stomach. I think she wants a belly scratch, but no--she wants to play--with Barkley! I think he is as shocked as I was. She stands up goes over and proceeds to start licking him and then they begin to wrestle and play. Mind you, there has not been one growl or snap or nip through their whole interaction. Later they go back to chewing on their bones and I hear another crack. Sheba has broken her bone up into pieces. Instinctively I go over and grab all the peices away from her. I didn't even think about it because Barkley would let me take food right out of his mouth without protesting. If I'd been thinking I would have offered her a trade. But I just didn't want her swallowing little pieces of bone so I just grabbed them. She did absolutely nothing. After I threw them out she walked over and gave me several wet sloppy (quite smelly) kisses. I've always heard that rescues tend to be on their best behavior for the first few weeks and then show their true character--have any of you ever heard of the opposite happening? (oh just so you know--I couldn't make the trip to take Sheba back to Cynthia because of the bad weather this past weekend) |
Quote: I gave them both a marrow bone and put Sheba on one side of the room and Barkley on the other out of eye shot.
This something I never, ever do. High valued snacks like rawhide or bones are always handed out in crates or behind barricades in my house. Even my dogs who have known each other all their lives will scrap over these. I never take a chance. On the other hand, Dixie and Bosley share their food bowl very nicely. I feed them separately, but if one finshes early they walk over and help themself to sharing the other's, with no problem. One good thing about this is that Dixie is now gobbling her food down! Nothing like a bit of competetion. Oh, yes, and after meals Bosley cleans off Dixie face, beard, and even licks the inside of her mouth. And then she licks his mouth back. It is like they are kissing! Yuck! |
| First I wanted to say it's nice to hear that Sheba is showing a different side to you.
My situation is completely different from yours but I experienced late blooming behavior with our adopted female. Frank was 1 at the time and we brought home a 5 y.o. un-spayed female. I knew where she was coming from, so I was fortunate enough to know that she was from a loving home and had a good temperamant. The first couple of weeks she came home with us she went into heat. She was overly protective of herself & her food, bones, etc. from Frank only. She repeatedly put Frank in his place by snapping & giving warning bites. After she was out of heat she slowly started warming up to him. Over the last 8 months they do interact and play regularly but it's always on her terms. She doesn't snap at him anymore or show any type of property/food aggression. I don't know if it was because she wasn't spayed (she's spayed now) or if it was because she had to always compete with other dogs for things and now she knows Frank is submissive to her. I can only say from experience that each day she seems to become more & more social. She's always been loving to the people in our household so that was never a problem which I know is different for your household. Could it be that she has just been trying to establish an alpha role & now that she trusts her environment she is becoming a better behaved girl? I'm sorry that I can't give you that answer, and if you've already come to terms to giving her back, I can only imagine how this good behavior must be tearing you apart. ~VerveUp |
| I'm sorry, I was just reading this whole thread again and I didn't realize that she was so affectionate with you. I know that you explained your circumstances in working with Sheba's behavior but I couldn't help thinking about the book "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=4488 - She has a couple of chapters dealing with fear aggression & dog vs. dog behavior. I'm really wondering if this is an alpha dog issue, and now that the lines are starting to appear between she & Barkley, if things will settle down at your house. I'm sure that Ceasar Milan also has similiar books although I haven't read them. Don't know if you have the time to try working it out between them or not. I know it's a huge undertaking and everyone here will still support whatever decision that you make.
~VerveUp |
Quote: and even licks the inside of her mouth. And then she licks his mouth back.
We call Maggie, our Border Collie-mix, Kaytee's dental hygenist. She does the same thing on occasion.
As for the bones, we never leave our dogs unsupervised during "chew sessions"... I am the referee making sure they play nice. The aggressive dogs (that would be Meesha) are confined by a physical barrier (called a door ). The remaining dogs in the same room are never allowed to go over to any other dog with a chew. I usually view guarding of a chew from an other pack member as a natural instict but not guarding from me. I tell them to leave it and then proceed to pick it up. With my cranky alpha Meesha, I tell he to "give" and she brings it over to me growling most of the time and she allows me to take it. (She would never be happy with me grooming her during a chew session so I respect this.) I also offer a trade on occasion. I respect their limits and don't put them to any unnecessary tests that aren't really fair. I think the key for any dog is to respect the limits and go slow until you learn the dog. Even then they can have an off day.
Is she going to be euthanized? |
| Jaclin,
I agree 100%, and you put it so well. Being the human, I am allowed to remove whatever I want from them, with no arguments. But the dogs, well, they are dogs afterall.... |
6Girls wrote: "Is she going to be euthanized?"
No, I decided even at the worst of the problems, that I did not have the experience, nor the history with Sheba to make that kind of decision. (In all honesty, I doubt I could have made it even if I had) Despite her history, I believe, now more than ever, that Sheba could be turned around. I may not have the skills or the experience to do it--but my instincts tell me that it could be done. Her behavior yesterday, further affirms that. I might be wrong, but I don't believe a dangerously aggressive dog would have allowed me to take a bone right out of its mouth. (Stupid way to test things out I know, but again I did it without thinking) My intention is still to return her to Cynthia. I decided that even if she could be turned around, it needs to be done by someone with expertise that I don't have. I have a big heart, and lots of love but somehow I don't think that's enough. I'm trying to learn as much as I can through this process, and the feedback i get from this group is a hugely valuable resource for that. I learn more everyday. However, I think for now, I need to rescue a dog whoose past has not been quite as traumatic as Sheba's, and who would be safer to have around Barkley, and my granddaughter. I don't know if that's the right thing, or the wrong thing--but I think its the best thing for everyone involved. Sheba deserves to be rehabilitated by someone who knows what they are doing. And I know for a fact that Cynthia will never give up on her. |
| From what I've read she was improperly placed. She needs to be with an someone who has experience with this type of temperament and these issues to see if they can be worked through. Do not feel like you failed. |
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