shock collar help
the point is that ive come to the sad realization that $1000 worth of training and my families and my attempts at helping the situation just didnt work. i see very few other options other than giving him away, using a shock collar, or putting him in his crate at any time i am not playing with him. im scared to use the shock collar, im borrowing it from a friend who has some advice for me but im not going to hire another trainer. im so sick of paying people to help me and then getting screwed out of the money and stressing me out even more. im going to read about it but any practical advice anyone has would be greatly appreciated. i cant give up on this dog, hes my baby  |
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| I don't have any advice to give you sorry =( I just wanted to say I'm so sorry your going through this.
Have you spoken with your breeder yet? It seems that most sheepies don't have really aggressive tendencies, maybe you can ask what's going on? I'm crossing my fingers for you in hopes that someone here will be able to give you some great advice. |
| I can feel your pain. It is a difficult time (how old is he ?) for you and your dog. Punishment is not the way forward, i remember i had a battle just like that one but with my dearly departed Beardie Collie. I put a wrapper on the floor and went to check the TV listings, looked back and Jessie had the tin foil wrapper firmly in her mouth, i asked for her to drop it SHE DIDNT. I took hold of her ruffle on the top of her neck and she went for me....BIG TIME, it was the first and only time she did it. I managed to wrestle her to the ground and held her down by her neck untill she gave up fighting. Fortunately i won this domination fight (i am 6'2" and 210lb) so it was no real supprise, but i was shocked that at 4 year old, she even considered it!!! Just goes to show you.
It is unfortunate that you lost the fight, if you had managed to win, i bet it wouldnt have happened again. You need to recover from this action quickly, and a shock collar (as much as you probably hate the idea) is a good way to teach him who the hell is in charge. But my strongest advice is use it spareingly and dont use it when your angry. Tell him before you use it, if he growls or nips....tell him NO, if he does it again then use the collar after the word NO. It wont take him long to sort himself out. It wont solve the domination problem, but it will help. Domination is something you 2 need to sort out yourselves. [Here are some links to training collars: Command Series Ii Professional Cs2000 (an Excellent Electronic Training Collar) Free Spirit Fs 25a Remote Trainer (about 1/2 the price, probably sufficient for this type of training) -Ed.] |
| Ouch! This is defintely a challenge.
I did find the number of the Old English Sheepdog Club in Chicago - 847.446.7381. Perhaps the folks there can provide some suggestions for resolving this problem. You may also want to check out http://www.doggiedoor.com/doghouse/index2.shtml . I've found this site useful in answering some questions regarding dog behavior. I just checked and they seem to have a large section on agression. |
| Is he neutered? Definitely put him in his kennel when you leave, and stop feeding him from his dish, make him eat his portion from hand feeding. You've probably tried this already, but if he starts making the conection that you are his food source, he may not be so growly. When he was a baby did you play with his dog food while he ate, and take his dish away in mid eating only to return with a treat in it. That helps puppies learn not to be food aggressive with you. Mind you with other dogs they can still be, but I can go touch my dog while eating, touch the food, and take it away, including the treat. I've always been able to take a treat out of their mouths while they are chewing on it. I've had all dogs from dominant to submissive and I've always established very early I am alpha.
I can't think of anything else, you will just need to take a firm stand against him without hurting him or that will backfire. If he senses fear from you he will always win. Keep his collar on, and use the obedience lessons to help retraining him. Make him sit...food...down...food...sit...food...down...food...stay...pause...come...food...stay...come...food...sit...stay....food...etc. Make him WORK for that food. Every meal until he gets it, put a little food in the dish, and try moving your hand around inside, say good boy, etc. Take the food away before he's done, and place a soft treat, or left over meat in it, then give it back. Never free feed, split the daily portion into two, make sure he is there when you place it down, preferably place in a sit stay while you place it down, then give a command to take it. If he doesn't finish it within 10 min, take it away and don't feed him again until your second and last feeding time. Repeat the feeding ritual, making sure he understand he's not allowed to have his food until you say take it. I am sure the other professional help you've been given has gone over this, I'm just sharing what I've done. I've got 2 small kids and you know kids with dogs they protect their food, so after I've been through it I let the kids hand feed, and when the pup is first home they put their hands on the dog while it eats and in the food, so now I don't see food aggression around the kids either. Mind you, when I've had 2 dogs in the house those rules don't apply within the dogs themselves, they will fight each other. Good luck, I hope things work out. If he's coming from a registered breeder, maybe you could trade him in for a more submissive one. I feel bad that you've been given such a dominant puppy, did you pick him, or did the breeder help you with choosing? It's going to be a tough decision, esp considering how much money you've invested. Think about how you can become the alpha, once he sees that, I hope things improve. I'm learning through experience with Remy being my first OES, but I've had other breeds...Boxer, Lab, Shitzu/Bichon, Lhasa, BorderCollie, BlueHeeler Cross, Siberean Husky Cross, and now the OES. 5 males and 3 females. Best of Luck, Bev |
| thanks for all the support and advice, it helps a lot!
walter gets aggressive all the time. he has been aggressive with everyone that lives in my house and my boyfriend who practically lives here but no strangers. he thinks hes top dog, and even though he has repeatedly lost fights with people in the house he still tests the hell out of us. weve tried so much stuff to change his behavior with his food, from feeding him in a crate (this has actually helped a lot because the area for him to protect is a lot smaller) to hand feeding to only feeding when hes being good. he knows all the commands and does them all for treats, to play, and to go outside. the funniest part was that i got him to sit and go down when he was attacking me but the second i moved again he got up and went for my arm again. im sad that i have to resort to the shock collar but i think that its inevitable. im planning on only using it when he gets out of control, the bad puppy behavior i can live with... him attacking my arm i cannot. the saddest part is that hes the cutest fluffiest cuddle monster and he loves his family hes just too wild for his own good. im picking up the collar tonight, im planning on using it over the course of next week, ill keep you guys updated. again, thanks for the links and phone numbers and support. they all help very much! |
| I have done some behavior work with my vet. This dog is very dominent I would not use a shock coller on him he will resort to worse methods of trying to control you. I really mean this a shock collar has the potintal to make this a horrable dog.I know a good web site on behavior they have telephone contact and I don't think it' to expensive. Suzanne Hetts is the trainer and I have been to some of her siminars. I can't remember it just look up suzanne Hetts. I will find it and post it later. |
It's me again the name of that web site is Animal Behavior Associates. I wish you the very best of luck and hope for your sake and your dogs you are able to find something that works.  |
| I am so sorry!! It is really scarry to hear about your situation because this dogs are so so big. I have hear that if they are bred to frequently they can become very aggressive. I had a lab/Choo mix who was 6-8 months old and we had only had her for 5 days and my son was 2 years old. He wouldn't stay in his crib so I sternly put him back in his bed and told him not to get out again. That dog jumped right inbetween us and growed at me the went for my neck. I sold her the next day. I couldn't chance it. MY OES is a pure bred resuce and is a doll. She mouths my son when they play which we are working on but it isn't hard. PLease be careful and let us know how it turns out!! |
| I just read this post about Lil Walty. I hope things have gotten better by now - but I would recommend the same things to you as I did to Ruth in another post.
You need to look into Positive Training methods - you are headed for trouble with this puppy - and a shock collar is going to make it worse! The idea is for him to understand that you are in charge - not for him to be scared to death of you! OES should not be showing these signs of aggression - particularly PUPPIES! This is very alarming! Have you all notified your breeders of these behavior problems??? I urge you to STOP using the shock collar and use only positive reinforcement training!!!! |
| I am so sorry for those of you experiencing this behavior with your sheepies. I completely agree with the others who have posted advice regarding positive reward training, and the "work for everything" method. I have worked with lots of OES and those methods work, but it takes time.
I scanned the replies and these may be suggestions not represented: - take the pup to the vet and have a thorough check up to make sure there are not underlying medical issues - I am one of those people who believe that there is a correlation between aggressive behavior and thyroid levels. There is a body of written material on the subject, usually involving Dr. Nicholas Dodman and Dr. Dodds. If you do a Google search for "dodman and dodds and thyroid and aggression" you should find them. I would have your dog's thyroid level checked by your vet, with test sent to either U of Mich, or Hemopet - have these pups spayed/neutered at the earliest possible time. If they are not CH breeding material, they should not be bred. If their aggression is this serious, you don't want to breed them and pass it along. Best wishes to you and we are hoping for the best! |
| sigh... thanks for the continued support it helps. i wish my breeder provided support, instea dthey just give me the runaround everytime i call and act soo suprised that i have an aggressive pup
but anyway, i have not yet used the shock collar on walter, i just dont have the heart to shock my baby.. however i am coming down to the wire here and i have not entirely ruled it out. i understand that positive reinforcement is the best way to go. walter has had 2 trainers, the first used very positive reinforcement and the second used a mix. the first trainer was not effective at all. walter would do anything and everything we asked if we had a treat in our hand but if we didnt, it really depended on whether he felt like sitting or not. walter works for every meal, walk, potty break, car ride, treat, water etc. he does sit, down, stay, come, and give paw. i think hes a very smart sheepie and im proud of him when he does the commands. i just do not understand how i can use positive reinforcement to stop a dog from attacking me because hes afraid im going to take his food or something else.i will not go to another trainer and i cant just sit around thinking that if he sits and stays for me that he wont freak out at me again. i tried using a choke chain and giving him a tug every time he did something wrong and it definitely worked for the behaviors that pos. reinforcement wouldnt correct. he knows drop it now is slowly learning not to jump (very slowly haha) but the choke chain, treat training, positive reinforcement and anything else i can think of wont stop him from attacking my arm when he gets in his freak out mode. the past couple of weeks i have just been avoiding the situations that i know will make him go nuts (messing with his food, re-entering the house if i forgot something, entering his room in the morning or night) but i cant avoid it forever. i wanted to get something out of the dryer this morning and it had to be a big production because i cant cross the gate in the morning and open the dryer without him flipping out. i know that a shock collar will stop this behavior, and i wont use it everytime he does something naughty. i understand that its very serious and thatits not the best way to solve problems but it seems like my only hope right now. i do however thank you for the suggestion to check his thyroids, im making an appointment for the vet next week and i wouldnt have even thought that it could be medical related. i will definitely check that out, thank you for bringing it to my attention |
| Glad you are going to see the vet.
My vet is resistant to the thyroid/aggression hypothesis. After I brought him some of the web articles, he agreed to work with Dr. Dodds at Hemopet in reviewing the thyroid test results. Dr. Dodds has a somewhat different approach than other vets in interpreting the test results. She will talk to you on the phone and is quite wonderful. So, in case your vet is like mine, here are some of the articles on aggression and thyroid: http://www.doglinks.co.nz/health/aggr_theroid.htm http://www.beaconforhealth.org/Thyroid-Aggression.htm http://www.volhard.com/holistic/vteam/bloodwork.htm These are the instructions for submitting a blood test to Dr. Dodds and I would bring the forms and instructions to the vet: http://www.volhard.com/holistic/vteam/H ... stForm.pdf http://www.hemopet.com/ I do some OES rescue work and fostering and have had the pleasure of meeting with Dr. Nicholas Dodman in cases where dogs had serious behavioral problems. He has several good books out that should be available in your local library and you are already following some of his usual suggestions. He usually explores: -diet (protein level of food for an aggressive dog should be below 18%); -exercize (a tired dog is a good dog); -obedience training (work for all rewards) -use of a "Gentle Leader" head collar/halter device both in the house and outside, the notion is if you control the head, you control the dog and there are good instruction materials with the device -use of medication, most notably Prozac You might want to discuss some of these issues with your vet also. I wish someone from the Chicago area OES rescue group could offer you some support, perhaps it's worth giving them a call or drop them an email? I think they are: Grace Fujikawa wynward2@aol.com 847-446-7381 Jeri Hoppe Fannykin@aol.com 847-426-5708 Again best wishes to you and your misbehaving boy. |
| Walter's Mom,
You should read the book, The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior, by Bruce Fogle, Anne B. Wilson. It's really interesting and will give you some insight into Walter's aggressive behavior. I also recently read, and I think Kim (Merlin) mentioned it in a previous post - look into a lower protein diet. High protein diets have been linked to aggressive behaviors. Have you tried "hand feeding"? I am sorry to hear that your breeder was no help (that's unfortunately part of the problem - these breeders aren't responsible and are breeding dogs with aggressive traits). You are NOT alone - I've read so many recent posts (on this List and OES-List) from people who have aggressive puppies - it's disturbing! It really sends a clear message to everyone - it is so important to go to a reputable breeder! Good Luck with the Vet appointment - I hope you get some resolution! Kristen |
| Dear Walter's Owner-
You haven't posted about Walter recently--I hope that means things are going better. I train using positive methods, but when you have a dog with serious aggression problems, that is definitely a time to consider using punishment. If you were still trying to make up your mind, I would suggest using the collar under supervision of a trainer--but since it was back in February that you posted, it's a little late to suggest that. I hope the shock collar worked (or something else did) and you have kept your dog. You mentioned that your dog is fine a lot of the time but seems to have episodes where he freaks out. Sometimes, problems like that are caused by neurological problems. I remember reading one case where the dog had a brain tumor removed and was fine. Sadly, that option is out of reach for most people. Best of luck. |
Hi ... I too am interested in how you guys are faring these days. My female OES ( 4 y.o.) is our alpha. Our little boy is 14 mos. OES. There is a notcieable difference in their tempermants. The female was bought from a nearby town. In picking her as a puppy, it did appear to be a "puppy mill" of sorts. The male dog came from over 1 k miles away and has much better breeding ....it's evident in his behavior. He also cost a small fortune (sold some vacation time to buy the boy and have him flown in). It's all been worth it...for both of them. 
 Have had to use discipline methods like: time -out room, muzzle (now all we do is say the word muzzle!), anti-anxiety med. The muzzle seems to have been the most efective. Oh & most of these have been used with the 4 y.o. ( we call her our "outlet" dog).
Anyway....just sending our best to you and your sheepie. I pray it all works out and you have the best sheepie ever !!! 
Diane aka Bumblepatch |
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