OES in USA no tails?
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| Yes, it is the breed standard for the tails to be docked. I believe this stems from England where they weren't taxed on animals that didn't have tails. Most OES don't have tails, but they are born with them. |
| That is a darling picture of your 2 "tailed" sheepies on your avatar!!! The AKC standard does still call for docking, but I'm jealous. I love em with or without their tails!!!
Karen  |
| Ok, I understand, thanks!
Last week I made a little video with my digi so you can watch my girls.. http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=R-RoLSzscag |
| Love the tails! Your girls are so pretty! The video is fun. I had no idea the tail curved up like that. Do they still wiggle their butts if they have tails to wiggle instead? |
| ahh, they're so cute with tails! |
| Duds' bum is all over the place when he's wagging, particularly when I get home from work. I think it's a safe guess that they still wiggle. I wish people would be able to have a choice regarding tails. Duds' tail helps me keep things clean. ~Katie. |
| I love Sheepies with or without the tail. That was interesting to know that the reason they dock them was so they didn't have to pay tax on them in England. I don't get why though.I always thought it had something to do with the herding when their working.
Wow check out the windmills in the video. We don't have many of them in Pa. actually I don't think we have any. I know out west in windy states like Kansas they are starting to utilize them as an alternative power source. I think it was Kansas anyway. |
| I love the tails...and to watch your girls playing on the beach reminds me of our summer in san diego...panda loved the water! they are beautiful! |
We have no choice either, docking is banned here in Australia, only since 2004 so seeing babies with tails now, just a matter of getting use to a new look on the breed. 
Are they wind generators in the background on the beach? |
| In Belgium it is also been forbidden to dock the tails. My last OES who was from Antwerp had a docked tail and then a few years later they forbid it to be done anymore. You can still get them without tails thought since over summer I went back to belgium to visit my mom and got her an OES boy and his tail was docked. I've never seena sheepie in person with a tail but I do think it looks cute in the video. |
| Ha, Ha, Ha Looks like some sheepdogs would like to do Yoga (or stretch... what was that person doing on one leg?)
Great video. Great to see skinny wet legs with big fluffy bodies. Thanks for sharing and MORE VIDEOS PLEASE!!! |
| What a great video!!!
How long did it take to get all the sand out?  |
They're so pretty - love the tails! Sure looks like they enjoy the beach!  |
| Beautiful! Love to see a sheepie with a tail!
Chris |
| loved the video and also wondered how long it took to get all the sand out.
My Daisy is a rescue and still has her tail which I love - it's so fun to see the white flag waving as she runs around and plays. |
Valerie wrote: Love the tails! Your girls are so pretty! The video is fun. I had no idea the tail curved up like that. Do they still wiggle their butts if they have tails to wiggle instead?
No, the butts don't wiggle as much with the tail |
Sir Gucci's Mom wrote: What a great video!!!
How long did it take to get all the sand out? When we come home, the girls go to sleep, when they stand up after a few ours, you will here the sand fall of and that's a lot
Most of the sand will come out of the hair and after brushing it's ok |
| Loved the video!
We have a Sheepie with a tail. I'd have to say no, they don't wiggle like they do when they are docked. Atleast Mallory doesn't in comparison the the Sheepies our family had perviously that were docked. I miss that, but of course wouldn't trade Mallory for anything. |
| The reason for the tail docking in England and not having to pay taxes...it had to do with showing it was a working dog (not having a tail) and therefore you didn't have to pay taxes on it because it was a 'business expense', or at least that is my understanding. The tail itself is just a symbol of that.
The video was great! Those were some wet, happy dogs! |
| What a great video, Thank you so much for sharing it!!!
I had not idea til I joined this forum that sheepies were not born without tails (show how much I knew about sheepies!!). I was so sad when I found out that they are actually cut off when they are born  because I think they are just lovely with their tails. If I am ever blessed to have another sheepie I hope that I can convince the breeder to leave his tail ON. Or that perhaps by then this country will have progressed to the point that we realize what a BARBARIC  tradition it is to mutilate a dog for the sake of appearance, just my opinion of course |
| Nini, I noticed one of your cats is an Abyssinian, beautiful! |
| Though I think the tail looks good, I can't even imagine how dangerous Clyde would be with a tail. He manages to knock so many things off the tables now, just think what he could do with an extra appendage! |
| I love the tails too. No reputable breeder here would ever consider leaving on the tail. I think (I may be wrong tho) that the litter can not be registered (here in Canada) if the tails are left intact. Stacey would know this better than me. I'm just a happy sheepie owner...dont know the ins and outs of the docking issue. I just know we werent able to get a sheepie pup without the tail docked. |
| You're right Kim, no reputable breeder in Canada would leave the tails on. It is not the standard, and the breed is strictly controlled here, as it should be.
Almost every single OES breeder in Canada also shows, so it is truly not an option even if they wanted to. The ones who aren't as involved with showing are still involved on some level. This is always a heated topic when it comes up, so I'm glad to see so far opinions have been expressed civily, and others opinions accepted politely. That's what makes this group a great one!
As for my own opinion, it is a lengthy one so I'll try to shorten it.... Since the beginning of the breed, there have been docked tails. I personally feel the conformation of the dog has been altered due to selective breeding, enough that a tail may cause problems in the joint development, the weight the dog has to carry on a structure that has been bred not to carry it. I feel a tailled oes loses the rolling ambling gait that is also part of the breed standard. I also feel it would be hard to maintain cleanliness, all that hair is in a place that will get dirtier and more matted than any other, not to mention the increase in dingle berries, that poop sticking to fur back there can be dangerous if someone were not cleaning it every time the dog goes. I have seen many tailed breeds with grotesque tail injuries, infection, requiring later amputations which are then far more painful with fully developed nerve endings and hardened bone. With an exuberant, emotive breed like OES, translate all that butt wiggling into tail wagging. I would worry about tail injuries. This is one thing I have not heard of in OES, but, that may be because there aren't many tailed OES to study statistics on. In my opinion, docking a newborn pups tail, while not painless, could be compared to circumcising a baby boy. Controversial yes, but no one is going to tell us we cannot have it done. An OES is a Bobtail. They have docked tails. It is part of who and what they are, IMO. I love that fuzzy butt wiggle!
I prefer them docked, though it doesn't make those dogs with tails any less beautiful, just not what I want. |
Willowsprite wrote: . I personally feel the conformation of the dog has been altered due to selective breeding, enough that a tail may cause problems in the joint development, the weight the dog has to carry on a structure that has been bred not to carry it. I feel a tailled oes loses the rolling ambling gait that is also part of the breed standard. I also feel it would be hard to maintain cleanliness, all that hair is in a place that will get dirtier and more matted than any other, not to mention the increase in dingle berries, that poop sticking to fur back there can be dangerous if someone were not cleaning it every time the dog goes. I have seen many tailed breeds with grotesque tail injuries, infection, requiring later amputations which are then far more painful with fully developed nerve endings and hardened bone. With an exuberant, emotive breed like OES, translate all that butt wiggling into tail wagging. I would worry about tail injuries. This is one thing I have not heard of in OES, but, that may be because there aren't many tailed OES to study statistics on.
In my opinion, docking a newborn pups tail, while not painless, could be compared to circumcising a baby boy. Controversial yes, but no one is going to tell us we cannot have it done. An OES is a Bobtail. They have docked tails. It is part of who and what they are, IMO. I love that fuzzy butt wiggle! I prefer them docked, though it doesn't make those dogs with tails any less beautiful, just not what I want. Stacey, you certainly know a WHOLE LOT more about the breed then I do but I am wondering.... if the OES in Europe don't have docked tails does that mean that their conformation is different? Is the "not docking" of tails new there? Has there been enough time to study those dogs to establish whether the problems you mention happen there? I agree with you that a great deal of the charm of the OES is found in their adorable wiggle buts but when I see videos such as the one posted I can help but feel wistful for what they have lost!! Thanks for your great explanation! |
| Well as lisaoes posted, in Australia is has only been a year, so dogs with tail are not even grown up yet.
I don't actually know how long it has been in other countries, and I'm not sure what, if any, studies have been done there as of yet. In regards to it affecting their conformation, yes I strongly believe it does affect topline, hip position, gait etc. Not through studies, just through pics. I have not seen one in person, but following basic anatomy, it would make sense for it to do so. |
Willowsprite wrote: Nini, I noticed one of your cats is an Abyssinian, beautiful!
2 cats are Abyssinian!!! Baltazar (wildcolour) and DingDing (Sorrel) |
| There has been a legal docking in Australia on an OES since the ban, due to a hooked tail being produced on one puppy. The puppy was docked at 3 days. The vet said it was probably due to the natural bob tail gene that some lines carry. There has been dogs born without tail, stumpy tails and 3/4 tails due to this gene, although very rare now-a-days.
We also have an enormous problem here due to our climate of fly strike so having an OES here with tails is a big issue due to our cliamate. Even though the ban has only been in since 2004 there is still committees working hard to have it reversed. There is a possibility that there is going to be a breed exemption for OES here, but that is still being collatted and forwarded to government. So we shall see what happens, I prefer without tail due to health issues here, and we have a long time to go to see the ones with tails how and what happens here as they mature. |
lisaoes wrote: We also have an enormous problem here due to our climate of fly strike so having an OES here with tails is a big issue due to our climate.
Lisa - what is "fly strike"? |
| In the Netherlands its forbidden to dock since September 1st 2001.
I must say that with the tails, the poop is falling much better down to the ground! My first OES without a tail, she had much more trouble with poop sticking to/on her behind! Also when the puppies begin to walk, there much more stable to the ground because of the tail! My OES breeder was in the beginning very anti, but nowadays he says, i don't understand what i was thinking then 
Dogs use there tails for communication with other dogs, so my girls don't have the problems that my first OES does, some other dogs didn't understand her and now other dogs can see in what kind a mood my girls are in
PS Sorry for my English, but you must try to answer me in Dutch |
| I found this statement:
http://www.wsava.org/Taildock.htm there are countries, which have banned cosmetic tail docking for a considerable number of years; Norway since 1987 and Sweden and Switzerland since 1988. Since 1991, Cyprus, Greece and Luxembourg have also introduced a ban. Tail docking has been banned in Finland since 1996 and Germany since May 1998. Political pressure was exerted in Germany to have hunting breeds exempted, however exempted puppies must be the offspring of parents that were specifically used as hunting dogs, not just hunting breeds. In spite of many claims to the contrary, there is no proof that an increase in tail injuries or serious health problems occurred as a result of the ban on tail docking in these countries. In England, since July 1993, only registered veterinarians can perform tail docking. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has declared that the docking of tails, other than for therapeutic or prophylactic reasons, was unethical. The RCVS stated in 1996, that such docking is capable of amounting to conduct disgraceful in a professional respect, and described such docking as unacceptable mutilation. In Australia, one State, the Australian Capitol Territory has banned tail docking. It is hoped that other States will follow this example. |
Nini wrote: PS Sorry for my English, but you must try to answer me in Dutch
Your english is excellent! Far better than my dutch, only a couple of words and some curse words. LOL |
| Tammy Fly strike is maggot infestation around the anus. We have blow flies here that can strike quickly. Years ago, when the breed was at its peak here, resuce had 3 come in, in a few months that had to be put down due to the severity of the maggot infestation, tooo far gone for treatment. So without a tail, keeping the dags and backside spotless is a must, especially in the warmer months. |
| How many years do you figure it will take before the "people without a direct stake in the issue, but want to offer their opinion anyway" ban circumcision on the same grounds? |
| I think there would be a huge outcry if this were brought up, at least in the US, just because circumcision is done as part of a mainstream religious beleif. Since our (the USA) constitution enforces the seperation of church and state, I find it highly unlikely the government could ever get away with banning circumcisions...
As for national docking and cropping laws here in the US... It is hard to say. I'd hope that we we'd work a little harder on resolving issues that directly affect pet animal well-being, such as over population and abuse versus cosmetic issues. That's just me though
Karen |
| Circumcision also has known and proven medical benefits too.... |
| Not to mention cosmetic.
I'll leave my opinion at that... |
| Okay, Spitting out soda here..... |
| The tail is sooo adorable!!! I am surprised at how curvey they are too! I heard that in England they are starting to leave the tails be as well. In England they call sheepies Dulux dogs (It's a paint company) It's kinda cool to google search "dulux dogs uk" |
mum2sasha wrote: The tail is sooo adorable!!! I am surprised at how curvey they are too! I heard that in England they are starting to leave the tails be as well. In England they call sheepies Dulux dogs (It's a paint company) It's kinda cool to google search "dulux dogs uk" When out with boo thats all you hear is look its a dulux dog and hang on can your dog came paint my house for me. its nearly 4 years since i got her and its now wearing a bit thin. For me shes either a bobtail or an oes but thats just me. |
Darcy wrote: Okay, Spitting out soda here.....
At least I know it wasn't Faygo... |
ButtersStotch wrote: Darcy wrote: Okay, Spitting out soda here..... At least I know it wasn't Faygo... Leave it to this forum to take a subject in an ENTIRELY new direction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  |
Quote: When out with boo thats all you hear is look its a dulux dog and hang on can your dog came paint my house for me. its nearly 4 years since i got her and its now wearing a bit thin. For me shes either a bobtail or an oes but thats just me.
I have only heard the Dulux comment from an English Lady I ran into walking sasha. I had no idea what she was talking about so it was a novelty to hear but I can understand what your saying...I am getting tired of "oh look it's Mister Mugs". Don't you find when people say it,it's like there the first ones to come up with it? I'm with you, she's OES. |
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