Shampooing twice
I have had a terrible time with Mojo's white fur matting (11 months old and full coat). I brush everyday (line brush with a slicker) and still have mats the next. I took him to Petsmart for grooming right after Thanksgiving. Until then I had been doing it myself. He looked wonderful and has stayed mostly mat free since. The few that start, brush right out now. I went back the other day to see if could buy the products they used on him and spent a lot of time talking to the groomer about it. They recommended using a medicated shampoo first to remove any dander and condition the skin. Then condition, leaving it in for at least 5 minutes. After that, use a mild oatmeal shampoo to remove any residue from the conditioner. Said conditioner residue is probably what is causing the matting. |
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| What is the deal with that white fur? That's our hardest part too! How odd though. You'd think conditioner residue would help prevent the matting rather than encourage it. The extra shampoo seems like it would just be a little more drying, but I'm only using human hair as a comparison.
I know I also find that after I get Clyde back from the groomer, he's almost maintenance free for a month too! With us though, they take a lot of the undercoat out which makes it a heck of a lot easier. Are you sure they didn't do any stripping too? |
Quote: Said conditioner residue is probably what is causing the matting. I suppose if you have severely "over conditioned" your dog's hair and not rinsed it out properly then the conditioner "film" remaining on the hair could be trapping particulate dirt which is resulting in a "rough" surface which will mat when rubbed against other similarly "dirty" hairs. Even if this is the case re-shampooing is NOT the answer. The remaining conditioner will tend to repell the shampoo and you will essentially be wasting the shampoo. I also severely question the wisdom of using an exfoliating shampoo! Be it wheat germ, oatmeal etc., _I_ don't think that these dogs' need their skin exfoliated. I also advise against using medicated shampoos unless there is a specific condition present which requires local topical treatment. If the coat is properly washed and they are getting good quality foods, perhaps with skin supplements, then their skin should be perfectly fine without resorting to extreme measures such as exfoliation and "regular" generalized topical medication. One of the most critical aspects of bathing any dog is to use enough water, in pre-wetting, rinsing out the shampoo and finally in rinsing out the conditioner. Now throw in that "little" added compication of the Bobtail coat being a double coat and the other "little" issue of it being water resistant and you have a situation where you need tons and tons of water at every stage of the bath. It generally takes me 1 1/2 hours to bath Virgil Tiberius and a little longer to bath Martin Zephram. Over half of that time is spent rinsing the dog. Because this breed's coat is so thick when the undercoat is retained you need a good spray nozzle on your shower hose and you will need to "wet and rinse them down in layers". When you first "wet down" the dog start at the bottom of an area and work up. For instance on the body, use your "free" hand to hold the hair up and spray a small "line" with the spray head. (I have a pulse feature and find it a great help and gets the dog wetted out much better than a regular spray head.) Make sure the spray head is very close to the dog to keep the pressure as high as possible to help part and thoroughly wet the hair. As the first exposed area is wetted, then release a bit more hair to be sprayed and so on. It is quite similar to line grooming, do one small area well, then progress by small increments. After shampooing or conditioning it is not so easy to lift the hair to rinse it out. If you do lift the hair then you are risking serious matting! The same sort of affect can be accomplished but for the most part you will simply spray the bottom line and work up with the spray head. You can part the hair along a vertical line (parallel to the lay of the hair) and rinse in the parting, repeating the process to help rinse out shampoo and conditioner. The other helpful techniques is to "bury the spray head" in the hair with the water spraying "against the grain" of the hair growth. While doing this DO NOT move the spray head. Simply move the spray head straight in, hold it for a while until shampoo or conditioner bubbles stop and withdraw the spray head straight back. Choose another location and repeat as required. All of this takes a lot of water! One of the things _I_ do is keep my hot water tank temperature very high for dog bathing. This way you are flowing more cold water volume and less hot water but maintian a good temperature so as not to chill the dog and won't run out of hot water so quickly - in fact I have yet to run out of hot water while bathing a dog. HOWEVER keep checking the water temperature just in case. As a matter of fact the other "rule" when I am bathing a dog is that no one uses water until I am done - if someone absolutely has to use water they must let me know first so I can stop rinsing for the duration. Dog safety always come first! Finally, Quote: I brush everyday (line brush with a slicker) and still have mats the next.
I strongly recommend using a pin brush as your primary grooming tool. Slicker brush pins are too short to penentrate the thick coat and as these are pins are only "cut" wire they can do an enourmous amount of damage to the dog's skin. Gently rub a slicker brush over the back of your hand and then usign the same pressure do it with pin brush. Your dog's skin is just a sensitive as yours so you'll quickly get an idea of which is preferred. The slicker is a good tool for helping remove mats and undercoat if you want to strip out teh undecoat but it is not, in my not sso humble opinion, suitable as a general grooming tool for any breed. Anyway, hopefully there are a few comments in here which will help you in caring for Mojo. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| I think one of the things that is being overlooked is that Mojo is still probably blowing his puppy coat. I had the worst time when Frank got to 12 months so I shaved him down. He's 23 months now in full coat and I'm finally seeing now that his new adult coat is finally becoming manageable. I went through the same frustrating thing you did. Would line brush him at night and then by morning I could find mats the size of fists. I really think this is a puppy coat/new adult coat issue. Usual time frame for that will start at 8 months and will continue to 18 months + but every dog is different. |
| Thank you for the input.
They didn't strip his undercoat. He did ask if I use any kind of scrubbing tool. Wanted me to get a "Zoom Groom". It is a palm-sized scrubber/brush with large rubber spikes. Said it really gets out any loose fur when used dry and works in shampoo and conditioner when bathing. If they used something like that on him, would that have pulled out a lot of coat? His fur is still very thick but more manageable. I can see the changes in his gray fur. He has lost a lot of his puppy coat around his shoulders, the back end is still pretty poofy. I am not seeing any changes in the white though. I want very much to keep Mojo in coat. I don't mind the daily grooming, but I do need it to be right and effective. I feel so much has been trial and error. Mostly error some days! I spend probably 20 minutes just getting him wet before starting to shampoo. Thought I was rinsing well but will be sure next time. I have also run the gambit of products. Mostly with the same results. Not good. Is there a particular type of shampoo and conditioner (not necessarily brand) to use? Are there ingredients in them to look for or to specifically avoid? |
A. Yager wrote: They didn't strip his undercoat. He did ask if I use any kind of scrubbing tool. Wanted me to get a "Zoom Groom". It is a palm-sized scrubber/brush with large rubber spikes. Said it really gets out any loose fur when used dry and works in shampoo and conditioner when bathing. If they used something like that on him, would that have pulled out a lot of coat? His fur is still very thick but more manageable.
Do you find him losing a lot of hair? If not, I wouldn't bother using any tools. Rubber spikes just sound like tangles waiting to happen but having never used one, I don't know! It might've stripped a bit. Because they have so much hair, it's hard to tell when some is missing sometimes. As you can see from Clyde's pictures, he's still big and poofy too even without the undercoat (though not as big as Mojo all poofed out!). I think a lot of groomers will do some stripping unless you explicitly tell them not to. In fact, that's how Clyde's stripping began. She told me "He'll be easier to take care of with some undercoat stripped," the second time I went to pick him up. I was annoyed at first but she was right, especially since I never even noticed that she had done it the first time! |
| The groomer doesn't sound like they know the breed IMO... if they are wondering why he isn't losing a lot of coat, it is because he is not supposed to. They aren't supposed to shed like other breeds. So there won't be a lot of "loose or dead" coat like you see in a lab or shepherd or something.
They do lose some when changing from puppy to adult coat, and that is an exceptionally difficult time ot get through as far as grooming goes. I would most certainly get a pin brush and throw the slicker out. LOL |
| But hey, if you were using a slicker the whole time, and Mojo looked that good, wow, you're a heck of a groomer! When you get a pin brush, he's still gonna look awesome and it should be easier on you. |
| I agree with Stacey, sounds like the groomer isn't that familiar with the breed, which is okay, but they shouldn't be making grooming tool suggestions! Everyone here on the forum will be able to steer you in the right direction in that department.
Also even though you can't see puppy coat change in the whites, you will notice the texture changing more to the OES standard harsher outer coat. |
Good Morning! I was reading your post and I thought I would share what I use when bathing my dogs. I must agree that proper nutrition is imperative to good coat and good health. After trying and using several dog foods I have found that Canidae dog food offers the best results with my dogs. When I bath my dogs, which is every two weeks, I use 1 CUP of liquid soap, 1 CUP of vinegar, and 1 CAPFUL of Avon's Skin so Soft bath oil. I put these ingredients in a large watering can and add water. After I have saturated the coat with water I pour the mixture all over the dog's body and massage it into their coats. On Fred, my OES, I will sometimes use a regular shampoo in addition on his white area if he is really dirty. I am not sure that is really needed, that is just my obessive/compulsive nature coming out  . When I am finished shampooing I RINSE, RINSE, RINSE and then RINSE again. On all three of my dogs I have noticed a difference in their coats and their coats have quite a shine and they smell great too. Knock on wood, I have not had any flea problems since using this method. And I have been extremely fortunate not to have any matting problems with Fred's coat, nor any skin problems with any of them. I know that all dogs are different and what works for one may not work for another, but I thought I would share with you what I do. I also use Blue Power Ear Treatment (www.ItsForTheAnimals.com) to clean their ears out, followed by an ear powder. I have not had a single problem with yeast infections or any ear problems since using this solution. My golden retrievers were especially prone to ear infections, I was at the vets office every month buying otomax, etc., and when I first adopted Fred he had an ear infection and this solution works for him. Again I am no expert just sharing what works for me. |
| When brushing between baths I use a pin brush, never a slicker brush and always lightly spritz with a detangling conditioner. I use a human hair detangler, sunflower leave-in conditioning and detangling sprayby Back to Basics. Leasves Taskers hair nice and soft and smells clean and fresh. I was told (don't know if it's so) that the slicker brush can break the hair increasing the tendency to matt and that brushing it dry can also break the hair.
Of course Tasker very seldom has a long coat but by mid winter it does get long enough to matt if not brushed several times a week. |
| Well I gave Mojo his bath the other day.
I used a combination of your tips. I used the Groomax shampoo but, mixed it in a gallon jug (couldn't find a big watering can this time of year!) with some vinegar and skin-so-soft. The mixture penetrated and spread nicely, preventing the use of excessive amount of shampoo. I think the vinegar helped in it rinsing clean. Then I used the Groomax conditioner, also diluting it in a gallon of water, taking care to work it in. I think Mojo liked his "finger massage"! After it had been on for about 5 minutes, I began to rinse. I rinsed and rinsed and when I thought I was finished, I rinsed some more til the hot water was gone. I"m using the pin brush and he dried and brushed out beautifully. I'm hoping this all helps to prevent the matting. If he will cooperate, I will try to get some pictures after his brushing today! Thank you all for your suggestions. |
| I groom Barney and Maggie twice a week using a fine tooth comb. Takes longer than the hindes pin brush, but I think it does a more thorough job of removing any tangles. Is this overkill? Using this method I very seldom find a mat, and that's usually after they've been out in the rain a lot. |
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