Agressive OES
I'm new to this ~ chatting thing ~ that is ~ so please excuse me if I mess up & half of this goes in ~ Problem: I have a 9 month old male OES ~ He is "HUGE" & beautiful ~ & very lovable ~ but this is my problem ~ He is very agressive towards everyone in the house ~ That would be my husband ~ 12 yr. old daughter & myself ~ If he has something that belongs to my daughter ~ which that's when things usually happen because he wants everything that hers ~ and we try to take it away ~ Well ~ he starts growling up a storm ~ He even snaps at us ~ I don't know what to do ~ He is very pocessive of me and/or my daughter ~ When she is in her room & in bed & I try to go near her ~ He starts barking & growling at me ~ First & fuss at him the I stare him till he turns away & can't look me in the eyes then lays down & becomes submissive ~ He also has a fit if she comes to my bedroom & tries to come near me when I'm in bed ~ I sometimes think that he's trying to take the dominant role of us all even though I think he sees me the most as the alpha ~ Oh ~ I have to tell you ~ we also have 2 other dogs in the house ~ a 14 yr old ~ 5lb poodle who's blind & a 14 yr old ~ 10lb shihtzu ~ who is also blind ~ Oh! ~ and I might add ~ they "HATE" him ~ I feel so sorry for him cause he tries to play with them & they get so aggravated ~ The poodle lets him know that she's the boss of him & it works ~ so he really doesn't mess too much with her ~ but the Shihtzu is so laid back ~ he always aggravating her ~ So ~ Needless to say ~ there's a lot going on in the house ~ kinda like a zoo ~ HA! ~ He also likes to chew on us ~ a lot ~ So ~ Needless to say ~ I have huge problems ~ therefore ~ Need Help!!!!!~ Can anyone out there help me  |
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| Hello!
While I may not be the best person to offer help- I can tell what my experience has been. We adopted a 12 mth old 1 yr. ago from the local pound. He was sweet and full of puppy energy 
Long story short- 5-6 mths into it he was HUGE and full of attitude. I work from home so he saw me as more of an alpha figure than my husband & soon started growling at my husband when he didn't want to do what he was told. We talked to several people and read many posts on this forum. Our problem seemed to be a dominance issue. We started to impliment (sp?) the "work for everything" idea. To be petted, to eat, to get a toy or anything- he had to follow a command we gave him (ie. sit, lay down, etc.) We started feeding him by hand (not all the time, but 3-4 times a week). The idea is that he relizes he had to come us to get food- therefore we were the alpha. It's been a year now and just 2 weeks ago he growled and snapped at Brent b/c he didn't want to get out of the car whne it was time to- so he's still not perfect by any means. The episodes have become further and further apart. We've also been told to get him into a good obedience class as this will help build the bond b/w dog and alpha- we're still working on that. More excersize really help also- he doesn't have an attitude if he's sleeping  He's just such a sweetheart when he is "normal" that we just can't give up on hime yet...
Like I said- I'm certainly am not an expert- I'm learning more everyday. I also do not have a child nor do any children come to my house so there is not as much risk to us as their may be to you. If he growls now- he will bite later unless the dominance issue is taken care of and the earlier the better. While I certainly don't want to scare you away from the breed (we also adopted a 4 yr. old 2 yrs. ago and she's a complete sweetheart who would lick you to death before anything else  ) but your situation sounds pretty serious. From what I've learned- this age is a common one for dominance problems to start coming out (their at that "teenage" age where they are trying to push boundries)- I'm sure more experience folks will chime in and if you haven't already- check out some of the other posts on behavior problems.
Keep us posted! Cindy & the Monsters |
| That was a great response Gracie Girl!
Make him work for everything. And talk to your daughter about the dog sleeping in a crate or the bathroom or somewhere of his own for a while. Tell her that after he quits barking and growling, he might be able to sleep on her FLOOR. Wait until the dog is a lot older before you ever even think of letting him sleep with anybody. He needs to earn that privledge.( I personally, NEVER allow a dog to sleep with my girls or me). He may be trying to make a new pack of two (with him being alpha), your daughter and himself. This is not going to work out. Once you have him out of her room, give him his own toys. And everybody should play with him. Try having him drop your daughters stuff to go get his own toys. You can teach him fetch like this. At 6-11 months a dog matures sexually and tries to push all limits. It happens at least once more usually at about 18-24 months when they stop growing and beefing up. If you can make it through these stages and keep to being a good reliable pack leader, he will calm down and just amaze you. But right now you need to enforce a lot of limits. Gracie Girl outlined most of them. There are a lot of posts about this re-occurring problem under behavior and chit chat. Just do a search for Aggression, Barking, Growling or Biting. The search tab is up there at the header. Choose to search topic and posts. Choose to have just the subject displayed in the results, as I think you will have over 200 results. Just choose ones that sound like they are similar to your predictament. This is a whole family-type behavior modification situation. You are going to not only have to set limits for you dog, but for your daughter also. And you AND your husband will need to act as supreme alphas. I think you need to establish rapport with the dog first. Does it know any commands, like SIT,PAW, STAY, anything? You need to teach him something, so you can always ask him to do that and reward him. There has to be something POSITIVE going on between you before you get TOO NEGATIVE. The dog needs to have some way of knowing what it is you want of him and some motivation for doing what you want. So establish this by teaching him the SIT command, PAW, STAY, LAY, or even SPEAK will also work and be quite useful. Search for training advice also. I am sure others will cover this even better than I have. We all have had problems with our dogs. If you don't believe it just go to any of our names and look at our posts. Owning a dog is like raising a child. It is a never ending job with all sorts of adjustments needed on a continuous basis. Don't worry about mistakes, just keep trying and believing. Perserverance and persistence will always win in the end. About the two other older dogs. As with your daughter, some of your problems are from rivalry and competitiion for attention. It's a balancing act. the sooner you get him working as a tem member the sooner you will be able to "show" him how to get along with everybody. You may have to crate or find places for the other two dogs to stay at night too. It would be great if they could just be put together, let them work it out. But the age difference may be a huge problem -- or not, especially with blindness. Blind dogs tend to snap at everything that surpeises them. If you correct the pup, he's going to get jealous and revegeful. Better to distract and re-direct your pup's energies esewhere. Play and learning tricks. Teaching him to walk on leash. Keep him busy for a while. And do the food thing mentioned by Gracie Girl. It may seem a lot of work, but worrying takes up a lot of time too. |
| we are going through the same problems with our 10 month old walter. we sent him through two obedience schools and neither really shook it out of him, its really up to you to show him that youre in charge.
here are my tips: -keep a choke chain and leash on him at all times (except when youre not around, if gets caught on something he could choke), when he starts getting aggressive or nips you when youre playing take the leash and snap it giving him a quick correction. you can also try flicking his nose (walter hates that) eventually the dog will learn that you have a way of controlling him and will most likely step down. walter stills growls every once in a while at us but when we pick up that leash he gets on his back and makes the "i didnt do anything" face. this is the best tip ive gotten, walters aggression has reduced probably by 50% in the past 3 weeks that weve been doing this and it allowed me to take control. -establish a routine of heels sits downs and stays, make him do this with you for about 15 minutes everyday. this will show the dog that he doesnt have the run of the house and he has to listen. -teach him "out" or "drop". take a toy or a treat and put it by his face and tell him either of those commands in a very stern voice. if he goes for it give him a correction with the leash. he will learn very quickly that 'out' or 'drop' means he better not go near that treat or toy. eventually when he steals something of yours or your daughters if you use the command he will drop it and become submissive. the best tip ive learned from this website is that youre not alone. i was so stressed out when walter first started biting/growling but ive gotten many tips and words of encouragement from other sheepie owners which gave me a lot of hope for walter someday becoming a good little pup. |
| Hi,
I too am adding my support and all the previous posters gave excellent advice. It does get better - trust us on this and don't give up on him. Many dogs in families see the children as equal to them and the mom/ dad as the Alpha's - he seems to be competing with your daughter whom he sees somewhat as a sibling. The dominate (Alpha) always takes toys/food ect...from the more submissive ones. He is challenging your daughter - least that's the way I see it from your post. A dog shouldn't sleep on your bed or anyone else's as in the wild only the Alpha's get the choice spots - he needs this to be earned. I also have a very aged semi-blind 15 year old OES and a very active 60 pound pup in my home as well as 4 cats and a 13 year old Heeler/Lab. When my new pup attempts to rough house with the cats or the 15 year old I am very firm...Leave it!!!!!!!! and then distract with a toy or something else, just like Agingright recommended in her post. When they are distracted...lots of praise..good puppy! They eventually get it - but be consistent. Don't say their name when you are upset or angry. The majority of the time when I say "Leave it - he walks away. This was recommended to me by the trainer in my last obedience class. I highly recommend obedience classes...you will never regret this decision regardless of the time and energy initially spent. Remember that it will affect your life and your dogs for the next 8-10 years. A well trained good mannered dog is a pleasure to have. It is a lot of work but as everyone says these guys are so well worth it. I can sympathisize with you as my original OES's were both pound dogs (and the others dogs in my home were all shelter dogs too except my lastest pup) and came with a huge set of behavior problems. Each time I had to emerge as the Alpha and they challanged. Lots of work, nips, growls and challenging behavior - some took as long as a year to change and each one eventually became a well mannered dog in the household. The key is be consistent, firm and loving with lots of praise when they are distracted from the behavior you find troubling. Take an obedience class or some trainers will even come to your home to give one on one lessons - this is well worth it from someone that can observe your dog. Kinda like an investment - You pay for tuneups for your car to enjoy the pleasure of having run smoothly - same thing for a dog. Oh reread your post again and just wanted to comment on one thing. You said you stare your dog in the eyes. This is an Alpha trait that dogs(wolves) do in the wild and is called "giving the eye". In dog language it's telling a dog you want to fight him. It's not really recommended you do this - don't get me wrong you certainly can look at him but don't stare him in the eye. The result is they become afraid of you or in the future they will take you up on your challenge. I hope you don't get offended by my telling you that - again this was told to me the various trainers over the years. Good luck! |
| Thank you all for answering me & giving me such wonderful advice ~ I will try them all ~ I hope that it'll work ~ George does know sit/lay down & paw ~ so I guess I'll just have to continue working with him on that for treats ~ but I also wanted to let you know about a few more things that are going on with him ~
George sleeps ~ most of the time ~ underneath my vanity in our bathroom ~ I think that he has established this area as his own ~ "crate" ~ but ~ during the night he goes from one bedroom to the other ~ My husband manages a restrauant & doesn't come home till late every night ~ so we feel safe with him being able to walk around the house ~ Now ~ I have a dog bed next to my side of the bed with pillows ~ During the night ~ I sometimes find him in his bed with his head on one of the pillows ~ looking so sweet & innocent ~ just like a little baby ~ Yea Right! ~ However ~ he goes back & forth from my room to our daughters' room ~ Should I close my bathroom door at night ~ with him in it ~ so that he can't walk around ~ Most of the time ~ I do have George on his leash in the house ~ With that on ~ he seems to know to behave ~ Unfortunately ~ he was so terrible a few nights ago ~ "it was a full moon" ~ I had the leash on him & my daughter was sitting next to me on the sofa ~ Well ~ he wouldn't leave us alone ~ kept biting/nipping & pulling at us ~ I got so aggravated that I attached him to the bottom of the staricase railing ~ his leash is 8 ft long ~ he was in the same room as us & could see us ~ about 2-3 ft away ~ but he knew that he couldn't come near us ~ I then gave him a couple of his toys to play with & he just laid there playing ~ very quite ~ until ~ like a fool ~ I started feeling sorry for him & let him loose ~ Needless to say ~ he started biting/nipping at us again ~ so I put him back on the railing ~ this time not feeling sorry for him ~ & kept him there until we went to bed ~ He only barked a couple of times then fell asleep ~ Now ~ my husband & daughter say that when I'm not around ~ He's a sweetheart ~ all of the dogs are on the floor walking around ~ but as soon as I walk in the house ~ he starts up ~ and when I come home from work ~ the first one home ~ as soon as I open the door ~ first thing I see is the Shihtzu & George ~ together ~ getting along ~ waiting for me ~ They know exactly when I get home ~ Is it me??? ~ Also ~ he jumps on everyone who walks in the house ~ It seems like ~ as time goes by ~ I'm noticing more & more bad behavior ~ I had an obedience trainer ~ She came to the house ~ twice ~ to help with his training ~ he was 6 mos old then ~ I was told several things to do while working with him ~ First ~ "Bah" at him ~ which only worked for a week or so ~ if that didn't work ~ spray bottle ~ he loved that one ~ next ~ drop a chain that's hooked on a leash in front of him ~ I guess for the noise ~ well ~ that also only worked for a week or so ~ last resort ~ a can of coins ~ he just gets mad & frustrated at this one & continues doing what he was doing ~ However ~ I don't stop & he finally give up ~ So ~ Needless to say ~ I'm at a loss ~ He did do great with training at first ~ but I was the only one in the house working with him ~ and it seemed that whatever I'd do ~ my husband & daughter would undo ~ I kept/keep telling them that if I'm the only one willing to work to with him ~ that when he grows up ~ no one will want to go near him ~ including us ~ cause he'll be a holy terror ~I tried doing it on my own ~ kept waiting to see if it was just a phase he was going thru ~ even read books on the matter ~ but now I see that's it's not just a phase ~ I've decided to call his trainer & have her come back & help me ~ I refuse to give up on him ~ "I won't" ~ We all love him so much ~ the funny thing about it all is that I had an OES in the mid 70's thru early 80's ~ and she was an angel ~ that's why I wanted another one ~ Best dog I've ever had in my life ~ but ~ she was the only dog & it was just her ~ my mom & I living in the house ~ Oh ~ one more thing ~ I have a baby gate that I use to keep the little ones from going into another part of the house ~ and George is terrified of this gate ~ won't go near it ~ I guess it's because of the noise it makes when I move it ~ All I have to do is pick it up/move it ~ and he gets scared to death ~ Sad to say ~ I sometimes use the gate to keep him away from us ~ when he's biting us ~ All I have to do is look at it or go near it & that'll do the trick ~ Hope this lasts for a good while ~ George is really a great dog ~ he just needs to learn that we're not his toys .... Thanks again ................. Ruthie I'm still accepting any advice you may have out there ............ |
| It's me again ~ Ruthie ~ Maybe someone out there can help me with something ~ I am registered at this site ~ registered last night with my user name as Ruthie ~ so why do you think they keep sending my mail back to me stating that my user name is already being used ~ I have to send it with username blank ~ They accepted my username when I joined last night .................... Would anyone out there know what gives ....................... Thanks .............. Ruthie |
| Thank you so much for the advice about staring George down ~ I was definitely not offended by it ~ My Lord ~ I'm up to hearing any advice anyone out there has to give me ~ If I wouldn't be ~ I wouldn't have written in ~ The only reason I do that with George is because that seems to be the only thing that works with he & I ~ but I will STOP ~ I don't want him to be afraid of me & I definitely don't want to fight him ~ Thank you ~
George doesn't sleep in bed with us ~ the two little ones do ~ always have ~ Although I'm sure George would like to ~ but he's way to big for that ~ He has tried on several ocassions but we didn't let him & was very firm about it .......... Ruthie |
| walter is also afraid of the baby gate we use to keep him in his room at night, occassionally it wont be hooked ongood enough and will fall when were not around, but walter wouldnt dare cross it (although one of the first times we used it when he was just a small puppy he climbed over it, he mustve fell pretty hard haha)
i wouldnt feel bad about using things that george doesnt like as a punishment. if he is being naughty and biting or nipping and a tug on the leash doesnt work then i would put him in an isolated area with the baby gate up as a 'time out'. maybe leave him in there 15 minutes and then let him out (make him sit and stay first). as soon as he does it again he should go right back in the time out room again. tying him to the railing is a good idea too (tried it with walter but he just chewed the crap out of the stairs), dont feel bad for him... that was my biggest mistake. everytime i punished walter hed give me the sweetest look in the world or whine if i put him away. i was a total sucker for his fluffy face and he got to walking all over me. you have to be tough! ive also heard that getting a dog to lay down and stay is a really good thing to practice in order to develop dominance. while youre eating dinner, checking your emails, or watching tv tell george down and stay. when he gets up tell him no and walk him back to the spot he was in. tell him stay again, when he gets up again be more stern, tell him NO and drag him back to the spot. he will get up again, this time pull up on the leash and drag him back. he will only go half the distance the next time (unless hes being really bratty, which walter has been known to do) because he doesnt want to be dragged again. eventually he will stay down. at first let him get up after 10-15 minutes but as he tests you less make him stay for longer. ive been doing this with walter for almost a month and he still gets up 2-3 times but he knows what stay means and knows im serious so we can now get him to stay for about 30 minutes with only a few whines. george sounds like a sweetheart with a mischievious streak, i think some private obediance school could go a long way. or if you have the time just work him until hes too tired to be bad! |
Ruthie wrote: It's me again ~ Ruthie ~ Maybe someone out there can help me with something ~ I am registered at this site ~ registered last night with my user name as Ruthie ~ so why do you think they keep sending my mail back to me stating that my user name is already being used ~ I have to send it with username blank ~ They accepted my username when I joined last night .................... Would anyone out there know what gives ....................... Thanks .............. Ruthie
You have to LOG IN down at the bottom of the home page with your username "ruthie" and your password. Be sure to also click on the "Log me on automatically each visit " box before you click on "Login". That way you won't have to log in again. The reason your posts aren't going through is that the forum thinks you're trying to post as a guest with a guest name of Ruthie, so it's protecting your own registered "ruthie" name! 
Good luck! |
| Hi Ruthie,
You have gotten great advice as far as George the dominant dog! He will just have to learn the "Nothing in life is free" rule. Once he catches on that in order for him to eat, play or whatever, he has to do what you say, he will become a different dog. Don't even play with him when he wants-make him do something for you first. For example, when Merlin wants to play he come up to me and paws at me. I make him lay down for a few minutes and then after he has done this I get up and tell him "lets play" and he thinks it was MY idea not his LOL! You just have to be strong with these OES, they are strong willed and if you give them an inch they will take a mile!  Hugs, |
| Hi George,
I can't really offer anything new, but want to share some thoughts. Sounds like your pup needs to learn whose house he lives in! I have used some of the "tools" already mentioned -- spray bottle: did you put lemon juice in there? I used it for Winston when he was a pup and "talked back" to me. It gets in their eyes and burns. Won't hurt them -- but a quick shot should take them back a minute. Also, the shaker can worked wonders for the same talking back and also for digging. Your pup is a little big, but when they are littler a good shake at the scruff of the neck like their moms do gets a message across. Has he been aggressive for awhile? When my new pup, Bentley, was new in our house I gave him a bone to chew on. I decided I wanted to see what he would do if I tried to take it away from him and he growled at me when I did. So I grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and gave him a good scolding and shake and took the bone away. A few minutes later I gave it back and tested him and he just looked at me when I took it away again. He has not growled at me since. With my older boys, I have been making them sit and stay before I give them the OK command to eat their food. They sit and look at their dishes while I go fill their water bowl. I did this because I felt I wanted to reinforce my alpha role and it has really helped with their behavior. I must say it does frighten me to hear of his behavior. I would worry about your daughter if he is possessive about wanting her things. Don't give up -- consistentcy is one of the main behavior shapers. What about throwing something -- shaker can, keys -- at him from behind when he displays aggressive behavior. Maybe he will associate the behavior with the noise or startle. I may be suggesting things that are not strong enough for what is going on at your home. Keep working at it and remember who is the boss (the hand that feeds him) and best of luck with your training. Sandy, Winston, Oliver and Bentley |
| Ruthie,
What kind of food are you feeding your sheepie? Maybe the protein content is too high. When my Merlin was showing signs of aggressiveness I was advised by someone very knowledgeable about the breed to change Merlin's food to a lower protein content of around 18%. Since then he has been fine. He no longer growls and lunges at the neighbor dogs. Please don't think that you can control your pups aggressiveness by spraying his face or scaring him. I am afraid this will only make him afraid of you-not what you want-a fearful dog, because a fearful dog will eventually bite again. You have gotten great advice as far as the "nothing in life is free plan" make your pup work for his food. It doesn't take them long to realize who is in charge. Good luck! |
| Hi Ruth,
I don't usually post - but all of the recent discussions I've seen about aggressive OES puppies is alarming to me. Aggressive behavior like you described can easily escalate into a serious problem. I am NOT an expert but I would recommend a few things... POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING - I don't think that training which involves startling or scaring the dog to stop (or start) a behavior is wise - particularly with a dog that is already showing territorial aggression at such a young age. Maybe you could look for a group obedience class in your area - where George could not only learn some training - but he could also get some socialization. Be sure to look for a POSITIVE TRAINING CLASS. I highly recommend a book, The Dog's Mind, by Dr. Bruce Fogle. It is very interesting and informational - particularly with aggressive behaviors. It will provide you with some guidance as to what to do and what not do to (the staring in the face issue). If I'm not mistaken, you made a post on the OES List regarding adding another OES to the family. I would not recommend doing that until you have addressed these aggression concerns with George. They may get worse with the addition of another puppy. You were attempting to get in touch with NEOESR. You should discuss this behavior with Grannie Annie - if you haven't already. NEOESR has seen very young OES have to be euthanized due to aggression - which got out of control (and made worse with the wrong training!) Nip this in the bud (no pun intended!). Good Luck! Kristen |
| The book that Kristen mentioned is available through Amazon.com via this link:
The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior |
| Check out the cool web site I posted it is a behavior web site It has a lot of info and people who want to help you make your dog a better friend. All positive reinforcement.These are behaviorist and know how to help you.Alot of the advice on this site is helpful but it's always good to talk to someone who works with behavior problems in dogs on a daily basis.Also Nicolas dodmen has some great books check your local library.I can't remember the name but on the cover of one is an Irish wolfhound puppie.If anyone out there knows the name please post them. Thanks. |
| Is this the one? (Through Amazon.com)
The Dog Who Loved Too Much : Tales, Treatments and the Psychology of Dogs |
| I posted a version of this elsewhere on the Forum, but you might want to take your boy to the vet and have his thyroid checked, along with his overall health. There is a body of research linking thyroid levels with aggression.
My vet is resistant to the thyroid/aggression hypothesis. After I brought him some of the web articles, he agreed to work with Dr. Dodds at Hemopet in reviewing the thyroid test results. Dr. Dodds has a somewhat different approach than other vets in interpreting the test results. She will talk to you on the phone and is quite wonderful. So, in case your vet is like mine, here are some of the articles on aggression and thyroid: http://www.doglinks.co.nz/health/aggr_theroid.htm http://www.beaconforhealth.org/Thyroid-Aggression.htm http://www.volhard.com/holistic/vteam/bloodwork.htm These are the instructions for submitting a blood test to Dr. Dodds and I would bring the forms and instructions to the vet: http://www.volhard.com/holistic/vteam/H ... stForm.pdf http://www.hemopet.com/ I do some OES rescue work and fostering and have had the pleasure of meeting with Dr. Nicholas Dodman in cases where dogs had serious behavioral problems. He has several good books out that should be available in your local library and you are already following some of his usual suggestions. He usually explores: -diet (protein level of food for an aggressive dog should be below 18%); -exercize (a tired dog is a good dog); -obedience training (work for all rewards) -use of a "Gentle Leader" head collar/halter device both in the house and outside, the notion is if you control the head, you control the dog and there are good instruction materials with the device -use of medication, most notably Prozac Dr. Dodman's books include "Dogs Behaving Badly" and "The Dog Who Loved too Much". He has practical suggestions for serious behavioral problems. There is also quite a lot of his written material on the web. You might want to discuss some of these issues with your vet also. Again best wishes to you and your misbehaving boy. _________________ Fritzi and the Cheeze Doodles Storrs, CT. "To the world you're just a person; to a rescued dog, you are the world" -- anon |
| Wow!!! ~ I am so pleased about the responses from so many of you regarding my February post ~ George ~ Aggression Behavior ~ Thank you all so very much ~
Update #1: Since I last wrote ~ lots of things have been going on here ~ some good ~ some not so good ~ but ~ I am happy to report that George is back in training & I have to tell you ~ he is doing wonderfully ~ He did a complete 360 turn-a-round ~ He stopped with the growling & snapping at us & he also stopped mouthing ~ I can't believe it ~ but ~ I am working with him ~ a lot ~ Update #2: Everything was going great up until Feb. 28th ~ out of the blue ~ our little 14 yr old Shih tzu/Phoebe died ~ a week ago Satruday ~ What a Shock! ~ It seems as though our world has been turned upside down ~ Sadness throughout the house ~ Our Poodle/Zabelle grieves so much that she cries all the time and wants to be held ~ always ~ and by me ~ She's 14 yrs old and was with Phoebe since they were babies ~ George seems to be grieving in his own way ~ He didn't eat his food for almost a week ~ He only ate a few milk bones each day ~ He's okay now ~ eating again ~ getting back to normal ~ although I know that he misses Phoebe's presence ~ He was constantly herding her ~ a constant pain in the rear to her ~ Poor Phoebe! ~ You see ~ He can't do that to Zabelle ~ She's the boss! ~ I tell you ~ it's been awful ~ but it is getting better ~ Anyway ~ So I don't know if it's the atmosphere in the house or what ~ but ~ all of a sudden ~ George started growling again ~ 2 days ago ~ not half as bad as before ~ just a few times ~ but none the less ~ he's growling ~ Our trainer came today & she got to see him in rare form ~ I think she was shocked ~ She said that this kind of behavior is totally unacceptable ~ that when he does that to me ~ or any of us ~ it is showing complete disrespect to us ~ I told her that I was so glad that she got to see him in action ~ Even though this happened ~ I do want you to know that George has changed ~ a lot ~ he is a completely different dog now ~ We are nipping it in the bud & we are working very hard to stop his bad behavior ~ The growling is the only thing that he did ~ nothing else that I reported in my post ~ so ~ that's a good thing ~ We are certainly not going to give up on him ~ I want you to know that we had been thinking about getting George a playmate ~ another OES ~ but when I read the post today saying "I shouldn't get another one till George's problems are solved" ~ Well ~ I tell you ~ I have to agree with you ~ We're going to wait! ~ but we will get one ~ One day!!! Once again ~ a big "Thank You" for all of your help ................. Blessings .......................... Ruth |
| You might like to check out this book by an English breeder/ trainer The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell. She found inspiration in Monty Roberts (The horse whisperer) and devised a humane training system that seems to be both fast and effective if you follow the simple rules. Her books are easy reading and very interesting. Her system revolves around relieving a dog of alpha responsibilties thereby allowing it to be a happy and subordinate pack/ family member. Best of luck for the future. Simon, Lisa, Phoebe & girls. |
| Hi Ruthie!
Just wondering what's going on! Ready for that new sheepie yet? |
| Seven years ago, when we adopted Tyler he too had the Alpha Male thing going and my husband not ever owning a dog, didn't know what to do about it. While I had Tyler’s respect it was different for Lee. In reading about dog behavior I learned that the alpha dog eats first and then lets the other dogs eat. So I made sure that Lee was the person who did the feeding. Soon Tyler learned that the food came from him, he must be important / Alpha. It is many years later but Tyler still rolls onto his back whenever Lee comes into the room. We all know that is the passive behavior to the Alpha dog in the pack.
Your best bet is reading a book on dog behavior and then using it to understand and train him and yourselves in how to better relate. It isn't a matter of dominance, it is a matter of understanding how he sees things, how his mind works. When you better understand that you will see true family member. We adopted Kiera about 15 months ago. In the beginning she thought that she was the alpha female, she wouldn't greet me when I came home, would not kiss me or anything. In this time I have not had to yell or hit or spank, but in the true method of an alpha dog who disciplines an up and coming female, I would put her head down and hold it if she did something I didn't like, I would even growl at her, and a few times I took her muzzle into my teeth and growled. About 6 months or more ago, she started greeting me at the door and kissing on the underside of my chin, the sign of a lesser female to the alpha female. I didn't have too do anything too extreme, but being consistent has made her a better family member. No matter who is in the room, both dogs make there nest at my feet, they love me and I love them, it is mutual respect. The book that I highly recommend is “The Hidden Life of Dogs” by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. This book came out sometime in the mid eighties and in my opinion is one of the best studies on how dogs relate. I took much of what she talked about in that book and applied it to my rescue dogs and it has worked for me. I wish you all good luck with your rescues. They are the best and will love you for rescuing them |
 The Hidden Life of Dogs at Amazon.com |
| Wow. I've been reading all the conversation about agressive behavior, because so much of it touches on Barney's antics. At 3 months, his biggest problems are mouthing. My hands indicate he is very much attached to me! But so far all the comments are telling me that now is the time to establish firmness and let him know who's boss. Thanks for all the great advice and comments. A wonderful forum.
George |
| Be sure not to associate normal puppy "mouthing" with aggression. A healthy OES puppy shouldn't be showing any signs of aggression.
OES pups need firm training and guidance - but positive reinforcement only. I recommend a book, The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell!!!! JMHO. Kristen |
| Hi!
I've been hanging around for a while....this is a great place for sheepies....Currently I have 2 a 10 month old "Rufus" and a 10 week old who has yet to be named....(Formally she is Cagney Dutchess of Cornwall named after my first sheepie the darling miss Cagney who is now gone). OH and it wouldn't be fair not to mention my dearest Lacey and St. mix and queen of the pack. Anyway I babble....Rufus is a very big boy, 70lbs already and feet the size of my head and he is a kleptomaniac too....one day he thought it would be a good idea to be the boss, he was pushing everyone around, except Lacey...he tried but got nowhere. I lost my senses and didn't know what to do with him.....stubborn as a sheepdog he could careless what I did or said. So I collected myself and remembered my book....(Dog Talk....WONDERFUL BOOK!) I got on the floor and got behind him and knocked him down, flipped him over and bit his neck (just like Lacey does when he bothers her!)....he got so confussed he ran away to the other room. I did this to him a few more times when he got snotty and now he has given up....Now with the new puppy he has been reborn....he loves to play with her but kickes her but at least once a day once he bit her ear and made her bleed.....now I'm stupped again....any ideas? |
| Patience and consistency are the key. Sofa and Lennon are always fighting to see who's alpha and we still have a lot of work to let Sofa understant what's acceptable and what's not.
Let your dog know that biting is never acceptable by using the NO!!! word and maybe sending him to a corner when he misbehaves. It works great with Lennon and Sofa... Altough Sofa sits in the corner for like a 1/100 of a second and tries to run back to the action... we're working on that. Since both of them are still fighting for the second in command at home, I still have to break fights from time to time, but they are less frequent every time. We started with the "Nothing is free" program for both to reinforce that uprights are alphas, no more sleeping on the bed or getting on furniture, since they were beginning to get out of control. The things you've been doing to Rufus sound OK to me, because you are letting him know it's not acceptable in Dog talk. Here's what's worked for me when they really start misbehaving: I jump on them from behind and with a quick move push them to floor and turn them so their backs are on the floor. Grab his mouth and tell him NO!! and mantain eye contact until your dog looks somewhere else, the release the dog and don't pay attention for a few minutes, be gentle but firm. I remember reading that's how wolves keep the others in hand when they are trying to challenge the alpha. Hope that advise works, I know these guys are big and string and can be quite a handful when left unchecked! Good Luck!!! |
| cannot offer suggestion because each case is different, can only relate personal experience, I am on my 4th OES, the 1st was 9 years old when he came to me. He was abused by children and at the same time, very protective, he had to be isolated from kids, and on one occasion bit my nephew, at 11, he bit me in the face. passed on of old age at 13, #2 was great, but had kidney failure at 5, #3 is the closest in relation to this problem, I came to learn that at 5, he was biting friends, they didn't tell me initially because they didn't want to upset me, it wasn't until a friend was playing with him and he ended up biting off his ear!, Afterwords, I learned he had bitten at least 3 other people, right or wrong, after a lengthy discussion with my vet and other pet owners, and the circumstances of living arrangment, he was put to sleep. Now #4 is 12 years old, he is still very much a baby, he used to be veryI food protective, and has on occasion, tried to bite the hand that feeds him, although not in the past few years. |
| I have been told by the top breeders that a good bread oes will not have agression of any sorts....also you can tell this by their body weight...should be around 60lbs fully matured....does anyone have comments as to this? |
| HollyS said: Quote: I have been told by the top breeders that a good bread oes will not have agression of any sorts....also you can tell this by their body weight...should be around 60lbs fully matured....does anyone have comments as to this?
I would agree that a good breeder would not breed a dog that shows any sign of aggression. Although, I don't understand about the body weight. The body weight and height would all depend on what line the dog comes from and really the individual dog as well. OES really seem to come in all shapes and sizes. Annabelle is 67lbs and Jack is 83lbs. I would say 60lbs might would be about average weight for an OES, with some being smaller and some being much larger. I didn't know if you had posted here before, but if not WELCOME TO THE FORUM! If you have, welcome again.
Stormi and co. |
| On the subject of weight, the OES standard does not mention weight, only height, proportion and substance. However in Joan Walker's "Old English Sheepdogs" she indicates the OES weight can be "70-100 lbs or more." |
| I would say that's about right for a male!
Kristen |
| I love this thread. I think I can learn so much from your situation Ruthie. I have a 6lbs dog and 11lb cat who will be introduced to a puppy already bigger than them. UNFORTUNATELY, it's also the week I must watch my mother-in-law's dog while they're in Hawaii. Forgot all about it. I am now starting to worry about ....MY CAT!!! Introducing her to the puppy will be a little easy. She will just hate him for the first 2 wks, then she always adapts and then kicks the dog's bootie (playing of course). However, ugh... my mother-in-laws dog is fully grown and ALSO a herding dog who likes to chase animals. Poor kitty will be so miserable. She tends to take it out on us (slapping and nipping both present dog and myself).
I am very sorry to hear about your shih tzu. truly saddens me. i really don't want to imagine having to lose my currently family members. I will take these tips in the thread and see where it leads me. Keep up with the persistence! |
| Hi!
Have you seen Dr. Stanley Coren's show. Good Dog? He taught a family to help their dog decipher between his toys and their things by giving them different smells and rewarding the dog for approaching his things. I have an OES living with me temporarily. He was crated for a long-weekend with his previous owner and has major separation anxiety. The men in his life before he met my husband have been mean to him. He is afraid of men and strangers. Any thoughts? |
| Sabrina,
Time and patience is your best bet! Have your husband be involved in feeding the dog and offering treats, etc. Try and avoid raising voices - and speak very softly. I watched an episode of the new Animal Planet (I'll try and get the name) where a man was dating this woman and her dog hated him - would growl and snap - they had the woman stay out of caring for the dog and had the man do it all (feed him, walk him, etc.) - the outcome was the dog absolutely LOVES the man now! Good Luck! Kristen |
| I love that show Good Dog, he is so inventive, really individualized solutions for individual dogs, but all following the same common sense train of thought, and most importantly he makes sure people understand the dogs' train of thought. |
 Hi there, i have read just about everything that has been written on here concerning aggressive behaviour. I have an oes who has been a nightmare from day one, at eight weeks ole he was ery ill and nearly died, he recovered and came home to be pampered and there the trouble started. He became more and more dominant and grew into a nippy nasty boy who scared me. he stopped me from going into the kitchen which he saw as his domaine, he bit so hard he drew blood with his needle teeth. we took him to classes where he excelled but he was and still is a little s**t at home. We have tried everything even taking him back to the vet and she was useless... we have unfortunately been using an electric collar as a last result and it was not taken lightly, it really was a last result method, but i will say that it has to some degree made a huge difference, he knows when he has it on and its working so the barking stops, the biting stops, and most times i only have to use the warning noise and he listens. He now sits on the couch at night and is quite good company, but if he knows the battery has run out as it did today, gosh the behaviour change is dramatically worse. I would never be able to trust him and if we had small children he would have had to be re homed long go, one day im hoping we get through to him and never have to use the collar again but we will have to see. |
| I HIGHLY suggest finding a trainer that specializes in aggressive dogs. Ours was a life-saver. She taught us a very specific way to use our e-collars, as mis-use can actually make your problems worse rather than better. PM me if you'd like more information. |
| How old is he now? Training has to be continual to be effective.. I am not sure what the vet could do for you other than point you towards a good trainer/behaviorist! Hoping your vet gave you a good direction to go with training! Agree with Allison that collars can benefit but, be negative if not used properly! Please let us know more specifics so we can help!!!!!!!! |
| I m kind of in the same situation, bloo is 7 months unneutered and dominent. When we are at the park he will grab dogs and pin them to the floor, hes a right old bully. He does it mostly to females. (I think its becasue hes not neutered) telling them hes the male so i do as i like. Also i can plaay ball with him, fetch. He will bring the ball back drop it jump up me and bite growl at me. I push him back as hard as i can and scream NOOOOO! then he whines We go training too, but just lately bloo doesnt do anything i say, its as if his brains dissapeared. I would get on to one training or something maybe. If he has a favourite person in the house he may be protecting him/her. I dont know much but id say hes laying down the rules in the house about who does what. Whatever he wants YOU ALWAYS DO THE OPPOSITE Good Luck let us know how its all going. |
| BlooBoo; I was taught that screaming at your dog is one of the least helpful ways to communicate with them. It doesn't always mean to them what it means to us. And they become desensitized to it far more quickly than you'd imagine. Also, I've never used the word "No" with my girls at any volume- we were taught that dogs don't understand a negative, or alack of command. You have to give them an alternative to the undesirable behavior. For example, when dog jumps up, you don't want to say "No!" you want to say "Off". Otherwise, when you catch them chewing a shoe and you say "No!" instead of "leave it!" that "no" can mean "stop jumping up on me", and your dog will be confused, because they weren't jumping up on you, they were eating a shoe. Again, I'd suggest seeking out an aggression specific trainer, and considering neutering. I know our park has a sign saying un-neutered dogs aren't allowed, simply because of the way they act in group settings. I know reading books has gone quite out of fashion, but there are some great ones on the subject of aggressive dogs that I found helpful on my journey to get my girls to be better dogs. I noticed in looking up the titles that many are now available for e-readers too! FIGHT! - A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO THE TREATMENT OF DOG-DOG AGGRESSION by Jean Donaldson MINE! - A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS by Jean Donaldson YOUR OUTTA CONTROL PUPPY by Teoti Anderson (I really loved this one- it was very good in explaining what I was doing wrong!) I bought most of my books over at Dogwise.com, in case you cannot find them other places. And I think some were even on sale! ~Allison |
| i understand, i use no when he bites etc... i use leave it when he eats poo runs off with shoes etc... The breeder said shout No in a deep loud voice, as they think its there mohouting at them. I meant that when i said screamed  Sorry i didnt myself clear that was my fault.  |
| Here is my pennyworth, for what its worth: Be patient When telling them no - speak in a drone voice but with command Try a empy bottle with stones in it and shake it in the air or bash it again the wall. This is to get their attention and stop them from doing whatever it is they are doing If they are bitting is it due to them being hungry as well as teething or boredom? - Increase their food slowly and try obience or even agility with them. Dont ever ever stare at an OES as this is threaten emotion and is telling them - you want to have a fight with them Is your male dog attuned to your cycles - due to the smells Make your dog work for his food I was always taught many moons ago to get your dog out of control with a command to then place them back into control. A way to do this is to when they are out of control - pull them up from the choppers and pull them almost off the floor at time same time as saying no - then swing them left to right stating no again and then drop them to the floor. I know this sounds awful, but with an OES you have to show them who is top dog and who WILL always be top dog. I would advise you not to get another puppy while your dog is having problems Is your daughter playing on the floor where George is used to having his toys on the floor. I would sit on the floor with George and your daughter and play with his toys - if he gets out of control - keep the bottle with you and shake it in the air If you can ignore him and tell him - I am ignoring you - thats something and OES hates Remember Rome wasnt built in a day and your completed an awful lot of steps with him again patience is a huge key.Let us know how he gets on and I hope my thoughts are useful. |
| I am so happy yet so sad to read this post. Grew up with the most wonderful OES. Never, ever had any issues. Adopted a 10 year old one from the shelter 6 weeks ago, who has been adorable up to yesterday. Bit me in the face, I had to go to the emergency and get stitched. I think the 1hr session at the groomer was just too much for him. He had been showing tremendous patience. I think once at home he just wanted to be left alone. Instead I started cuddling him, kissing him on the face. He looked so adorably fluffy after the grooming session and the One snap as to say leave me alone now. I feel like an idiot for getting so close to him yet having that bond is what has made me so happy for the past 6 weeks. i am devastated as I feel I will never be able to trust him again. I refuse to bring him back. in general he is sooooo submissive, especially compared to our Beagle. I didn't see this one coming! . On one hand I take all the responsibility. I should have left him alone after having been such a patient dog at the groomer yet this unexpected behavior worries me. Any suggestions for a 10 year old who spent 3 months in a shelter are welcome. |
| I'm so sorry... most of us are guilty of getting in our dog's faces. He may have had enough for the day as you said. You mention that he's 10... has he had a full physical to rule out arthritis, hip dysplasia, etc.? Maybe blood work since he's an older senior to make sure he's healthy, that his thyroid T4 is in the normal range. If there's any pain or reason for him not to feel well, it could be the reason for his unfortunate response. 3 months is a very long time for a dog to spend at a shelter. It does take it's toll and he may just naturally have a lower bite threshold. Did you get any history on him before he arrived at the shelter? Just wondering if it would help you to understand him better. If all checked out good at the vet, maybe talk with a behaviorist in your area to help you both get past this. It's going to take some time for you to build the trust and understand his limits. I hope your injury heals quickly and I wish you both the best. |
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