http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10338070/ Quote: CHICAGO - Dan McCauley had seen one too many kids at his cafe lying on the floor in front of the counter, careening off the glass pastry case, coming perilously close to getting their fingers pinched in the front door. So he posted a sign: “Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices.” To him, it was a simple reminder to parents to keep an eye on their children and set some limits. But to some parents in his North Side Chicago neighborhood, the sign may as well have read, “If you have kids, you’re not welcome.” That one little notice, adorned with pastel hand prints, has become a lightning rod in a larger debate over parenting and misbehaving children. “It’s not about the kids,” said McCauley, the 44-year-old owner of A Taste of Heaven cafe, who has no children but claims to like them a lot. “It’s about the parents who are with them. Are they supervising and guiding them? “I’m just asking that they are considerate to people around them.” Hundreds of supportive letters While he has created some enemies in his neighborhood, McCauley has received hundreds of calls and more than 600 letters, the overwhelming majority of them supportive. One letter-writer from Alabama typed out in bold letters: “In my opinion, you’re a hero! Keep it up.” It is a sentiment that people feel increasingly comfortable expressing. Online bloggers regularly make impassioned pleas for child-free zones in public, while e-mailers have been forwarding a photograph of a sign in an unidentified business that reads, “Unattended Children Will Be Given an Espresso and a Puppy.” While it is common policy for upscale restaurants to bar children, owners of other types of businesses also are setting limits on kids. The Wynn Hotel in Las Vegas, for instance, does not allow visitors who aren’t guests to have strollers; hotel officials say it is to prevent crashes with other pedestrians. The Bellagio Hotel does not take guests younger than 18 without special permission. Some parents are fine with the limit-setting and complain that too many of their peers take their kids to places traditionally meant for adults, such as late-night movies and rock concerts. ‘How fair is that?’ Robin Piccini, a 42-year-old mom in Bridgewater, Mass., gets annoyed when she has hired a baby sitter for her daughter, only to end up seated at a restaurant next to unruly kids. “I am paying the same price so that I can have a relaxing dinner, but because there are lazy parents out there, my dinner has to be stressful and tense,” she said. “How fair is that?” Still, while they agree that some parents push the boundaries too far, other weary parents feel under siege — and misunderstood. “Don’t get me wrong. As a parent, I have an arsenal that includes the deadly stare, loss of privileges and ‘We’re going back to the car, RIGHT NOW!”’ said Angela Toda, a 38-year-old mother of two small children in College Park, Md. “But the bottom line is, there are certain moments that all kids and parents have — and sometimes your kid is going to lose it in a public place.” She says she does not usually respond well to other people’s interference, “unless it is a sympathetic look.” Parents in Port Melbourne, Australia, also were upset last year when a sign appeared on the restaurant door at the Clare Castle Hotel stating that children were welcome only if they stayed in their seats. The establishment has since changed hands and dropped the policy, which new owner Michael Farrant says makes no sense in a neighborhood filled with young families. “I like the kids running about,” said Farrant, a father of three, including a 2-year-old. “I know what it’s like with a little one. Sometimes, there’s no controlling them.” Separate spaces Still other business owners are creating separate spaces for kids and families, in an attempt to accommodate as many generations as possible. All Booked Up in Suffolk, Va., is among bookstores that have separate sections where kids can play and rest. Many ballparks have alcohol-free “family sections.” And a few restaurants have added separate dining areas for parents with children. Zulema Suarez, a professor who studies parenting, applauds attempts to strike a balance. “There needs to be a give and take,” said Suarez, an associate professor of social work at Adelphi University in Garden City, N.Y. “Children don’t need to be allowed to run wild and free, but they do need to be allowed to express themselves.” Too often, though, our cultural emphasis on freedom and individual rights gets taken to the extreme, becoming “a kind of selfish entitlement that undermines our ability to function as a civil community,” said George Scarlett, a professor of child development at Tufts University in Boston. “The rights of any one individual — whether he or she be a parent, child or stranger — do not negate the rights of others.” |
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This IS an interesting article, and just perfect for this Food for Thought section. This could also be one of those powder-keg threads, so let's all be careful in our responses.
IMHO, I agree with the restaurant owner. We took our kids to restaurants from the time they were babies and taught them what behavior was acceptable. As parents and adults, we need to set limits and teach correct behavior, and that is all this restaurant owner is trying to do. He is not trying to discipline other people's children, as some in the video claim - he is asking the parents to do it themselves. A novel idea! Actually being in command! I have been to too many restaurants where the kids won't eat, sit and scream, then want to get down and run around - and the parents let them. It's not only an annoyance, it's dangerous. Kudos to The Taste of Heaven! JMHO, Chris |
"Children don't have to run wild and free, but they need to express themselves" says a professor of sociology (or something). Yes, but they can express themselves at home or on the playground. Not in public where it disturbs other people. I'm all for child-free places. Heck, smoking is banned because some people don't like it. |
I was in Bermuda for a party over Y2K, and my evening was RUINED because we were seated next to a table with MANY LOUD children, running around and carrying on, etc. It was a large family, all seated together. This was a black-tie affair, too. We wanted to have a fancy occasion for Y2K, being as we won't ever see a turn-of-the-millennium in our lifetimes again. The last thing I wanted was young children running around my table, shooting pretend guns at each other. The parents did nothing to keep their kids in line - it was just terrible. I like kids - don't get me wrong, but it was the wrong venue for them. Not sure if this is related, but there is a social organisation for people that don't have kids and don't want kids: http://www.nokidding.net/ ~Katie. |
Not too many business people are willing to go out on a limb like that and possibly lose business. I can't blame him. If a child had gotten hurt the parents who were not watching their child would probably sue, saying it was the eatery's fault.
When the boys were babies, I took them out if they cried, when they were older if they were rude or disruptive they were corrected and were to apologize. I wish more parents would take responsibilty for their children and expect civil behavior. |
This cafe owner shouldn't have had to put this sign up. Unfortunately people don't take responsibility for their children's behavior. Even if he didn't post a sign, he should be completely within his rights to ask disruptive patrons to leave his cafe. If I came in and started playing a trumpet at the same volume as kids were screaming I am sure the parents of the screaming kids would complain about my noise.
My parents used to take my sister and I out all the time when we were little. They made sure we behaved, but believed that the best way to learn proper manners outside the home was to practice them outside the home. If we were disrupting other patrons we left. I don't believe that there should be "childless" areas, but seeing the way basic manners are deteriorating with each generation it may be the only way. People don't even seem to use common sense when choosing where to take their behaving children...I see them at R-rated movies all the time. It is unfortunate that this has even become an issue. Amanda |
I completely agree with the owner. I don't have any kids but I have neices and nephews and so help them if they act up in public. I just pack them up and leave. Thats one reason as to why I will not take my Bros kids in public. No manners and according tot them "Auntie Mean". AUntie's mean cuz she has rules and demand respect. When I am out on a date or out for an expensive dinner I DO NOT want to listen to little brats screaming "I want it" or running around the resturant.
THe line about unattended children will be given an espresso and a puppy. I'm all for it. You're not going to watch your kids, they will be pumped full of sugar and caffine and handed back to you. I have no patience for parents like this and I will make rude comments loud enough for them to hear. |
It's a shame that parents don't take responsibility for their children. When I went to the mall today, the ladies who worked the register where I paid were commenting on the children in the store. Just while I was standing there, a child was picking up shoes and tossing them around and the mother did nothing. Didn't pick up after the child or correct her. Another walked by and pulled sweaters off a table. Again - no correction or picking up after them. I was appalled! |
One of my former co-workers had kids I privately referred to as "the spawns of hell" because of their horrible behavior. When a bunch of us were at a restaurant, the kids were running around the tables, hiding under the tables (where people were sitting!) and yelling at each other. They were so out of control they were sweating! Mom sat there visiting with the people at our table completely oblivious of what was going on. Another time, I made the mistake of going to the grocery store with her. One of the kids was busy poking holes in the baked goods while the other was stomping and pouting because I wouldn't let her ride in my basket which was full of groceries. All Mom did was say, "Oh, won't she let you ride?" She had absolutely no control over her kids and, worse, didn't seem to care how they acted! Geez! |
Women like that should not be allowed to have children. If you can't control them how are they going to be able to control them when they are 15 or 16? I'm not interested in supporting these kids behind bars. |
I often wonder if they will end up in the "cross bar university"!!! |
casearoo wrote: Women like that should not be allowed to have children. If you can't control them how are they going to be able to control them when they are 15 or 16? I'm not interested in supporting these kids behind bars.
Or the kids that they'll be having when they are 15 or 16. Even worse are kids like that on planes. The last time we flew out to Vegas, a non English speaking family let their 3 kids loose (all 5 or under) about 15 minutes after take off. The flight attendants tried to tell them to stop but they "didn't understand." When one attendant tried to lead one kid back, who was slamming the bathroom door open and closed over and over again, the father freaked out about the attendant touching the kid and grabbed him...only to let him go, no lie, 5 minutes later. The parents were no better, they took all of our overhead space even though they were across the aisle and kept getting up to get things. Our poor friend on the end seat got the guy's butt in his face more times than he cared for! Then, the icing on the cake, as soon as we touched down, when you're still supposed to be seated since you're still going really fast, the mother grabs the kids and runs for the front of the plane while the father starts tearing apart the overheads for his luggage. My friend and I finally said something (I know, imagine me keeping my mouth shut this whole time!) and the people around us applauded. For the first time, they looked embarrassed for their behavior. |
In my job, I've often had to call parents of children that have been 'naughty' to some extent. The parent's reaction is usually, "What now?" or "How much is this going to cost me?" I really want to tell these people that we'll just keep their kids and put them to work here or we'll beat them and send them back to you. At least then these kids would have the fear of God put into them.
I remember when I was little, there was absolutely no way that we would ever behave the way that kids today behave. If you were bad, the whole town knew it and your parents knew before you even got home. I babysat for 2 kids whose parents said they didn't have to do any work around the house. The kids would dirty 30 dishes a day and then the parents expected me to have the house clean when they got home. I don't freakin think so! Those kids did their own dishes or they didn't get done. The parents actually said to me that their kids didn't need to do dishes they should just play all day. I just said that if they didn't need to do dishes then I didn't need to babysit them. (Their mom was my godmother's sister so I couldn't be too obnoxious!) As far as karma goes, the brother of those two just had triplets! I wonder if his kids will be doing their own dishes when they get older. There was one kid who's mom I had to call. This kid must have had a death wish because his mom was a Marine! He had been really bad too! When the cops dropped him off at home they said they were intimidated by her. Turns out the kid got in trouble because of a girl he was seeing. Well, that girl's mom got an education when this lady Marine showed up at her house to drop off some of the daughter's clothing (which were found in the boy's bedroom!) Neither of those kids have been in trouble since! My other question is, how come some of the most wonderful people in the world have the worst kids? I just don't get how that happens. |
Oh and! I have a huge personal space issue so I think that if your kid hits me or throws stuff at me or their mashed potatoes end up in my lap or hair then I get to discipline them.
If they're in play, they're fair game!!!!!! |
Brandon is a terrible child, and I know he is. He's everyone's "nightmare" toddler. We can't take him ANYWHERE - not even a fun place like the movies, a zoo, McDonald's, or even Disney - without him throwing constant tantrums. He's been that way his entire life, and as much as I hate it, it's part of his personality. If anyone has ever read Dr. James Dobson's " The Strong-willed Child" book, that's my son to the tee. He even got kicked out of CHURCH (the nursery and the church) a few months ago. We haven't taken him back since, which is awful because we were really involved in church and it's something I want them to grow up knowing.
He has manners, uses them, but if something goes wrong (whether his food is touching each other, he doesn't like where he's sitting, it's too loud, it could be ANYTHING that sets him off), all hell breaks loose. He starts crying, screaming, and you can't control/hold him. He's VERY strong - my hubby is 6'3, 260 pounds - mostly muscle and he can't even hold Brandon during his fits of rage. Given all of this, we do not take him places. When we do (it's not really fair to our 4 year old who is an angel), it's always a kid friendly place like McDonald's, Chuck E. Cheese, etc... If he starts screaming, I take him out and sit outside with him. I can understand the reasoning behind the store owners. Heck, I don't even want to be around Brandon when he starts his fits, and he's my own child. That's why we try our hardest to keep him away from situations where people wouldn't understand. Heck, I missed my BIL's wedding - where my oldest son was the ring bearer and my hubby was best man - because Brandon was having one of his tantrums, he was only 14 months old and was that bad even then. I know exactly how miserable it is to be around, I live it daily! lol Now that I've said bad stuff about him - lol - he also has an awesome personality too. He keeps everyone laughing, goes from crying to the sweetest smiles and you can't help but to smile and be happy around him when he's in a good mood. He is polite, and just the most caring little boy you could ever meet when he's "normal". lol We're taking him to a behaviorist after the first of the year, so hopefully, he'll start acting like the "good" child all the time soon. |
Quote: I often wonder if they will end up in the "cross bar university"!!!
Thats exactly where they are going to end up. If Mom and Dad don't discipline now, they are going to run wild as teeneager. |
Gail, has Brandon's dr ever considered testing him for bipolar disorder? I don't know much about it so I don't know if it affects a child that young, but could it be a possibility?
Chris |
I'm not sure it's all completely discipline issues for some kids either though. I know Brandon gets disciplined and I'm very consistent with him. He's is just SO routined and scheduled (not my doing either because I'm not a schedule-type person - lol) that if one thing gets thrown out that's different, he can't handle it. Then the tantrums start.
He also tends to have them more when he's tired, and he has some allergies that trigger them. Our pedi has him on a diet, and we plan on doing allergy testing after he turns 3 (on the 20th). Our pedi doesn't like to do them that young, but he also knows what we're dealing with when it comes to Brandon. He's seen Brandon's tantrums and they're not pretty. He kicks, screams, bites, cries, throws things and he's only 2! It took five nurses and me to give him his shots last time. It's nearly impossible to hold him down when he gets upset. He's a kid that needs Nanny 911, but everyone says that even she would run away from Brandon. Like I said, my other child is a perfect angel. Jake NEVER even gets upset or gets into trouble. The two of them are total opposites. I have not done anything different with either of them. I'm just at a loss with Brandon, and he knows when he does something bad also, because he runs off and hides (usually under the bed). Brandon was a preemie, so I'm thinking there might be an underlying condition of some sort also. I just know he didn't get his temper from me or my husband. We're both SOOO laid-back and our families are too. He's a very smart, curious child. He knows his numbers, his ABCs, colors, can add and subtract smaller numbers, reconginzes words & starting to read smaller ones in books. He talks NON-stop and understands a lot, so I'm hoping that between the behaviorist, us still working with him, and we've talked about taking him to a therapist - that we can figure out why he gets these fits of rage. It honestly scares me to think of what might happen if he continues this as he gets older, but I DO know that my husband and I are doing everything we can right now to help him. It's just taking some time... |
Drezzie's Mom wrote: Gail, has Brandon's dr ever considered testing him for bipolar disorder? I don't know much about it so I don't know if it affects a child that young, but could it be a possibility?
Chris It hasn't been mentioned, so I'm not sure. Our pedi says he's never seen a child react like Brandon and then be so good as quick as he does. He recommended us seeing the child behaviorist, so we're going to go that route next month. I'm hoping she'll have some answers or at least some suggestions that work. I know I'm just exhausted...the only breaks I get are the 10-11 hours a day he sleeps. The rest of the time, I'm constantly having to keep him busy and going from one thing to the next. I feel like I walk on egg shells around him, because I never know what will set him off. |
Brandon sounds very much like my neice. She did all of the things you describe. They first said she was autistic...except that she was very verbal. Then they said it was just behavioral...the last diagnosis was that she has Aspergers Syndrome. If you feel in your heart there is something else beside behavioural problems making your son this way,then bug your doc to get you all the tests there are to help Brandon. |
You know Chris, that's exactly what I thought when I read Gail's first post and then again in her last post!
Gail, it really sounds like he's bipolar (bipolar being going from one extreme to the other personality wise). I didn't think it really occured in one so you either but maybe a little internet research on it. (If I can get the dust off of them, I'll look up some info from my psych text books, that minor ought to be good for something!) Another of the big keys to bipolar disorder is that it is so unpredictable and uncontrollable. For an extreme reference look at the incident that happened on the plane where the air marshal shot that passenger yesterday. That person's family is saying he was bipolar and off his meds. You never know, the behaviorist would also be able to tell you more once you start seeing them. Good Luck!!! We're all behind you! |
Gail, is he on any type of medication, for anxiety or anything else? If so, you may want to seriously check into the side effects. If not, when you go to the doctor PLEASE research side effects prior to putting him on any drugs, especially those for anxiety type issues. The long term side effects can cause more problems than the initial problem, enough to sometimes make it impossible to stop using the drugs.
I hear what you're saying and understand. Please don't take offense to this comment, I only mean it in the most caring way. But, if they find no medical condition (I pray they don't), PLEASE make sure it is not a lack of proper discipline before you allow them to treat him with medication to settle him down. They are so eager to put these kids on meds that all you have to do sometimes is walk in the door and right back out with a script for something. Sure, it'll help for awhile, but ask them to explain ALL the ill effects of these drugs. (Don't mean to imply anything about your discipline - just concerned for your childs wellbeing.) |
As a supermarket cashier I should probably keep my thoughts to myself on this one, but...
Nothing worse than the gal with 3+ kids that comes to the self check area during rush hour and makes a game of letting her kids scan 30+ items (posted limit is 20) while a half dozen people are waiting in line. |
mouthypf wrote: Gail, is he on any type of medication, for anxiety or anything else? If so, you may want to seriously check into the side effects. If not, when you go to the doctor PLEASE research side effects prior to putting him on any drugs, especially those for anxiety type issues. The long term side effects can cause more problems than the initial problem, enough to sometimes make it impossible to stop using the drugs.
I hear what you're saying and understand. Please don't take offense to this comment, I only mean it in the most caring way. But, if they find no medical condition (I pray they don't), PLEASE make sure it is not a lack of proper discipline before you allow them to treat him with medication to settle him down. They are so eager to put these kids on meds that all you have to do sometimes is walk in the door and right back out with a script for something. Sure, it'll help for awhile, but ask them to explain ALL the ill effects of these drugs. (Don't mean to imply anything about your discipline - just concerned for your childs wellbeing.) He's not on any type of medication, just a diet that excludes certain dyes and sugar. I don't like to give medicine to myself or my kids unless they absolutely need it, so that would be my last option. I went through my 3 c-sections without any pain meds because I don't like medicine, lol I'm just weird like that - I like the body to heal itself naturally. I do know that discipline isn't the problem. He is very seldom out of my sight, and he gets a punishment fitting to his "crime". When he has his tantrums, I ignore him (when I can and he's not going to harm himself or someone around him) and don't give in to what he wants. This has been going on for a little over 2 years now. I'm just exhausted daily struggling with him, and my husband is too. It's tested our marriage more than once. Not even our daughter's death did that. |
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