It's Official - He's a Butthead
Apparently Bentley has this need to control everything - his food, his treats, his surroundings and especially his Jillie. This isn't just a behavior issue, it's part of his physical makeup - he's a control freak. Jim (the behaviorist) asked me questions for about an hour and then he told me that Bentley's brain sends that pleasure signal when he's doing the jumping and the biting and that me getting angry or sad or pretty much any of my reactions just enforce the pleasure sensation. (Or something to that effect.) He said that I'm not doing anything wrong and that Bentley likes me. He likes me! I was starting to wonder, LOL. I really liked this guy and was mildly amazed when he asked if Boo just stands there and barks at me. Yup, he does that. I think I found a winner this time. So the plan is an electric collar. He'll come back and fit the collar and then teach me how to put it on Boo in ways that will make him WANT to wear the collar; he'll decide that he's the hottest sheepie going when he's wearing this collar and there's nothing better in the world than wearing it. Then Jim will come back out and show me how to use the collar to "reprogram" Boo. (Reprogram was my word, not his.) I was leary about using an electric collar, but I figure that if I do what Jim says and follow his plan it couldn't hurt. It's certainly something I wouldn't want to mess with on my own, that's for sure. So Jim says that in 3-4 months I will see a new & improved & less obnoxious Bentley. Oh and he said that if left as is, eventually Bentley would become dangerous, since he's slowly learning to how to escalate his obnoxious behavior in order to get a rise out of me. Jim also said that Kayli will be able to get attention from me without Boo having a fit and that would really ease my guilt over bringing this O.B. into the house. I am so happy! Jim won't be back with the collar for another week, but just knowing that there is hope for Boo gives me the strength to deal with his biting and jumping on me from behind. So Woo Hoo ~ there is hope for the Butthead! |
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Sounds great Jil  . I hope it really works out for you. He's a super sheepie and needs super love and understanding.
All the best. Uncle Pete |
| Goodluck Jil. I hope this is the right trainer and that your boy will do just fabulous under his guidence.
Fingers and toes crossed for success. |
| That sounds rough. I'm really impressed by your commitment to working with Bentley. When Chum stands and barks at me, I turn my back and walk away -- but she's never tried following and jumping up on me (benefit of having a 'husky' older dog). I can only imagine how annoying and frustrating that must be. I hope the new methods help. Hang in there!! |
Valerie, that is EXACTLY what Bentley does! If he's not getting attention or he's bored or just for the heck of it. At the beginning I could turn & walk away, but he's figured out that he can wrap his paws around my shoulders and follow me. It's very annoying and frustrating! Add to it the biting and I'm frankly surprised I haven't smacked him silly him yet!  Any sort of attempts to gain physical control over him just exacerbates the situation.
He's such a pill most of the time but at bedtime he's as sweet as could be. It's the only time I'm not on guard, and his saving grace - for now. He is making progress in other areas, though. I was just able to brush him for a few minutes without feeding him dinner at the same time! Good times, they are a-coming! |
| Hi Jil,
Hmm for the past year Merlin has turned into something I didn't have a name for..thanks to you, I know it's the obnoxious BUTT-HEAD snydrome! Not as bad as what you describe in your household, however - but very stubborn and bossy. You know, reading your post...you sort of stepped in and helped out with Bentley after the passing of your sweet girl, Belle. I'm sure they couldn't have been more different in personalities. Yet, you stuck with this boy where others not as devoted would have returned him and certainly given up on him. Nope, not you...you've spent an enormous amount of time, money and commitment on this Butt-Head. What an angel you are!! You're one of those special angels for sheepies, first with Miss Belle and now Bentley boy. These guys really needed someone to watch over them and you stepped up to the plate. Kayli deserves special mention too as sibling to her younger brother must be a challenge. I'm interested in what changes you may see in Bentley and please keep us informed. Hope this works out for you! Good Luck! Marianne and the boys |
| Good news! Lots of work but if anyone can do it you can Jil! It sounds like you got a really good trainer this time....any bites from Kayli
Uncle Pete- glad to see you back, Bentley is in great hands |
| If Kayli didn't bite him, Jim must be a good guy! I look forward to the new and improved Bentley! |
| Goodluck with the training and with the electric collar. Please please be careful with that thing, I have seen way too many animals hurt and burned with those just because they went off at even the tiniest wimper or worse that the dog after a while became desensitized to it and it just kept going off and the dog didnt care and so it left scars. Hopefully you have good luck with it than some people I know and everything goes well. Sounds like that trainer is cool and knows whats up and stuff. |
| Jill, I know you love Bently too much to do anything hurtful so BEST OF luck with the new training method. There is a huge difference between shocking to hurt and shocking to train and I am 100% sure your trainer knows the difference and will teach you to use it properly. It sounds like it's not much different than the electric fence idea.
BUTTHEAD BENTLY HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| The way I understand it, I will be the one in control of the collar and Bentley will not know it is me that is causing the diversion. It will be just enough to make him think that what he is doing is not as pleasurable as he thought it would be.
I have a feeling that his new name is going to be Butthead . . . he's even responding to it after only a couple days. 
Marianne, Kayli says thank you for recognizing the difficulties of her recent existence, LOL. We went to Mom's yesterday and when it was time to go home, she went back into the house instead of the van. It was heartbreaking and I keep telling her that it will get better. I don't know if she believes me quite yet. |
| Good luck and please keep us updated as to the mthods, (how you get Bentley to like the collar) and how it works. It sounds like you've found a trainer that understands your boy |
| Stacy, that's the part that's got me curious . . . the only thing he loves more than life itself is bothering me and maybe treats!
It was remarkable how he seemed to know Bentley just from talking to me. Bentley, of course, was lying by my side practically the whole time. He did jump up to greet Jim when he came in the door, but Jim smacked his clipboard on his own leg and Bentley backed off. This is apparently a sign that Bentley is still trainable.
Of course, that doesn't work for me! |
| Isn't there a song "you only hurt the one you love"........... |
Jil, I'll be VERY interested on how Bentley responds to the training. He sounds EXACTLY like Avalon. She does this too and if I get mad and tell her NO...it just makes things worse 
Ignoring her usually calms her down...and she really only does this with me...sigh... She is so stubborn too and doesnt always listen to her commands..I was beginning to think she was a bit slow her breeder said that this 'line' are brats when they are young and take FOREVER to settle down and all of a sudden they 'get it' but geesh...do I have to be the biting toy until then? LOL
And we already were calling her "butthead" we didnt know that we knew the technical term for it  |
| Avalon does seem to take after her Dad, who is known as "The Jerk"
His owner said he is just so happy to be alive that he is a jerk. LOL Sky does too, she is bratty, busy, and stubborn, but I "nipped" the nipping in the bud right away. Along with the normal training ideas, saying no, yelling ouch, replacing with a toy, she learned quickly that if she nips everyone is going to leave the room, the gate goes up and she has to stay alone. I've always told the kids that if she gets going they have to leave the room. It didn't take long. She would much rather be cuddling on the couch, or playing with us, than all by herself. |
| Avalon has come a LONG way since we first got her...then she was biting everyone ALL the time...now we know what 'sets her off' and we try and avoid those situations. The one that gets her the most is if she hasnt had any attention in the morning and then I go into 'her' yard to clean it up...then she goes beserk jumping and trying to take my hand...Usually I say nothing and turn my back on her and walk right back into the house....wait a few minutes and then return outside...when I return she is much calmer. It is so funny to have such opposite dogs...Merlin is so calm with me sometimes you think he is comatose! Then I have Avalon....the jumping bean...hence the nicname...BEANS! And now Faith...who is really starting to come out of her shell with me...she even jumped on me this morning for some attention! |
That's great news about Faith, so when do we get some pics?  |
| Funn y -- I view success as when a dog doesn't jump on me or make a fuss. I like things calm. . . Maggie has been bouncing around hysterical all morning. I'm waiting for her to settle down before I will take her out. But I am glad Faith is becoming more outgoing and trusting. |
| LOL I didnt say I LIKED her jumping on me LOL...but I take it as a good sign that she is feeling more comfortable with me...she has a LONG way to go with my hubby...she is wary of men in general and he isnt home with her like I am...
And pics...well none yet...when I take the camera out she gets all weirded and starts cowering...a few more sessions with the camera and I should have some pics...but not digital...so it may take a week to get some pics  |
| Ahhh! Got it. You just never know. People at my dog park seem to think it is entirely ok (and maybe even adorable) for their dogs to jump on people. Not me! My friend just commented that Maggie's antics have made Chumley become model dog, like she is consciously demonstrating positive behavior for her unruly housemate. It is very cute. |
| i had a behaviorist come to my house and interview me like that, his conclusion was that jack, a total butthead at the time, was unmanageable and should be returned to the breeder (what a quitter) jack is now sitting on my feet cuddling with the cat. how unmanageable!!!! i called up the behaviorist a few months ago (1 yr from last seeing him) and told him how jack was behaving and he said "well we all make mistakes" i retaliated with "especially when you're an idiot" and hung up. Jack and I had a good laugh, or at least i think Jack was laughing with me......maybe it was just a well timed yawn.
anyway -- my point was, take what someone who doesn't know your dog says about him/her with a grain of salt. |
| Wow that's awesome. Any hints for how you turned his behavior around? |
Valerie wrote: Wow that's awesome. Any hints for how you turned his behavior around?
time, puppies are puppies, and generally, also buttheads when they mature, as long as they've had consistant training and know what is wrong, they generally will do it less. Jack is still a work in progress, sometimes he amazes me with blazen disregard for the "rules" around here, but we keep on top of it, and as a result, he's a doll. |
| Jil,
I'm very excited that you've found someone to help with Boo!!
Can't wait to hear the techniques and progress being made! |
| Hey, Tammy - LOVE your new avatar!!
Chris |
| Thanks, Chris! It's the shot I used for my Christmas card. |
| I don't think they grow brains till there at least 3 or 4 LOL, then again some just never grow up, my 11 year old still bahaves like a pup, but that is the sheepie nature, bundle of furry fun.
Interesting about the electric collar, will be interested to see how that works & if there is a change in his behaviour. In Australia they are totally banned, non to be imported in and fined if caught using one on a dog! |
| Tammy I love your new avatar too |
| Ed, it's great to hear from you again! When do we get new pics of Jack aka Butthead? LOL |
| You'll be interested to hear that Boo has been great the past couple days, excpet his need to keep Floof and the cats away from me is stronger than ever.
He started the jumping and I calmly told him to down (I was feeling overly confident, ha ha) and . . . he DID! Right away. It was a little frightening, if you know what I mean! Tammy, your avatar is great! |
Quote: In Australia they are totally banned, non to be imported in and fined if caught using one on a dog!
As a 100% positive trainer I wish that was the same all over. I really don't want to offend anyone, and every one is entitled to their opinion, and work with their dog the way they want to. But honestly, those things just scare the daylights out of me. Not only the physical dangers, that can be prevented if handled carefully, but the potential pychological problems that they can cause. I have seen many dogs who have been turned into basketcases as a result. If a dog is not responding to training it is usually because the communication is lacking, for whatver reason. When I assess people with their dogs the biggest thing I find is that the dog is not understanding what is being requested, and some simple changes in body language and correct timing of rewards can solve that. The general rule of behavior modification is to start with the least harsh possible method, which is all positive, and then give enough time to work. Then re-evaluate the situation, and if no progress, the plan is adjusted. It would be only in extreme cases that I can see a behaviorist with a degree in that area, ( as right now anyone can call themselves a behaviorist) suggest using one without working up gradually to it. Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" is an excellant read for how and why positive methods can be used for training. I really had to mention this, as those "training tools" have been banned for good reason. They may work for a particular problem, but with a negative impact on other behaviors and the mental well-being of the dog. I would suggest anyone to be very leery of using them and if anything does not seem right then trust your judgement. |
| Thankyou Bosleys Mom, I was trying to find a way to say what I think of the electric collars as the stories here in Australia on the damage done to dogs both mentally and physically made the australian government ban them completely, you spelled it all out in your post. Positive training is always the way to go, personally I love clicker training and have had wonderful results with that. I did not want to offend anyone, but my views on the electric collar is well let's say, it breaks their spirit and to control a dog & make it submissive with a shock is not for me. |
| Everyone is entitled to their opinions and thank you for putting it in a civil and well thought out manner. If we could get high powered officials to speak to each other in such a way we'd probably have a higher functioning political system!
The thing about training methods is that the same methods do not work for every being. I spent a few years working in the psychology laboratory of the college I attended and did extensive work in positive and negative reinforcement training in rats. Number one, there was no mistreatment of the animals and no invasive procedures AT ALL! (I was part of the antivivisection society so I am big against animals being used in experimentation.) That being said, there is a place for negative reinforcement in training. Out of say 100 rats, there was always one or two that did not respond to positive reinforcement. No matter what motivation, what treats, what positive stimulus you gave them, they wouldn't 'play along'. These rats, when given negative stimulus, would turn around and 'play along' or participate in training. I'll give a brief explanantion of the training, otherwise we'll be here all day. We used a Skinner box for training. It's generally a glass box with a light, a feeder, a push bar and a metal floor. The food is either controlled by the trainer from a button outside the box or by the rat from the push bar inside the box. The rats are only in the box for their training, they live in very plush condos in their off time. The box uses the exact same method of conditioning as clicker training. First learn that the noise means treat, then when you do the behavior that the trainer likes, you get a treat/click. When we did find a rat that didn't want to train we brought the professor in. None of the students did any of the negative reinforcement, we were only underclassmen and didn't have the experience, it was also a very rare occurence. The negative stimuli, which came in the form of the electric stimulus, would cause the rats to become more attentive to the positive reinforcement happening at the other end of the box. It usually only took twice or three times of the rat going into the charged area for it to realize that that behavior was unwanted and if it performed the behavior being asked of it there were big rewards to be had. (I put that into people terms instead of scientific terms. )
When used with education and purpose, negative stimulus and in this case electric stimulus can be an effective tool. We also need to remember that this isn't the shower scene from Lethal Weapon and it isn't a car battery being hooked up. The shock is more of a vibration than a zap. Yes, I've been part of a study where I've been shocked as negative stimulus so I have been there. The shock should always be in direct proportion to the size of the subject. The same collar isn't used on a Newfoundland and a pocket dog. If Jil has found a trainer that is experienced in this and that she feels good about I have every confidence in the world that this method is being used in a safe and secure environment. She wouldn't let anything happen to Bentley and if the trainer does anything that seems hinky, Kayli can bite him. Good luck Jil, one of these days he'll get it. Keep your head up and think positive!!! |
| I think the key is, responsibility when using one of these collars and in the hands of someone that doesn't understand dogs it could be dangerous. That's not the case with Jil. She took on the challenge of this boy when others had given up on him and is trying everything possible that could work.
A year and half ago a man showed up at our dog park with his dog. He introduced himself to all of us then proceeded to explain that his dog had one of these collars. This was the last resort for this dog as she was very aggressive to other dogs and supposed to be put down. He and his wife had begged they be allowed to rescue her from death row at the shelter and work with her. We all downed our dogs and he brought her in the park. It's a very long story but eventually with the use of this collar she became a regular at the offleash dog park and not once did she ever attack another dog. The collar was eventually removed and she now wears a regular collar. Before this experience I would probably have said the same thing - but in this situation, I saw that in certain cases they could be made to work. The other choice can possibly be too extreme as in the case of the dog above. I once asked a local pet store about the collar and was glad to find out, that these were kept behind the counter and no one was allowed to purchase one until the store owner personally spoke to them. Next, the dog would be brought in for a fitting. Again, responsibility is the key. I'm not advocating this particular use of equipment above positive reinforcement but do know that in certain circumstances it can be the last resort. Take for example, pedofiles in our society in some situations are shocked while watching films to reprogram their brains to not associate certain stimulus with pleasure..it's sorta the same thing. In the hands of an inexperienced dog owner, I agree they could be so detrimental to the dog and cause great harm. To a dog that has very serious issues that are ingrained in his/her personality it may be the last resort. Jil is one of the good guys, having saved a previous sheepie that had many health issues and was older, she provided her with a forever home to make the last few months of her life as wonderful as possible. Even at the expense of the her finances and most importantly the pain of losing Belle after only a few months. Now she's taken on Bentley, where others may have just given him away. Yup, Jil is one of the good ones and I have no doubt she's one of the responsible ones. Marianne and the boys |
| Well said Marianne! I agree, sometimes extreme measures are called for. If the only other choice is to put him down is there really a choice? Good luck Jil, I'm sure all will go well
bdx4 |
| I am glad to hear that Boo is already doing better, Jil!
It's very nice to see/hear a well thought out and civil discussion on this issue! I agree, it is a difficult decision to make, but trust that Jil is doing what is in Bentley's best interest.
Thanks, Jil & Stacey, for your compliments on my new avatar! |
| Thankyou Mxmmm that post was very interesting to read. Not knowing much about the collars and only going on what I have heard about them and the negative things about them it was interesting to read about your experience on stimuli used in the appropriate way.
Jil I hope things work out for bentley and he becomes of wonderful K9 citizen for you, not knowing his history & story, but reading all the posts on this discussion I hope that things work out for bentley and I know that you have been and are working hard to make things right for him.
You relly are a very special person  |
| Extreme situations call for extreme measures, and if all else fails, then sometimes there only is one last chance. The key is "when all else fails", and there is no other choice. What I have seen are those that jump on the wrong training tools at the wrong times. I had a 3 month old golden retreiver come into my puppy class once, with a prong collar on. I don't allow any aversives in my classes, so it was removed. But it was another trainer who had suggested that it be used to "show the dog whose boss". We took an alternate approach and the puppy was much happier. Another example is that a well-known local "positive" trainer is raved about by his students, yet he does not allow treats in his classes, and still used the ancient technique of "hanging" the dog as a correction. But because he also uses praise he calls himself a positive trainer, and the folks who attend his cources just don't know the difference. I encourage people to see what kind of a relatuionship they want to ahve with thier dog, and work towards that goal. Do the homework, and get references from any trainer and request acedemic qualifications from someone who calls themselves a behaviorist. Anyone can read a few books, and try a few things out, learn some dog vocabulary that sounds good and then call themselves an expert. And many people are ready to try something that shows immediate results, and looks good. Modifying behavior that is ingrained takes time, as months or years of rewarding behavior needs to be turned around. Rescue dogs take weeks, and sometimes months to show who they really are, but hopefully by then they would have learned new rules, and structure that they can depend on to remain consistent. I wish all the best for any dog in thier new home, whether it is a puppy or an adult. They have so much to teach us about them and teach us about ourselves. Are we up to the challenge of working with them, through the baggage that they may carry? Many of us have been through a lot and have dogs that have been through a lot. It is not an easy task, but it is so rewarding to have a wonderful relationship with a companion that has developed through mutual trust and respect. |
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