I've been bit
I have recently been separated from my husband so Max and I have been living on our own for the first time. Things seemed to be going well until lately. He suddenly thinks he owns the place. I was the one who was always in charge of training and he used to listen to me and be somewhat obedient. It seems that any time I have to discipline him now, (about eating garbage, being somewhere he's not supposed to be, anything) he growls at me and tries to intimidate me. I'm not sure how to deal with this. When we went to obedient school the trainer told me to jerk his leash. I have tried this and have been bit by him twice. He broke skin both times. He will even jump up on me and grab my arm with his paws. I know that I'm not supposed to show him that I am afraid, but lately when he gets like this, I really am afraid of him and what he is capable of. I don't want to be afraid of my own dog, but I don't want to give him up either. I love him so much and he is usually such a good companion when he is not being reprimanded. I know that the most sensable suggestion would be to take him back to training, but it is very expensive around here. Has anyone else dealt with an agressive sheepie like this? What should I do? |
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| How old is Max? Is he neutered? |
| I'm really sorry that you are going through a hard time with both your ex and your doggie. . . I guess when it rains it pours (and it has been pouring here all day). Have you read that book "The Dog Listener. I actually find the author a bit long-winded but she offers alot of insight into why dogs are aggressive and how to handle it. Maybe your dog senses an absence of leadership and is trying to assume that role? Maybe just following some of her non-aggressive dominance strategies will set things right again. Best of luck. Let us know how it goes. . . |
| It does not sound like Max is being agressive. It sounds like he is being quite normal and is defending himself when you are threatening him. He growls to let you know that you are scaring him, and that he would prefer you to leave him alone and not hurt him. And that is a warning that should be respected so that it doesn't escalate. Many trainers will suggest physical punishments, and yes, jerking on a chain or collar is exactly that. Agression breeds agression, so I personally never recommend or use any type of hurtful or scary corrections, and my dogs would never have any reason to bite me in fear or defense.
Perhaps you can give us some idea on the problems you are having and we can give you some suggestions on how to manage and/or train him without putting him on the defensive. As for getting into the garbage, that also is perfectly normal behavior. If you were in a room with a lovely freshly baked apple pie would you not be tempted to have a piece? Put the garbage out of his reach, lock it up etc. It takes a long time to train a dog NOT to go into the garbage, once they have had a taste, and I cannot imagine it being ever 100%. It is just too tempting. So take a deep breath, calm down, get your wounds taken care of. You probably do not have an agressive dog, but he can become agressive, like any dog could, if he is defending himself from harm. In the training thread you can post some specifics and get some non-violent was of handling situations. I would also look at his excercise level. Is he getting as much now as he did prior to your break-up? A tired dog is a happy dog, and often more compliant. That might make a difference, also. |
| Several suggestions based on my own experience.
1) When Barney was a pup, he decided he didn't want to be caged. When I would attempt to put him in at night he would cower and try to bite me. I would put on a pair of heavy leather work gloves and grab him by his open mouth, he quickly learned that his teeth were useless, and would go in his cage. However there were other times when he responded adversely to discipline and I got nicked by him. This may have been a primitive method of discipline but it did work. 2) As mentioned in other behavior posts and various training books: Begin immediately to establish the rule for him that nothing is free. He must sit before he gets feed, petted, given any attention. There must be the basic bonding establish when you went through training: sit, stay, come, down, stay. If he responds he gets copious praise and rewards. 3) When I got Maggie, (2 yr old rescue) she showed signs of mistreatment and mistrust; any time I tried to get her to do something she didn't want to, or there was fear, she would cower, show her teeth and bite if I wasn't careful. I started with the glove routine, but then when working with a long time trainer (45 yrs with german shephards for police work and drug work) he insisted that she needs to learn that biting is unpleasant: his method, used on dogs that had real biting problems, was to grab the top of the dogs mouth, curling the lips under its teeth, so that if it bit down it would bite its own lips. When I tried this with Maggie, it did the trick. I think the point in these methods, is that you are not doing something that causes the dog to fear you, such as would be the case if you were to strike the dog, but creating a situation in which the dog discovers that its own behavior is unpleasant. Hope this helps. Ideally a good trainer working with you would be great, and maybe later on would be financially feasible, but right now that's out of the question, but you need a faithful and loving companion right now, and I've found that the more my dogs are disciplined and trained, rather that pampered, the more they stick to me like velcro. Above all when you grab the upper jaw and achieve the right effect, give plenty of praise so the dog knows its done good by not biting. |
I would be very hestitant to do something as described by George. What that could do is make the dog fear to have hands around it's face, and then fight to defend himself from people, including vets, and children putting thier hands close to them. The dog has to "feel" comfortable in order to be able to relax. And personally, I am not at all thrilled with the methods that the police use to train their dogs. Much of it is through fear and intimidation, and a police dog is not expected nor used for the same purposes as a family pet. I train my dogs, and ran my obedience classes, with a different type of approach, where the dogs enjoyed being handled, and love training sessions, and looked forward to getting rewords for good behavior. I would not advocate to anyone anything that would make a dog afraid, or bring pain into the equation, and a dog does not look at consequences the same way as we do. Most of the time they look at all the environment surrounding the pain, like if he got hurt in the living room when he got into the garbage that does not mean he will move that same understanding to the garbage in the bathroom. It is more complicated than that. I guess overall it depends on what type of relationship one wants to have with their dog. I look at mine as a part of me, like a team. I am not the big bully that forces them to do stuff they fear, yet they look to me constantly for direction and approval. I am the person who can do anything I want with them, gently and with no fear attached. And they are all very well behaved...happy, pampered yes, but very well-mannered. That is the atmosphere I prefer to work in. But then that is just me  |
| I don't have many words of wisdom, but I can say that I'm going through some of the same things with Bentley. Quickly walking away with my arms crossed in front of me the second I see the jumping behavior start works well, but it's not always possible to get away "in time". He had me afraid of him last week and that is not something I want to experience any time soon.
I've learned that he does not respond well to any sort of reprimand, it just eggs him on, walking away is the only thing that stops him. Being firm in a calm voice also works if he hasn't gotten into the zone. My life is a mess right now due to work issues and I think he senses that. Bentley has only been with me a few months and he's still settling in to a new routine. There are times (like earlier today) that the thought of dealing with him is almost too much handle. Today I took a deep breath and told myself that he is NOT going to win today. Last night I hand fed him and that took him by surprise. Nothing is free is also working - I give him lots of praise when he does what I ask or is behaving in an appropriate manner and today was a really good day after all. I try to get him to the dog park several times a week; that does help, although I don't know what I'm going to do come winter. 
Again, not a lot of help, but I certainly can empathize. |
| Sorry you are having trouble with Max. It sounds pretty typical for a sheepie.
But all is not lost. First I must agree with the others. Aggressive discipline will only encourage a defensive response. And second, someone in another post brought up a good point, the alfa dog position is not a life time appointment. Max may be sensing your life changes and challenging for the rank. We found “shaping” to be a very effective method of training. The principle is very simple. Immediately reward desired behavior and immediately walk away form bad. I smelled like a dog treat for a month because I carried them around in my pocket. If you can’t do that, our trainer suggested putting them in every room of the house. The key is, it has to be immediate. If you have to go the to cupboard to get the treats, your dog has forgotten what it is being rewarded for. (I used very small treats because he was getting so many through the day.) If your dog comes over to you and does not “attack” ( run into you, jump up, put paws on you, bark…..) immediately give a reward and praise. He will learn that coming up nicely gets reward. If he is rowdy in approach immediately turn your back and walk away. Say nothing. Continue to completely ignore and walk away until the desired behavior is done. Then immediately reward and praise. It does not have to be a "training session". You can use this method throughout the day for just about any behavior. Except when ingoring them could be harmful or cause damage to property! If that is the case, physically remove from the situation or take away item. If he doesn't go right back to the behavior or item, reward. I have applied this method to several behaviors. Mojo would be so excited when we got up in the mornings. He would jump around, try to jump on us and herd us off. Made getting my morning coffee a major event. It was so hard not to love on him first thing in the morning but by turning around and ignoring him he got the message. Thing are much nicer now. I get up and he is sitting there nicely waiting for his morning hug. He would also want to play very aggressively, when I wanted to just sit and love on him. I started by lying on the floor and petting him. The second he would try to nip, I would get up and walk away. Being on the floor really helps with this because he knows that you are there specifically for him. A few minutes later I would try again. Repeated several times in a session for about a week. Now I can sit and love on him without getting mauled. The hardest part was training myself. It is a normal response to say no, don’t, quit….. instead of walking away. The other thing was the immediate reward. It seem strange to reward after he had just been acting out. But what you are rewarding is when he has settled. Even if it is just one second after being a stinker. Hope this helps. Mojo is only nine month and is certainly not perfect, but things are much better using this technique. |
| i have been bit by walter more times than i can count. dont get discouraged, there are many things you can do to help the situation!
i agree with the sentiments expressed above, physical punishment will only produce an aggressive response. i highly recommend avoiding punishment and trying positive reinforcement only. i went through 3 trainers (one of which was the illinois police dog trainer who used 'corrections' that produced some of the scariest moments of my life when i tried to do these alone with walter). in the end only a behaviorist that i found at my vet who recommended positive reinforcement helped. i used to have a confrontation with walter daily, but since i switched to positive reinforcement i havent had a bite in months. you are more than welcome to pm me if you have any questions , and if youd like the behaviorist emailed me a wealth of information and instructions on how to deal with an aggressive dog that i would be happy to forward to you if you are interested! good luck! |
| There is some terrific advice here. I hope it is clear that you are not alone in this. Many of us went through a biting stage with our dogs got through it with good results and happier more trusting and trustworthy dogs. So I'll just add a few more thoughts.
Your safety comes first. We have supported people on this forum who have surrendered beloved animals when they could not cope with the time this process can take, or who had young children and could not tolerate any risk of biting. Patience and repetition are key. You are not going to solve this overnight. But be assured you can solve it. You have to be firm and you have tomrespond the same way each time -- walking away from bad behavior and NILIF -- even after 3 years I still feed Henry by hand once every couple of weeks and he has to do something to get every mouthful. Finally for the times you need to get something done quickly with your dog and you can't just walk away or you just feel scared, I used a soft mesh muzzle. Henry could bark, eat small treats and drink with it on but he couldn't bite me. It made me more confident with him when I had it ready to put on him, I kept it on my arm for many months and knew that any time I needed to I could restrain him. When he wanted my attention and came over and mouthed my arm I could put it on him immediately. Henry would not be with me today without that muzzle, I would have given him up in fear. I used it regularly for months. At this point, I haven't used it in years. Good luck! |
| Barney tried to bite me this weekend too. It had never happened and really frightened me and my husband said to not be frightened but to let him know who's in charge--which is hard to do when you're frightened! It was rainy outside and we had just brushed Barney and he kept trying to lie down on the wet deck, which we didn't want him to do. So I kept telling him to stand up. Finally, he wouldn't get up anymore so I went over and grabbed him by his collar and pulled up up, which apparently he didn't like and he growled and jumped up and snapped at me. He's never snapped at me like that before...just puppy nipping. What really amazed me too was how fast he was and what little it seemed to take to tick him off...So, I have no words of advice, but just letting you know I know what you are going through... |
| Thank you all so much for all of your stories and advice.
It really is comforting to know that many of you have been through this. I really did not want to give Max up and I am always scared to tell people about the biting incidences because they always say I should get rid of him. I love him so much and am definitely willing to wait it out and try anything necessary to restore a good, trusting relationship with him. Thanks again for all of the acknowledgement. |
| You have gotten a lot of great advice. When Maggie was 3 months old she snapped at me during a training session and I was devistated. My trainer advised me to hand feed her every meal to re-establish dominance. It did the trick..I agree with positive reinforcement as a happy dog is more likely to continue learned behaviors than a scared dog. |
| I'm embarrassed to admit that my beloved sheepie snapped at me this weekend also...for the first time ever! It caught me way off-guard. We were in a small bathroom and he decided that he did not want a bath, I reached for him (he was cornered) and he growled and snapped at me. Didn't bite me, but really surprised me. I ordered him outside immediately where he stayed for an hour (I completely ignored him). Then I retrieved him and he went into the tub willingly. He seemed to get the message. (I got this idea from the Dog Listener) |
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