Thanks for all the GREAT tips on Aggression and rat poison..
I have to tell you that Shanti (now 21 months olds) started to growl more frequently. Not at me (ok, once that I without knowing step on his hair and he growled at me but as he felt me surprised or scared he start to give me kisses!!!  that was the last time).
Anyway, lately, when people try to pet him bending down he growls very strong... even to my mom, who knows and loves her since he was a puppy...  – I know that lodge would be a threat to dogs… but can’t dogs tells the difference between threatening people and known people?
The other day we went to my niece kinder garden to pick her up and all the kids wanted to pet him… I taught them how to pet him- He was with his leash, but the teacher (pregnant) came and bend down and give him a hug and he got sooo mad…. I understand him. Every time we go out, everybody wants to pet him and he gets annoy… During Christmas, I was so worried/not relax  as my nephews were at home… (one of them –2 y/o- ask him:.--- “…ati –he can’t says Shanti- do love me?) sooooo cute… anyway… I tried to keep an eye on them so Shanti won’t growl… but really… with other dogs never happened this… I feel that Shanti will never growls at me, but how do I teach him to be careful with my nephews and nice? Any tips? Thanks… Dani and “ill-humored” Shanti….
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| Again me…
Questions: It is something that I should do and/or teach him, so I will be relax when people came over… he loves to be pet but lately I am so worried about his reaction… yesterday, he was standing up and my nephew (4 y/o was petting him with his leg and I was so worried he might bite him, mostly because he (nephew) is so scare of dog… we have made a lot of improvements with this kind of “phobia”… I don’t to step back) Does Shanti need a girlfriend… maybe? Tips, please….. Besos dani |
| 1. Do not let anyone bend over and greet or pet Shanti until he has earned your trust better.
2. Do not isolate him either. 3. He must know the sit command. If he knows it use it. Have each person who wishes to pet Shanti make him sit. Carry small tibits of his favorite treat, give it to the person who wishes to pet Shanti, then have them make him sit. 4. Don't worry about whether he trusts people he knows vs, peolpe he doesn't. Make him sit and take treats form whomever you allow to pet him. Do not take him into crowds of friendly people for a few months. Just one on one. 5. Make sure he is not losing his sight or hearing in either ear. 6. Start making him "work" for any food. At meal times make him sit before you give him his food. Try making him sit while he is eating. If he will not, use a treat that is more ymmie than his dinner and ask him to sit for the treat. If he sits, give him the treat. Then get another delicious treat, have him sit and stay. Move the food bowl out of his way with your foot and then pick it up and put a treat in it. Before too long he will be letting you mess with his food bowl without growling or snapping. 7. Make sure he is not acting dominant. Research dominance behaviour. There is tons about it on the web. You have to be the dominant one. 8. Do not pet and coddle him without reason for a while. If you want to pet him, make him fetch something. Or make him lay. Or make him give you his paw. Make him work for his petting as well as for his food. 9. If he is not neutored, you may want to get him fixed. You will still have to exert a bit of discipline until he isn't ever growling or snapping at you even if you step on both his feet. Abbi is NEVER allowed to snap or growl at ANY person -- EVER, for any reason. I do not care if she gets hurt, she is not to ever growl, snap, or act up. And even with my no tolerance, my 8 year old daughter has gotten her to snap at her. I do not think that will happen again, as they both were tongue lashed to an inch of their lives. There is no excusable time that a dog or kid can use physical violence to express their pain, anguish, or irritability. Now I do allow barking, whinin, squealing, yelling, and noise-making to express their distraught. But nothing physical. It gets out of control too easily. Be patient, persistent, consistent, and stubborn when it comes to bad behaviour. 10. Try teaching Shanti something new every month or so. Then have him do it every other day or so. Go through all of his tricks and reward him. Let him know what he CAN do, distract him from what he shouldn't do, and reward him for doing things right. You will establish rapport and give him a way of showing off for visitors without having to be petted. He will get a since of accomplishment and earn your trust. Shanti is just too beautiful. I think I might spoil him if he were mine. But just think how much more beautiful he will be when he knows a few tricks! |
| Thanks a lot for your Good advices.
This week, the lady whom Shanti growled, came back and told me that Shan bitted her (she showed me the scratches) woow… that first time. But we thought that happened because when she was going to say bye with a huge hug, the 3 of us were tense as a girl with a distrustful look were at my fence, so we think that also made Shanti nervous. It was the first time he bites, moreover, somebody he knows.
Now, every time this couple (contractors) came to home, I grab Shanti so he won’t jump on them. Also because the lady is now scare of him. In a few I will post answers of the points that you made in your reply- dani NOTE: THIS IS ANOTHER LADY THAT SHANTI GROWLED (THE THIRD VICTIME). HE KNOWS HER ALSO AS SHE WAS COMING HOME FOR THE LAST MONTH WITH HER HUSBAND AS A CONTRACTOR. THIS WAS BEFORE XMAST; HE DID THE SAME WITH THE PREGNANT TEACHER. BOTH OF THEM BEND OVER (TO GIVE SHANTI A HUG) TO WISH HIM HAPPY HOLLYDAYS. SHANTI GROWLED AT HER AND THANKS GOD I WAS GRABING HIM BY HIS COLLAR. |
| Below are my answers/and questions in BOLD:
1.Ok. How can I earn my trust again? How should I react when he growls? 2. <Do not isolate him either>. (Now what ie. This people came, he has to go to the patio. He can’t be inside the house while they are working) 3. He knows the sit command but he can't get sited for more than 2 min when he gets exited. I never have tidbits on hand when I need them… 4..< Do not take him into crowds of friendly people for a few months. Just one on one>. I will do that. 5. <Make sure he is not losing his sight or hearing in either ear>. (He has a “general” checkout 4 months ago. 6. Start making him "work" for any food. At meal times make him sit before you give him his food. Move the food bowl out of his way with your foot and then pick it up and put a treat in it. Before too long he will be letting you mess with his food bowl without growling or snapping. He never grows or snaps if I mess with his food. He only gives me a look like… why? 7. I will start searching dominance behavior to learn how to be the dominant one. 8. Do not pet and coddle him without reason for a while. If you want to pet him, make him fetch something. Or make him lay. Or make him give you his paw. Make him work for his petting as well as for his food. This one is great.
9. If he is not neutored, you may want to get him fixed. I don’t want to neutered him. exert a bit of discipline until he isn't ever growling or snapping at you even if you step on both his feet. I have to teach him that…!
10. You will establish rapport and give him a way of showing off for visitors without having to be petted. Didn’t understand this one. Shanti is just too beautiful. I think I might spoil him if he were mine. But just think how much more beautiful he will be when he knows a few tricks! Thanks a lot. You know some much…!!! I know that I spoil Shanti, lets say, a little bit… I will start to research about new tricks to teach him…. Thanks again Besos dani |
| I don't know if this would help, but I started Max (6 months) with obedience school last nite and one of the main things they stressed was that you have to show the dog who is dominate. And one of the exercises they recommended is the " alpha role". Here is a link that sorda explains it : http://www.golden-retriever.com/alpha_r ... y_roll.htm How old is your dog?
Max does not seem to mind doing this. He struggels for a second but then realizes he cant get up. Hope this helps. |
| Thanks Shelly!
I just finished reading that link about the alpha role. I think that will help us with Jack. He is almost 9 months old and I have noticed that when I give him commands he sometimes decides to ignore me. I want him to be very obedient because of his size he can scare people and his favorite thing to do is see someone and bark and run at them. He does stop and will come back to me, but there are certain neighbors that have eye bugging out when he runs toward them. He loves everyone and thinks that everyone loves him too. Annabelle is 6 months old and will do everything we ask of her. |
| Hi,
You've recieved some great advice - I'm just going to add a few of my thoughts. When you described the first incident with the woman giving Shanti a hug - warning bells went off for me. Oh Oh! Never hug a dog! That was her mistake. I should explain I used to be under contract with Shaggy for three years with the Humane Society educating the public about dog behavior. All ages attended, but the main reason for these talks was so as to prevent children from being bitten by a dog and understand dog behavior. I really tried to reinforce that kids should never hug a dog as it is doing one of two things: It's teaching kids that in a way a dog is like a stuffed toy and of course we know they're not. It's getting down to eye level and perhaps staring a dog in the eyes (which is dog language is challenging them!!) Never stare an animal in the eyes!! Most animals in the wild see this as a direct challenge and will be extremely uncomfortable. It's sort of like body language which dogs are more adept at doing than people - saying to them "I want to fight you". You also mentioned the kids were petting Shanti and here's some things I would suggest to you. Shanti should be seated and the children bring a closed fist from their side to allow him to sniff then SLOWLY the child may raise their hand to pet him. To show kids how an animal reads being petted - I would walk in the classroom first thing and lower my hand quickly to the tops of their heads without saying a word. All the kids "flinched" as they didn't know me and if looked as if I was going to hit them on the head. That was important to allow the children to see how their action may be read by a dog that sees them as a stranger. The kids understood this immediately. I think what happened that day with Shanti is the children probably crowded around him - overwhelming him a bit and then the teacher hugged him caused him to react the way he did. As Shanti was unable to move and was held immobalized with a hug (in dog language she was pinning him down in a way.) A puppy is used to being submissive but when it gets into their teens (ha! just like human children) it will try to assert their independence and often challenge authority. The advice you recieved about always remaining the Alpha is right on - this is important. The two legged people in the household have to be the Alpha's or the dog will run the household or try to. Most dogs will see themselves as being equal to the kids if they view the Mom and Dad of the house as the Alpha's. They see the family as their pack. Just like wolves only the male and female Alpha's are the boss of the pack, all the others know their place and follow the rules of the Alpha's. Somewhere on this forum, Fritz had an informative post on suggestions on how to get to establish that you are the Alpha in the household. It was really good! I should mention that if you know your dog really well then hugs are allowed with immediate family members if you feel your dog would be okay. In my family only I was the only one giving Shaggy a hug, but I was the Alpha. Still, I would discourage a child from doing this as the dog may challenge them and better safe than sorry. I aplogize for the long post and hope it helps somewhat. Good luck with Shanti. Marianne |
Marianne wrote: I aplogize for the long post and hope it helps somewhat. Good luck with Shanti.Marianne
Please, don't apologize, I love this kind of mails where I can learn a lot. FYI: Thanks guys for all the info. I started to ask Shanti to sit for everything he might ask (ie. go outside, food and playing with his ball -he doesn't really understand this one as he always runs away and get ready for the catch –“like a volley player”.. now he thinks, why should I sit down before?, she is taking away all the fun!!!) Anyway. I read the website, did a research on internet, and took the dust of a book that I have: "how to speak Dog by Stanley Coren" it is very good. Marianne: this book describes “staring a dog in the eyes” among other things that I am learning. And also I will look out for Fritz advice. I should tell you that Shanti haven't growled since holydays. and never, never growled to my niece and nephews. Because of the last episode with this lady, I was disturbed when kids were petting him, and I didn't want to pass that fear to them. I want them to trust Shanti (right now is the only pet in the family). Also, what is very hard to do is not to pet him a lot. Just do it as a reward... He is soooooo sweet with me... Besos dani |
| Danik,
Sounds like you are on the road to SUCCESS! Honestly, I pet Abbi for no reason at all. But just not for a long period of time. They seem to become "needy" and demanding if we just sit around petting them. But an occasional "hi There!" petting is ok. I had to get myself to ask Abbi to sit before I petted her for a while. That led to other things which made me so proud that I try new tricks with her every week now. I like all the input you have received above. There is so much we can share. I forgot about some of the points made by the above posts! It is so good to get others perspectives. As soon as I can I will still clarify my previous remarks, but I am spending too much time on the internet again. By the way, do you have children of your own? How old are they? The whole family should practice achieving some measure of dominance, even your husband. |
agingright wrote: By the way, do you have children of your own? How old are they? The whole family should practice achieving some measure of dominance, even your husband.
No. I am single. Hey, we are making a lot of progress with Shanti. Now he has to sit before I open the door to him. |
| I think you are doing great!
I know I promised to clarify, but this is a hectic month so far. I hope the whole year isn't like this. Abbi found a box of rat poison yesterday and tried to eat it. I took it away before she ate more than a few granules, but I took her to the vet for a blood test anyways. I do not know how that box of poison got where it was, but I am checking around for more. So far you have no problems feeding him, fiddling with his food while he's eating it, and he sits before you let him out. You can also get him to stay for up to a coupe of minutes? So put a treat in front of him while he is sitting and see if you can get him to stay. People always find it amazing when you can get your dog not to run over and eat the treat. How about jumping up on the couch or chair before you do. If you want to allow him on the furniture, make sure he does so WITH permision (most of the times). |
| How is Abbi doing? I am sooooo afraid of that would happen to Shanti.. Could you found out from where the poison came?
I am gonna try the new trik. 
Regarding <How about jumping up on the couch or chair before you do. If you want to allow him on the furniture, make sure he does so WITH permision (most of the times).> since the very first day Shanti arrived home, I 'd never, never let him jump on my bed or couch... Mostly because I was aware that he would be a big dog, so if he'd try to sleep on my bed, I would sleep on the floor!!! jeje
The only thing that Shanti does and did always is to wait for me with his 2 front legs on my bed (some pictures are in my link) when I am getting ready to go to sleep. So it is a kind of saying "good night" for him
Hope that poison was nothing... Hope that Abbi is okl. besos dani |
| My server has been having problems. All of my e-mails' have been gibberish. Sorry I did not respond.
Yes, Abbi is fine. Turns out that D-Con rat and mice poison causes hemorrages, which can be detected almost immediately by looking for bruising on the skin and gums. The vet said take her in for simple $10 blood test immediately. I did. She had me wait an hour, charged me $40 and said the test was inconclusive. I am still furious. Thinking of reporting her to some official institution. Found out more about the poison from the label of the package and calling the D-Con company, who said a 73 lb dog would have to eat two whole packs to die, but 1 pack could cause liver or kidney damage. (Abbi only ate a few granules, so it isn't an issue I need to worry about). Poison control said I should have just waited and observed. Everyone agrees the vet took advantage of my concern. The poison was put out by my neighbor, who is trying to sale her house. Abbi had gotten into her garage, so it was my and Abbi's fault, not my neighbor's. Although I wonder what would happen if Abbi found a poisoned rat now??? Abbi is in our house mostly, so I am not going to worry about it too much. I will try to check the yard before she goes out from now on, as someone (I think the meter reader) left our side gate open and that is how Abbi got out and into my neighbor's garage(quincho or patio). I have since put a plastic tie on the gate, so if it was one of the kids it will not happen again. Thanks for worrying about Abbi. I was so worried and then so furious. I am so glad you are teaching Shanti some tricks and things seem to be progressing. Keep up the good work. |
| Thanks Gosh that Abbi eat "mostly" nothing!!!
I can't believe when vets work more for money than for pets. During Shanti's first year I went from vet to vet talking and searching about the "human side" of the pro. Now I have a vet who is not "commercial", he send Shanti food, has Shanti folder (health history), etc. He sees him at least once at month when he delivers Shanti foods. So finally I trust or found a good vet. Abrazos to you and Abbi... 
dani |
| Hi Danik, I am Fritz and here is the information I posted to someone else's dominance issue. Maybe some of it will be useful for you.
I have experienced life with 6 OES rescues over the last 25 years, some with behavioral "issues". It is really, really important to address this issue immediately and consistently. Dogs are pack animals and they need to know their "place" in the pack. Clearly, their "place" needs to be subordinate to yours. Dogs test this in a variety of ways and the way to assert your "alpha-ness" leadership is through training. If there is a local training group that offers puppy classes or basic obedience, think about enrolling immediately. Try to find a class that uses positive reinforcement. The expense is usually modest and it's a really good investment to ensure the puppy gets conditioned properly. You can also find a number of good websites with training articles. Also, consider leaving a short leash (or string, or rope) on the dog at all times, even when in the house. A "Gentle Leader" leash is a good training and management tool and comes with a booklet on use for modifying negative behavior. You'd be surprised how subtle the signals are that dogs read when they are determining who the leader is. Some "rules" for establishing pack order: - All dogs wait at doorways and let humans go through first - All dogs (blocking doorways, hallways) must move and make way for humans - All dogs must "earn" their treats, by obeying some command - All dogs are fed after humans have eaten - All dogs must "earn" their dinner; the dish is put down and the dog must wait to eat until the human says it's OK - Puppies who are assertive or aggressive are not allowed to play tug of war or rough wrestling with humans - Puppies must "earn" the right to play with specific toys, the human initiates the activity, not the puppy - Puppies who are assertive or aggressive can not be put in a position where their head is at the same height as humans' -- e.g., do not allow to play on the bed or sofa when you are lying down - Puppies who are assertive or aggressive should not be allowed to share humans' bed -- a sign of equal pack status. - Puppies who are assertive are not allowed to "stare down" their human Along with establishing that the human is the leader, alpha, you need to reward any progress toward the behavior you desire. (I had a young OES who was one step from being euthanized for badly biting two people over "possession" issues -- the behavior escalates as the dog matures). If the pup growls over the food bowl, take it away. Return the food and only leave it when the dog doesn't growl, then make an enormous fuss about what a good dog it is. Ditto toy possession -- teach the pup to "drop it" on command, and give a food reward and lots of praise for every step toward achieving that command. To this day, I still make all my sheepies sit and wait in front of their food until I tell them is's OK to eat. Be wary of training methods that use "alpha roll", physical yanking shock collars, sprays or major physical "correction" of the pup -- I have seen thse methods backfire in a terrible way. The easiest command to teach a puppy is to "sit", and I'd suggest that you train that behavior immediately, and reward the puppy consistently when it obeys. The easy way to teach the sit is hard to describe in words, but here goes. - Find a food treat that the puppy really loves. - Bend over the dog and hold the collar with your left hand - With your right hand, hold the treat just over and above the dog's head - Fairly slowly, move the treat back toward the dog's tail, without letting it back up and say "sit" - When the dog sits, give lots of praise and another treat and say "good sit" This works better than the method of pushing the dog's hindquarters down. Once a dog knows how to sit, teaching them to lie down is also fairly easy. - Tell the dog to sit -- reward with treat and praise - Holding the dog's collar while it is sitting, put a treat in front of it's nose and move it forward and down toward the floor while saying "down". - When the dog is down, give lots of praise and another treat and say "good down" Good luck and best wishes. |
| Poor Shanti is going to get tired of earning his keep it sounds like. But we have a lot of GREAT advice for dealing with aggression now. I am going to send everyone to search for this one next time we have an inquiry.
Danik I am so glad you have a vet you can work with, it is very important. I remember in Bahia Blanca when I changed vets and found one who had a groomer who would even come to the house to pick Abbi up! It was so much easier. That vet helped me with a great many things and wasn't "commercial" at all. Too bad I switched just a few months before we returned to the States. I read with interest that you are thinking about geting a kitten/cat. Let me know how that works out. I think Shanti was getting better and better last time I checked. He hasn't growled at you for some time has he? And wasn't some of the problem mis cues, I mean wasn't one of the growling incidents because someone tried to hug him? Abbi doesn't growl when people do that, but she does give me this panicky look. I have been telling kids and adults alike not to grab her around her neck. She thinks they are trying to choke her and she doesn't like it. Boy, he looks fluffier than ever in the picture. Are you having a cool Fall or a wet one? Give him a hug and if you get a cat let me know what happens. We have been considering a cat, rabbit or something lately too. Cann't rescue another OES at the moment. Most of them are too far away and the fees are out of our reach at this time. Besides, even my loving little Abbi seems too excited for some dogs. She just wants to play soooo bad. give the young guy a hug for me! |
| FRITZI, thanks a lot for the tips. I will print it out to have them as reference.
I am very proud to tell you that Shanti has changed a lot lately. Maybe at the beginning of 2004 somebody changed my Shanti for other OES… jejeje….
He is being so gentle, calm. When people came home he only goes nuts when he gives them “his welcome “… you know… he jumps like crazy, bring toys to them (muddy ones), etc. Also, with kids … a great behavior. Let my 3-year-old nephew to pet him and follow him everywhere… I just bought a kind of divider for my patio, so I could place Shanti on the other side when people came to visit. Till now, I didn’t have to use it  . I just have to calm him down the first 5 minutes.
AGINGRIGHT, Regarding the: · Cat. I am not a cat person since cats always “attack” my dogs, but as I have some unwanted visitors on my patio, I thought of having one, but have to be a baby cat so both get use to each other. Hope Shanti would be gentle with him or her while playing. I would love to have another OES, more when a see the pictures of puppies, but I don’t have space for 2… · Vet.: yes. Both of them are great. They might be still laughing about the strange things that I found on Shanti skin: his teats… jeje
Yes. The problem was when was grabbed around his neck. I am the only one that can do this. I can imagine Abbi’s face and with the goggles. Shanti turned 2 year old. I am taking pictures. The Avatar picture was taken last year after baths… that look will last for 3 days, maybe… Besos dani |
| Abby should be getting vitamin k.Our vets give it to any dog who has eaten rat bate please call anouther vet and ask them about it. |
| No. I am not placing any rat bate, because I am afraid of Shanti eating it. So I have a rat trap. |
| This post is old. When Danik and I first discussed the rat poison and all was back in February. Danik was having problems with her beloved Shanti back in November and December. Somebody picked up an old post.
Yeah, vitamin K is the antidote, as it increases blood clotting factors and thus can prevent hemorraging and should have been what the vet offered, instead of JUST the $40 bill. In bad cases there is no antidote, and in Abbi's case she was fine without it. Never hemorraged anywhere and may not have even ingested any of the poison. As I mentioned earlier, I scraped off her tongue and I was running right behind her when she found the stuff. Which must have been quite tasty because she did not want to leave the box behind. And the box was still full. And in somebody else's garage. But I am now better informed. I only use rat poison as a last resort, but all of my neighbors use it constantly. So there isn't much I can do ... but keep her in my yard, generally with me or one of the girls present. If we leave her out there for the day we do a poop scoop and Quick-check just to make sure there isn't something out there she can get into. The girls do that every day anyways as part of their chores. So I feel ok about the situation. Right now Abbi is at my feet and in more danger of getting stepped on than poisoned. But thanks for the information. Danik: I know what you mean about them only looking so fluffy for just a blink of the eye. But they are a joy to watch tearing(running) around the yard or sleeping at our feet. And I too thought maybe I could desensitize Abbi to cats if we had a cat. But 2 of my daughters are very allergic to cat saliva .... so we were thinking maybe some other small animal or a dog maybe? Still I think I am going to wait. Unlike Vero who's waiting for a pregnancy I am going through the Change and need a surgery or two so I can get active again. Twelve weeks for recovery. So I am thinking no new pets until next fall. Except for the aquariums I am setting up today and the tripods (like sea monkeys) we are starting tomorrow. Good luck. If you do get a kitten, take pictures. They are so cute too! |
| Sorry I didn't realize this was an old post I am so happy Abby was not harmed by the decon.We have seen many dogs die a horrable death from eating rat bat.We have also witnessed a Jack Russle who was on deaths door still jumping around and happy he of course lived and I think it was becouse of that determined jack Russle spirit. |
| I also have a lab who ate about half a small box of the poison that had been out for about 9 months. I administered the hydrogen peroxide to invoke vomiting, and he vomited up about a tablespoon of the pellets.
However, when he was let out later in the day he reingested what he had earlier vomited. So I again administered the peroxide. He is about 95 pounds at last weigh in last month. Any help is greatly appreciated! Art in Tulsa |
| I would take him to the vet immediately. |
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