Nuetered/spayed dogs in show
This is the AKC mission statement. Quote: The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership.
My question is, how can a neutered/spayed dog compromise the integrity of the breed? And for those of us who are not breeders, are we not responsible owners for doing such? From what I have seen on different programs, the show world is very political and subject to the judge’s personal preferences in the breed. I have no first hand knowledge of shows, I am curious and interested to hear from those who do. Is the AKC living up to its mission? |
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| The original purpose of a dog show (in fact, most animal confirmation shows, really) was to determine and promote quality breeding stock for each breed of animal. If you look at it from primarily this perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to show an altered animal, as they can never be bred.
However, I personally would love to see "alter" classes open up in AKC shows. Not only would it encourage responsible pet ownership practices, but it would give those of us (like me!) who are not up to breeding yet a chance to participate and enjoy the confirmation world! From everything I have heard and experienced (my family showed shelties in the 70s and early 80s) confirmation can be very, very political. My mom, who was the main show ring representative for her kennel often ran into issues dogs were picked based on the popularity of their handler, or the recognition of the kennel. Some judges will end up favoring one line or "type" more than the other. Many of my friends who are involved in confirmation still run into these issues, even on the local level. I beleive some of this is just the nature of competition with animals, it happens in many different types of animal sports, where the winner cannot be determined by the clock, or finish line. If you bring in an individual's opinion into the mix, you're gonna end up with different views of what "perfection" is going to look like. The political side of it though... I wish that could be remedied. An owner handler ought to have a truly equal chance at winning with their dog, as that well paid, instantly recognizable, handler does. Anywhoo... Maybe it's time to let someone else have the soapbox 
Karen  |
| Exactly Irskmj! Conformation shows are for breeding stock so no "stuff" no breeding.
I think that there is opportunity for the AKC to allow fixed dogs into competition by allowing them to compete under their sire and dam. Kind of like who has the best kids competition. They do have a competition like this now where the litter is registered to compete before they are born and then when they are of a certain age they compete. (I can't for the life of me remember what this is called so someone help!) I do think they can't be altered for this competition and the dam has to be registered in the show that they are competing but this style would give people more opportunity to get their dogs out there. |
| That's called Futurity Litter |
| Here in Canada there are shows for alters, and also I think alters can be shown in Exhibition matches, and Sanction matches. |
| I think that part of the reason for having intact dogs only is also that the dogs are not supposed to be physically altered in any way, except docked ears, tails etc. according to the standards. Also, spaying/neutering can cause some subtle physical changes in some dogs, like weight, coat, or temperament, so it then you are not comparing apples to apples. Funny that the fur is not supposed to be colored or changed in any way, but by the clouds of powder and spray in the air ast the grooming stations the judges certainly give a bit of leeway in that regard : 0 |
Iriskmj wrote: However, I personally would love to see "alter" classes open up in AKC shows. Not only would it encourage responsible pet ownership practices, but it would give those of us (like me!) who are not up to breeding yet a chance to participate and enjoy the confirmation world! Karen Bravo  |
| If the AKC allowed altered dogs in it's shows, where in the world would they get more money from all of the little puppy mills overbreeding their dogs?
The AKC most certainly does not practice what it preaches. Do I think it would be neat to show my spayed and neutered kids? Yes! There are 4H shows and stuff around me, but they are more for kids. Do I care about ever being in any AKC affiliated event? No! I am sorry and I am not being negative to you, but I most certainly have isues with the AKC! Puppy hugs, Eric A. Yager wrote: The subject of allowing neutered/spayed dogs to show came up in another post. This is the AKC mission statement. Quote: The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership. My question is, how can a neutered/spayed dog compromise the integrity of the breed? And for those of us who are not breeders, are we not responsible owners for doing such? From what I have seen on different programs, the show world is very political and subject to the judge’s personal preferences in the breed. I have no first hand knowledge of shows, I am curious and interested to hear from those who do. Is the AKC living up to its mission? |
| I'm with Eric on this one - I don't know how any organization with a mission to "uphold the integrity of its Registry" could align itself with volume breeders.
We recently had a non-AKC dog show here that had an "altered" category, I think they called it a companion category. They also had a rescue category.  I do understand the need for breeder-oriented shows, but it would be good to see more non-breeder shows so that everyone could have a chance to compete if they want. I wouldn't want to - too much work  But I enjoy watching the dogs in the shows. |
| JMPO. but I think the registration process is a money game. The dogs shows are fun for all until you get to the "big time" shows where it seems to turn into politics. To start out with I think when a dog is being judged it shouldn't be allowed to be "baited." The dog should justify itself without working for treats to show itself worthy of a championship.
Yes, they prance these beautiful critters around the ring promoting the "I'v gotta have one of those" thoughts of many, all the while the price goes up on the breed. The big breeders don't want to sell to the normal joe on the street, so where do the people turn to get the breed of their choice? Of course, back yard breeders, mills and pet stores. Perhaps if they were a little more lienient in selling their pups, spayed or neutered, it would help on the over population. And, people would recieve the knowledge necessary for that breed. To allow fixed dogs in shows would probably reinstate the "its a cool thing to own a mutt" idea again, with people going to rescues and shelters for an animal instead of looking for the "BEST IN BREED", spur of the moment purchase that ends up in the shelters. Call us back yard breeders unresponsible if you want, but I think some of us sell some of our dogs with limited registries, puppy packs full of information, etc.... guarentees, and my contract always included a statement that none of my pups would ever be placed in a shelter, that they would contact me for assistance in placing the animal, People use to be happy with the mixed breed, the one they'd take in off the street because it needed a home. Now, they'd rather have the one that makes them think they have the "best" available, if they only knew that registration paper doesn't mean anything except money for the registries and the winning breeds at the shows only mean a higher price for those breeds. All others caught in the middle are "exaclty" the same as the others, just without the prestige. ADOPT ADOPT ADOPT |
| I most certainly agree with most of what you are saying.
I never said all backyard breeders are not responsible. I do know of one for sure who is. It is the AKC's lack of concern about "breeders" violating their own breeder guidelines that bothers me and proves it is all about the money to them. The original question in this thread was "Is the AKC living up to its mission?" My answer would be NO. I race cars and am a member of different sanctioning bodies, all of which have rules and enforce them. This makes racing as safe as it can be. It is still dangerous, but following their rules makes it a little safer. If you don't follow their rules, guess what? You don't race. The AKC rules are no different. They are in place to make buying a puppy a little safer, there are still risks. They just don't care about violations of their guidelines. I have learned a lot through my experience. Maybe I should have adopted. I do know that my two kids will never have to be adopted though. We will deal with their hip problems when we need to, but they will never be anyone elses burden. I think the only thing we can all try to do is to get the word out and try to better educate people about getting a pet of any kind. The only good thing I can see the AKC does is provide a breeder referal. If I had used that, maybe I would not have dogs with hip problems. If I had used it, maybe I never would have got to meet the sweet kids I have now. So, I feel that I didn't really make a mistake at all. The only way to help stop this from happening is responsible breeding. I know most everyone on this site knows that. There really should be some type of licensing needed to even own a pet. It really breaks my heart to see dogs on rescue websites that people left behind or gave up on because they were not healthy, they had to move or the dog just would not behave. It is these types of people who make the puppy mills survive. They will just go get another dog and probably abandon it when they need to. I am feeling that hot sensation inching up my back now, so I will get off of my soapbox. This site is a great way to learn about responsible dog ownership. We just need to find a better way to educate people. Have a nice day, Eric |
SheepdogMarine wrote: .......I never said all backyard breeders are not responsible......
Eric, Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you meant that. I was just stating my opinion in general and once again, as with so many other statements, if someone has made a remark about a subject, they can easily take it personal. Please be assured, your comment had nothing to do with my statement. JMPO Sorry. Pam |
| Pam,
No offense taken. The whole AKC thing just gets me cranked up since I am one of the many who got suckered in thinking AKC registered meant something. Sorry if I came off wrong to you. Have a nice day, Eric |
| Thank you all for you insight.
Even though we did not get Mojo to show, I began wishing we did. I was feeling sorry for myself because we can’t. He’s been altered. I’ve been pondering my feelings and motives. I had nothing to do with producing my beautiful baby and he will not be breeding. I think the shows should be left to those who do. I am happy he is mine and will proudly “show” him in the neighborhood. |
| I did get one of mine with the intention of showing (obedience). He was a beautiful dog, with all the right stuff. My problem was not being able to find anyone able to and for the most part willing to train us. After all, that's more competition for them.
When I was a kid hardly no one had an AKC registered dog. And, if they did, "they" thought they were hot stuff. Pranced around with their heads higher than their dogs did. Us common folk had the strays roaming the street that we'd taken in and had to just guess at what breeds were in it. AKC could do more for the dog population problem and everything else if they were to make the shows for good ole towns folk that just wanna have a good day at the park with their family and dogs. Wear your old blue jeans, prance the dog around doing whatever little tricks that are required, with no baiting, and let the best dog win. What the higher ups in those days wouldn't have, meaning the mutts and unregistered, they now breed and have given cute little names like cookapoo, etc.... and charge a small fortune for. How's that for the betterment of the dog world? I think that breed used to be called Heinz and they use to give em' away free in papers everywhere!!! Breeders? Ok, I was a breeder of OES for many years. Never got to show, but had show quality pups throughout the years. Just weren't born into the "royal" family so they were tossed aside as backyard pet quality dogs. Although the daddy of my sire was a prominent OES breeders pup. I know for a fact that some show breeders, line breed, inbreed, sell puppies listed as with one dam, yet she's not the true mother. And, on and on. When I heard of these things I lost all interest in showing. If the higher ups, the registries, etc. would do their part it may make somewhat of a difference in people wanting to spay/neuter etc........JMPO's |
I'm a little late to the party here  but I'll put in my 2 cents anyway
What makes people think just because the dogs are "show" quality or 'show winners' that means they are good dogs personality wise. Before we got Merlin...we went to several breeders...Some very well known breeders in the show world. Personally I didnt like way some of the dogs were kept. They werent 'family' members and since I didnt want to show or breed...temperment was most important to me...not looks. The breeder we chose doesnt show(to some she might even be considered a backyard breeder...but she had all the time in the world to talk about her dogs and how important it was to get just the right mix in her breeding stock etc, and how she studies the breed and chooses very carefully which dogs she will breed, the dogs all come with full pedigrees and all that stuff ...AND her dogs are raised with kids and now we have 2 dogs from her...Both totally different temperments but both are excellent with my kids. SO I think the AKC or CKC (depending where you live ) means nothing to me. |
| Im sure I will sound ignorant too some of you who are very educated in AKC shows and such.Me i know barely anything about shows and the whole AKC thing.What I do know is just because someone shows there dog in a ring for the AKC does NOT in any way make that dog protected from being in rescue,foster programs,humane society.I have seen many times pure bred expensive dogs finding themselves homeless.It is just as hard too find a loving home for a AKC show dog as it is for a puppy mill dog.My views on fixing ANY pet,mutt,purebred,puppymill dog,expensive show dog is that ALL should be fixed,UNLESS your truely a upstanding breeder.We have all been there w/ wanting a purebred dog,it would be silly too fix every single dog then how would we get our OES,Collies,maltese etc....What im saying is for the ones who are not upstanding breeders,or for people who dont want too breed but show,or people who just want pets like most of us here thats when the animals need to be fixed.I know of a lady down in florida who won 1st place w/ AKC shows showing her collies.her dirty little secret was she was a puppy miller.NO ONE would have guessed,her dogs were beautiful,well mannered,and won alot of awards in the ring.However,she was turned in by a neighbor,when the I believe the rescue went too her home,she had some many females in tiny cages that their poor leg bones were crooked due too not coming out of their cages ever,they aniamls lived in fith,she also had about 75 persian kittens,all w/ upper resp. illness and worms.I know I sound naive w/ fix all dogs no matter what,well unless you truely are an upstanding breeder,if w had rules like this even in the ring,puppy millers would hopefully be in the minority,where today I feel they are the majority.Too be honest besides Mickey every dog I have owned since I was 18 has been a rescue from a puppy mill.I should say my collie is beautiful maybe I show him??? LOL!!!Hes fixed,and he has a bum leg,also he is awefully spoiled I think that would be wayy too emabarassing even for me!!LOL! |
Tanyathenurse wrote: I should say my collie is beautiful maybe I show him???....Hes fixed,and he has a bum leg,also he is awefully spoiled I think that would be wayy too emabarassing even for me!!......
You may have just hit the nail on the head with that statement! Back when, when no one really knew a lot or cared about the registrations, showing, etc. the choice dogs were the free ones. Oftentimes they were the abandoned and just taken in off the street. Everyone talks about how education is the key. Why not DOG SHOWS for the rescues, the ones with the bum limbs, the blind, the deaf, the UNREGISTERED. Just maybe if something could come of that and someone could turn it into a "sort of" Westminster, people would SEE these dogs, see what they offer and start another fad. Fads start impulse buying. Only this time, the purchases would be for those already needing homes, not placing your name on a breeders list and waiting on a new puppy to be born. Just a thought, one not thought out completely, just passing it on to someone that may be able to do something big with it. lol |
| I am headed out door to SAVE another Baby from a Responsible Breeder......I wish I had the time to spill MY GUTS.......... Until people change their attitudes nothing will change.......AKC isn't going to change..MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY don't care about the puppymillers......THEY don't care about the commercial breeders.........I gave up breeding because I couldn't bring another one into this world when so many needed help and were being KILLED everyday. Must Go Save Another Baby that someone just had to have.......and some breeder didn't care that that person didn't know a damn thing about the breed....... SEND ME THE DEPOSIT AND I WILL PUT YOU ON THE WAITING LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........Kaye |
Quote: Breeders? Ok, I was a breeder of OES for many years. Never got to show, but had show quality pups throughout the years. Just weren't born into the "royal" family so they were tossed aside as backyard pet quality dogs. Although the daddy of my sire was a prominent OES breeders pup. I know for a fact that some show breeders, line breed, inbreed, sell puppies listed as with one dam, yet she's not the true mother. And, on and on. When I heard of these things I lost all interest in showing.
Many of us know this goes on!!!!!!! I know of Show Breeders that are producing un healthy Babies and nothing is being done.....I filed an complaint about an OESCA breeder and got stone walled........CIRCLE THE WAGONS!!!!!!!! If AKC doesn't care about anything except MONEY..........Club Rules are not followed and inforced........WHAT IS THE ANSWER??????????? Sheepie Hugs, Kaye |
| Realistically- becoming active with local OES community members is the only thing I can think of. Get to know your sheepie neighbors- become involved in local breed clubs and help out the rescue organizations. Talk to those around you who are active in the breed, become more knowledgeable. Many LOCAL breed clubs are MUCH more stingy when it comes to enforcing good breeding habits in their members. I know of many dog and cat local/regional clubs that have lists of members that have signed and agrred to good breeding practice agreements, and are then inspected by club officials on a regular basis to enforce those practices. While it is terribly sad that the AKC turns a blind eye to bad practices, keep in mind that our local and regional clubs can be a great source to encourage good breeding practices, and to encourage/sponsor fun competitions, confirmation and otherwise! Don't give up people- there are good folks out there working to promote the health and responsibly place those fuzzies!!!
Karen |
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