Do you think it's right?
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That being said, I recently had a rather heated debate with someone on a maltese forum about "sneaking" dogs in where they are not allowed. Now obviously as owners of 50-100 lb dogs we aren't going to sneak our dogs anywhere but this person honestly feels that it is their "right" to take their dog anywhere they go, regarless of laws or rules. Do you agree? |
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| Well... as to uncomfortable feelings that arise whenever a "heated debate" occurs... that does happen here as well, but not often, as we do tend to quickly rein in any overly frustrated comments designed not for debate but to provoke anger and hurt feelings. Nothing can destroy a "community" such as online forums faster. I'm glad to say, that simply does not happen often here, I think we have a great group of people who genuinely respect each other, differing opinions or not. Perhaps being OES owners we are more laid back... who knows.
As to your question regarding sneaking small dogs into places they are not allowed... I am a law abiding person, and in most cases one need only look at the reason for the law. Dogs in restaurants for example may not be the most hygenic thing... people who don't own pets don't appreciate a stray hair floating in their soup like we do 
As to any public establishment.... many people are afraid of dogs, and should not have to give up their right to not be exposed to them while trying to enjoy a meal out or shopping. Many are also allergic, and again, should not have to be exposed to pets if they choose not to. As I always tell my kids, there are many laws that may not make sense at the time, if ever, but we still must obey the laws or there are consequences. Laws that seriously don't make sense or do anyone any good are something one may wish to challenge, however I would encourage challenging them in a law abiding manner as well. Writing to government, making proposals, stating reasons, explanations, and alternatives. For those who feel certain laws restrict their freedom, some laws are there to also protect the freedom of others, and in most cases are there to protect the many over the few. |
| Hi Tasker's Mom
I agree with you. There is a time and place to bring our pets. I also feel that about children. No one has the right to impose a licking, barking or worse on others who do not want it. I try not to bring our dogs to places that are not made for them. I also chringe  when I have to go shopping and listen to a child screaming at the top of their lungs. If your child is misbehaving leave the store. I did and then they learn you mean buiness.
SORRRY if I have anyone mad at me. Its just how I feel. Thanks.  |
Willowsprite wrote: Perhaps being OES owners we are more laid back... who knows. ...or exhasusted. |
Quote: I also chringe when I have to go shopping and listen to a child screaming at the top of their lungs. If your child is misbehaving leave the store. I did and then they learn you mean buiness.
HEHHEHE I'm often places where kids are allowed and pets aren't and think.......my dogs are better behaved than THAT!!!!!!!!!!! |
One day as I was checking out a boy in his early teens at my check out lane, I noticed a blanket in his cart that looked like it might be hiding something (liquor?), so I walked up to the cart and began to uncover the item - a cute little puppy. We both smiled and nothing was said.  There's something sacred about a boy and his dog! |
LOL, I use to get a babysitter to go food shopping. It was faster and I need not keep saying NO you cant have that!  It was sooooo much easier. I know that many can not do that, I understand. But you should contoll your children or pets in public!!!! and yes our pets were better than the 4 children. LOL |
| You are a GOOD MAN GEORGE!!!!!
That isn't the sort of situation I am talking about, I'm talking about an ADULT intentionally, reapeatedly, with forethought taking their dog where they know it should not go because they believe they have the "right" to do so. Besides I've been known to dash into the store for a gallon of milk with Ty under my arm (apologizing profusing because it was too hot to leave him in the car  ) |
I actually see that topic a lot on the maltese board. I don't get what people think it's their right. Mr. Joah and I definitely don't think it's our right... we just hope no one sees.  We bring our maltese with us whenever we can to hotels. We know her and she's not disruptive to anyone nor does she pee (and of course good for allergy sufferers), so... we think nothing of it. We put up the privacy tag (on the door), so the maid service doesn't bother us. So far, each hotel establishment hasn't noticed, and we if I added up the hotels we stayed in, it could easily be 2 every month in the past year.
I also bring her out of her crate when she's on the plane but I always ask the person sitting next to me if they mind. Otherwise, she sleeps on my lap and doesn't move (literally not once nor does she have to pee)...even if the flight is 12 hrs. I wouldn't if she couldn't stay still or ...moved in general. We never think about doing it in stores or restaurants though. Unless of course we know the owners don't mind which is the case in many restaurants we went to in Colorado. |
Yes but, you have paid a pretty big buck for the privilege of doing that!!! I think what the airline charges you for taking the crate along is highway (or airway  ) robbery!!! |
| I fly alot, so I see people take their dogs out of the crates on planes all the time. Personally I don't care (unless it's a yappy dog), and I am not allergic to dogs. But many people are, so I can understand the rule. As always, there are considerate dog owners like Joahaeyo who ask before taking out their dogs, and the inconsiderate owners who do not ask. A few weeks ago I saw a dog owner give the flight attendant a horrendously hard time about it. Jeez! The poor woman was only trying to do her job and the dog owner was completely obnoxious. So, that's my thought - if you break the rule but no one seems to mind, good for you. But if someone reminds you of the rule you should gracefully comply.
As for hotels, there are enough chains that allow dogs now that I would think you could stay in ones that don't prohibit it. Wouldn't you rather patronize (and enrich) a dog friendly establishment than break the rules at a dog unfriendly establishment? |
| The discussion I was having originally was about restaurants. this person felt it was ok to "sneak" the dog into the restaurant in a carrier and hide it under the table. My family owns restaurants and I know that if the health dept in my county were to walk in that would be considered a critical violation (the business owner could lsoe their license) and a very large fine.
The ensuing discussion was that this person felt that their "right" to take their dog with them superceded the right of the business owner to ban the dog. |
| BOY ismy face red right now.Let me start by saying Im also someone who just does NOT break the law(or I try really hard not too,like speeding ).OK now saying that I am SOOOOOOOOOOO guilty on bringing my dog whre he shouldnt have been.BUT before everyone gets excited listen to the story.Im sure most remember when i got my Joey he was a Brussels Griffon,very tiny,and very sick.He was antibiotics for the whole first 8weeks I had him,he didnt eat,and he had a respiratory problem.It was winter,up here in Wi it gets cold!! .Me and my friend had too go to the mall to get my 17yr old a prom dress(last winter),I did NOT want to leave Joey alone any where,so I wrapped him up in a blanket,and put him under the stroller where you can store small objects.Making sure he was breatheing still,and until he got a little better I took him every where i could or every where I could sneak him in.Never went too a restaurant w/ him tho.Now thats he has passed away,Id have too say i do everything the same way,maybe Im selfish or a jerk but I loved that little guy sooooooooo much,and I was NOT going to let him die.Altho after he was 100% better he did get hit by a car and was killed,but I charished every second I had w/ him.Also,after I got Landon (Joeys brother)there was a target near by and I took him in there to get him a collar,and a few other things ,so Id have too be honest and say yes I infact have done this .However Im also the same person who fly's and brings her toy dogs along ON the airplane I ALWAYS ask ppl around me IF they mind I bring my buddy out of his crate.9times out of 10 they say SURE!!I miss my dog alot right now too. I agree there is a time and place for everything,and I realiz you let 1 person do it EVERYONE under the sun wants too do it,but also I think as ppl some of us really have harden too life,and not everything is black and white.Some times a person really does need to bring her very sick puppy/dog along w/ him/her to a store setting doesnt mean they will do that forever tho.Socity really needs to learn too listen to everyone individually and not lump everyone as one. Like hotels/motels,I usually dont bring my pets along a trip when i know Ill be staying in an hotel,just because it is so hard too find a nice place he excepts bigger dogs,so I leave em at home w/ family/friends.However some ppl feel they can bring in their HUGE dogs and let them bark ALL night,that too me is WRONG.If someone wants too sneak in their dogs then atleast keep them quiet during the sleeping hours!!shhhhhhhh  About kids,dont get me started my kids are growing up too listen to authority,when i go too stores or restuarants I can NOT beleive how kids act w/ their parents right there!!Im not parnt who ever spanked my kids,but thse kids need a huge BUTT spanking!! OK now be gentle on me ok??? |
| I personally don't think it's right to take your dog of any size or breed int a food establishment. They have special pet restaruants for those situations...if they are travelling then they need to take the food to go...or leave the pet at the pet friendly hotel.
As a person wanting to eat food, I'd hate to be the person at the next table esp if I had allergies....regardless if the breed was hypoallergenic, or quiet. I don't even want to see people walking their dogs through a mall, at West ed the two pet stores are on the end near the door so you can bring your dog into the mall...without disrupting the other businesses...what would they do if the dog peed on the floor in a clothing store...I'd be furious as a store owner. Pets have their place and if you have shoping to do leave them at home. |
| I wouldn't bring my dog in, but I have a question: If it is TRULY a question of public health and allergies, why are service dogs allowed?
Public policy should be; "Look, we're sorry that you're blind, and we're very happy for you that you have a service dog, but you'll have to leave your service dog at home if you want to eat in a restaurant." So it musn't be a public health concern. There are no rules requiring the restaurant owner to post a sign "Service Dog Currently In Store", or to specially sanitize the area after the dog leaves. So it must be either a case of the world being Politically Correct at the expense of people with allergies (don't they have a right to go into the restaurant with their disability?), or there's no health issue, and it's just a question of poorly trained dogs. If a poorly trained dog were to jump up on the buffet, or be roaming the other tables, or getting loose and running through the kitchen, I can understand the health implications. Perhaps a service dog is expected to be well trained. So if that's the case, how about a CGC being allowed into the food store? How about a champion Show Dog? How about a special "This dog is certified to enter food-selling establishments" certification? Just thinking. |
Quote: I wouldn't bring my dog in, but I have a question: If it is TRULY a question of public health and allergies, why are service dogs allowed?
My response to this is that it can still be a health matter, but the instances of service dogs (overall) coming into a restaurant/store is relatively infrequent. I can't imagine unless you live in an all-blind neighborhood that there would really ever be more than 1 service dog per restaurant at any given time. Service dogs have been trained to act in a certain, well behaved manner, which can't be said for the average joe's dog on the street. Yes, there are many well behaved dogs out there that would behave just the same as the service dog would; however, there are many more out there like my puppy who would just cause havoc. I know not to bring my dog places because of that, but lots of people would insist on bringing their dog, no matter how well or not well behaved it is. To not allow a service dog into a restaurant or other business would be discriminating against the disabled person, which is illegal. The laws have been made to allow these dogs to accompany their masters wherever the masters need to go--whether it be a restaurant or clothing store. I am not bothered at all by service dogs in restaurants. But, can you imagine, if a person brought their dog to a restaurant and the dog had fleas? Even if he isn't jumping around or barking or tipping things over, he can still be a health hazard or violation. I know I wouldn't really want to be sitting at a restaurant next to a well behaved, but extremely slobbery St. Bernard (sorry, I love them, but they are drooly!). It just wouldn't be appetizing. And, they are now creating dog-friendly malls. We had 2 malls open in our area 2 years ago and one of them is a dog-friendly mall. They have dog stations throughout the mall, where there is water and stuff for the dogs. Most people assume they can bring their tiny dog anywhere they want, but why is that any different than bringing your OES anywhere you want? I know people think they have the 'right' to do anything they want, but it's true, laws were made for a reason, some are silly or outdated, but some are there for good reason and should be obeyed. It's like the smokers who feel they have the right to smoke anywhere they want and are getting upset that places keep banning or trying to ban them from certain places to smoke. There was just an initiative they were trying to pass here in VA to ban smoking in restaurants. The restaurant owners and smoking patrons felt that the smokers have a right to smoke wherever they want--and if that bothers me, the non-smoker, then I can take my business elsewhere. So, why is their right more important than mine (especially when their right can kill me?!). I come from a state where you aren't allowed to smoke anywhere, practically, and so it amazed me when I moved to a state where smoking is basically the national pastime and people don't think twice about whether or not it might bother someone else. Sorry, ended up in a rant on a totally different subject! |
| How many times do WE casually pick a dog hair (OUR DOG HAIR) off our plate, out of our sandwich, or from the rim of the glass and not think anything about it. Yet if we are in a restaurant or somewhere else and were to be served a plate with a dog hair on it we would be grossed out .
I think what actually bothered me most in this specific argument was not the animal issuew at all but the attitude of "i can do what I want because I have a right to"!! We all break the rules now and again but at least have the humility (at least I do) to acknowledge that we broke the rules (believe me I'm humble EVERY TIME i get a speeding ticket ). |
| Right, I wasn't gonna go there but smoking is the same thing...we have a ban on every public establishment now, even bars...which I don't care if people smoke there, I'm just happy it's out of the malls and food places.
So if they make laws about no dogs allowed, just as they did for no shirt, no shoes no service, or No rollerblades...it all has it reasons. Dogs can do strange things, bite someone, pee submissively/exciteably, fleas, drool...we'd like to assume that if it is a service dog they will behave properly...and to this date I have never seen a blind person with their dog in a restaurant. As a side note, some people are really phobic about dogs, so the last thing they would want to see is a dog stare them down in anyplace...that would really send them off. Or you'd have every kid, or dog lover coming over to pet them, causing that hair to float over to the next table and in the $40 meal you are eating. And we know service dogs are not to be approached or petted while they are working. So one cannot say it's okay for little floofloo to come in but mr bull mastiff can't...they are both our babies...and should they not be treated as equals....let's just obey the rules and take our pets to where we can. I love to take Remy out with me, and people love to meet her, but we stick to pet stores and parks. |
| I've seen some pretty dirty service dogs... they can have fleas, too.
I'm sorry that there are people who are differently abled, but allowing dogs of any type into restaurants is not an appealing thought to me. I let my dog lick my face, and I enjoy it and even encourage it, but I don't someone else's dog slobber on my plate. So what about all the people with dog allergies? Their right to enter a restaurant is less than a non-smoker's right? You know, life is unfair, particularly to people who are disabled. I think we should try as a society to ease their "burden" of unfairness, but at the expense of others? In our society, rights are always balanced by and at odds with other rights. The most famous explanation of this is "Your right to swing your arm stops at the tip of my nose." People have a right to eat without a dog next to them. People have a right to have their service dog with them. At the moment, the law is favoring the right of people with service dogs. What if I opened a restaurant catering to people with allergies? Just food for thought. |
Quote: So what about all the people with dog allergies? Their right to enter a restaurant is less than a non-smoker's right?
What the owners of the restaurant can (and will) say to that is the person (who is allergic) has the ability to leave the restaurant if they don't like what is going on. There are a million restaurants in the world, so presumably this allergic person can find a nearby restaurant where there isn't a dog inside...(Same argument for non-smokers...I am not forced to eat at the restaurant that allows smoking, so it is my right to stay or leave...) It is very frustrating, though, when I live in a city that thrives on smoking (Philip Morris is one of the biggest employers in town--they, by the way, allow their employees to smoke at their desks...) to not be able to physically tolerate (I have bad asthma) going to eat at most restaurants, or bars, especially, because of the smoke. Yes, there are places that are smoke free, but many of the interesting and 'good' restaurants are smoky places (in fact, in restaurant reviews, the ;smoky atmosphere' is seen as a good thing). |
| It's pretty acceptable in Europe. About 5 years ago when we toured all of eastern Europe and I don't think that there was a single country that I remember visiting where I didn't see an animal in a restaurant/bar. All were well behaved and treated very similar to a service dog is here-- no one really pays much attention, they're just another patron. The tourists were the ones that were really interested. The only time I remember questioning the prescence of an animal was at a falafel place in Amsterdam where there were a couple of cats walking around on top of the fryer. It seemed kind of gross but you have to figure boiling oil would kill anything that might fall into the fryer. The falafel was quite good if I remember it correctly... |
ButtersStotch wrote: The only time I remember questioning the prescence of an animal was at a falafel place in Amsterdam where there were a couple of cats walking around on top of the fryer. It seemed kind of gross but you have to figure boiling oil would kill anything that might fall into the fryer. The falafel was quite good if I remember it correctly...
Okay that would be gross, I have to put up with my pets, and I love my cats, but I'd be so embarassed if a vistor came to my house and ate food finding hair in it....sure it's my cats, but still gross none the less. People always have the right to chose where they eat, where they don't...we need establishments to either make one restaurant for the smoker and one for the non-smoker...or since we have lived the last 100yrs with smoking establishments now we can try the next 100 as a non-smoking establishment. I want to enjoy a meal without any worries of hair, sneezing/wheezing dog allergy attack and someone has to call 911, barking because someone rings a bell from the back, fleas jumping in my hair to catch a ride home only to infest my house...sure we can still have all of these happen, but I still prefer to enjoy my evening out without the extra worry. One would hope that people would use common sense and not bring dirty animals into places, or ones that could be bothersome to others...even if they are service dogs. There are fancy restaurants that you wouldn't dare bring children into, and it's fine by me, because on occasion I want a nice romantic meal without kids...so we choose that place. If we want a family place then we have another 50 choices to suit that need. If you want to have your dog accompany with you everywhere that's your choice...but if it isn't allowed into a store/restaurant/retail...don't bring it in. It's the wrong attitude to think if you can get away with it then do it...we'd all be thieves then if we could "get away" with it...why do we follow any rules if that was the case. One who can follow the rules for minor things, or has a conscience telling them that is wrong...signs clearly saying no pets....thinking they can sneak in their dog, no one will notice...would you trust them in other things of more importance? Or will they sneakly try things because they can "get away" with it.... a dog in the store today, parking in a handicap zone, cheating on your spouse...it is a moral issue. I do like those who ask permission if they can bring the dog in, or are upfront and show the dog. I suppose this could be an issue of following the rules, or respect for others...but we can't make a rule to say dogs of a certain size are allowed and the others are not...that would be racism against dogs would it not. Social status should not be allowed either...I don't care if Paris Hilton brings her chihuahua...she should have the same rules as anyone else. If she's allowed to have her dog, then I can bring mine in...should size matter, or breed. When I had the boxer, people would cross the street to avoid passing us...he would lick them to death he was so gentle, but nonetheless they have a percieved notion he is a mean dog. So the rules are straight across with exception to service dogs...and I still haven't seen one in a restauraunt. I am thankful to that, and I think they must be aware to other people as well, and have a human companion join them for a meal, giving the dog a few hours off duty to relax at home. I'd love to see a bistro open up that caters to pets here, I love to go for coffee and sit and relax, and Remy can have a bowl of water and a doggy biscotti, but we don't have those places yet. |
| OK once again the "law breaker" is gonna post .Ron,being a nurse and being around MANY ppl w/ LOTS of disabilities I ahve seen service dogs who are NOT well behaved.Yes theres filthy service dogs out there w/ fleas/ticks,and other yukkies on them.Im w/ Ron if service dogs allowed why not others?For the person who said usually theres not alot of disabled ppl w/ service dogs in a restuarant,well thats untrue.Have you ever been to a PErkins/Denny's on a day that a certain group home is ahving an outing,that means they can bring in their service dog at one time there can be up too 10service dogs in a joint like that.growing up in Florida and going in nursing school down there I noticed theres certain towns where ppl w/ service dogs/disabilities seem to all live.For one reason or another like being close to hospitals,major highways and such.Theres service dogs EVERY where there Convent stores,dr.'s offices,churches,DMV,etc....and not everyone is physically able to care for their service dog like they should.My point is,like Rons IF the stores or restuarnt do welcome in service dogs then doesnt that leave the door wide open for others?For instance right now we are talking about physical disabilities,what about mental health issues?Did you know there are ppl out in the world who HAVE too have their pet w/ them 24/7 and actually have a certifid letter from there Dr.I took care of this 50ish lady who had lost her daughter,and then 6months later lost her hubby,the only thing she had was her toy poodle,she would have panic attacks w/o her beloved poodle.She physically could not function w/o him.Her psy. came to the conclusion she NEEDED her poodle w/ her and that meant in stores,malls,eating places and such.Looking at her NO she had no physical disability,but inside she was all broken.This is not just a one time deal TONS of ppl,truely NEED their beloved pet w/ them.For me taking Joey into the mall yeah it was breaking rules,but know what?Id do it all over again.Yes i could have waited to go shopping for a prom dress,however I never left him alone w/ anyone,he was critically sick,and nothing Heaven or Hell was going to keep him out of my sight til he was better.Once he was all better then I left him at home,I would of fell too pieces IF he'd died alone,and NO way was that going to happen.Like I said it really is too bad that 90% of the population is so blind they only see black and white when it comes too issues they dont agree on.For me i really think its great IF ppl where able to bring their pets any where w/ them even eating joints,but I know that would never happen,IF that was too happen the world would be too close too perfct and then WHAT!!! I do however think its great that our opinions are just that,opinions.Pets our a blessing,and not everyone loves their pets has passionate as some,remember NOT all disabilities are seen on 1st impression.Pets are a gift,and I also agree if your pet isnt behaved then NO be smart and keep them at home,come on common sence right? |
Tanyathenurse wrote: Pets are a gift,and I also agree if your pet isnt behaved then NO be smart and keep them at home,come on common sence right?
I think expecting people to have common sense is a HUGE mistake. You know what I'd like to see? One set of common rules of behavior that apply to humans and animals. If either species can conform, they're welcome to frequent the establishment. It seems like everytime I go out somewhere these days, I encounter at least one parent with what I think is the worst behaved kid I've ever seen, then I see one worse! Who cares about hair-- if your dog is clean and well behaved, you're already one up on a lot of kids around these days. I work in a library at a public state university in Detroit. Let me tell you, we get the creme de la creme of society in our buildings. Because we're a public university, the libraries are a haven for homeless people because we have to let them in and can't ask them to leave just because of hygienic issues-- and there are issues. The bums use the sinks in the restrooms to take showers-- it is not a rare occurence to walk in on someone nude sitting in the sink if you are in a public area (which is basically anywhere but the restroom in my office!). They urinate on the floors and spread feces on the floor and walls. There's no law or rule that keeps them out. Who's the animal in this case? I'll take a dog any day. |
| Unless I've overlooked it, aside from all the reasons listed as to why one should not take their pets to restaurants, etc...... The business owner would probably be liable for a lawsuit if someone was bitten by the dog. Seems only fair to me that they not lose their right to operate a business just because one person decided to sneak in a pet. jmpo |
| Butter in a way I totally agree w/ you.Seems when i go too stores or just in public I have the brattiest kid follow me,it is NOT fun!!However as a dem. society everyone who is free to be in our free world shouldnt have to "prove" themselves worthy,it "should" be a given just for the mee fact they are free and not inprisoned in some way.So has humanes i hope/pray the majority would use common sence and NOT bring a naughty animal into stores such as pet Smart,and other pet friendly places.Even in those stores there are rules EVERY do MUST be leashed,do you know even there I ahve seen puppies NOT on leashes??? For me Id like too think most ppl would realize IF lets say Mickey was sick like my JoJo was in no way would I have "tried" to sneak him in any where,the fact is my vet say "Do not let Joey leave your site,he is critically sick,and IF he stops breatheing you need too be there to do CPR,and he also needs his nose sucktioned out every 30mins."So im NOT a stupid person or a thoughtless person,and I do know how too use common sence.IF this had been one of my bigger pets,he would have been put into the hospital(for dogs)but since joey was so small and so sick I WAS able too take him every where,and I thank God I did.My point of going into this again about Joey is just merely not everything is black and white,not everyone sneaks their pet in just because "they have the right too".When i did take Joey into stores he was hiden,NO one even knew he was there.Does that mak it right?NO,but I did what i thought was right for me and my JoJO,I didnt hurt anyone,Joey didnt bite anyone,no one sneezed due too allergies,Joey didnt potty any where.I feel I was very discreet,and I wanted my baby NOT too die w/o me there is that being selfish?Now IF he had been a heathly puppy one that played,barked,chased etc....then I would NEVER bring him or any other pup into a nonpet store,I never have before Joey,and I havent since him.Like i said tho IF I ever cross that bridge again wher god please forbid I have another very sickly small pup I would however do the same thing,if it was life or death like in Joeys case.Im sorry if Im offending anyone by that statement,but its true I honestly would do it over again. Now for the person who compared bringing a dog into public and ppl who smoke,for me I really dont see how you can compare a pet to someones 2nd hand smoke???2nd hand smoke IS KNOWN too cause life altering diseases,where i have NEVER heard of someone bringing in a pet into public and someone around this dog drops dead???Now remember as a society everyone has the beifit of doubt.Right?Im not taking about the pure stupid ppl who have these killer strong dogs who train to be killers,reality is those ppl are NOT the majority.So has anyone ever gotten so sick it was life or death from someone bringing a family loving pet into lets say Target?I never have heard of it....PEACE |
Quote: Now for the person who compared bringing a dog into public and ppl who smoke,for me I really dont see how you can compare a pet to someones 2nd hand smoke???2nd hand smoke IS KNOWN too cause life altering diseases,where i have NEVER heard of someone bringing in a pet into public and someone around this dog drops dead???Now remember as a society everyone has the beifit of doubt.Right?Im not taking about the pure stupid ppl who have these killer strong dogs who train to be killers,reality is those ppl are NOT the majority.So has anyone ever gotten so sick it was life or death from someone bringing a family loving pet into lets say Target?I never have heard of it..
I'm not comparing the 2nd hand smoke and the dog-sneaking health-wise. The original (so long ago...) thought for this thread was Ginny talking about people questioning their RIGHT to do something. The point I was trying to make was the smokers believe it is their RIGHT to smoke in public, just as the pet-sneakers think it is THEIR RIGHT to bring their pets anywhere they choose. They are two completely different issues, but are both based on people's rights and freedoms. Tanya, I agree with you with there is nothing black and white in the world, and where laws are created for seemingly black and white issues and the grey issues get ignored, but there is a distinct lack of common sense in this country (obviously not with everyone...), so it would be nice if we could just say, of course Mrs. X shouldn't bring muffy in with her to dine because Muffy likes to bite everyone, but Mrs. X loves Muffy and wouldn't dream of leaving her behind and maybe her biting is not seen as a menace by Mrs. X so she brings in Muffy and Muffy bites the diner sitting next to her... Most of the time I think it is all benign and just a matter of courtesy if people bring their dogs to public places where they shouldn't and many of these situations really won't occur, or occur on a regular basis. It's just a matter of principle, but that is subjective as well, as seen by these posts, that people use their personal experience to shape their lives, so what seems to be 'right' in one person's mind might not be 'right' to another because of other life circumstances... |
| I was written a ticket (a warning, thankfully) for having my dog on the property of the state's largest reservoir.
I wasn't near any people. Certainly it can't be a sanitation issue as millions of wildlife live around the reservoir and besides, he saw that I returned from my walk with a full baggie. I just don't undertand the reasoning behind the law. Technically it was not legal for me to have the dog on the property, and I knew it when I saw the tiny sign at the entrance that said "no dogs allowed". Was what I was doing morally wrong? If I don't see the reasoning behind the law, does that mean it must be a bad law? |
Quote: Was what I was doing morally wrong? If I don't see the reasoning behind the law, does that mean it must be a bad law?
Yes, Ron. Completely and utterly morally wrong.
Just because you can't see the reasoning behind the law doesn't mean it's a bad law. What if it was initially enacted because there were a lot of bears in the area and they had been killing all the dogs...Or, even though you had your baggie, maybe there had been a large number of people who hadn't been bringing their baggies and had been 'messing' up the place...Or, maybe that year there had been a surge of rabid squirrels, which dogs like to chase and risked infecting them or people... It's like when I was in high school...there was a longstanding yearly party that the seniors had that was school sanctioned...well, leave it to my class of miscreants to abuse things and a few people got drunk and destructive, etc. and the party was forever cancelled. People were so mad, saying it wasn't fair that this was the consequence from the actions of a few irresponsible people...Well, that's what a lot of laws are for... |
| Tanya...no one is coming down on your love and JoJo and his need for constant supervision. Must have been a very scary time for you. Again sorry for your loss.
That is not the point of the original question...but can you imagine what would happen if everyone felt they had the right to sneak their little dogs into places, it would start to cause problems. As mentioned before food establishments could lose their licences etc. What if two people came to a restauraunt for a quick bite, both strangers, both sneaking in a little dog...those little dogs get a sniff of each others presence...one being a territorially dog, the other a unneutered male...could this be a problem, could they not start barking at each other, unless they are caged, could they not get loose and run through the place... Or if dogs were allowed how could people be able to say that dog X is allowed but the dog Z isn't. Do we have the right to let all dogs under 10 lbs into an establishment but 50 lbs is not okay...wouldn't that ruffle a few feathers. Maybe we would need bouncers at the front door to say which dog is friendly enough and clean enough,or pretty enough and all others are sent away. Can't you just imagine the uproar that would cause, having someone say your precious baby isn't perfect enough to enter Dennys. LOL... I have seen nonshedding dogs with the absolute worse case of fleas imaginable..if that person would sneak that dog into a place...everyone in the near vacinity could be infested with fleas. It was a 5 lb dog. I don't have dog allergies, but put yourself in the shoes of someone who does, they decided to go to a restaurant,perhaps a special occasion and unknown to them at the table next to them is a dog hidden under the table or on the seat next to them. They feel fine for awhile, then start to itch, start to cough, throat starts to close up, it's not the food, next thing you know they are passed out...because they didn't know there was a dog sitting next to them. If a service dog was in there, they would know about it, and sit far away or chose another place to eat. I don't know how people react to allergies from pets...but I can only assume it will be at the very least uncomfortable. I do know someone that is very sensitive and cannot even enter into a home with any pets, and you must make sure your clothes are free of dander /hair ??? when you enter his home...he also has allergies to many other things. I think with all the posts it's just common sense that public places are not for pets, black, white or grey areas we cannot say we have the right to sneak pets in just because we can...we have pet stores, parks, pet friendly restaurants in some cities, pet spas...they are becoming more pampered as time goes on. Perhaps one day they will be allowed to enter as freely as we can. Honestly my dog is better behaved in a store than my kids are as well, LOL...and if I get the opportunity I leave the kids and Remy at home with their dad and do shopping alone. |
| From the responces I can see Im being missed read.Im in total agreement that NO people do NOT have the right to "sneak in fifi because they feel they have the right".However I boldly admitted that i actually did sneak in my beloved JoJo to a mall ONCE when he was VERY sick,I knew he was NOT contagious,I knew he was way too weak to bark,try and get out from under the stroller,or potty inside. Do I think I had the right too do this?Truthfully?NO I dont,what made me so special to be able to bring JoJo in a mall when 1,000's of ppl would love too bring in their pets also.Would I bring my pets to an eating establishment?NO WAY!!!I didnt bring JoJO,infact I never went out for entertainment the 8weeks he was sick,I stayed home w/ him,I HAD to get my daughter a prom dress,I waited til the day of the prom hoping JoJo was going to be strong enough to be left in the car,BUT he was NOT,so I took the chance and brought himi inside so i could make sure he wasnt going to stop breatheing. If I would of been gotten a ticket I would have paid w/ no arguement.My statement of not seeing everything in black and white,was meant by some ppl like in my postion need to have their pet near,I HAD to have him in sight or would I wanna pay the rest of my life feeling guilty IF JoJO would have died in my car?I loved him deeply and would have paid many tickets to keep him in sight.I think some of you on this board IF possible would do the exact same thing IF for 1.you had very sick puppy,and for 2.was able to hide him/her w/ knowledge your puppers would NOT make any noise,or bring attention to you. Like I said I never said "I have the right too bring my pets any where in public".What i said was in my case it was a matter of love AND being very scraed of loosening my beloved puppy.No one has the right to bring their pets at JcPenny,Starbucks,or any other public place,HOWEVER w/ having gone through this myself knowing how it felt to hear my vet say "more than likely Joey isnt going to get any better." I did it,Im not proud of it,Im not saying WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO I got away w/ sneaking MY pet into the mall.All im saying is that IF I ever did she someone trying to hide a pet,I wouldnt be saying in my head "Oh look at that person I bet they think they are special they can bring in their pets."Id be saying "oh I hope their pet isnt so sickly like JoJo was."Compassion thats what it is called. I totally understand TONS of ppl take advantage of anything and everything they can,and sure IF someone did see JoJo maybe they tried sneaking in their pet,but thats NOT my issue,I cant controll others actions all i know what too do is what is best for me and my family.Like I said God forbid,but IF ever I had another puppy so sick,one I had to suction out his nose,I do the same thing again.id stay home w/ him,nurse him back too health,BUT IF for some reason I truely had to go to a store Id be as discreet as I could be,like I was w/ JoJo,get what i needed and get out.I hated taking JoJo into that mall,for 1.malls are all germs he needed to be home resting which he did for 8weeks,and for 2.Im not a law breaker,or think i can do what i want when i want. I hope I have cleared up what i did and why,and that NO I dont think in general ppl "HAVE the right" too bring their pets into public,but sometimes ppl HAVE too do things to make sure their family(pets included)are going to be ok,and thats what I did. |
| Tanya, I don't think the people posting on this site were accusing you of believing that you felt you had the right to take your dog anywhere. I understand that it was a unusual circumstance and that you did it out of necessity.
I know I was trying to generalize my posts and not use anything specific as an example. I'm sorry if you felt I was harassing you or coming down on you for bringing Joey with you because I wasn't. I wasn't even contemplating him when composing my posts. I'd possibly do the same thing you did in that situation--I've never had a sick pet or any children, so who knows how I'd react to a situation in the future. Your dedication to Joey was admirable--very clear you loved him and would do anything for him. |
| I'm one that feels there are way too many laws. I think a lot were created due to the lack common courteousy, common sense, etc.....
I'll use smoking. Yes, I have rights. Smokers and non smokers have lived together for many years. The lack of common sense on the part of most business establishments was that they put the smoking section at the entrance where everyone had to pass through. DUH! Better thought and planning would have made a bundle of laws unnecessary, as well as disagreements between smokers and nonsmokers, if they'd have put the smoking sections in the rear of the building.
Pets and kids, well, we all know that when we go out without ours its nice to have a break from that species in general.
Most of the time, if we feel we have to "sneak," there is probably something wrong with what we're doing, regardless what it is. That's when common courteousy should step in and take the place of common sense. All the excess laws that have been created are part of the problem. You can't please everyone no matter how many laws you make. You give to one and take from another, its never ending. If I come to your house and you don't smoke and you ask me to go outside, then I go outside. But, if you come to my house, don't expect me to go outside. Its that easy. Using common courteousy and common sense rules out the need for excess laws and would put more smiles on people's faces. We can all get along regardless of our differances if we just think of the other person first, rather than ourselves. No dogs in the state park. Along with all of their other reasons, another one would be that if they don't allow any to come into the park, they don't have to worry about how many people will be leaving the park without the dog. Therefore making it a problem of wild dogs, breeding and the states problem of having to deal with it all. JMPO's |
| First I in no way feel I was being attacked however yes I think I was misread.Unfortunately I have had a VERY sick pet and I have a very unique child,so i have been on both ends of the stick. I also agree,aboutt he smoking,why have no smoking in public places,but make it ok too smoke right in front of the building....malls,clinics,and HOSPITALS?????Couple of yrs ago in Mn Hopsitals made smoking in front of the building a big NONO,I remember many times taking Sam to the peds. cardio,and having Sam have too walk right through a huge cloud of smoke.REAL nice for a child w/ heart defects. Laws are very funny,and the way some ppl react is funnier. |
| I hate that too, people smoking infront of hospital doors...silly.
Tanya the way you describe your situation with JoJo, I would have done the same thing, esp knowing he couldn't move, not bark, not pee, not be noticed...he is a special case an I considered him exempt from the discussion of taking pets out. It's others with the perfectly normal, healthy, rambunctious...anything can happen type dogs. |
Daisie wrote: I hate that too, people smoking infront of hospital doors...silly.
I understand that point of view completely. But, the one thing no one thought of when they done away with waiting rooms for smokers is that people like myself are not going to venture far from the door and out of the lighted areas of safety. I'm sorry if that offends anyone passing by me, but I've met nonsmokers over half way by leaving the building and standing off to the side of the door, but I will not walk 50 feet out into the dark. I'm talking about spending days and weeks at the hospital, not just to visit someone. Tanya, years ago, my then, young brother had a couple fish in a bowl. One day mom noticed the female giving birth. The fish started eating some of them as she was having them. Don't know nothing about fish, so............... Mom had to run errands so she took that fish with her, with another bowl and a little fish net so she could transfer the newly born fish before they were eatten.
People now days are distracted while driving with cell phones, etc. , not my mom, she's dipping fish from one bowl to another. My mom, the hero. Gone, but not forgotten. |
| LOL@mouthy's very big lover of fish!! Thanks Daisie I did and still love/d JoJO,its funny all the crap i went through to keep him alive for 2straight months,and some dumb BLEEP!!!had too speed and kill him..GO FIGURE!! Anyways,when i started nurseing school in '86 I was a Jr in High school yet,I can remember ALL the nurses and Docs ALL smoking inside in the break rooms.Once I was done w/ school and doing clinicals,and even as early as my 1st nurseing job,I EVEN smoked inside the building I worked.One of my 1st jobs I worked in this little nurseing home down in miami,(a very poorly runned one)and the little old Haitians,Cubans,Whites,Blacks,dietary aides,nurseing assi.,nurses and even Docs visiting we ALL met in this tiny break room we had way in the back of the building,and there was up too 15ppl all smoking in this tiny room.It was actually cool,the residents got too hang out w/ the workers,the nurses got to get to know the other ppl like dietary aides which this building only had 2!!LMAO!!I remember this very old black gentleman ILL NEVER forget him his name was Oscar he had Alzimers *sp?Anyways he was very vocal about anything,he used to always tell me "Girl I know your daddy must be black w/ as dark as you are."LOL!!Everyone that worked there hated poor Oscar but for some reason him and I had this bond,maybe because I gave him smokes??Maybe because I took the time too get too know him,his mother and grandmother where slaves in Ga.,and thats what brought him too Miami to escape, ahve so many amazing stories.Anyways they funny thing is Oscar always told me "I know your daddys black!!"but Id say too him I have VERY blue eyes ,hed say "that dont madder your skin is as black as mine!!"that was true back in the good days I lived at the beach surfing,skiing,just being a bummed.So one day i told Oscar after hed make his comment,I looked into his glossy sweet brown eyes and I said "Well Oscar do you think maybe you could be my daddy?"he looked at me,then this small but very sweet smile came on his face and he said"Now you get it."I grabbed him and gave him a huge hug and he hugged back then he pulled away and said "Now can I have a smoke????"LMAO!! Those were the good ole days,many nurseing assi. would be very controlling over the residents cigs.,and that really irratated me,these ppl have smoked for 50+yrs,who are we too hold them from them?I mean duh IF they are on O2 then yes monitor them,but otherwise at the age of 70,80,whats it going to hurt now????God bless my little Oscar,I met him 15yrs ago and too this day I think of him,and can see him causing trouble.What a cutie!! |
| Tanya that was a hilarious story, I just love people who despite their circumstances can find humor, and make people laugh....
Funny that they do away with smoking rooms...I don't see why they had to that...can't they have two break rooms. I don't smoke, so when I have to walk through a cloud of smoke it's a little harsh. But honestly it is very very rare, I think smokers are very considerate of others...my brother in law smokes...so we know what it's like for him. He wants to quit but is too addicted to it...wicked withdrawals. |
| Maybe because I grew up in California where they don't allow you to smoke in restaurants or bars that I'm overly sensitive to smoking. Maybe because it is more rare (not that it is rare--there are still a lot of people there who smoke, but just not at the levels of other places) that I just assumed the rest of the country was like-minded with CA in trying to eliminate second hand smoke in most public places. Like I've said before, it just amazes me living out here, just driving down the road and seeing probably 8 or 9 out of 10 cars drive by with people smoking in them. Since I have asthma, plus grew up without smoke in restaurants I might be more sensitive than most with the smoke. People are free to smoke if they want, that's fine with me...I just try to avoid it at all costs! My husband is in med school and I used to work a few blocks away from him so we'd meet for lunch at the hospital and it was like walking through a smoke machine to get into the place! |
| I hate getting off the subject,however as far as I know the reason behind "NO smoking" in break rooms is that smoke travels,and sticks to everything,I know in places like hospitals,nurseing homes the new cleaners,sprays,and disinfectants cant see a trace of smoke or BOOM!!!It blows up.The lodgic is silly too me,if cleaners and such are so flameable why have them around fraile ppl?Some of the stuff they pipe through the vents in a houseing situation gags me too death!!Talk about taking your beath away .I really enjoyed haveing a place for staff and residents to get together to relax smoke and kick back.ALOT of elderly still smoke after 40yrs of doing it,and for most they dont have many pleasures left,so is it smart too send out elderly,fraile,ppl in the freezing cold for a few puffs on a cig?I have seen these poor old ppl fall on their tiny butts on the ice,land up in the ER due to new laws of no smoking in any buildings.The last place I worked in Mn,I worked at a Assited living,I worked 1pm-10pm and after all the office ppl left the residents I had that night knew i wouldnt say anything IF they smoked in their apartments.Of course I better say these residents were pretty independant,and wasnt on O2,so i wasnt worried of them burning themselves or the place down.... |
| You know, I don't disagree that people may have some ill effect from second hand smoke, BUT, I really don't think it's as bad as they make it out to be. How many of us grew up with family that smoked in the house. How many of us have problems from it. How many of us really suffered "earaches" from being in second hand smoke........
Basically, it boils down to one thing. A small group of people complained, and guess what, a NEW law. Then, another little group complains and they try to compensate with another one. On and on it goes. It ticks me off to see patients at hospitals having to go out to smoke. Oh well, life goes on the same as before, until another group decides they don't like something any more. One day they'll wake up and wonder what happened. How'd the government gain control? Where'd our freedoms go? But, they'll be sure to blame the other guy. |
| First of all, I don’t think people have the right to sneak their pets. Some people don’t even sneak, they walk right in, poochie in hand. I understand why someone with a well behaved dog feels they are being penalized. Unfortunately, there are so many who don’t use common sense or, feel it’s their right to do as they choose. Rules and laws are usually put in place to protect the masses not the one.
We have a large festival every October. I was so glad when they banned dogs. The streets are elbow to elbow in the whole downtown area. When my kids were little and in a stroller, it was frightening to have someone’s dog come up from behind and go nose to nose with my son. (If anyone is interested check out www.rileyfestival.com ). This next part is addressed to Ron. Were you just trying to stir up some controversy about service dogs? Most of the time I agree with your comments. You seem to exhibit common sense and responsible thinking. If service dogs were banned from places because of people with allergies might come in, I guess we would have to begin banning in other areas. O.k. we can’t have dogs in shelters because someone with allergies to dogs might want to come in and adopt a cat. No dogs in the park. I guess anything that anybody is allergic to should be banned. It is sad that some of you have had bad experiences with service dogs that were not maintained properly. It puts the entire group in a bad light. A little info for you: access may be denied if the service animal poses a direct threat to the health and safety to others. |
| Mouthy,my parents both smoked w/ windows barely cracked,I had ear infection,head aches,and I just hated the whole smoking thing.Of course whn i grew up I smoked,and my 9yr old did suffer from MY smoke she USED to get ear infections,and alot of bronchial stuff and w/ her heart defect it scared me too death,so thats the time I stopped,and ever since she hasnt had any ear infections or been sick. So "some" kids do actually get sick from 2nd hand smoke. |
| Tanya, Interesting. Glad to hear you kicked the habit/addiction and that your child suffers no more ill effects.
Of course, my comment went a little deeper than just earaches, that was just the example I used. But, no one I know, friend or family had a problem, unless of course they already had something like asthma, etc... But, if you and the others that say that are correct, I wonder just how much smoking may be involved with dogs and their ear problems.
Not debating the issue, just a thought as I read your post. |
| Gail--Wow! An almost 8 pound preemie!? How early was he? Can you imagine if he had waited until his due date! Wow. I was on time and 5 pounds flat... |
barney1 wrote: Gail--Wow! An almost 8 pound preemie!? How early was he? Can you imagine if he had waited until his due date! Wow. I was on time and 5 pounds flat...
He was born at 35 weeks. My oldest son was born at 36 weeks and was 8 lbs 5 oz. I have big boys - hubby was a 10 lb baby though. |
| I also think there is a time and a place for things. I have had dogs all my life , i got my oes when i was about 12 years old before him i had cross breeds . I even brought him to school a few times. I would never dream of sneaking a dog in anywhere it shouldnt be . I now have three kids and i shudder if i hear a child screaming for something. My kids tried that on but when i left my trolly and walked out of the shop a few times they soon learned. Now when i do shopping i bring my 1 and 2 year olds with me and they are quiet as mice because they know the conseqences if they are bold. the same rule applies to dogs and children if you reward good behavior and respond to bad behavior with negative consequences and be consistant with them it does work. My husband has a saying " Children are like farts , you can just about stand your own" . |
Stephanie wrote: My husband has a saying " Children are like farts , you can just about stand your own" .
HAHAHAHAHAH, you have given me my chuckle for the day, I LOVE THAT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| That is hilarious! I'll have to remember that one! LOL |
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