Genes went crazy?
I have something to share and maybe some of you guys can help me understand..... One of Pisco`s best friend... they can play for hours together  is what I suppose is an OES with some genetic fault.....his name is Paco and has all the caracteristic of an OES built, character, markings, hair except that instead of being the usual black/grey/blue is light brown and the usual white is light beige.....he has beautiful light blue eyes....you can put then side by side and know that they are of the same breed but the diference in color is notorious.
has any of you seen these or know about it? I will take a picture next time I see him and post it. HAPPY HOLLIDAYS!!!!! |
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| More to the story....
Paco was rescued by his owner ....she wanted a dog for sometime one day she went to a party and as she went to the kitchen to look for a glass of water she heard this pitiful cry....as she looked through the kitchen`s window she saw this beautifull dog in a cage to small for him...although he looked ok she could tell he wasn`t happy and probably underfed...she went straight to the owner and asked about him....the owner said that that the dog was left to her by a former boyfriend but she didin`t really have time or will to take care of him...so my friend asked her if she was willig to sell him.......and so she left the party with a very unhappy puppy (he was only 5 month old).she bathed him, fed him and fell in love with him......now he is such a beautifull, loving and playfull puppy ( he`s almost 10 months now)...you can tell they just adore each other........ |
| Hi Vero,
Whilst very much rarer, the brown/white colouration is perfectly normal for a sheepie (I actually received a birthday card from a friend with a beutiful picute of one on it - in PJ's!). Apparently the Breed Standard says that this colour is not "desirable", but I think they're beautiful |
| yep...they are beautiful...
my friend wants to breed Paco just to see if one turns the same way.... but if they are not "disireble" in the breed but they are rarer..shouldn`t they be priceless.....the ones like Paco who are all brown and light beige? just a thought...... vero. |
| The bearded collie and the Lowland Polish Sheep dog look just like OES, but have a lot more brown in them. Some are just as you describe Paco, with brown biege and white.
Are you sure he's an OES? I was told that that was why brown was "undesirable" in OES. Because they would be unable to tell the differences between the closely related breeds. Although my Abbi has a bit of brown hair on her legs, I think it is because she likes to dig in our red clay. I guess I should bathe her and take a closer look. Doesn't matter, there's not an undesirable hair on my Abbi, nor on Paco. That standard is just for "show".  |
There's a link somewhere on this forum, wish I could remember which post  ,but I cannot right at this moment, that goes into great detail about color and genes. I pretty sure it was this forum.
The coat color and the eye color are tied to various other genes and you can predict what color you will get if you can get enough information about the parents and their parents. Some gene alleles are dominant and some recessive. And some change, depending on allele's dominance. I wish I could remember where I read about this. It gets confusing if you don't lay it out right from the beginning. But don't breed the dogs unless you already have owners lined up for them. Reliable, good owners who know how to care for big strong-willed dogs. And know they are not getting a purebred dog. Some on the forum may have strong feelings about breeding dogs of mixed heritage. Here in the States all the ills of a dog are blamed on poor breeding, diet, and upbringing. Sort of like blaming your parents for all of your troubles, it really doesn't do you much good. Professional breeders don't seem to have done their breeds all that much good anyways. All pure bred dogs seem to be having one disease or another. And I am rambling. But the idea was that if your friend was looking for a way to get more pups that look like her dog she needs to do a bit of research into genetics first. It will save a lot of time, effort, and unwanted pups. And it is interesting. |
| Rambling...nope I found it interesting....
and yes I am sure Paco is an OES I will take a picture and post it so you can all see him....as I said he has every caracteristic of an OES except for his hair....and I know for sure because both his parents are black/grey- white OES....my friend asked the former owner.....and you can put Pisco and Paco side by side and know the are the same breed..... |
| This is very interesting. Brown usually isn't a color on its own, but a combination of colors. I found that color post I was talking about and it wasn't on this forum. It was on a labadour retriever forum. My daughter was trying to talk me into another dog -- a lab. The lab page had an in-depth color allele analysis.
I use to try to track down genetically connected alleles when I was taking Biology in college. I worked for a geneticist or was she the molecular biology professor? Whoever it was paid me to match up their data and help them work on a computer model in the late 1970's. Coat and eye color was one of the best studied genomes of the time. I wonder if I could go and look up the info on the internet? Not today. I have two childrens parties to entertain at the elementary school. Wish I could take Abbi, but I am taking underwater photos and snake skins. Long story, but they are appropriate under the circumstances. Will come back and do some quick research. I think you could probably tell your friend a way in which to get at least one more brown and white if not beige OES. You would have to be able to track down Paco's parents though. And you would have to make sure none of the dogs seem to have any major weaknesses. The sure way would be dangerous inbreeding and the not so sure way would be to track down cousins or OES with double recessive alleles. Some research would be invovled. Pedigrees with detailed color descriptions would be needed. With some of the champion lines, their photos help a lot. Gotta go now. |
| Interesting indeed.....I will talk to her about it...
as soon as I have a picture I`ll post it. Merry X-mas ... Vero, Cris and Pisco |
| Merry Christmas Vero, Cris, and Pisco!
Abbi, Angel Wings, Chit and Chat, and Vic, Carol,Crystal, Teresa, and Angela. |
| Hello All.
Below is a link to the home site of an OES owner who has the most beautiful OES with Brown colouring.... http://members.shaw.ca/sheepiehollow |
| I dont know why a lot of you find this strange, considering the OES is a close genetic partner to the Beardie Collie and they are found with liver and white makings exactly the same as the ones in MikeyG's link.
Just my thoughts |
| Interesting is not the same as strange. And I am interested mostly because in order to get a black and white to silver and white dog from the probable mixed ancestry that is the OES's, the dominant color genes had to prevail.
To have brown and white, not a party mix, not a hapestance of splotchy mix colors, but a more recessive color (liver or brown) appear in place of a dominant, means that more than just a pair of color alleles have become recessive. On a genetic level it indicates a change or shift in the dispersal of genes --not weird or unexpected, but something that could be tracked down and used in any future breeding or tracking of those lines exhibiting those traits. And if I could help someone achieve a breeding goal without bringing too many more unwanted or uneeded puppies into the world, why not? Genetics used to be a passion of mine when I was helping with a thorough bred horse breeding program in Mississippi. Tracking down pedigrees and horses, comparing the lines with the actual track and health records was rather fun--and profitable. I agree that the color brown is not that remarkable, but that it appears with the same dominance position as black in bi-colored gene pool --- well that is interesting. |
Personally i would find a Liver and White sheepie absolutely irresistable  Not ever managed to see one in the flesh, but i do know of some when we were looking to get a puppy, but everytime i rang, the breeder has sold them instantly. |
| saw the site...beautifull sheepies.....but to be honest Paco is not like those....he is brown and beige not white...I still don`t have a picture....been on holidays but as soon as a get one I`ll post it.....
Hey my friend doesn`t what to breed Paco just to see if she gets another like him....she was wondering what if she got another like him when she breeds him..... got to put Pisco`s picture from this vacations.....he adores the beach, water,waves and all..... |
| Actually it would depend on the bitch as to whether she would get another like Paco. If the female he breeds with has enough reccessive genes then his would dominate in half of the litter (in theory). Otherwise there would be only a small chance that any of his sons or daughters would be like him, but if any of them were bred to another like him or with reccessive genes, then the chances would be much higher, because he should in theory dilute any gene pool with his combination of genes so that any further mating with any mixed gene allele individual would produce simular pups in about half of all of their offspring. Trouble is making sure their color remains consistently two-toned. In other words, unless the brown and biege color scheme was found in both parents, the odds of getting another brown and beige are very slim.
Unless the mother had a parent, grandparent that also had liver and white or brown and white or brown and biege. Then the odds would go up to being real possibility in half of all of the pups, maybe more. The male contributes at least half of the gene pool. With certian traits he contributes moe than half and with others less. So if Paco mates at all he would contribute his attributes, but they would not be noticed until they dominated. |
| Hi folks,
I believe that the site below belongs to Ray and Ann and that the dog in the picture is a bearded collie. They have both sheepies and beardies. Mikeyg wrote: Hello All. Below is a link to the home site of an OES owner who has the most beautiful OES with Brown colouring.... http://members.shaw.ca/sheepiehollow |
ItWoman is absolutely right, there are 2 Beardied Collies in those pictures and one is the Liver and White dog....Fancy me not spotting that 
Do i feel a dumb ass...hehe.   |
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Dumbass would be me then..... |
Mike...i have absolutely no excuse, i owned Beardies for gods sake  |
| Well guys...seen the pictures...but to be honest...Paco is an OES he looks like an OES 100% in every thing ..... (bearlike walk included).....but the color is brown and light beige.... |
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