Possible agression?
Also, when people walk past the house, there's growling and barking. When people walk past the car, he barks like a nutter. When we were at my husband's parents' house, a visitor came round and was chatting to my mother in law. He wouldn't stop barking at her, despite my best efforts. He was peeing all over the floor at the same time though. I think if she had ignored him, it would've stopped but she kept talking to him and trying to pet him. I've found that the peeing doesn't happen when folk ignore him when they come too ur house. Annoyingly, so many people don't listen when I ask them to ignore him - funnily enough, they're the one's he pees on. Problem is, shouldn't he be over this by now? I know this is a mightily long post but it's been creeping up and we've not really acknowledged how bad it is until tonight, when I was scared to let him off the lead. Maybe it's because he's on the lead and would be fine off but I don't know. I can't have him off the lead to find out as his attention span is short when we're on the roads. He would run across a road to get to a leaf, he is far to interesting in fast moving cars and anything that looks interesting, he tries to run over to. I know this makes him sound awful, but he is the most lovely affectionate pup ever when we're at home. Everyone loves him and no-one is intimidated by him (including my grandparents, who are a bit fragile). He is well trained at home, he does his wee tricks, he takes treats gently, he won't go on the sofa unless we say ok, he will stay until we say ok, he won't touch food right in front of him if you say 'leave it', he won't eat his dinner until we say 'ok'...am I painting the picture here?!? He's lovely! I just never ever ever want to have to walk him again. As that is not really an option, any input would be appreciated! Phew...long message...sore fingers...thanks x |
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| I understand your frustration... I have a mad barker too. She is not aggressive though, not in the least, she just barks like mad if anyone goes by the house or knocks on the door etc.
I really don't think I am of any help to you, as I haven't been able to curb this behavior in my own dog... but good luck and I hope you (and I?) find some replies to your post that may be helpful.  |
| I'm not an animal behaviorist, so take everything I write as pure conjecture.
I don't know whether Harry is being alpha and is showing dominance or is afraid and showing fear aggression. I know from previous conversations with you that Harry has been neutered for more than 6 months. On one hand, Harry sounds like he's being territorial, and protecting the house, the car, his pack (you), which says to me "dominance". On the other hand he's peeing while doing this, which says to me "fear aggression". I don't know if the peeing is submissive, or if he's so excited in doing his job that he just can't control his bladder at the age of 1. I think the "cure" for either is for you to show leadership, but the method might have to be different. Harry needs to know that you both are "large and in charge", (alpha) that there is nothing to fear when the the alpha dogs are around, and that it is not his job to protect the pack. I think that complete mindset covers both possibilities. You do NOT want to coddle hime while he's doing this, by cooing and saying things like "It's ok, good boy, relax" All of those phrases are reinforcements of his behavior. I would start with the "Nothing in life is free" approach. Harry must perform for anything. He must wait for his food, and be fed last. He must sit and "leave it" before he gets the food. He must never get scraps from the table. No treat, no toy, nothing is given to the dog without his first obeying a command. No up on the furniture. No humans down on the ground at his level. No sleeping in bed with you. Humans go though the door first, and dogs sit and wait to be invited through the door. (For safety, unless Harry can perform a sit/stay reliably, it may be best to enforce "dogs up/down the stairs first", rather than have 100 pounds of fur hitting the backs of your legs on the stairway. Never play tug-o-war with Harry, and CERTAINLY never allow him to win at that game. I don't think the halti is the tright way to go. I think if you need a high level of pulling pervention the halti is a nice way to go with an otherwise well behaved dog. But with a dog that needs correction, I think you may need to use a prong collar. We have had Mulligan for nearly a year, and he is still on the prong collar. He just pulls too hard and is not sufficiently trained to prevent him from pulling Joan to the ground or her arm out of the socket. The reason the halti isn't a good choice is because I think you want to use the collar for correction. When he is being aggressive, you need to have a collar on him, and firmly correct saying "No" sharply and with authority but not yelling or screaming. You're giving the NO as a command, not as a correction, the colar is making the correction. This will take a long time, and a lot of consitency. Again, I'm not a behaviorist, and perhaps I'm all wet. |
| None of the behavior described speaks agression to me. It all says fear, and he is barking and acting in that manner so that the scary thing will go away. And it works, because it does.
It is very difficult to assess behavioral and training needs over the internet for other than basic stuff. You need to find a trainer or behavirist in your area that can review all of his body language and YOUR reaction to his behavior and then prescribe what he and you need to do. In the meantime you need to keep everyone safe and not allow him in the situation that will allow him to exhibit in this way. The more he does it the more entrenched the behavior will get. Management is key right now, and if and when you start to expose him to things you need to work below his threshold, and only at the level where he is calm, and feed him tiny, tiny bits of yummy treats when he is calm and pays attention to you. If you are close enough that he is eying other than you, or he is ignoring the treats, or he starts to look uneasy then you are too close and need to leave. A professional trainer can help you through this, and he is young enough to learn this NEW way of reacting as he hasn't been doing it for years and years. If you go to the APDT site and get some referral for a trainer you will work with someone who will use postive methods to help him be more comfortable and eventually ENJOY being around strangers, and not expect to be slammed or hurt or threatened by his handler. And you are probably right that the collar and leash are not helping, as he feels confined and unable to escape. I personally would not be throwing punishment into that mix. Hope this helps! |
| I can only second the need for a good trainer. I have one who is doing wonders for my two. Don't give up on him. Understanding their body language and anticipating unwanted behavior from their first signs is the most effective instant for correction. A good trainer will teach you how to pick up on these signs and respond properly. Yes they must know you are in charge. |
| Hi I agree with getting a good trainer or behaviorist. I have had friends with all sorts of problems with their dogs. It is surprising how quickly they can sort the problem. and it may not be as expensive as you think. Is there anywhere near you that you can walk harry offlead that is a safe fenced area with no dogs for a while. At least that would give you a break and you will feel more relaxed about his walks. Smeagol is 1yr old, and needs so much exercise, If he runs offlead he can have a good time and Frodo and I can amble along after him at our own pace
Chris Frodo and Smeagol |
| I agree with everyone on this! Also, have you read The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation, by Jan Fennell? It echos all the advice Ron was giving, it really is a fantastic help!
Good luck and keep us posted with Harry, there is no doubt you love him and I'm sure with a little help he will be fine! 
Colleen and The Gooch |
Thanks for the responses. I think we are doing the majority of things correctly with Harry around the house. He has to work for all treats, food etc. I've read about establishing the alpha and we both make sure we stick to it (with the exception of the sofa...he's just so cuddly!!!) I do think it is a nervous thing. When we are out of the house, he seems unsure of his position - perhaps he thinks he has to protect but can't quite cope with the responsibility of it. I'm struggling with the logic of the alpha outwith the house in that I've put all Jan Fennell's ideas into practice. Harry always comes to us on command, unless there's a distraction such as kids or another dog. Then he often does not. I've not found anything in her book to help this, as walking away from him (calling his name) rarely works in that situation as he's too interested in what he's doing and the other dog owner can't quite believe I'm leaving!!! I think the best option, as suggested, might be a behaviourist who can see Harry in the environment. I may be being completely overparanoid about it but I'd rather be safe than sorry! Thanks lots  ) |
| What does he do if you let him go to greet the dog rather than hold him back? My older dog has always been very territorial of both our home, car and pretty much anywhere I am. She goes nuts when she sees other dogs through a fence or across the street but if she's allowed to greet them, she's fine and quiets right down. I think she just needs to know that the other dog is cool and not going to invade her space! She loves the other dogs at the dog park and never so much as barks when she's free to explore and greet on her own, though I'm sure being on neutral territory helps. |
| We've got TWO mad barkers at home. They don't growl at other dogs, but like to bark a lot at strangers that approach the front gate. They were getting out of control, but when we started asessing the alpha role once again, things got calmer and they started paying attention and stop barking when told to do so.
Besides a good trainer, you may want to start using leash training outside. It involves the use of a very long leash to keep him in control and teach him to come when called, no matter what distraction is outside. I've heard it's very effective. Hope this helps, good work! |
| Spoke to my husband about it and he thinks I'm perhaps being a bit overparanoid. Harry only does the growling thing when he's on the lead and both of us admitted that we are both guilty of tightening the lead when we see people to encourage Harry to walk neatly beside us. What we've only realised now is that every time we've done that, it must have been agitating him and he now associates people and other dogs as being a threat as we react to them each time. When he's off the lead, he has been really playful with dogs and we've never had a problem. I think because he's so big, I've been too quick to ensure he's under control, therefore less intimidating to other people, and I think I've been doing him damage.
I was thinking of trying it without the halti, as he hates it and to reward him more for good behaviour. If he associates seeig other dogs with getting a treat, he should improve. We're trying to avoid a trainer just now as we'd rather try and fix this ourselves so if anyone has any tips, we'll give them a shot... thanks again x |
| Okay, I think we've nailed it! And I think I have to acknowledge Bosley's mum's post here - he's officially a nervous wimp! We took him out today when it was light and when it was dark. When it was light, he would strain to get to dogs on the other side of the road, but no growling. He was running and playing with other dogs in the field as happy as can be. When in the dark, the straining at the lead to get across the road was accompanied by warning growls. I've noticed before that he doesn't like to spend any time outside in the dark and runs in immediately after going to the toilet, as opposed to his trying to stay in the garden for as long as possible, which usually happens. He's also a lot more growly and barky when he hears noises at night, which I've never worried about as I quite like it when I'm alone with him at night on walks. Didn't test him with other dogs in the field when it was dark as I find it really creepy and I'm a wimp too!!
Obviously some discipline is required and we have started distracting him from other dogs with treats and rewarding him for ignoring them...this will take loads of patience I'm sure, but it's good to know that there's a pretty simple explanation for it. I am very over-paranoid...he's my first dog and I worry so much about getting it wrong! Thank lots for your help (and patience!!!) Gillx |
| I am pleased you are getting the problem sorted good luck.
Chris Frodo and Smeagol |
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