Breeder has no concern!
I have not posted much because I just work too much. Some of you may remember that I have two fuzzy kids, both of which have Hip Dysplasia. Bailey and Madison. They are doing fine, but had horrible Xrays, so we are taking the orthopedic surgeons advise and giving them Glucosamine and just keeping an eye on them. I had made an offer to the breeder to keep my money for the two dogs, from their health guarantee, to get her dogs checked and spayed/neutured if needed. She said she would, but that was a crock as was everything else she ever told us. We were very naive when we got our kids. Anyway, her dog just had eleven more puppies on 7-30-2005. That is five litters from the same parents in 30 months. Hasn't missed a breeding cycle yet. 
What can I do? What should I do? It is just horrible to think that someone continues to keep spitting out puppies with no regard to the quality of the breed. Feel free to post here or pm me with suggestions. Sorry if this sounds negative, but my blood is boiling right now. Have a nice night, Eric |
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| I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions but wanted to extend our sympathy! That indeed must be frusterating! I'm sure that someone will have some great ideas for you!
Colleen and Gucci George |
| How awful... have you considered contacting the AKC? |
| Hi Eric-
The only thing i can think of is to contact one of the folks at OESCA (Old English Sheepdog Club of America). It may be that your breeder is listed with the organiztion and has signed a contract for good breeding practices. If they are, their practices would merit a review by the club if not outright revocation of their membership... although, generally speaking people this irresponsible don't care about things like responsible breeding practice contracts or membership in the national breed club... Still it is worth a shot- and the OESCA people may be able to give you other ideas! I'd start by contacting Tarja Peters at oescrazy2@yahoo.com. She is the puppy referral person for the club, and can probably get you started at least! Good luck! Karen  |
| Eric,
What horrible news! Having a senior dog with hip dysplasia, it would be unthinkable to me for her same parents to continue to be bred. Unfortunately, some breeders are in it just for the money. They probably wouldn't be bothered by any threat from the OESCA or the AKC. You have my sympathies. Chris |
| I am so sorry for what you are going through.
Maybe a threat from the AKC will do something. If they lose membership they can't charge as much for puppies. Anyhow... Good Luck! Elissa |
| I agree with Karen, contact Tarja Peters. While she may not be able to do anything at least she will be aware of this "breeder". |
| Eric, I think I have talked to you before. I know this women in Baltimore that has Molly and Rufus. She has one named Shelby that is one of my Puppiies about 4 years old now. Shelby is spayed. She was in My Parents group on Yahoo when one day she said that a lady contacted her with a female OES that wa with Babies. She took her to the vet and and had her checked. The next thing we know Molly has had 10 Babies. She then tells us that she is selling them for $800. What she orginally said was that she was going to find them good homes and have her spayed. Then the Daddy Rufus shows up. Then she lets it slip that there is another litter on teh way. Supposibaly a accident. I let her know what I thought of this. She will no longer reuturn my emails or phone calls. I do know that she bought a house. Guess where that money came from? If it were me I would run a ad in the newpapers in the Baltimore area and just ask if anyone has gotten a puppy from a breeder in the area and had any problems with it. As long as you don't mention her name you won't get in trouble,. What is she going to do anyway. If you need more info from me I have her work # and will help you if you need a statement. She KNEW NOTHING about either one of these dogs. She would put pictures of My Puppy Shelby as the carrot..........It is all about Money.....Makes my sick.......... I have contacted AKC about her with this info and they said there was nothing they could do..........That really surprised me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me know if I can help you anymore. Kaye Second Chance OES REscue |
| Hello. Yes, the AKC makes me sick! They advocate animal rights and smart breeding and then let someone register 5 litters, over 40 puppies, from the same parents in a 30 month period.
I called them today and just became more frustrated. I am going to add a page to my site advising people of everything I have learned. On a good note, they lady at puppysites.com did take her add off of her site. That is where I found our kids. I know she cannot screen evry breeder on her site, but she does respond to emails. I am calling the SPCA and Humane society tomorrow. You should see and smell where these dogs live. Thanks for the note. Eric |
| Eric, I just checked that website where she was advertising her litters. I have had heard of or had dealings with about 3/4 of those breeders that have listings. There is one that is pumping out deaf Babies....There is one that has changed her kennel name 3 times I know of. THERE IS EVEN A PUPPY BROKER LISTED. She has a cute little webpage with little SHeepies running around and doesn't even own a Sheepie. One of My Puppy Parents { when I used to be a breeder } sued her and won. IF people would just ask questions and ask for references of Parents that have Puppies over 3 years old. Just makes me sick.............Kaye, Second Chance OES Rescue |
SheepdogMarine wrote: What can I do? What should I do? It is just horrible to think that someone continues to keep spitting out puppies with no regard to the quality of the breed. Eric Eric, Thank you for your post. This type of "breeding" happens everywhere. When we were looking for our puppy we saw an advertisement in a national dog magazine-it leads you to believe the person is an OES breeder. We called, we visited. Located in a one story home, when you walk in there are AKC certificates and puppy pictures lining the walls. We asked about the sheepdog puppies and the young lady disappeared down to the cellar, next thing you know we had all these OES puppies running around. Of the 10, 3 of them were dragging there back legs. I asked to see the OES mom and dad who were on property. An extremely matted and unkept OES adult was presented to us. It gets even more discouraging. Potential buyers were driving up by the carload because they have many breeds of puppies available.... A young lady bought a Beagle puppy who looked so ill.. We left heartbroken, they were playing on the good nature of people and selling the puppies at full cost. I was most upset by the fact they advertised the puppies as AKC registered. So many people are unaware anyone can register with AKC. There needs to be a different system in place, perhaps needing to belong to a breed club before being able to register at AKC as a breeder. |
| Zahra,
Thanks. It is very sad to think people don't care about their doggies, only the money. My dogs live a better life than most people. I had just lost my poodle, Sara, to cancer. I knew I could not handle an empty house for long and we found a breeder that seemed nice enough and had AKC registered dogs. I bought Sara at a pet store when I was 23 and didn't know any better. I thought I was doing better this time. I just look at it as pre-rescuing two dogs for the sum of $800 a piece. I'll never give them up, they are great! When the time comes to have surgery, if it ever does, we will do what is best for them. The AKC is the real disappointment. I thought it meant something. They have guidelines listed right on their site for responsible breeding, but don't care if these are followed or not. Once again, the naive person loses. AKC registered means nothing, except I was dumb enough to send them some money so they could have two more registered dogs. I would have been better off getting an OFA registered dog. I hate to always seem negative, but the bad breeder thing with no one regulating it is pathetic. This site is a great place to learn about getting a dog from a proper breeder. I just wish there was a way to get more people to find these types of sites before becoming a dog owner or cat or whatever. I added a page to my company website about Sheepdogs for sale. It is not much, but if it helps one person, it is worth it. See what you think. www.sheepdogmarine.com I am going to take an add out in the Baltimore Sun as well. I am not mentioning any names unless people call me and I am telling the truth. The bad part is now is that she has eleven more puppies that all need a good home. This never ends. Have a nice night, Eric |
| Eric,
Its great you dedicated a page on your web site to this issue. You can educate people on this wide spread issue, and in your area specifically, your breeder. The page is great! We stumbled around years ago before the internet, now info is just a press of a button away! The sad part is like you, we did not know who to call to report these folks. You're right, it just goes on and on and the $$$ keep flowing. Your sheepies look very happy, they are just sweet! I have a site you might be interested in, but its not at my fingertips. I'll find it and pm it to you.... |
| May I ask why her name is being protected? I don't understand how you would be held liable for any defamation of character if what is stated is completely true. You have the documentation to prove everything so how could you be sued especially if this person made promises to stop breeding. I think it would be best to bring this person out in public, so maybe that any type of retaliation will force her to stop breeding puppies. I just don't get it. They have Megan's Law to register sex offenders - why can't we a site be published with people's names that have this kind of track record and get that url exposure.
Any lawyers out there, that maybe can help out on any legality issues??!! |
| I have had it out with several breeders already, and that was concerning threads that were mildly critical and mostly positive, unlike this thread which has been wholly and extremely negative.
I don't want to be involved in another round of nastiness right now, so I appreciate the anonymity of this particular breeder in this particular case. *I* don't even know the name of the breeder, though at some point, I'll probably hear from her.  |
| I have not mentioned any names out of respect for Ron. He is just trying to run a good, informative site that is fun. I have been on other boards dealing with cars that just turned into a big mess because of immature people.
Anyone can email me or PM me and I will give out any info I can. I am glad this site is here and wish I had found it before I got the dogs. What I have done is contacted the AKC, waste of time; contacted Tarja Peters, who was very helpful and told me to contact the Humane Society, which I will; emailed all of the local news stations explaining my story, hoping they will have a space for a story like this; and added a page to my site explaining my story. I don't want to cause Ron or this site any problems, but would like to educate people about a better procedure for buying or adopting any breed of dog. Thanks, Eric |
| I think that you are doing quite well with your actions so far. Good for you about being mature enough to know not to get into "trouble" yet strong enough to fight for your cause.
Well done! I wish I had more advice or options to give you. Hopefully your work will do good in the end. Good luck and keep it up. If you get to a spot where the rest of us can help, please let us know. |
Maxmm wrote: I think that you are doing quite well with your actions so far. Good for you about being mature enough to know not to get into "trouble" yet strong enough to fight for your cause.
Well done! I wish I had more advice or options to give you. Hopefully your work will do good in the end. Good luck and keep it up. If you get to a spot where the rest of us can help, please let us know. You could take that "Let's Go Mets!" off of your signature. 
J/K thanks for the concern! Eric |
| You better not say "Go Yankees" or you'll be in such trouble!!!
Bring it on Waterboy!! (Marine=Water Hah hah hah I crack myself up!) |
| The sad truth is that the AKC doesn't really mean anything,it is my belief they are all about the money also. If you ever have any contact with them it will be obvious that they don't care. Any kind of endorsement from them is meaningless. |
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| Eric and I have spoken privately about this breeder. It appears that this where I just purchased my little Zeke. According to her website, the other 10 puppies have found homes at this point.
There are some contradictions in what she told me. She said Molly has only had 3 litters. Is it really possible to have 5 litters in just 3 short years. Isn't the gestation period 2 months? She also told me that she got her other female to breed but that Rufus and her do not get along that way. Turns out Shelby is spayed. Why on Earth would she lie about that? I must say that the house was clean when I was there and all the dogs looked healthy. The fact that she lives in a poor section of Baltimore isn't really an issue for me. But maybe she just cleaned up before I got there?? Eric, I'm not doubting anything you've told me or that you've had a bad experience with your babies. I'm just stating what I was told by Hillary. Maybe she's just a very good liar and I fell for it!!!! Zeke goes to the vet tonight and my husband is going to make sure he gets a complete overhaul from the doctor. He was not very happy last night when he read your message. I've lost 2 dogs in the past 3 years and he doesn't want to see me heartbroken again. (Dexter got out of our fence and got hit. And Sammy developed seizures and did not recover one night and was left in a coma-state and needed to be euthanized.) I appreciate you sharing your story with me. All sheepies deserve better. Hugs, Sharon |
| Sharon,
Hello. I really did not want to upset you, but thought if you found out about a problem sooner, you could deal with it in an easier way. Our surgeon said at three to four months, the TPO may have been an option. Hopefully, little Zeke is healthy with no problems at all. From my research, it is possible to have certified good hips in the parents and still have a problem a couple litters later. We may have just been unlucky and all of the other hips were good. The over breeding is just awful though, poor Molly. I have seen four of the litters on her site. Jan 2004, July 2004, where we got our kids, Jan 2005 and July 2005. Another member told me about the first, which I never saw on the site. She just keeps taking down the previous litters. Don't feel bad about falling for her stories. We did also. She certainly seemed to care and to be a good person. Good Luck at the vet, we are keeping all fingers and paws crossed for you and Zeke! Have a nice night, Eric |
| OMG is she a puppy mill? My breeder keeps me up on who they are and the back round. I wish you the best of luck with your baby. God bless you
even with the best of breeding we got Fergie with a bad heart. NOT the breeders fault. The vet says one in 500 |
| Eric,
Zeke was a good boy at the vet. He checked out beautifully. Everyone just loved his little puppy breath and furry coat. It's such a treat to carry him around in my arms as I know it won't be long until he's similar to that of a black bear....LOL We asked about checking his hips and we'll look into it further once he is a few months old. The vet said his paws do not tend to point out, which is a good sign. Thanks again for the honesty. Hugs, Crazy |
| I don't think it started as a puppy mill. Funny how $800 a puppy can make someone lose their good judgement. Breeding a dog every six months is a puppy mill in my book, no matter how good your intentions were at first.
Thanks for your thoughts, Eric Sheepdog Marine! |
| Bad things can still happen even with the best of dogs... or what you think and hope to be the best. The important thing is to prevent it from happening again. A dog who produced two puppies in one litter with bad hips should have been spayed and never used again, even if both her and the sire had excellent hips. She also should NOT have been bred 5 times in 3 years.
Sometimes if a bitch is in excellent shape, and had a great litter, a breeder will breed 2 heats in a row, but it should never be every single heat. Most breeders breed every other heat, which is approximately once a year, and some breed twice in a row, then wait a year and breed once more. It depends on the dog, the puppies etc.... |
| That is great to hear! I hope you never hear a clicking hip!
Have a nice night, Eric Sheepdog Marine |
Quote: I hope you never hear a clicking hip!
Eric, That is so true. It is such a bad sound to hear! Barney's hips click fairly often and it just breaks my heart because he is so young still  |
| Speaking of bad breeders__
After the loss of my beloved OES, I was in such a state of emotion, that I did not research as well as I should have for my new OES pup. I saw an ad and the breeder was close, near Baltimore, MD, so we made the trip and bought our baby. Her parents- Molly and Rufus. Our baby, Hannah, is hyper. She is almost 3 years old, and although we love her as a child, it did teach us a lesson, about bad breeders. We will keep her to the very end, but I must admit, she does try our patience. She has been to obedience school, had an individual trainer, and even sessions with an animal behavioist who prescribed medication. Nothing has worked to calm her down to even learn basis commands. Although at this point in time, she is healthy, if anyone else has a dog with parents named Molly and Rufus, would you please share any health problems that your pup may have experienced? I contacted the OES rescue early on, not to give our baby away, but for tips on ho w to cope with the hyperactivity. She knew of the breeder and said, that Molly had already had another set of puppies. So, we need to stick together and let those who love the breed know that there are breeders out there just trying to make a buck. So sad, but true! |
| Sheepdogmarine:
I had a similar problem some years ago with a breeder who gave no thought to the health of his litters. All had some major medical defect either dysplasia, monorchidism and/or deafness. After meeting with three of his buyers, we agreed to file a Small Claims action against the breeder. Here in California you cannot bring an attorney to Small Claims court but the upper limit for small claims is $5,000. So we all filed one action in the amount of $5K for each puppy! The total legal liability against the breeder ended up at $20,000 ! Since you have two OES each having the same medical problem, you would be able to bring two Small Claims actions for fraud and misrepresentation (presuming you got a health guarantee). You would file the actions in the Small Claims court nearest to you, NOT near the breeder. Spend the money to have a process server deliver the subpoena for an in-person service. (If personally served, the breeder cannot say "I didn't know about it". Generally, bad apples like your breeder never bother to show up in court so you will probably win by default. If he/she does appear they will be without an attorney - just like you. Remember to BE PREPARED! Have copies of all documents the breeder gave you together with written statements from your vet on the diagnosis and cost of past, present and future treatment. Whether the breeder appears or defaults, you should have no trouble being the prevailing party. Once you have obtained judgement against the breeder, you may then request what is called an "Abstract of Judgement" which can be recorded in the office of your county recorder/courthouse. Once the Abstract is recorded, you can then commence an additional proceeding to 'execute' against any property of the breeder. In essense, you can go after their home, auto, other property, etc. to satisfy the judgement you obtained in Small Claims court. By this time, the breeder may get a hint that you are not happy with him/her. You may be able to negotiate the breeder's neutering the sire and bitch in return for your waiving all or part of your judgement. Good luck and let me know how it goes. If this sounds like I'm a legal beagle - you're right. Semper Fi, Simm2zoo:twisted: |
| Where do you all think my rescue dogs come from, these back yard breeders. They don't care, it is just money to them. They could care less about the dogs.
That is why us rescue people always warn every one not to buy from a back yard breeder. Anyone that advertises on line or in the newspaper is not a qualified breeder, they are out to make a buck and don't care who buys the dogs. That is why all these beautiful loving sheepies wind up on the street or in shelters, they are sold to just anybody that has no idea about the breed. I have heard statements, "Oh, he got to big for us" hello, OES a large breed dogs, or "Too much hair" My Sara Catherine was dumped on the side of the road, today she is a therapy dog and has always been a very sweet girl, all laid back. Why did the dumo her, who knows. Never ever buy from anybody that advertises their dogs. And BTW, the AKC don't care. I worked as a vet tech for 16 years and I have seen so called AKC registered dogs, that were no way close to the breed that she should have been. Like a long haired Boxer LOL, but the owner had the AKC papers. The only reptuable breeders are listed on the OESCA website, you have to ask for a list. Their puppies come with a guarantee, hips, thyroid, eyes and if anything ever happens and the buyer can't keep the dog, they will take it back, no matter what. You will never get such guarantee from the back yard breeder. The puppies will cost $1500. and more, but with a guarantee like that, it is worth it. Sorry, I am on my soap box, but I hate those people and there is nothing you can do, except not buy their dogs and don't go into a pet shop either, all those dogs come from them and no, you will not rescue a pup if you buy one, they will just replace it with another. Sorry, this is long. Ingrid |
| Soapbox away, Ingrid!!! This needs to be said Loudly and Often and everyone needs to take this message with them everytime they meet people!!
In line at the bank, out at the park, wherever and whenever, tell anyone within earshot. I've had many meaningful conversations with people (about this subject and the evils of Greenies) in the pet section of Target. If everyone just tells one person, pretty soon everyone will hear it! We all have to stand for something and what better to stand for than the health and safety of the dogs that are living now and the dogs who are yet to be born. |
| We have to go out and educate, some people are very ignorant about puppy mills and back yard breeders, they just dont know or don't bother to find out. We also have to teach the young, start in Kindergarten.
Belong to your local Humane Society, ours has outreach tables at least once a month at the mall or Wal-Mart. I always had the impression that the veterinarien's cared about the animals, but I was mistaken. They too, are only in it for money, at least most of them. Oh, they sound like they care, but once I worked for one, I found out what they really were thinking, MONEY We had one client with a mixed breed pup and since it was so cute they did not want to spay it, they wanted to breed it so they could have another cutie just like her. How dumb can you be, what are the chances, unless you clone it. Did my vet discourage them from breeding, no way, I opened my mouth and told them not to do it, guess what, after they left I got called into the office LOL I was told by them having pups it would bring in more money since they would get all their vaccinations, in other words, don't say anything, we do not want to loose a client. We had several back yard breeders bringing in pups about every month and they got their first shots at the vets, more money. I talked to my vet about them and he said they were fine, at least they got their shots. These people drove those puppies hundreds of miles out of town to sell them at a flea market. My vet did not care, I got in so much trouble for speaking up, they finally put me in the back and I was a surgery tech only, this way I could not talk to the client. Well I did anyway every chance I got LOL Ingrid |
| Phoebe is my first OES. I previously had always had St Bernards. Many from rescue. because of their size they have a tendancy to get arthritis and hip dysplasia ( I have had two with this. ) My vet is licensed in large animal and always took care of my horses and dogs. As the dogs got older and arthritis set in she advise me to get J-Flex Concentrate. It is made for horses and cost much less than the glucosamine. It worked wonders. My last St lived to a great old age of 14 yrs and had hip dysplasia surgery at 9 months old. Since it is made for horses you only need a pinch with the main meal. |
| Hi SheepdogMarine,
I really like what Simm2Zoo had to say. There is power in numbers and I guarantee you 100% there is no law in which someone can sue you if what you say is the truth. Defamation of character is only the claim someone can sue you for if what you say is UNTRUE. So please don't hesitate to place an ad in the paper if you want to, asking for anyone that has purchased a dog from this breeder and has had problems to contact you. That too is also legal. If you are still unsure then just place an ad asking for people that have had puppies from this breeder to contact you. Admitedly I'm basing my experience on Canadian Law (also have a degree in Crim) but I heard Judge Judy (lol yes I'm a fan!) quoting the same thing I just stated..You can only be sued if what you say is NOT true. I recently mentioned on another post that a group exist in my area called Animal Advocates. This group post on their "watchdog" site a list of all the BYB and puppymills. They have a number of volunteers that have a database of the same phone numbers which appear time and time again in the newspapers listing puppies for sale. This is checked out and time and time again the litters are from the same mother. That person is then added to the list of puppymill or BYB which warns buyers. Granted that only works if the buyer is even aware of puppymills and BYB and do their homework. Still attention is brought to where a pup is coming from. I pray you find a solution to stop or bring attention to her practise. If your contract stated healty pups you might have recourse in being able to sue her but better to really hit her where it hurts if you get others to side with you and bring about media attention. Good Luck to you Marianne |
| You Go Ingrid!!!!!!! People say " Well you need to warn people". "You need to educate the public"....... I have talked until I am Blue In The Face and people still go ahead and get a puppy from?????? BREEDERS LIE!!!!!!!! I hear these stories over and over again....... This just breaks My Heart!!!!!
Kaye Second CHance OES Rescue |
| Kaye,
Hello. How right you are! I wish we had known where to look when we got our kids. As a novice pet owner and having purchased my last dog from a pet store, I decided I would try to do better to fight puppy mills and get an AKC registered dog. My last, dog Sara was my best friend in the world and a great dog. Just wanted to clarify I never had a problem with my pet store dog. Anyway, I bet 90% of pet buyers know nothing of looking through the breed's referral system. They probably think, as I did, that I was doing a good thing by getting an AKC dog that was not from a pet store. Certainly people in the business of dogs know the best way to get a healthy dog. I did the best I could. I know you are not faulting me, but just trying to explain what might be happening. I think you also know I will do whatever it takes to keep my kids healthy and they will never have to be rescued. So at least I saved two from ever having to be a rescue's problem. I am sure that many people are not that way and that is why there are so many rescues. It is a sad situation. One that will probably never change much. Getting the AKC shut down would be the first step in my book. They may do some good things, but they are recognized by new or inexperienced pet owners as the experts. They watch all of the AKC shows and get excited. The AKC must really know their stuff! The AKC is the one who does not care if a breeder follows there guidelines or not. They even continue to register litters and litters of puppies from the same parents. BTW, Molly and Rufus just had their seventh litter!!!!!!! What does the AKC do? Just keeps cashing those checks!!! Maybe if every responsible breeder boycotted all AKC events, the word might get out. Hey, that may be a way to get it done. I know I will never attend one. Done venting now! My kids are doing fine. Still on Cosequin and are doing great! Have a nice day, Eric |
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