Amichien bonding with a submissive dog
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| My opinion on ignoring them when you come in is basically to teach them to restrain from being overly excited, which aids in correcting the jumping up, urinating, etc., problems that can be associated with the excitement of our returns.
The answers vary. You know your dog and what works in your situation. If the dog walks up calmly, you want to love it, then by all means show it the love its seeking. To re-enforce all the other training, the alpha stuff, etc., its good to alternate. Have the dog earn the praise on occasion and other times, just return the love with no strings attached. Alternate commands, never give the same ones in the same order. It becomes a habit and before you know it, they do them all in the order you've continuously given them, and all you said was 'sit'. Learned that the hard way. 
Be consistant, don't watch the clock and alternate somewhat. They notice and learn by our behavior and actions. They know if we do this, that this is what follows and they're waiting on us to do what "they know" we do, before we even think about doing it.  |
Valerie, I ignore Panda when I first walk in...drop my purse on the counter, go get the mail, and then head for the bathroom....Panda does the same thing...she knows my moves exactly, in fact she is one step ahead of me...her nose is in the mail slot as Im walking to it and she sits by the toilet before I even get there. She then precedes to "talk" to me about her day. Once I have changed my clothes, then she does the real wiggle bottom. When we are sitting and watching tv, if Panda wants love, we give it to her. I would only ignore her if she were too hyper and she needed to calm down. But I think by establishing a routine she automatically will calm down in the process of you unwinding when you get home....at least it has worked with Panda. She is so smart, that when I go outside to have a cigerette, she'll play. When I go to put the cigerette out she is already at the back door ready to go in...darn dog is always one step ahead  |
Thanks. Your comments are both really helpful. Chumley is definitely onto my routine which sounds very similar to yours (Darcy) I wasn't sure if I still needed to wait even though she was calm and I was done with what I needed to do. I'm very good at ignoring her when she is not exhibiting behavior I like. . . 
Mouthypf -- I am curious -- what is the downside of Chumley anticipating my standard sequence of commands? For example, before we go for a walk I want her to come, sit, wait for me to put on the collar, stay while I go get the leash and then we go out the door. I am hoping she will start to understand the pattern so I don't actually have to tell her tocome, sit and stay. Is that the kind of thing you mean? |
| Valerie, do you say"Do you want to go for a walk?!!!" and get her excited before the walk actually takes place? With Panda, we take her regular collar off and then she knows its walk time. she goes to the garage door and waits for us to get her leash. She actually helps put her choke collar on...(she uses her nose and nudges)...She doesnt sit rather well, while Brian is locking up until I tell her to sit and stay...I would guess if you didnt get her worked up before hand, she would be easier to handle. We also have to work on getting her to remain calm before her walk too...so everyone, whats the answer?? |
valerie wrote: Mouthypf -- I am curious -- what is the downside of Chumley anticipating my standard sequence of commands? For example, before we go for a walk I want her to come, sit, wait for me to put on the collar, stay while I go get the leash and then we go out the door. I am hoping she will start to understand the pattern so I don't actually have to tell her tocome, sit and stay. Is that the kind of thing you mean?
Yes and no. 
In that example it would be a good thing. That's the sequence you're using to train her for that, and the end result will most likely always be the same. "Her sitting while you put the leash on." If you don't vary the sequence at times, (not necessarily for the above example) she may "assume" you are going to expect her to do the same thing and will just automatically do it. I learned the hard way with one of my first OES. I'd tell her to come, sit, lay down, roll over, sit, and give her a treat. A little more involved than that, but to keep it short. After awhile I'd call her she'd come running and proceed to sit, lay down, roll over, sit, and look at me for the "treat", all without commands. Was funny, but hard to break. And, was my fault.
But, the best example I can give you is the one that taught me to NEVER to do anything the same way or at the same time with any other dog again. I learned that they should never "anticipate" your "every" move. One of my best behaved females knew that when "this" happens, "this" follows. She'd act accordingly. I thought that was great until........... I had always let my dogs out in the morning before I did anything else. Well, she had a litter of pups. The alarm rang, I got up and immediately afterward heard this scream. The sound of a puppy in trouble. My Lacy, heard the alarm, knew I was coming for her, jumped up (liked she'd been doing for years), and stepped on one of her 3 day old pups. 
We rushed her to the vet, but her little heart was damaged beyond repair. She hadn't "seen" this world yet, but had a life time of love in three precious days. She lost her life because of my carelessness, and the sound of an alarm clock. My Lacy was a wonderful mother and pet, but her knowing my "every" move and responding, taught me a valuable lesson. Never repeat. Change something a little bit, now and then, to prevent the same mistake. I hope this better explains what I meant. |
Darcy wrote: Valerie, do you say"Do you want to go for a walk?!!!" and get her excited before the walk actually takes place? With Panda, we take her regular collar off and then she knows its walk time. she goes to the garage door and waits for us to get her leash. She actually helps put her choke collar on...(she uses her nose and nudges)...She doesnt sit rather well, while Brian is locking up until I tell her to sit and stay...I would guess if you didnt get her worked up before hand, she would be easier to handle. We also have to work on getting her to remain calm before her walk too...so everyone, whats the answer??
Actually, I don't say anything specific because I don't want her to get all worked up. In fact, if she does get over excited, I walk away and try again later after she has calmed down. I keep her regular collar on and add a gentle leader for the walk. She's obeying pretty well at this point. The worst part used to be her forcing her way out the front door and bounding down the stairs. Now, after using gentle leader closely held, commands and treat rewards, she waits for me to go out first and waits on the stoop (outside stairs) until I say ok. It is very agreeable. And I only use treats about 1/3 of the time at this point. I haven't solved the guest enthusiasm problem yet because I don't have anyone that can help me with it. . . |
mouthypf wrote: One of my best behaved females knew that when "this" happens, "this" follows. She'd act accordingly. I thought that was great until...........
I had always let my dogs out in the morning before I did anything else. Well, she had a litter of pups. The alarm rang, I got up and immediately afterward heard this scream. The sound of a puppy in trouble. My Lacy, heard the alarm, knew I was coming for her, jumped up (liked she'd been doing for years), and stepped on one of her 3 day old pups. I hope this better explains what I meant. Yes, it does. That is a very sad story and a terrible accident but it seems more like bad luck than bad training. Sounds like you've forgiven Lacy. I hope you have also forgiven yourself. I can't imagine that anyone would have anticipated something so sad would happen just because the dog heard your alarm clock. . . |
valerie wrote: Yes, it does. That is a very sad story and a terrible accident but it seems more like bad luck than bad training.
Sounds like you've forgiven Lacy. I hope you have also forgiven yourself. I can't imagine that anyone would have anticipated something so sad would happen just because the dog heard your alarm clock. . .A little of both probably. But, knowing my behavior, and their willingness to please taught "me," that although no one would anticipate an accident like that, thats what caused it. It wasn't poor training on the dog's part. They knew exactly what was expected and was eager to obey. Had Lacy not been seperated from the others, she would've been at the door with them, before I came out of the bedroom. Had I altered my actions by going to the bathroom, etc., they might not have "raced" to the door. It's kind of like what the Army teaches. You never take the same path twice. The enemy watches, realizing you do this they know where to plant the mines. Next trip out, Bam, they got ya. I had an uncle that did that in Viet Nam and lost his leg. He admitted he knew better. If I would've "heard" what he saying, rather than just "seeing," I would've learned that lesson from his mistake.
As far as forgiveness. Lacy and I both learned a hard lesson. I felt horrible, but there was no blame. My precious Lacy, in her 12 years of life never did anything that I had to forgive her for, unlike some of the others. |
| Hi Valerie,
My experience is a little different than yours because mine is definitely not a submissive dog! With Bailey I follow the Amichien method because he is constantly trying to establish himself as the Alpha around here. We don't have too much trouble with jumping up, over excitement, etc. But he is very headstrong and if we don't constantly reinforce the pack status he "forgets" his training very quickly. I use the 5 minute rule just for major comings and goings - when we leave the house - not every time I leave the room. I also use the gesture eating technique, which has worked really well for us, and have trained Bailey to "sit" and "stay" before coming in and going out the door. He used to bully his way out the door first every time. Recently I've been out of town a lot and have learned the hard way that I am the only member of my family who follows this discipline. When I got home last night I watched my husband let Bailey out, then have to chase him around the yard for 15 minutes to get him to come back in  It was a classic case of "what not to do". Bailey is a bit easier to train than my husband |
| I second the fact that dogs are immensely easier to train than husbands!!
(Hey Ron, the chicks are ganging up on the XY chromosomes again!) |
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