Really, there was no choice at all...
is officially Second Chance OES Rescue, Inc.! SecondChanceOES@aol.com Hi All Five puppies from a USDA commercial breeder have just arrived at Second Chance OES Rescue from Springfield, Missouri. The 2 eleven week olds & 3 nine week old babies were headed for a dog auction in Wheaton, MO. We were told by the commercial breeder that the Hunte Corporation rejected these puppies for their pet stores due to their color (two are fawn, 1 gray/white, two black & white), small size of the two little girls, not enough hair on the head or a fuzzy face & possible deafness in two of the puppies. The rescuers' options were either purchase these 5 babies outright at a reduced $ or allow these babies to go to auction where they would most likely be passed over & PTS due to their appearance. We were given the option of getting the AKC papers for these babies for an additional $50 each... we chose to forgo AKC registration and signed off on the paperwork. If we were able to register dogs of this caliber with the AKC, we have to ask if these papers have any value. We were told that the father of these puppies was almost entirely white. Is purchasing a rescue puppy right? Heaven's NO! But saving a life is... Diane...it is all for the love of a sheepie 
http://www.hearttoheartoesrescue.org/Puppies.htm http://www.SecondChanceOESRescue.com |
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| What a wonderful thing they have done! How could anyone who calls themselves a dog lover put those sweet faces down? I'm sure they will all find great homes with people to love them. Every dog deserves that much. |
| They are all gorgeous! Gucci and I wished we lived closer...he is 9 months old today and I may be ready for another! I might need a little more time to forget the late nights and early mornings with a new sheepie baby though!
I'm sure that they will find homes fast...how could they not? Colleen and Gucci=>MOMMY...I want one! |
cassie'smomma wrote: Is purchasing a rescue puppy right? Heaven's NO!
But saving a life is... Absolutely correct. Bless 2nd Chance Rescue for their efforts on behalf of these beautiful babies!! |
| I give you so much respect for the job you've done. Please let us know how it goes with the puppies. If Hendrix was a bit older and our wedding was out of the way we'd go for one! |
| I think what you did was great. I essentially did the same thing for Clyde. I still beat myself up for paying a pet store but knowing that I'm giving him a great home and saved him from a life of possible neglect makes me feel good. Plus, he's turned out to be awesome!
They're all beautiful and absolutely sweet. If I could have another dog, I'd happily take one no matter what their appearance is! |
| This is wrong. it is the wrong way to do it. you may have saved 5 beautiful lives and the next time you may save 5 more but by putting money back into the breeders pocket you are keeping them in business or giving them funds to breed even more.
think about the future generations of dogs when you do this. most reputable rescue organizations refuse to do business this way and there is a reason. these are the same rescue organizations that dedicate their lives to saving dogs but refuse to do what your doing because they know that they cant save every dog. they cant save every dog but this way youll be spending huge sums of money and supporting the mills even if it is just a little bit. this is just wrong |
| Guest,
While I respect your opinion, you must also be respectful of others. Your message seems to me to be very harsh in tone and your points could be made more diplomatically. Please. This can/may become a controversial subject, and I ask everyone to please write as if you are talking to a neighbor who you don't know very well, sitting in their kitchen, sharing a cup of tea. Thanks. |
| Wow! A hard decision to make, but I think you made the right one. These puppies deserve a good life - no matter what their fur color is, how much fur they have or what size they are.
Good luck in finding them their forever homes. Jennifer, Baxter, Cassiopia and Sharkey |
| It's all about saving a sheepies life......
Rules are not carved in stone , and in this instance I support Kayes decision 100%...... . Because of her 5 dogs lives were saved.....why must they die to make a point ? Rescue is just that , rescue...and they were rescued !! Good work Kaye and to all others who wish to save dogs , and not get into the politics of it all ! I guess the people against this move want the dogs to be " dead right " , right along with their opinion....... [/b] |
| I think it was an awesome decision myself and I know that it was hard to make this decision. Should these poor puppies have to suffer a life of abuse or being pts just because the breeder wanted money for them? I don't believe any animal should have to suffer that. They are just like our two legged children, they did not ask to be born, it was a decision made beyond their control. We wouldn't dream of having a two legged child put to sleep just because of their hair color. Keep up the good work. |
| The puppies are beautiful...I actually like the fawn coloring..If you're not showing the dog, who cares? A sheepdog is a sheepdog. Good tempermants etc!! Thank you for what you're doing. Im proud to be included in such a group of wonderful caring people!! |
Anonymous wrote: This is wrong. it is the wrong way to do it. you may have saved 5 beautiful lives and the next time you may save 5 more but by putting money back into the breeders pocket you are keeping them in business or giving them funds to breed even more.
think about the future generations of dogs when you do this. most reputable rescue organizations refuse to do business this way and there is a reason. these are the same rescue organizations that dedicate their lives to saving dogs but refuse to do what your doing because they know that they cant save every dog. they cant save every dog but this way youll be spending huge sums of money and supporting the mills even if it is just a little bit. this is just wrong Of course every dog can't be saved, but if there's an opportunity to save a few that have a chance at a new life in a loving home, isn't it worth a few hundred dollars to save a life and give a new owner a loving pet and companion? This is not a normal practice for this rescue or others, but an act of kindness and compassion for a few puppies that deserve a chance. I think it's very sad that you would let those types of principles get in the way of saving lives. If you were in the same situation, would you have just walked away and let them be put down? Plus, you said yourself, if anything, it's only supporting the mills "a little bit." When you look at it from that perspective, I think it's even sadder that you'd choose not to save these animals, particularly when the few dollars that the mills would see pales in comparison to the happiness that the dog and a potential new owner could experience. There are other ways to stop mills and incompetent breeding than to deny innocent puppies a better chance at life. I certainly don't condone irresponsible breeding either but I also don't believe in letting animals be mistreated if there are other options. Good work, Kaye and all those involved. It's comforting to know that caring people like yourselves exist. Jill |
| Wow! It's been a long time since I've written... it should be 5Girls now!
I am the volunteer webmaster for the Second Chance OES Rescue site. I knew as I was preparing the pages for these pups that this would be very controversial to some people. Most rescues will not pay a penny for a rescue dog. I honestly respect this decision because as anyone in rescue knows, too much money goes into getting a dog ready to be adopted... money that is seldom ever recouped. And as everyone knows, the unfortunate truth is that every dog cannot be saved. Is it right to pay for a rescue? No. But is it right to cross that line on ocassion to save a life? From the Second Chance prospective, we chose life this time. The rescue had room, we we able to come up with the funds so this is what we chose to do... free-choice is what we are all entitled to and we each must live by our decisions. For just a moment, put yourself in the postion of a buyer going to one of these dreadful dog auctions. Would any of these puppies be appealing to you under the category OES? Would you pay to purchase any of these pups either for resale or for breeding purposes (what a horrid life)? You know that this is the purpose of these auctions. If you were purchasing for reseach, you might possibly pay a small amount after the auction for the rejects. BUT these are not rejects! They are living, breathing, feeling creatures. I know that some people do not feel that a dog that is less than perfect should be given a chance. One thing to remember is rescues are altered so they will never continue their line of less than perfect sheepies. We see their value as companion sheepies. Now for my personal opinion, again, you are entitled to yours too and I will respect it- I feel that a life is a life and euthanasia, a kind and humane death, is a gift you give an animal if it is suffering or shelters use when there is no hope of placing the numerous abandoned dogs left in their care often (but not always) by the ignorant, irresponsible and uncaring. I am personally owned by what people would call a less than perfect sheepie... no, it's not her coloring or lack of all that normal fluffy hair. When we first brought her home, one person was simply shocked by her appearance. At first it made me feel sad but then I quickly put it in prospective... she's a D-O-G (shhhh- don't tell her!) and other dogs treat her like one so what's the big deal? I am so glad that the breeder spent hours/days/weeks tube feeding this little girl... most would have put her down immediately because they couldn't sell her but the breeder saw her value as a companion and her will to live. Most people have no idea that she's blind and don't notice her hare-lip/nose deformity/cleft palate now because of all her hair unless they either get down on the ground with her or we tell them. She simply adores people, is a completely normal little wiggle-butt and she runs like the wind (I never knew that blind dogs run and I actually expected to spend my life leading this little girl around on a leash HA! What a laugh... she runs circles around us and our other dogs! If you ever encounter a blind dog as a rescue or blindness in your own pet, please give him/her a chance to acclimate to the new surroundings... it's utterly amazing what they can do). Again, it was a personal choice that some people will not agree with and I respect their feelings. Okay... enough of my jabbering. I guess we need to recognize that we all have our own opinions and we each offer something unique to any group. We need to voice our opinions yet respect our differences while working toward the common goal of saving sheepies in our own special way. This breed is simply the best... I think we can all agree on that. Sincerely, Jaclin My Furry Kids- Maggie, Meesha, Emma, Darby & Kaytee |
| sorry for my tone before. I will try to be more civil.
Giving them money for their low quality pups lets them charge less for their good dogs. if they cant produce good dogs for a low price they will go out of business. if they have to pay to have their non good dogs pts its the same thing. this is not the first time that kaye has become involved in rescuing dogs from a mill auction. i read on here and the list that they got money from another rescue company to pay for some really big vet bills to care for them. I'm not some heartless girl who wants to see puppies killed. I am trying to look at the big picture. some dogs are going to die. maybe it should be these innocent but sickly pups instead of some adults in a kill shelter somewhere, with a hope of eliminating breeders by money problems? the fewer breeders the higher the price causing fewer buyers. smaller market means fewer breeders. pretty soon it doesnt make sense to sell them in pet stores anymore. Its hard to walk away and to turn the other cheek but sometimes we just have too. Grannie Annie wrote: I am with you on the mixed emotions...BUTTTTT we really need to refrain from doing anything that just empties the crate so they can stick another dog there...and the worst of it is they use the $ they get from the sale of one to purchase others that are in their breeding prime...but you know all that, Kaye. I am repeating it for the Listers. |
Great Post Jaclin 
Anonymous Guest... You wrote Quote: I'm not some heartless girl who wants to see puppies killed. I am trying to look at the big picture. some dogs are going to die. maybe it should be these innocent but sickly pups instead of some adults in a kill shelter somewhere, with a hope of eliminating breeders by money problems?
Who ever said these pups were sickly? There is nothing in any of the post about the pups being sickly. Possible deafness and if that's the case I guess my ex-husband should have been put to sleep. |
| Hi everyone,
I need to jump in here. Not because things have gotten out of hand; I don't think that they have. Here's why: I'm on the fence on this issue. I have thought about this many times. I have debated the ins and the out with myself for years. Up until recently, I have always come down on the "don't buy dogs from auctions, period, end of story" side of things. But I hate that position. Recently when H2H rescued some dogs that were from an auction, they paid $25. I am not sure from the correspondence I received whether it was $25 per dog or $25 for all the dogs, but it really didn't matter to me. "How," I asked myself, "will $25 or even $125 possibly affect a puppy mill breeder? How can we not rescue these pups for such a nominal fee?" So here I am. Undecided. I REALLY want to hear all sides of this issue. Please post your views. Please post them anonymously if you must, by simply clicking on "Log out [ yourname ]" in the upper right hand of this page before you go to post. I'd really like to see a good hearty debate on this issue, and beg everyone to try to keep the emotions down so that the arguments on both sides can be weighed by the undecided, like me. THANK YOU! |
| I support the saving of the puppies. It doesn't say how much they paid for them but I suspect it wasn't enough to make the puppy mill any money. I am assuming they would have been destroyed had they not been purchased. In my opinion the greater good was accomplished by saving the puppies and finding good homes for them.
I guess I'm a little sensitive because had Tasker been a puppymill puppy (thank goodness he wasn't) he would have more than likely been destroyed because of "objectionable" characteristics. He came from a breeder who let me have him at a "discount" under the condition that I neuter and never breed hom. There are some breeders who would have also "put him down". These puppies did not ask to be born and it our responsibility to help, if we can, to provide good loving homes for them. I say YEAH KAYE |
| But wouldn't the puppy miller have to also pay to have the dog destroyed? Probably only $10 or $15 per dog, but still it's another expense, and it's on top of not having received the income frmo the auction.
And what about auction fees for animals that don't sell? Would they have to pay those, too? (I really don't know...) |
Tasker's Mom wrote: had Tasker been a puppymill puppy (thank goodness he wasn't) he would have more than likely been destroyed because of "objectionable" characteristics.
Like what?? He's so beautiful! Did they say what in particular was the issue? |
| I guess the obvious question that I failed to ask is
"How much did SecondChance pay for these dogs?" What if they paid $10 per dog. What if $500? Does it matter? Where's the line? At what point would they become a "good customer" as opposed to a "rescuer paying nominal fees?" Lots of questions, I have. |
| valerie- Tasker had fawn on his butt and his markings were not "correct" (he has white on his butt where the "saddle" is).
I don't think that what ever nominal fee the puppymill pays to have a dog destroyed would be a deterrent. If you have a litter of 10 puppies and 7 are sold for big money and 3 are destroyed, wouldn't they just consider that a business expense (and get a tax deduction)? But if the puppies are sold for a "nominal" amount (who knows wht that is or where the line is), the auction house takes a cut and the puppy mill makes no profit. It would not seem that the purchase of the puppies by the rescue group would have a very big impact on the puppy mill either way. But it certainly impacts the life of the puppy. Puppy mills need to be closed by legislation and by people refusing to buy puppies from pet stores not by just allowing undesirable puppies to be killed...... in my opinion. |
| I personally do not agree with buying puppies at auction....
I have worked with animal welfare societies etc for years, and was involved in a couple of operations to shut down mills. One of which I will never forget, the dispicable conditions, the stench of death and rot, the sounds of animals dying or barely living, quite miserably at that, in cages stacked upon each other. They live in their own filth, are not fed or watered properly, have no room to move, get pooped and peed on by whoever is in the cage above them. They have no love offered to them, and are only there to have babies, non stop, until they die, which does not take long in those conditions. If they don't produce, they are left to rot. They are full of parasites, and disease, neurotic in many cases from such poor breeding and awful conditions. It is the most horrible thing I have witnessed.... they had barels of bleach to throw dead or dying animals in, some cremate the remains, most just put them out with the trash. When people know how horrifying the conditions are for these poor animals, why would they even think a mill would be humane enough to euthanize? They don't from what I have seen. Knowing that, I would also have a very hard time just leaving those pups at an auction... because I believe they would suffer. However, in my opinion, more effort should be spent on improving laws, and ENFORCING them in the states where mills flourish. Shut them down, boycott them, disturb them, exploit them. Then you are saving every animal there, as well as preventing hundreds and thousands more from even being born. Write to your government, bother the heck out of them. It takes a lot to make changes, but it must be done, and if no one cares enough to do anything about it on a larger scale why would the government put out the effort? I can say I will not go to an auction and put money in the millers pockets, not even a dime. I cannot say that if I were at an auction that I would be able to walk away.... I did however go to a lot of effort to stop mills from happening in my own province. I can say with great pride there are now NO animal mill situations in our area at least. Our shelter now only usually has one or two cats, and often no dogs. Our spay and neuter programs are amazing, cheap vet clinics held a couple of times a year for anyone and everyone to have proper medical care for their pet, vaccines, and spay or neuter very cheap or even free. I would rather see my money go to programs like that than to buying puppies at an auction, no matter how unfortunate the circumstance, and yes, even knowing those pups may die. I would rather that then see any animal live the life of a mill dog. |
| Some people will criticize this rescue for "helping" a commercial breeder. They have the right to their opinions however from our prospective it's saving a life... period.
Most of these puppies NEVER would have been purchased at the Missouri dog auction had they gone. Hmmm...what happens to the ones that don't sell? You need to ask the auction house... likely, most of these sweet little faces would have been doomed. Often times being PTS is being drown in a bucket...cheaper that way 
As we say, Second Chance OES Rescue evaluates each case individually and this is the decision we made... popular or not. Diane...it is all for the love of a sheepie |
| Tasker's Mom- Good for you for choosing Tasker! And it was responsible of the breeder to make altering a necessity... it proves they were concerned with future dogs brought into this world. Kaytee's mom was spayed after the pups went to their new homes even though no other littermates nor previous litters had ever had these defects. With companion sheepies, it's not all about the wrapping, it's what's under all that fur that counts... the heart of the sheepie. You've a handsome boy. I'm sure you feel the same as me... life just wouldn't be complete without them.
I'm also sure you all wish I'd be quiet for another 6 months  After this post my screenname will probably hibernate again. So...
Several years ago, I went to the local zoo and we came across a bobcat that was straining and appeared to be in pain. My husband and I notified the zookeeper. He said she was in labor and that they were aware of this. A couple of days later I read in the newspaper that the mother had died. The zoo defended itself by saying that she was a wild animal and they allowed nature to takes it's course. In my opinion, once they took that animal out of the wild and into their custody and control, they HAD a responsibility to that big cat. By allowing her to suffer terribly and eventually die from something correctable was, what I still feel to this day, gross neglect and cruelty. What does this have to do with puppies or breeding stock from commercial breeders, puppymills, etc.? Once a life is in existence, we each have the choice to turn our backs on one in need and act like the zookeepers saying, "Let nature take it's course." or in this case, "Let the breeder suffer the financial loss." (And if this is your choice, it really is okay by me. I know they all can't be saved.) Or we can try to assist some of these pups who's lives lie in the balance when they happen to cross our paths. Is this the best way? No, the best way is to close down all breeders who don't live up to a standard of health with a sound genetic foundation, good temperament and some of the AKC "standards". UNTIL there is a better method of controlling the commercial breeders, puppymills, etc. there has to be some way to help those that are caught in the middle... the puppies and breeding adults. So the choices are ours to individually make... who we are is made up by what we've experienced in our lives which determines our viewpoint. There are no rules saying we all have to agree... there are no rules saying rescue can only be done in one certain way. This is a very terrible situation and I know we all agree on that. Why hasn't the AKC, being in the best position to handle this because they register these puppies, done anything meaningful to correct it? Kaytee could have been AKC registered... do these papers really mean anything other than they are "purebred"? No REALLY... please tell me... I just don't understand this. For me, doing something is much better than just talking about what should be done... we all know what needs to be done, it's just the slowness in fixing this problem has been so mind numbingly slow. The ban on pet stores IS having an effect and educating the buying public will also help. What is happening is not happening fast enough to protect the innocent victims of this. But again... this is just my personal opinion. If someone has the solution to this problem, please put it in action like in the state of Missouri and other well know mill states. A lot of puppies and adult "breeding stock" are either dying or living a sad, depressing or horrific quality of life while they wait for someone, anyone, to help them. Jaclin |
Willowsprite wrote: However, in my opinion, more effort should be spent on improving laws, and ENFORCING them in the states where mills flourish. Shut them down, boycott them, disturb them, exploit them. Then you are saving every animal there, as well as preventing hundreds and thousands more from even being born.
Write to your government, bother the heck out of them. It takes a lot to make changes, but it must be done, and if no one cares enough to do anything about it on a larger scale why would the government put out the effort? Willowsprite, I think you've hit the important point. None of us wants to see an innocent puppy suffer, or increase the profitability of mill breeders, which is why there is so much debate on this one. But we would all agree that the mill breeders should be put out of business. I'll admit that I knew nothing about this situation until I became a member of this website, and through all of you I've learned a lot. Now I bring it up in conversations with other people who are talking about getting puppies, just to be sure they understand the health risks of pet shop dogs. Being more proactive from a legislative perspective is a great idea. I think I'll go bother some elected officials... |
| 4Girls: please don't go into hibernation, without different opinions there is no point in "discussion". If we all believed and felt the same way there would be no point in forum's like this.
Sometimes I actually discover that my "opinion" isn't ALWAYS right |
| Ginny, that's the whole point. There is no right or wrong...just what you feel in your heart....I personally wouldnt care if Panda had part rabbit in her...she is mine, and I love what I have!! Tasker, in all his glory is a HOT dog...Panda would love to meet an older man
But seriously, it is the responsiblities of the pet purchaser to do research on where they get their pets(ie pet shops etc)...BUT, regarding rescue dogs, every dog deserves a chance!! I wish I were smarter and knew more than I did now...Not that I dont adore Pooh, but gosh, you look at all these oes rescues that need loving homes and you say...wow??!! Can I make a difference...sure you can....look at how many guests read these forums...I believe that they are using all this info TO make informative decisions...we cant save them all, but if we can help save one, it helps! I so admire Uncle Pete, Jil, and the others that help these rescues. I dont remember who said that the puppies didnt ask to be born (I dont know how to do the quote thingy) are so right!! I am NOT a soap box advocate, but in my heart, as I have gotten older, I think I have learned what is supposed to be right...at least I hope so...All pup's mixed, deaf, fawn colored, blind, less hair, etc...all need homes that will love them. I dont think I would have said that a year ago, but I really do believe it now! I think rescuing any dog counts!!! I dont really care why they had to be rescued....like I said in a previous post...a pet is a pet...Not a show dog..I guess another question we should all ask ourselves is....Why do we have sheepdogs as pets only, not for show purposes? Is it for the name only, or is it because we love the breed.....hence, my point....If they're not for show, who cares what they have or have not...lets just save the ones we can!!! (Do I make sense or am I just rambling?) |
| Wonderfully said Darcy |
| Move over Ron, I'm on the fence with you.........and I've done rescue for years. (and thankfully out of it because of situations such as this) .
Heart to Heart, now Second Chance is a different type rescue. They do what more traditional breed rescues don't........they take in the rejects. And how are they received in the sheepdog rescue community.......like trash. Oh the bitching I've heard about Kaye and her fellow rescuers! As long as puppy millers exist, they will treat dogs as a commodity to be produced, sold or destroyed. There's no love for a breed, no interest in improving the breed, just in producing something. Perhaps the rejects left unsold might have caused the breeder to stop breeding the adult dogs, but they would have been replaced, of that I have no doubt. Trying to stop them is useless as long as there's a demand for their product. In this situation I'm not sure I wouldn't have done exactly the same as Second Chance. Let's hope these pups don't have more serious problems than just mismarked and unsocialized. |
| Hi,
What an emotional topic and one that pulls at the heartstrings. I do see both sides of the issues and understand what Guest may be saying. I also understand why the pups were saved. When I volunteered for the Humane Society as a foster mom, I often went into the back where the public doesn't have access. This is just when I was fostering Asia (now known as Mama Kat) to test if she was postive for Feline Leukemia before I could bring her home. I overheard the director telling the staff there was only 18 hundred dollars left in the budget and yet the pens with the sickly animals were full. This didn't include those up front which the public could see. One was a tiny dog with a broken leg whom was going to take up most of the budget if they decided to fix him. There were several cats that had been injured by cars and other animals with a series of medical issues. The choice had to be made on how and who the money was spent on. I felt sick that I even saw what occurred behind the scenes. The shelter also paid for Asia's spaying, which as her foster mom I was going to take care of when she was to be in my home for 2 wks. This was in order to get her spayed, give her some one on one time to recoup and perhaps make her more sociable as she was stressed at the shelter and was losing her hair. Turns out Asia was discovered to be aged 7 and not 1 years old like they originally thought...and she had bad teeth. When I informed them..they immediately deemed her unadoptable and said she needed to be put down, as there were many healthier animals that needed homes and they couldn't afford to spend any more money on her. It's why I see and do understand both sides of the issue. I did understand that the choice they made was based on logic, where my choice was based on emotion. Spending the cash on Asia ..one cat out of the many that needed assistance seemed not fair to those others ..the little dog with the broken leg or the other sickly ones. However emotionally I couldn't let that happen as she had now been in my home for 2 wks. I ended up adopting her...and eventually paying over 700 for her dental work. I have mixed emotions as that amount of money took me over a year to save, and could have helped many others instead. It's why it's such a heart rendering choice as I know we can't save them all. Yet , how can we turn our back on those that steal our hearts? Returning her after I had taken care of her knowing she had a death sentence. I just couldn't do it. Yet, I've experienced guilt too knowing that some of those animals I viewed ..what happened to them? Could my money have saved a couple instead of one? It's too horrible to think about and it does make one feel like they are playing God without meaning to, as to who gets a chance. I realize that even rescue groups that dislike having to pay the money which in turn may go to a puppy mill seems almost like giving money to the enemy. Yet, how can one not become emotionally involved and want to save the ones that they see? Like those little pups in a pet store? We know we shouldn't purchase them..know we are supporting puppy mills ..yet so difficult to turn our backs on those living creatures. If we saw the mothers whose lives are a source of continual pain at the puppy mills perhaps we could then be more determined not to give in and purchase the pups. The trouble is most people aren't even aware of the existance of puppy mills. I do understand both sides of this issue and understand each person's position. I don't have the answers as to what I would have done in that situation..I'm guessing against logic and would have gone with emotion, as I did in Asia's case. The positive that I see occuring here is that although there is differences of opinion..we ALL have agreed that puppy mills need to be shut down. Now what can we do to achieve this..lets work together! Marianne and the boys |
| I joined this group several months ago but haven't posted. Since I am the "notorious" Kaye, I needed to get in on this one.
I did want to comment on the one posters remark about being involved before purchasing dogs from the Missouri dog auction. What happened was....an all breed rescue in SW Missouri goes to the dog auction and tries to save as many as they can. They get the older Babies in which the breeders are not interested. THEY paid $25.00 each for 3 of the 4 girls. Mo Molly was FREE. The comment the man at the auction said was " take this one too or she goes to the bone barrel. Rumba, Tango and Cha Cha were from one commercial breeder in Arkansas. They were in very good shape. That rescue group saved or "bought" 27 dogs of different breeds that day. They then starting contacting breed rescues to see if they could help. Now, to the 5 little Babies from the commercial breeder in Missouri. There was a go between involved in this. One of our rescue angles in SW Missouri had heard about this breeder and what she was getting ready to do with these Babies. She called me at 6:00 Friday evening and I left for Missouri Saturday morning. Knowing if we didn't get them they would be KILLED. We met the woman and her husband in a Wal-Mart parking lot in Springfied. I saw an old women and her husband who had had a stroke trying to make a living. They look at what they do for a living as no different then raising cattle, chickens and taking them to market. We Animal Lovers do look at it differently. I gave the women the money and put the babies in the truck and left. I don't do rescue to judge people. I rescue to save as many Babies as we can. I don't have the emotional energy to set and rant and rave about how can these people do this. I try very hard not to deal with the human issue of rescue. As long as the State of Missouri encourages this CASH CROP activity then it will continue. All we did was save 5 Babies from being killed. I would do it agian in a HEARTBEAT!!!!!! We are a different rescue group. We work on the fringes of rescue. We don't belong to any clubs. Because we don't go by a set of rules. Each situation is different. This is not to make any other rescue organization look bad. Each rescue works differently. That is OK. I personally think open discussion is very Healthy. How can you learn anything if you don't ask questions.? If we all had an open mind about things and not just automatically condemn someone before getting the facts. There is nothing wrong agreeing to disagree. I wish that more people could do that. Sheepie Hugs, Kaye |
| Kaye, your post brought tears to my eyes and gave me goose bumps. God Bless you. I am pretty ignorant of the situation involving puppy mills and pet stores and have only recently begun to learn about the horror of the industry. I cannot imagine how anyone who has ever been loved by a four legged creature could NOT have done as you did. In my eyes you are a HERO.
I still believe that legislation and refusal to purchase puppies from pet stores will do more to curb this industry than anything else. It is the law of supply and demand. If people are educated and refuse to purchase puppymill puppies it will not be a profitable business and puppymills will close. You cannot imagine how many people I talk to who have no idea where pet store puppies come from ( I didn't). Thank you for the work you do. |
| I too, had no idea of the truly horrible conditions of puppy mills until I joined this forum. I was also not aware of the damage that "backyard breeders" could do to the integrity of the breed (any breed). When I say integrity I mean socialization skills, medical issues and aggression. I am truly glad to have found this forum, and I too talk to other people about the damage that puppy mills are having on all breeds of dogs. We are fairly blessed in Alabama, I believe. I have heard of very few puppy mills. Is there any way to research and find if there are puppy mills in my area. Can someone give suggestions as to how we can be come proactive instead of reactive to help close these? It would appear that our Government may not be as eager for this to happen as the animal lovers on this forum. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated. |
Shug wrote: We met the woman and her husband in a Wal-Mart parking lot in Springfied. I saw an old women and her husband who had had a stroke trying to make a living. They look at what they do for a living as no different then raising cattle, chickens and taking them to market. We Animal Lovers do look at it differently. I gave the women the money and put the babies in the truck and left. I just have to ask: How much money was it to save these 5 little angels? |
| Ron. We paid $50 each for the Babies. For another $50 the women would have given me AKC papers on them. Sheepie Hugs, Kaye |
| It is easy to make the emotional choice and save the dogs and it makes you feel good too. It is very difficult making the logical choice derived from the fact that if you give one penny to the mills you have become part of the problem. If the money meant so little to them, why did they go through the effort to auction them?
What case by case measure can we use to determine when to cross the line, how we feel emotionally about each case? The puppy mills are a true horror run by vile people. I will not be celebrating the purchasing of these dogs with all of you. A different un-named Poster. |
| I think that it is much easier to speak in theory about not paying to rescue a sheepie than actually doing it. My puppy came from a Missouri puppy mill. She is a beautiful puppy but 100 percent deaf. I had the option of either sending her back (where I feared that she'd be bred or put to sleep) or keeping her but not getting a full refund. In the end, I would up paying $400 for her, a portion of which went to the mill, but I have no regrets. Francesca is the friendliest, happiest dog I have ever known. She's the most popular dog in the neighborhood and a loyal companion to me. Despite her deafness, she is extremely obedient and we often forget that she is deaf. Maybe that mill will be in business longer because of the money that I paid but I don't care because I have a beautiful furry puppy who is crazy about my family and most of all about me. |
| I will not ever knowingly become a customer of a puppy mill. I will never knowingly have any type of business relationship with one. These are not theories but rather a set of principles. You might think it cold for me to hold these principles above the dogs’ lives, but I cannot think of any reason why I would abandon them |
| I respect your opinion about puppymills and the not supporting them. I have been involved in busting puppymills. Worked with the adult dogs trying to save as many as we could. Many had to be PTS. Many of the puppies had to be PTS. Then to have the Judge give THEM back to the breeder with a small fine and a slap on the hand. I wasn't doing rescue on the level I am now. I thought I knew something about puppymills. I didn't know anything. I didn't understand how large the problem really was. I didn't know about puppy brokers. I didn't know then that some of these puppy brokers have webpages and represent themselves as responsible breeders. They don't even own and OES let alone breed them. They buy puppies from puppymills and commercial breeders to fill the orders. I didn't know about the Amish in Penn and Indiana breeding dogs as a Cash Crop. There was a lot I didn't know. Things are changing and changing fast. With Hunte stepping into the picture with their multi million dollar facilities in Missouri and Woof & Co pet stores. The leak in the dam has turned into a the flood gates are open. Hunte has organized the puppymillers. They now have power and protection. Did you know that it is a FELONY to take pictures of a commercial breeders facility in Missouri? Missouri just passed new laws protecting these breeders. So it is a little past saving a few dogs or puppies. Respectfully, Kaye |
| Sorry but what is PTS? |
| Put to sleep. |
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Geez Louise... I said I wasn't going to post again for 6 months... guess I'd better hold off on that statement. 
I ran across this website yesterday of a group that rescues Bichon's from mills in Missouri. Is it right? Who knows but it sounds like they have made progress with the breed that has captured their hearts... just interesting reading on why they do it. http://www.smallpawsrescue.org/pup3/reason.htm So again I say, what do we do in the meantime? More food for thought about overpopulation from The Humane Society of the United States (hsus.org) website. Makes me sick to think what we're up against. Average number of litters a fertile dog can produce in one year: 2 Average number of puppies in a canine litter: 6-10 In six years, one female dog and her offspring can theoretically produce 67,000 dogs. Three of the adult girls the rescue got from a Missouri dog auction were breeding females... Rumba, Cha-Cha! & Tango. How may puppies and future breeding adults did this eliminate from the breeding population because they were pulled by an all-breed rescue, taken by H2H and spayed? Wishing there was simply one right solution to this problem. Jaci |
| How can you preach the evils of doing buisness with puppy mills when you do it yourself? We must stick together and refuse to be any part of it.
By purchasing the dogs, you cross the line between being rescue and clearing house for un-wanted mill puppies. They appriciate your buisness, that alone should raise a flag. By purchasing dogs from the backyard breeder, you have performed a great service for them. They probably do have issues with destroying the dogs and you have freed them from that and they got some cash as well. I am certain they will give you a call to despose of the next litter un-wanted dog. Do you really want to perpetuate this? How does this help the rescue cause? This and the lack of a 501C3 certificate have put Second Chance on the fring, not some political adjenda. The other rescues see this as an attack on all they stand for. If we all say that we will not do buisness with puppy mills, they will go away. Second Chance can no longer say this with conviction. |
Quote: This and the lack of a 501C3 certificate have put Second Chance on the fring, not some political adjenda. The other rescues see this as an attack on all they stand for. Quote: If we all say that we will not do buisness with puppy mills, they will go away. Second Chance can no longer say this with conviction.
I'm sorry But I don't quite understnd what you are trying to say. We were just incorporated the 5th of July. We have just filed for our 501c3. What that has to do with anything pertaining to the discussion I do not know. I am not asking for money from anyone to help with these 5 Babies. We have never gathered our money and gone to an auction to BUY dogs. As for the last statement: "If we all say that we will not do business with puppymills, they will go away", Go away where? I am not responsible for what other rescue do or do not do. I am only responsible for what this org does. If saving 5 Babies from death makes us an outcast then so be it. Respectfully, Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| I don't post to groups or forum because I am a very busy old wowen. I don't have time to read emails or even respond most of the time. I will say this one last comment and then I'm out of here. Problems can only be solved if there is open dialoge. If good could come out of this discussion that would have been great. If one person would have looked at what is going on with the puppymills and Hunte Corp. then it was worth while. I will not be involved in a back and forth banther of defending what we do.. Kaye, Second Chance OES Rescue[quote][/quote] |
| Below is a story copied from the smallpaws rescue site which 5girls posted. It is funny that I should run across this story because almost from the start of this post this very story has been running through my head. It is very rare in life that a person is able to make a huge difference in the world, the Mother Theresa's, Ghandi's and Martin Luther King's are few and far between.
"Once a man was walking along a beach. The sun was shining and it was a beautiful day. Off in the distance he could see a person going back and forth between the surf's edge and and the beach. Back and forth this person went. As the man approached he could see that there were hundreds of starfish stranded on the sand as the result of the natural action of the tide. The man was stuck by the the apparent futility of the task. There were far too many starfish. Many of them were sure to perish. As he approached the person continued the task of picking up starfish one by one and throwing them into the surf. As he came up to the person he said, "You must be crazy. There are thousands of miles of beach covered with starfish. You can't possibly make a difference." The person looked at the man. He then stooped down and pick up one more starfish and threw it back into the ocean. He turned back to the man and said, "It sure made a difference to that one!" It's the little things that often count the most, I am a nurse. I don't get the opportunity to save a life every day. But everyday I do have the opportunity to make another person's day just a little bit better with a kind word or moment of encouragement. I can only hope that the cumulative value of those little things will translate into a life well lived. We are all in agreement here on the major points of the issue. Puppy Mills are BAD and should be outlawed. But we must each listen to our own conscious and belief system when it comes to responding to the individual situations we are faced with. We are each called to respond in ways that are as individual as we are. "Guest" responds in the way that he/she feels best espress's their priorities and beliefs. Kaye or second chance rescue or anyone else responds in the way that they feel called to respond. It is never wrong to take an action that results in making life a little better whether it is for one person or one hundred, one puppy or a thousand. What is wrong is criticizng another person for their effort to "throw a starfish back". |
| I have nothing but respect for people like Kaye, who devote themselves to saving lives. Would a Dr say, "Well this person is from a bad area so we shouldn't save their life"... NO! It doesn't matter where anyone is from...just like it shouldn't matter where the dog is from. These dogs were born and didn't ask to be ...at least they can have a rewarding lives now.
Kaye is saving lives and I truly respect that!!!! Also I am sure there is nothing more rewarding than what she does. I am also very embarrassed about the people here on the forum that are attacking her for what she has done. Everyone should have respect for other peoples decisions, even if they don't agree with them. Elissa |
| Great analogy Ginny!!
You couldnt have said it better, Elissa! |
| I respect your choice to not pay a penny to assist a puppymill dog. I don't want to change the foundation of anyone's fundamental beliefs... that's not right. The important thing is that you are doing something to correct the situation. Turning our backs and doing nothing or "If you ignore the problem, it will go away" has not worked. It's simply not an active stance.
For the Last Guest Poster- "How can you preach the evils of doing buisness with puppy mills when you do it yourself?" If this was directed at me I'm very sorry if I came across as preaching... not my intent. I am simply so darn passionate about saving this wonderful breed. Hence, no anonymous posting from me. I'm open to different views... give me some proof your way is working efficiently. What about the Hunte project in Missouri... what if we can't close them down? You have the opportunity to change some views here. By the way, do you assist a rescue and which one? I've financially assisted other OES rescue groups over the past year too... one other membership, donation for hw+ dogs treatment, transportation of dog. I'm pretty green in OES rescue and would really like to know which rescues stand for what. Hmmm. How do you know that a dog currently at a shelter or in need of assistance wasn't a puppymill dog to start with? Wow... we could go round and round with that one. Yeah! to Francescasmom. Some people have the misconception that all mill/commercially bred puppies are doomed to be unacceptable/worthless pets. Not true is it. By the way, we were going to adopt a deaf sheepie from a shelter last year but were mistakenly informed by our trainer that we were at the limit for our county. He did go to a great home and his mom and I talk periodically. The book Living With a Deaf Dog sound familiar? I read and highlighted throughout this book in yellow marker. I thought it was great... it and his blinking tag went to his new family. They utterly adore him.
Tasker's Mom- How beautifully worded about making someone's day a little better... I can tell it comes from the heart. I like that starfish story too I understood the "concept" but never heard the story until I visited that site.
What we've experienced makes up our viewpoint. In my life I had always taken someone else's unwanted pets be it dogs, cats, rabbits (until it came to my very first full-sheepies). I was in wildlife rescue off and on for decades because too many people chose to ignore the problem... never bothered by little creatures dying by the side road... happy to drive by, never stopping to assist. No help from the DNR at that time. I witnessed too much indifference. So I assist the band of Second Chance misfits and actually enjoy being on the fringe because there are no rules stating that we can't save one just because of it's age, pedigree, health, origin of birth, etc. People can condemn Second Chance... it's okay. There will always be naysayers. Each rescue has their own way of helping sheepies in need and ALL are important in assisting sheepies in need. Second Chance can't save them all but the group will continue to save the lives of some of the dogs that others won't. It's simply the foundation of Second Chance. Well, darn... way too long again. Ouch. Back to work for me... too much talking, not enough doing. See ya in 6 months! Jaci |
| Don't these dogs at auction deserve a chance? Aren't they all equal regardless of their place of whelping? Would a rescue discriminate against a dog born on the street of New York rather than in a nice whelping box in someone's bedroom?
The key issue is not the source of the dog. Ultimately, the vast majority of dogs in the rescue programs where born at a puppy mill or by a back yard breeder; it's just that they were purchased by retail customers befoer being placed for adoption. So technically, helping those dogs has helped the puppy millers much more than buying a dog for $25 at auction. Again, the key issue is not the source of the dog. The key is the avoidance of furtherance of puppy milling. I haven't seen a disagreement on this issue. So, is it just a question of price? If we all knew that the puppy mills didn't get a cent from these auction dogs, with few exceptions I think that we'd be in agreement that we'd take in and place these dogs. So what's the price limit for saving a puppy while not rewarding the miller? If we, as a community, set a firm, set-in-stone price cap for what we are willing to pay for an unwanted dog, would that help? (Would that be legal???) Another dilemma: If the rescue community begins to purchase dogs in quantity at these auctions will the price rise? If the price rises, will it rise to the point of financial incentive? {I think about the factory outlet stores that have become so popular in the last 20 years. Before then, a factory outlet store was a place where a factory sent its rejects to try recoup their losses on the product. Prices were cheap, products ranged from ok to horrible with defects that ranged from merely obviously cosmetic to making the product non-functional. When they saw the market for "reduced middleman" outlets manufacturers began to build more stores than for which they had defects. They raised the prices in the stores and started to ship products with "imagined defects". Eventually they started selling first quality merchandise at just-slightly-less-than-retail prices, along with an occasional defect.} I don't know how much these millers are paid for their dogs that go through the "normal" channels and wind up on pet store shelves. I'll bet it's not a whole lot of money for most breeds. What if these millers asked for $100 per dog? $150? $300? What's the limit? I can't find an answer. Maybe there is no answer from this end of the business. Maybe the only answer is for anti-cruely laws requiring much better accommodations and larger penalties. How and who will enforce those objectively? If that's even possible. I guess I'll just have to leave it up to Kaye and well intentioned people to make the choice of whether or not their payment is revenue neutral to the breeder, or if they just can't bear the thought of this poor puppy being put down. Life is unfair. |
| Ron,
I think you missed the point. They key issue is your relationship with puppy millers and not the dog or the amount. Purchasing the dogs from them makes you part of thier buisness. A well intentioned buisness, but part of it none the less. I hope some of those in this forum will reconsider what it means to do buisness with the millers. It is a no win situation. What if that $200 the backyard breeder recieved is used to buy anouther kennel increasing thier yield. Don't expect them to use your money in good ways. Can anyone honesly say that the puppies lives are worth more than the potential future harm that millers will do with the money? An earlier post mentoned about starfish, why mess with the ones that potentially can mean more dogs are harmed when there are so many other dogs in need that do not don't? Regards, Bill |
| Ron said : Quote: So, is it just a question of price? If we all knew that the puppy mills didn't get a cent from these auction dogs, with few exceptions I think that we'd be in agreement that we'd take in and place these dogs. So what's the price limit for saving a puppy while not rewarding the miller? If we, as a community, set a firm, set-in-stone price cap for what we are willing to pay for an unwanted dog, would that help? (Would that be legal???)
I don't think anyone would be able to set a price, since each situation varies etc... however in my opinion it's not really about the money as much as it is emptying a cage for another dog to take it's place and live as a mill dog.... or if not emptying a cage, it is "getting rid of" whatever pups are there, which leads to more pups being born.... supply and demand, regardless if that demand is artificial through rescue, or someone who just couldn't leave a puppy or two, or a dozen, there. I know I couldn't just leave them there... and if I had 150, or 300, or whatever in my pocket, then I guess as much as I had would be as much as I would give. Good thing I don't go.... I'd be broke. |
Pepsi's Mommy wrote: I have nothing but respect for people like Kaye, who devote themselves to saving lives. Would a Dr say, "Well this person is from a bad area so we shouldn't save their life"... NO! It doesn't matter where anyone is from...just like it shouldn't matter where the dog is from. These dogs were born and didn't ask to be ...at least they can have a rewarding lives now.
Kaye is saving lives and I truly respect that!!!! Also I am sure there is nothing more rewarding than what she does. I am also very embarrassed about the people here on the forum that are attacking her for what she has done. Everyone should have respect for other peoples decisions, even if they don't agree with them. Elissa I don't think anyone is attacking anyone.... I think this discussion has been handled quite well, and with respect and civility. A different opinion is not an attack of someone else's.... |
| Stacey,
I could be wrong but what "Guest" wrote seemed like a personal attack on Kaye and Second Chance. At least it seemed that way to me. Really what does this below have anything to do with what was being discussed? Quote: This and the lack of a 501C3 certificate Elissa |
Willowsprite wrote: it is emptying a cage for another dog to take it's place and live as a mill dog.... or if not emptying a cage, it is "getting rid of" whatever pups are there As far as "emptying a cage" I'm not so sure about that. They'll empty the crate of undersireable dogs one way or another. If it's not sold, it will be destroyed. I feel it's a red herring in the argument.Asta wrote: I think you missed the point. I'm not sure that's the case.
They key issue is your relationship with puppy millers and not the dog or the amount. Purchasing the dogs from them makes you part of thier buisness. A well intentioned buisness, but part of it none the less. Sure, there's a hypothetical discussion going on here about how much benefit there is to a breeder from $25 or $50 per dog. I doubt there's any profit at that level. If we want to start talking about hypotheticals, then if CustomerA buys a dog from a mill for $750, then decides this dog is ill and can't be kept, and a rescue comes along and pays for the medical treatment of that dog and them rehomes that dog... How is that substantially different than BrokerB buys the dog from the miller for $50, and turns around and sells it to rescue for $50, who then pays for medical care and rehomes the dog?.... except in the case that's "OK", the puppy mill got $750. There may be some high-falutin semantical principle that the money didn't pass directly from rescue to miller, but in actuality the money doesn't usually pass directly, it usually goes through a broker. Also, any kind of "well, rescue shouldn't be purchasing dogs" argument falls flat. I've personally been involved in a rescue where someone purchased the dog from the owner (who bought the dog retail) in order to get the dog out of the situation. Here's what *I* think: The real point is NOT "I refuse to do business with a puppy miller", the real point IS "How can we save dogs from suffering, how can we have the smallest number of dogs suffering, both now and in the future" I am not a "hypothetical" guy. I don't see a good solution in any of this. I don't KNOW if buying a dog from an auction for $25 is a good thing or a bad thing in the Grand Scheme. It's like the economy: There is no central control and there are just so many moving parts it's hard to understand what the ramification of any move would be. Who is to say that if every breeder got an extra $10,000 check in the mail from the governmnet that some of them wouldn't improve ttheir facilities to make things nicer? Who is to say that an extra $250 doesn't buy some decent food for the dogs? I guess I'm cursed in that I just don't see things as "black and white" anymore. |
Pepsi's Mommy wrote: Stacey, Actually, that's just a fact. H2H never had a 501(c)(3) and -so far, as far as I know- SC doesn't have one yet. I hope Kaye gets one soon!
I could be wrong but what "Guest" wrote seemed like a personal attack on Kaye and Second Chance. At least it seemed that way to me. Really what does this below have anything to do with what was being discussed? Quote: This and the lack of a 501C3 certificate Elissa I agree that particular post was a little strong. The part that seemed to me to be most over the top was the rest of that line claiming that Second Chance was on the fringe. Sorry about that, Kaye. I think that was uncalled for by Guest. We've done great so far everyone (including Guests!). This is just unbelievably super on such an emotional issue. I'm learning a lot, and the different ideas I'm reading are really helping me to think in different directions. Thank you. |
| Elissa,
I don't think you're wrong. Though I wouldn't call it an attack, rather than just sharing an opposite opinion, it appears that some people are trying to actually cast Kaye and all in a negative light on top of telling why they feel the way they do on the issue. I think opinions are fine but I don't think it's fair to become accusatory or to try to make the rescue look bad. They did what they felt was right as much as anyone else would. Jill BTW, I started doing some reading on this and found this rationale from a Pug rescue Web site. Similar to what's already been said but a little more food for thought: There are two schools of thought to this, either allow them to be sold to other mills and breeders or rescue them. Our organization believes that it is more important to free these babies than to be concerned with the profit issue of the mills. Allowing them to be sold from one mill to another supports the profit motives of the mills, and the dogs continue to suffer. Rescuing them and providing clean loving homes does support the profit motives of the mills. If we do not rescue these Pugs, they will be sold to another mill, and they will continue to live in cramped, crude and filthy conditions and continue to be subjected to the torment and torture. Either way the mill profits. Our way the Pugs no longer suffer and are loved forever. |
Asta wrote: An earlier post mentoned about starfish, why mess with the ones that potentially can mean more dogs are harmed when there are so many other dogs in need that do not don't? You missed the point of the story. The starfish on the beach, or the puppy mill puppy at the auction is the one in front of you in need of help. I may not be able to save the masses but I can help the individual. Quote: quote Ron: "Here's what *I* think: The real point is NOT "I refuse to do business with a puppy miller", the real point IS "How can we save dogs from suffering, how can we have the smallest number of dogs suffering, both now and in the future" That is the point of the starfish story!Quote: Ron: The key issue is not the source of the dog. Ultimately, the vast majority of dogs in the rescue programs where born at a puppy mill or by a back yard breeder; it's just that they were purchased by retail customers befoer being placed for adoption. So technically, helping those dogs has helped the puppy millers much more than buying a dog for $25 at auction.
ABSOLUTELY: In "Asta's" philosophy you would have to determine the source of every rescue dog before rescuing him because to rescue a Puppy Mill dog would be to indirectly support the Mill. Puppy Mills are in business to make more than the $25 or 50 dollar price of an auction or rescue puppy. If that was the price their puppies sold for they would not stay in business. If we focus our efforts on decreasing the demand for puppy mill puppies that will do far more to curb the business than allowing the rejected dogs to die. People should be educated about where the Pet stores get there dogs. Until this forum I DIDN'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!! Don't by even so much as a dog bisquit at a Pet Store that sells PM puppies. There should be a public list off all of Hunte's customers and anyone affialiated with a business promoting PM's should be boycotted. If companyh A is owned by company B and company A sells PMP's we shouldn't be supporting company B either. WHERE IS THIS INFORMATION????? |
Asta wrote: I think you missed the point. The key issue is your relationship with puppy millers and not the dog or the amount. Purchasing the dogs from them makes you part of their business. A well intentioned business, but part of it none the less. Ron wrote: I'm not sure that's the case. Sure, there's a hypothetical discussion going on here about how much benefit there is to a breeder from $25 or $50 per dog. I doubt there's any profit at that level. Should we be bargaining with Debbie’s Petlands for older dogs at risk? Are there so few dog (starfish) that need help that we need to purchase them? (the last question is not rhetorical, I really don't know) I did not object to getting the dog free from any source. I'd love to see the mill dogs rescued. I said doing buisness with the puppy mills is not good. Has anyone in this thread really objected to the source of the dogs and not just the method? The thread did start with: cassie'smomma wrote: Is purchasing a rescue puppy right? Heaven's NO!
She clearly say she knows it is wrong. Call me lazy, but if she can explain why it is wrong in general, it will make it much easier explain why it would be wrong in a specific case 
 Anyway to get a spell checker for the forum?
Regards, Bill |
Asta wrote: I did not object to getting the dog free from any source. I'd love to see the mill dogs rescued. I said doing buisness with the puppy mills is not good. Great! Then the only issue *is* price! Because, I believe it's probably not *good* to give money to the mills, but at some point I have to wonder when the *good* of saving the one dog outweighs the *bad* of giving money to the mills.OK, so we're in agreement that if the dog is free, it's be ok to rescue it. What if it was $1? What if it was $1000? Can we get to agreement that somewhere between $1 and $1000 is a point where the amount is so nominal that it just does not matter in ANY practical way that we're doing business with a mill? What if it was exactly the cost of transporting the dog to the auction plus the auction fees? I don't want to be so stuck on my principles that animals are suffering needlessly. If the price were $1000, then I guess they'd be sufferring purposefully, as I wouldn't be giving a substantial amount of money to the mill. I have to say this: Up until I found out that the amount paid for Cha-Cha, Tango and Rumba was $25, I was DEAD SET AGAINST sending ANY money to a mill. When I found out the amount was so small, it started me t' thinkin'. Asta wrote: Anyway to get a spell checker for the forum?
If you find one that won't negatively effect my installation of the forum, I will certainly look into it. I haven't seen one yet, but I haven't been looking very dilligently. A good non-java chatroom, too, if you see one. (so far ARSC, phpMyChat and parachat are no good). |
| Okay... I've scolded Cassie's Mom for plagiarizing This was my comment on the website and I'll take the ramifications for it... so unfortunately it means I must post again (I'm really do avoid lying at all costs... honest!). This is why I originally said this...
Enough money goes into getting a rescue dog ready for adoption... additional fees are not appreciated when you take on a responsibility like this. If you're in rescue, you know that you seldom recoup the amount that actually goes into a rescue dog. I've funded numerous rescues and assisted some shelters from north to south over the past year and know how much it can cost. HOWEVER, this is not the prefect little world where everything fits nice and neatly into specific little boxes. When it was a matter of- a dog auction or $50 a pup to keep them out of it- that happened to cross the rescue's path, Second Chance choose to go outside the box. They chose to give these 5 pups a chance at a good life and I support this decision. There will always be two views on this stance and that's okay. Can you save all of them... no, unfortunately we all know that. Is purchasing a rescue puppy right? Heaven's no... but saving a life is. That was the complete statement. It was worded that way because I personally knew there would be others that were going to jump all over this one for doing it. And hey, Second Chance was honest, upfront and told the truth. I suppose the group could have lied and no one ever would have known the difference. Now there's an idea I didn't think about! Nah... we'll stick with the truth. Lies always have a way of coming back to bite you when you least expect it. I hope this helps explain the statement. Such a difficult problem, so few answers. Jaci PS- I'm not even going to say it anymore... you all know what it is. |
Ron wrote: What if it was $1?
What if it was $1000? What is wrong with $0. If you go to the ASPCA web site, they will say that the most effective methods of dealing with puppy mills are not legislation but consumer boycoting. Whenever a campain is launched, millers and brokers go out of buisness. Ron, it is more than a dollar amount difference we are talking about in our views. I do not think we can promote the most effective solution against the puppy millers as advocates of doing business with the them, even if it is for a good cause. JMHO and my last words on the subject. Regards, Bill |
| An organization such as the ASPCA must look at the larger issue... and it's only their opinion, which certainly could be right in some circumstances and wrong in others.
We're talking about our breed where there were about 150 registrations last year. The market is very small, but is quite spread. If you can figure a way to sort through 300 million people, identify the ones who might be buying OES at a pet store, and target them for an informational campaign to attempt to put the handful of millers who deal in this breed out of business.... goood luck! I'm right with ya! Maybe if this thread, or some pages a little bit more well laid out could target people who are going to buy dogs at a mill, maybe that would have an impact.... but I doubt it. Dogs are an impulse buy in pet stores at the retail level. We'd have to get pet store owners to decide to give up selling dogs altogether, or give up selling OES specifically. What chance do such a small group of OES owners have to find and boycott the sotres all across this huge country? About none. If the Goldens or the Geryhound people got together to do that, maybe there'd be a chance. I don't think you've seen the posts here, Bill from people who come in and say"What do you think about this breeder" and they're given good info about the breeder, and reasons why they ought to go through Tarja Peters and OESCA's Referral program, and their next post is "Thanks! I just got a great dog from the breeder", clearly not registering what had been written. Sorry to say that education by such a small group as we are is not going to do the trick. We are just playing at the margins, and I'm thinking if we can steal a couple of these mill dogs for short money and make a difference to them, well then we're one up on the system. You DO know that NEOESR paid for about $475 in medical expenses for dogs bought at auction, right? They weren't actually bought by the OES rescue, they were bought by another rescue and then given to the OES rescue. |
| Ron,
I know I said that was my last on this but this is the really last. The ASPCA based their opinion on their own statistics nationwide. Why do you dismiss them so easily? I think thee are two separate issue here. Rescuing OESs and closing down puppy mills. Obviously you are not going to shut down the mills by boycotting a single breed. Did I suggest that? We have to do that collectively, I thought it was a common goal of all rescue. I don’t approve of NEOESR buying any dogs. Ron wrote: I don't think you've seen the posts here, Bill from people who come in and say"What do you think about this breeder" and they're given good info about the breeder, and reasons why they ought to go through Tarja Peters and OESCA's Referral program, and their next post is "Thanks! I just got a great dog from the breeder"
I did not mean to offend you. I have not knowing insulted your forum? I don’t think the conversion heading in a good direction anymore and you don't seem to be enjoying it very much. I resign - Bill |
| No need to resign, or feel like your losing something or anything, Bill. I also didn't see the conversation going the wrong way.
I am undecided on the issue... I'm putting forth my thoughts about it, and some of the reasoning that goes into the issue. I'm GLAD you're so sure about what is right and what isn't... I WISH that I could be that certain about isues like these! No black and no white, just shades of grey... it's a curse. |
| Welcome to Pennsylvania! Land of Amish puppymills! Yup, it's not good and not that many people know about it and that is a huge shame. Many of the Amish in this area were having difficulties making ends meet by just growing crops and you know what they found? Dogs are a great crop! They already had barns and pens so they got rid of their cows and horses and bought some dogs. Easy enough? You know what else? People find it hard to resist puppies! Huge cash and so easy. I can't speak to all millers but these people (Amish) regard dogs as livestock or crops not as family members or pets. It is going to take a lot to shut those people down. There is one group in this area called Puppylove Kennels. They were given thousands of dollars in fines over just a few short years and nothing happened. They even kept transferring dog's registrations and ownership between family members to avoid having business shut down. (This is the same way that they avoided losing their AKC registering priviledges. And that's all that the AKC is is a registry, they very much like the money that comes from people with lots of dogs.) It took hundreds of angry customers and tens of thousands of dollars in fines and multiple sanctions to even get them to stop 'doing business' for even a short time. (P.S. these people's last names are Stoltzfus, check your registrations they used to sell OES, don't know if they still do.)
One thing I have learned by visiting these Amish mills is that almost none of them raise OES. It is very difficult for them because they are big, noisy and very hairy. Apparently this breed can stand up for itself by vocally protesting and therefor a big reason they don't want to deal with them. Seeing these operations, even paying 200 dollars for a rescue dog won't make much of a difference to the millers. I've been at a mill when they sold 8 puppies at one time to different people. The cheapest one was 500 dollars because it was an oops mix. The purebreds were closer to a 1000 dollars. They also don't do much auctioning because gas is expensive and they don't make much money there. The easiest thing for them to do is "let the dog go" and then get rid of it. (Which is to be placed in the mulch pile out back. They then use it to fertilize whatever crops they or their neighbors grow. Oh yeah, ewwwwww.) So these people will empty a cage whichever way is necessary. Death or 25 dollars, they really don't care. Like I said, I've only seen what goes on around here which can be quite different than the mainstream commercial mills. Check out this link for more info on what to do about mills. http://www.njcapsa.org/ They do some great work to stop mills and they have some educational material on what to do to help. I also think that since the OESCA's national specialty is in Lancaster this year (Welcome to Amish Country!) that they should do something to investigate OES in a mill situation. Why not protect your breed if you're going to be in town? I really don't have a clue on how to fix this forever. I guess we should all just do our own little part and band together when we can to help the big picture. |
| Bill, I may not agree with your opinion but I respect your right to voice it and do feel educated by reading it. Please do not feel that you should not continue to participate. You may also want to look at some of our "lighter" posts, this is a "fun kinda place" as well as being educational.
Ginny PS I don't need spell check I need a secretary to do my typing for me!!!! |
| I just found this thread... It reminds me a lot of the agonizing that's been going in the back of my mind for the last couple of days after we discovered the guy selling the dogs from the puppy mill.
It's been difficult for us to remove the idea of having walked away from the guy without buying a puppy from him. I know someone else would buy that puppy from him, as people look for a cheap bargain instead of quality of life for the mothers of those puppies. But not having purchased that puppy from him, means that it's one less puppy he will produce, thus we saved a dog's life on the future. Having to sacrifice the current generations by boycotting puppy mills, means that yes, some dogs will suffer today but many more will be saved in the future. It's a very had tought to swallow, specially when you look at the mother and the puppies and their eyes beg for help, then you walk away with tears in your eyes because you know you are doing something good for future generations. On the other hand, you really cannot put a price on saving a life. If cassie's momma decided to rescue those doggies becase she felt like it was the right thing to do, then I have no more than to applaud that choice, you made sure that this doggies will have a great quality of life with their forever families, instead of abuse and suffering because their only sin was not being up to the OES standard. Who cares if they are not purebreed OES? At least I don't, they are living, full of love dogs and have all the right to live a plentiful life in a home where they will be the world's greatest dog. Saving lives, today or tomorrow is what counts. My deepest regards and congratulations to everyone that is actively doing something to save our four legged friends from suffering. |
| Just wanted to let everyone know that the 5 Babies vet visit went great. Checked their little hearts, lungs. mouths, hinnies, no parasites. No deafness.Hurrah!!!!!So far so good. They had been in quaritine until we were sure they were OK. They had been together in a wire pin since they were 3 weeks old. They didn't know what to do when I brought them in the house with the other Rescue Babies. Boy Howdy they caught on pretty fast. Stuffed toys, balls, water, food OH MY. Now we start the soicalization. The little buggers have no social skills at all. So the other Babies will teach them. So when they go to Their Furever Homes they will be confident secure Sheepies and will make Fantastic Family Members. Their a Rag Tag looking bunch right now but with some good nutrition and exercise they will be Beautiful. Thank You All So Much For Opening Your Hearts To These Little Guys. Cuddles, Bubbles, Bubba, Joe Bob and Bo Say Howdy From Texas. Sheepie Hugs, Kaye |
| also think that since the OESCA's national specialty is in Lancaster this year (Welcome to Amish Country!) that they should do something to investigate OES in a mill situation. Why not protect your breed if you're going to be in town? That was a wonderful thought provoking post. Checked into what the NJ org is doing. They have really organized and are doing great work in shutting the pet stores down. I didn't know that Woof & Co had changed their name to Rufus..Closed 2 of them down in Mass!!!! Great!!!!! Had a thought... Wouldn't it be great if the OESCA Rescue Parade would march the parade right on down the road to visit the Amish Puppymills!!!!!!!!!!! What a Sight That Would Be......Sheepie Hugs, Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| Wow, it took me a while to get all that reading done! I have to say that I feel completely helpless and reved up! I am reluctant to state an opinion because I'm so emotional about this whole issue. Though I am glad to have had all the information put forth, it is hard to read all these stories! I think that if I was in the same situation that Kaye was I would have done the exact same thing! The starfish story really does say it all!
I have never purchased ANYTHING or ANYONE from a store that has puppies but having said that I still for some reason am compelled to wander in these stores when I'm in a mall. I go directly where the animals are and usually start crying and leave! I always feel like I want to do something, but what? All these posts have definately spurred these emotions in me but it seems that there really is no answer. All I do know is that all of us will make a difference some day no matter how big or small, no matter how we go about it. Thank you all for the education! As for the H2H rescue, I really do admire your stand on the whole issue and really want to let you know that I really appreciate your honesty on the whole issue. That's how we will all learn to form our opinions and take a small or big stand on the PM issue. I am personally going to tell anyone that will listen to me about this discussion and hopefully they all will too! Some day I truly believe that EVERYONE will be educated enough to make the right choices on choosing a pet for a companion and if that happens there will no PM's because no one would ever buy from them! But until then, I just hope that all the rescue organizations out there will make choices like Kaye did. No set rules, just evaluating each situation as they arise. As for a parade to the Amish PM...I think it is a great idea and Gucci George and I are in!!! We just want to make our small difference any way we can! So I guess my final take on it all is, no matter WHAT our stand is on this controversial issue...just have one and pass on all the education you receive to all that will listen. Thanks for the debate! Colleen and Gucci George |
| One small thing I try to do is to only purchase things from pet stores that do not sell dog or cats. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG but I believe that Pet Smart is a chain that has a policy against puppy mills. In the two Pet Smart stores I have been in the only animals that are sold are fish and rodents.
My local Pet Smart often has available for adoption animals from our local humane society. I am wondering how to go about making sure that the places I do business with (both on line and retail) do not have any connection to Hunte or other puppy mill groups. |
| Evertime I would see and old dog on the street, one chained up, puppies for sale in some parking lot lot My Heart Would Hurt but I didn't know what to do so I didn't do anything. I wounded My Spirit by standing by and doing nothing. It doesn't make any difference what you do as long as you do something. Go to your local shelter and ask them what they need. They will have a wish list of items. It may be bleach, blankets, toys and they need dog food all the time. Most of them are really struggling trying to keep their head above water also. Volunteer..If you can't handle dealing with the Babies ask them if they need help with paperwork or maybe computer work. Lots of time they don't have enough help to even get on Petfinder and list the Babies that they have. a few hours a week or month will help you and them. I checked out the NJ org { several posts back}that is fighting to shut down these pet stores in NJ and Mass. They have managed to help shut down two in Mass. The Rufus Pets Stores used to called Woof & Co owned by Hunte Corp. Donate to their efforts. It doesn't have to be a BIG amount. If you live in that part of the country contact them and join them. I live in Texas so yesterday I sent them a donation. THey are a 501c3. So what if they are not specilly OES Rescue. It will save some OES puppies in the future. If we can stop the sale of puppies in Petstores that is a major step. If the Petstores don't take the puupies then they will turn to the general public in newpapers or the internet. Then if the general public can be educated we are in the right direction. This could be done by the Breed Clubs and Rescue Org. We are trying on our little webpage to address this problem and get the info out. Information and Knowledge are Freedom. Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| I have been away this weekend and I have missed a lot. Tasker's mom, you are right, Petsmart does not sell dogs or cats. We got Samantha thru Pet Pal Rescue ( www.petpalrescue.com ). Petsmart lets the rescue group stand outside with their rescue dogs that are available fpr adoption (the cat rescue gets the inside). We paid $250.00 for Sam. She was an owner surrender and that owner paid $1000.00 for her. We are guessing she is a puppymill dog as she was bought from another local pet store that sells dogs. The money we paid for her went towards spaying and up to date shots etc.
I like the starfish story, everyone needs to help to save a few lives from time to time. |
| I have thought about this topic, and thought about it and thought about it. I have seen talk of money, whats right, whats wrong. One thing I havent seen mentioned very much is education. I had no idea how many puppy mills were out there, and in Indiana! Chances are if I had no idea, then most people dont realize what is out there. I think its fantastic that we can have an open discussion about this here and on other forums, but what about the general public? Who is telling them? Knowledge is power.
My son has a shih tzu, a mill puppy, which i was totally against, went into preaching mode about everything that I knew about puppy mills. He looked at me and said "Mom, I cant leave him here, where will he end up if i dont take him home?" Now he is out of his tiny cage, nuetered, and no longer in the system producing more little babies. As was stated in an earlier post, the possibility of 67,000 puppies can be produced from a mama and her litter. So if taking one tiny puppy, can make a difference of 67,000 more puppies being out there, then I'm proud of my son and why he decided to get Dunkn. To me, saving those 5 precious lil babies, spay/nuetering them, finding loving homes for them, costed the puppy mill a loss of income from 335,000 puppies that could potentially be produced and entered into the system. but back to my original thought, EDUCATION!!! People need to know, and not just us dog lovers that interact with other dog lovers. We got Bogey from a shelter that has meet and greets at PetSmart. |
| Hi! Having read the recent debate I would like to say that guiding principles are always important. But principles have to balance one another. It seems to me that we have a moral obligation to show mercy and compassion to whom soever crosses our paths. Certainly in human history, individuals sold into slavery have been rescued without bloodshed by being "bought" from the slave dealer and subsequently freed. These puppies were in a similar predicament. By paying the dealer their rescuer obtained their freedom. While it is important not to encourage these traders, it is equally imporant to ensure that the innocent don't suffer. Lynda |
| That's a unique way of looking at it... puts it into a completely different perspective. |
| That is an excellent analogy!
Colleen and Gucci George |
Another guest wrote: :) Hi! Having read the recent debate I would like to say that guiding principles are always important. But principles have to balance one another. It seems to me that we have a moral obligation to show mercy and compassion to whom soever crosses our paths. Certainly in human history, individuals sold into slavery have been rescued without bloodshed by being "bought" from the slave dealer and subsequently freed. These puppies were in a similar predicament. By paying the dealer their rescuer obtained their freedom. While it is important not to encourage these traders, it is equally imporant to ensure that the innocent don't suffer. Lynda
The best perspective I've read yet!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. |
| Another Guest- Very good letter! And I also agree completely with jst2cute! These are two different fronts of this "battle". Education is a mandatory if we are ever going to lessen this problem. It must reach the everyday person... people that might see that cute puppy in the pet store and feel sorry for it or simply purchase it on impulse. About 15 years ago, I was one of those people who ALMOST bought from one out of ignorance... I just didn't know any better! A group picketed the store and it closed down but I didn't understand why at the time.
I came across a few examples of 2004 USDA reports which make me believe we're well past the "ignore it and it will go away" stage when it comes to mills/commercial breeders. Have you ever seen one of these? The information below came from the http://www.aphis.usda.gov website, specifically, found at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/frequent_r ... uests.html
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/redacted_i ... 3-2004.pdf
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/redacted_i ... 5-2004.pdf
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/redacted_i ... 4-2004.pdf These are USDA inspection reports of just 3 facilities with undisclosed breeds of dogs... you can read a few other examples there too. I can't fathom caring for this number of dogs and ever doing it well. If anyone seriously thinks this problem will just go away, they are sadly mistaken... and at the expense of these breeding adults and puppies. There is also a website that you can visit that will show you where your nearest USDA office is- http://offices.sc.egov.usda.gov/locator/app I believe you can request a copy of a USDA report if there is a USDA commercial breeder in your area. But remember... this is all perfectly legal. The point is, they're out there and as long as they follow the guidelines set by the USDA as far as feeding, cleanliness, medical, housing, etc. they are free to operate. We know people need to be educated about this dirty little secret. One approach I suppose would be to reach the kids so they can educate the parents. How do we educate the public in general on a large scale? Jaci |
| This has been a great subject to comment on. I agree with the guest who said that if they saved 1 spayed/neutered animal, that prevented the 60,000 or so offspring. When you want a dog (or any animal) you find one that fits your needs and wants. Whether it is from a shelter or puppymill, you know what dog is for you. As much as I would like to close down the mills, I would take the right one in a heartbeat, even only to save the animal from neglect and abuse.
Someone mentioned shipping dogs to Korea for eating purposes. Please do not judge their culture. They find ours equally strange. Hopefully, they will raise enough dogs there with out importing ours. I could never eat dog or cat if found on a menu. I was once served shark fin soup in Indonesia. I couldn't eat it on principal (I did try it to be polite, it was terrible). I live in Florida, and with the few attacks that has happened lately, sharks are not my favorite animal, but I have a great respect for them. On the other hand, I think lambs and piglets are cute.....if I lived on a farm, I could possibly have them as pets. But, I eat bacon and lamb chops. I guess I would make a poor farmer, I could never eat something I raised . I have ofter wondered how the 4-H kids could raise a calf and them sell it. They don't all go to stud services. |
| As far as I know in MI all the Petsmarts have dog adoption day on Saturday and some on Sunday. They allow rescue groups etc., to bring the dogs in and have Xpens set up for the dogs. In Traverse City the foster families are on hand to answer questions about behaviour, medical issues and so on. Many dogs are adopted this way so it's a win/win situation for all involved. The cost for a dog is about $100.00. |
| The other thing we need to realize about these USDA inspections and reports is that much of the time one inspection is all that these places get. The USDA may come out on January 1 of 2005, note 12 violations and then follow up 8 months later and just file a report that nothing has been corrected. In many cases there is no follow up! The USDA needs to be told that this is a priority. I'm sure their resources are strained but if they concentrated on one mill or one area at a time I think that they would have better results. Just look at PuppyLove Kennels. After years and years and years of inspections and the same violations being noted do you know what finally made some progress in getting them penalized? Consumer complaints. People complained to the Better Business Bureau, the USDA, and eventually the State Attorney General's office. (Note that I only said penalized. They are paying big penalties now but are still legally allowed to sell dogs under big restrictions. The AKC may have pulled their ability to register but I'm not 100% sure.) These penalties and restrictions may be enough to drive them out of business but only time will tell.
Here's the link for the story: http://www.njcapsa.org/ Just look at PuppyLove, on the left. The most help that each person can do is to lend their voice and their effort. Tell people about these situations. Tell everyone you meet (well I'm sure some people would look at you like you were crazy if you just started ranting in the supermarket.....) People need to be educated. I had friends who were going to drive out to a mill and pick a puppy and the main reason for them going to that place? VARIETY! They didn't know what kind of dog they wanted so they were just going to go look at all of them and decide while they were there. I don't think so! People need to be told to do their research and find out what a breed is like before they just go pick the first cute face! I absolutely hate to say it but, we do need to realize that some dogs are going to die. There is just no way to save them all, as much as that hurts to realize. It's just like the starfish story, we can't save them all but we should still do what we can. |
| Send letters and emails. Let the elected officials in PA know how you feel, make them aware that you won't visit their state and spend your money . Let them know that behind the charming pictures of the Amish in their horse and buggies lurks a horrific problem. Contact the Chamber of Commerce in Lancaster County and the Board of Tourism. Follow the link provided by Shug and send your thoughts to the Governor and other officials. Maybe it won't make a huge difference but I'm sure the state depends on tourism as a large part of it's budget so it may have some effect.
www.patourism.org 128 Walnut St. Harrisburg, PA 17101 717.232.8880 fax 717.232.8948 Lancaster County Chamber of Commerce Southern Market Center 100 South Queen St. Lancaster, PA 17603 717.397.3531 fax 717.293.3159 www.prisonersofgreed.org/ they have email addresses listed for the governor and other officials and have sample letters There are over 1000 of us here, if only half of us send a letter that is 500 voices. Five hundred protests in a short time frame shoud receive some type of notice. Tell anyone and everyone you can to contact someone in PA. This won't make the problem go away but it's something positive we can all do. |
| Another guest, Bravo!!! It's a great comment that put things on perspective on why we fight on both sides to protect the innocent dogs from the present and the future.
Let's be active! Start your own education campaign whenever you have a chance. Start smalltalk to people of dogs in the street when you see them walking with their dogs. Danita and I have been doing that for some time, we keep track of a few OES we've seen on the street, knock on their owner's doors and talk to them for a while, if they seem neglected we explain them why you have to brush them often, tell them how to deal with mats, why they have to shave them in the summer and why they are so hyper and friendly. So far, it's worked great! People is very receptive if you approach them in a friendly way without preaching or being angry at them, and most of the time it works, because when we've come back later on to check on them, we've seen them shaved and better taken care for. |
| I like seeing this approach, have already written 10 letters, anyone else wanna join me? |
| I've been writing also. If we all join in maybe something positive will happen. No matter what your position is at least you can be heard. |
| We have written quite a long string of posts about what to do with poor mill puppies. But the reality is that by the time a mill puppy has been born we have already failed. We have failed the mother forced to breed to death, the puppies born with birth defects, and the puppies born healthy but traumatized by living in filth, poor socialization, and then removed from their mothers too early.
The only solution is prevention--animals must be given legal rights. Animal cruelty must be defined broadly enough to outlaw puppy mills and there must be enough public outcry to spend the money for enforcement. Until we have that I am afraid this problem will never go away. |
| MONEY!!!!! You hit where it hurts. Puppymills, Commercial Breeders.,.Supply and demand. These people don't breed because they love having puppies to play with. It is a business. Commercial breeders pay taxes.They bring money into the state where their facility is at. Penn, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio and Kansas don't care where the money comes from. Unemployment is high in all these states. Hunte Corp has really helped the unemployment problem in the states where they are at. These people don't look at it the way we Animal Lovers do. Raising Dogs is the same to them as raising cattle, goats, chickens.. The point is you can't get to these people from the morality end. They don't think they are doing anything wrong. Until pressure is put on the politians the laws won't be changed. Dogs and Cats are a possession and therefore has no rights in most of the states. So you bring it to the publics attention. IF DOGS COULD VOTE THE POLITIANS WOULD CHANGE THEIR MINDS!!!!!!!!! Kaye, Second Chance OES Rescue |
| Maxmm wrote "The other thing we need to realize about these USDA inspections and reports is that much of the time one inspection is all that these places get. The USDA may come out on January 1 of 2005, note 12 violations and then follow up 8 months later and just file a report that nothing has been corrected. In many cases there is no follow up!"
The DCF (Dept of Children and Families) in Florida has a hard time doing follow up inspections on children . It happens too often, either the child is lost in the system or is sent back to the original home for more abuse. It is so sad, but they (the DCF) claim they are understaffed and underpaid. Until they fix the problem of helping humans, I can't see a goverment agency hurrying up to help animals. |
| I was reading an article about Alex (http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,68226,00.html), a parrot that has developed high intelligence signs. He can count and learn new words by association. He seems very intelligent.
They made a quote that made a lot of sense: "Basically, it's easier to convince people to conserve creatures that are sentient, that are intelligent, that are more like us." If we can teach our dogs tricks that develop their intelligence and show that to people, we can start educating the people we know about how they have moods, feelings and understand what goes around them, so they should not be treated as livestock, but as sentient creatures that feel and suffer if mistreated. |
| Dog population problems. What to do about it. Which rescue is worthy of life, which of death. All this, being discussed in a nation that years ago decided a fetus is not a "living" being, and can be disposed of on a whim.
If one wants to purchase a living creature in order to save its life, why should it matter to anyone else? Especially, if they're going to "fix" it, so it can't reproduce. I see both sides, but I also feel its time for the big time, show breeders to accept their responsibility in all of this as well. Granted, you are improving the breed standard, placing high prices on your dogs, which in turn raises the prices of the others bred by so called irresponsible breeders, but what else do you do? When a little peon, approaches you to purchase a pet, what do you do? You usually end up sending them away. Where do they go? To whomever has the dogs, which would be the commercial breeders, puppymills and backyard breeders (responsible or not). I think a lot of people think that having a registered dog is the responsible thing to do. After all, wouldn't you think that an organization registering dogs would have some sort of standards for breeders to meet, etc.? Those organizations are also responsible for the lives and deaths of these animals. It's too easy to put the blame on everyone else. Go back to the beginning. Some of these breeds didn't even exist until...............well, you get the picture. Who prances them around the ring making everyone want one? Well, breeders breed, people buy, and then like most things people buy on a whim, its disposed of. Thank God for Rescues, regardless of whether moneys involved or not. I know I've stepped on some toes, sorry, just my opinions. Of course, you'd probably expect that from someone from Indiana, whom doesn't work, thats not concerned about the mortality, just the money, but had to recently give up 4 dogs to rescue, the oldest being 11, that I held in my hand at birth. Sure am thankful their adoptions didn't boil down to a matter of money.
The government should not have to be involved in pet issues. Are we not capable of handling anything on our own, without their involvement! |
| It is s vicious circle. The Show Breeders say " If a dog has not been shown and finsihed it should not bred"....... Although I think the problem is way past that statement...Whoever sold the first OES with full AKC registration blew that idea..They are the ones that are out front. They could make at least a statement about puppymills to bring the problem to the attention of the general public. But, alas that won't be done. AKC as long as they get their money they won't do anything either. THEY are really concerned about puppymills ...that is why they are having the Big Centenial Dog Show right in the middle of Amish Puppymill Country. So LETS ALL JUST IGNORE THE PROBLEM AND IT WILL GO AWAY.....I'll be sure and tell that to the 14 Rescue Babies I have here.......Kaye Second CHance OES Rescue |
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