I'm so excited
I'm somewhat nervous. |
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| Good luck in your classes tonight! Sadly, in MN we are in a blizzard area today/tonight, so I had to cancel our classes for this evening.  |
Have fun in class! And  for searching for training methods suited to your girls' personalities. Training is definitely not "one size (or method) fits all!"(and stay warm, Dawn!) |
Funny, we have had so little snow this year its awful. We will definitely face bad drought conditions this year if it doesn't snow soon. This reminds me, I need to go put the dog sheets in the back of the car and the treats. I'll forget them and then it will be obvious that we're just a huge mess.  |
| Dry, dry here like California. Had early snows before Holidays, nothing since and nothing on horizon. The long range forecast was for dry, dry Jan-->March. |
| Well, that was a disaster. Dan doesn't want to go back to the class. The dog-girls acted like I expected, but I think that the trainer really didn't believe me when I told her of the girls' issues. I don't think she realized that I wasn't issuing challenges when I told her about my dogs, I was trying to let her know what was coming in. I really think the trainer fell into what I call the "purebreed trap". Where someone sees a beautiful, purebred dog and they assume that the dog will behave as beautifully as it looks. Sorry, purebred or rarer dogs can be as neglected and abused as mixed breed dogs. Maybe it doesn't happen as often, but obviously it does. I wouldn't expect that from a person who trains dogs, but its so common in other people that maybe she did it anyway. So I don't know if Amy's sheepie tornado or Opal slipping her collar (which I had tightened up two holes before class) was more exciting. Opal also had to bark the entire time, which sets off Amy, so we had that duet of high-pitched collie barking, and loud, low-ringing sheepie barking to entertain those with the adorable, well-behaved, half-grown pups. I don't know if I have a lot of confidence in the trainer. She seemed all over the place in trying to tell us commands (at least from what I heard over the chorus of herd dogs gone wild). I thought she would go over the techniques and how to implement them first then have us copy them. Instead she would just say "make the dog lay down", "make them sit with a lure." Which is confusing since we've never used lures to gain compliance in our dogs. Lure, Reward, Bribe...? I'm not even sure I understand the definitions as those words relate to training. Maybe the choke chain enforcement technique is a better way. Behave immediately or face the painful consequences. Especially considering the trainer told me to get a prong collar for Amy and a choker for Opal anyway. |
And I just read that post and realize that I'm making excuses for the dogs.  I know I am. I really had hoped that the trainer would realize that the girls behavior isn't because we are bad owners, but because we have to undo a lot of bad that has been done to the girls. Both Dan and I came away feeling like we were being blamed for creating such terrible dogs. We went in feeling like, "Hey, the dogs are unpacked enough that we can introduce them to a training class." We came out feeling like we were garbage as pet owners. Here we've had people send their dogs to us for training, but these two are tough when put together. Amy had a lot more baggage than we've dealt with before, so we knew we'd need help. I don't know. |
| I am so sorry. Well, you've learned a few things. Maybe, maybe one dog at a time. Smaller class with older dogs, not pups. Class for you.......maybe go and observe without dogs for awhile. When you understand and gain confidence in the commands, the pups will pick that up. Confidence travels down the leash. Sounds like they may be overwhelmed with new situation, uncertain family members and a class not suited to their....and your...needs. Perhaps you can find a teacher who will come to your home and observe there, perhaps find actions by all the uprights that need correction before the dogs can move forward. You are right.........don't make excuses for the dogs, you and the family are the ones that need the training right now. Dogs were just being dogs who were never trained. Most traumatized dogs respond quite well to confident pack leader(s.) Please don't let this first time disaster stop you. Quitters don't make progress. |
| They were definitely overwhelmed with the new situation. We were too. It seemed much more unorganized than classes we've been to before, but that may just have seemed that way because the girls were so wound up. At home I can get the dogs to follow a number of commands. There are some things that we really need to work on, but basic sit, down, wait, go, drop it, ok, load, we have... at home. We've been working on stay, stand, here, come, and heel, for a while with heeling being the most frustrating with Amy. In public all bets are off. I was disappointed too, the class said it had a 6 dog limit, but there were 10 dogs there for training last night. If this facility allows their trainers to increase classes by 80% then I don't know where I'd find a class that isn't overfull. |
| It sounds like a very disorganised class, including the unexpected increase in numbers. I think it's false advertising to say there's a maximum participant number but allow trainers to increase it by 80% (I'd be very unhappy about that). I've been to a few different trainers and the best ones focus on the owners. They spent lots of time explaining how to teach the command and then sent us home to work on two or three at most commands. And then there would be a follow up next class re how it went. Were all the other dogs newbies too? First class was always bad. Many dogs were either too excited or so overwhelmed they shut down. It sounds like Amy and Opal were really winding each other up. I'd try either you and Dan moving as far away from each other as possible or one dog at a time. Don't give up it can take some trial and error to either settle in or find the right class for you and your dogs. If you're really not comfortable with the trainer its probably better to find another. Re: lure, reward, bribe. Bribe is not really a training word but it kind of looks like that's what is happening. A lure is a treat that you use to lure the dog to do what you want ie. put the treat above the dogs nose and move it backwards so the dog sits down (hopefully  ) as it follows the treat.A reward is also a treat, or a game like tug (anything that the dog enjoys) that the dog knows it will get for performing the behaviour that you want. Some trainers only use lures or only use rewards depends on their experience and philosophy. They are a really helpful training method to have in your toolbox because you're teaching the dog the behaviour that you DO want rather than what you DON'T want. Good luck  and keep us posted on how things go.PS a largish class is not always a problem, as long as the trainer knows how to organise dogs/owners/information |
| Oh, no! How frustrating for all of you, Amy and Opal included! Don't give up on a training method just because of one bad class. The simple fact that the trainer allowed so many extra dogs into the class would be a BIG red flag for me. Perhaps you can have a couple of in-home sessions with a different trainer while you are searching for the next class. And search out a trainer who will let you come in and observe a class before you commit to a course, (just you, no dogs), so you can see how they run their training sessions. Don't give up - you've made such great strides already.  |
| Thanks for letting me whine. I really appreciate it. We aren't sure if we should separate the dogs and go one at a time or not. I'm coming to the conclusion that we are probably going to fail the class, unless there is some big turnaround for all of us. They work fine here at home and in the backyard, and I do the training exercises we are supposed to do (we were doing a lot of them before anyway). The moment we go out the front door of the house we are back to square one, especially with Opal. Some questions though: We are supposed to do something called a "food dish walk" which is when we are supposed to take the food dishes away and make the dogs walk to them from 20-25 feet away. This isn't working with my dogs. They don't really care about the food dishes at this point (because I've worked so darn hard to get them out of the whole the food dish is special thing). I'm not sure what the theory is behind this one in order to modify it. I am not going to screw up the work I've done in giving up resource guarding for an exercise where I don't understand the theory. Is there a theory? Is this something new? I've not done this in an obedience class before. Second, we are suppose to groom the dogs for at least 5 minutes everyday (Insert laughter here). If the dogs bite or get upset we are suppose to tell her. Do I really bother to tell her that Amy bites at me when I brush sensitive nether regions and her bum? I mean its so much better than when we brought her home and she seriously would bite with no warning. I even have hope that in a few more months she won't try to bite at all, she's pretty half-hearted, and she lets me know that she's going to try to bite now. Like Dan said, do you mention the dogs get irritated with the brushing after 30 minutes? Again, I feel like I've made such progress with both dogs that I don't want to do something to undo it. Or am I coddling these dogs too much? Spray the dogs in the face with water when they bark is killing me. It causes pee. But I have to get the dogs to stop barking for the class. Where do I go with that? |
| I hate to give up, these classes weren't cheap and I've not found any information on getting a refund. |
I've never heard of the food dish walk.  Do you let them start eating first and then take the dish away? I'd guess it's to do with being pack leader, some training philosophies are set up around 'the pack leader eats first'. But I'm not sure. Ideally the trainer would have told you what the purpose of the exercise is, I'd ask for an explanation and advise that you've spent lots of effort around resource guarding and you don't want to backslide. One of the biggest issues in dog training is distraction. Everyone notices that their dogs can obey commands at home but not in class (there's too much excitement and stimulation). So from that perspective its worth persevering. Maybe you could resign yourself to providing wonderful distraction for all the other dogs.  (only kidding)Maybe try keeping well away from each other in class for a bit and see if that helps. But it may be worth asking about the policy re: refund or at least deferring lessons for one dog if they won't refund. It may be that you can get a refund after one class but not two or three. Grooming thing. Up to you whether you tell her. Again you could ask her why it's important for her to know. |
| I'm totally against spraying the dog in the face to stop them from barking. Then people wonder why the dog doesn't want to take a bath. The dish walking thing seems strange. I would get an explaination for that one. My advice to you is: You know your dogs better than any of the trainers. How well do you know the trainer? Do you know if he/she had ever worked with a dog with the same issues as Amy or Opal? Before you put forward their advice on your dog, make sure you have proof they know what they are talking about and not just theory. I know you would rather not have the dogs in seperate classes, if you want to continue classes, you might want to rethink that. I had both of my aussies in Agility training together and it sometimes became a barkfest between them. They kept talking to each other across the Agility field. We finally started running them side by side. I learned my lesson, seperate classes. lol Eventually, you'll be able to have them in the same class. The dogs get extra stimulated when they are in a new enviorment, that is why they go bark-bat-crazy. So once you and hubby get more confident, and stop being embarressed about your dogs behavior. Remember that is why you are taking them to class, for obidience and to socialize. Everything will eventually work out, after all it was only the first night. When I took Violet to obediance class, since I adopted her at 9mts, she was much older than most of the puppies and way bigger. So you know the trick you're suppose to use to get them to sit? The one where you bring the treat over their head back to their bum, which should make them sit automatically? Well Violet could ger her kneck to go all the way back and not sit. Oh yes, fun. Good luck. |
| Resource guarding, ah geez. With Jack I could only get to an exchange.........Trade a treat for the bowl. Better than him trying to tear my thumb off the first time I tried removing the dish. Of course it never worked while he was eating. If she is still guarding the bowl after eating, try a "to die for" as a bribe. That way you'll break the dog's fixation on the bowl. Then you can move on to removing with food still inside.......it may take a year....or like Jack, never. A few spritzes to begin and then just seeing the spritz bottle should work. Another method is the coins or gravel in a can. Shake it and it makes a horrible racket that takes the brain out of bark........for most dogs. Once again just seeing the can may be enough in time. Try some visual command after she stops barking......hand over your mouth for example, then a small treat. Teach her to associate the visual command with a treat. Of course the barking is her way of trying to gain control. Be firm but no screaming or control loss on your part. As for separating dogs, train one at one time while the other is in time out in a crate with a towel or some other visual blocker. Sounds like they are feeding off one another. Or if you are there with another adult, stand at opposite parts of the training room, not together. Your dogs were not socialized as pups or raised with a strong, gentle leader. They are having to learn puppy stuff in an adult package. Before I'd ask for a refund, I'd be taking the classes for yourself even if the dog is in permanent time out in a crate away from the action. The greater part of dog training is training the owner. |
Hollie started her puppy training class last week. She had never met others dogs and was quite overwhelmed with them barking. By the end of the session she was more chilled :I can't wait for her to walk properly on the lead as I nearly trip over her darting from side to side but I do correct her  |
| My Sheepie had issues with food aggression and we had two different trainers work with him, to no avail. He would be fine when the leash was on him (because he knew he would get a correction) but the minute the leash was off, right back to aggressive behavior. I also tried, feeding him by hand by taking food out of the food bowl but that still did not work once the bowl was on the ground. I ended up teaching him to come/sit (away from the bowl) and then I would take up his food bowl. As far as aggression with treats, particularly the pig ears, etc., she will have to learn 'drop' command in order to safely get those away from her, many dogs are possessive of those types of treats.  I would work with her ON LEASH and tell her to drop it with a quick pop of the leash and a treat if she does the command. I do agree with others, that it might be best to take them to different classes to avoid them 'feeding' off of each others behaviors. |
| I sympathize about the class frustration. With my first dog, I used the trainer we officially recommended at the vet clinic where I worked. We endorsed her, I assumed she was good, and I signed up. I came home from the very first class as frustrated as you were, and knowing there were no refunds. I did go to all but the final class with that first trainer. I knew what motivated my Max, and it wasn't the strong-arm tactics she liked to use. (He had been badly beaten by his previous owner.) Still, I went to class, listened to what she said, and used or adapted her methods based on Max's needs. I didn't fuss with her, but I didn't let her force me into doing what I knew would be bad for him either. He ended up the best behaved dog in class. If you both stay in the same class, you and Dan may wind up sitting on the floor with Opal and Amy (side-by-side, or on opposite ends of the room, whichever works), with your classtime spent listening, observing, and keeping the girls calm and quiet. (And keeping yourselves calm and steady - you know they'll really pick up on your anxiety.) If doing the work in class with all those distractions is overstimulating them, at least you can observe and take home what you have learned. The first thing we did in Benson's beginning class was calming exercises, and throughout the rest of the course, we were all welcome to distance ourselves from the rest of the group and work on calming our pups whenever we decided they needed a "time out." Good luck! |
| I wish you guys lived closer and could just come to my classes. We have lots of space to work dogs who need more space, and I have lots of experience with behavioral issues. Bringing multiple household dogs (and dogs who already have issues) into the same class IS tougher, so you may need to do separate classes with them. Again, that is something I evaluate when students are in class, over the 1st week or 2. |
| I just had a thought that might help you get a refund. (It's at least worth a try.) You said the facility promises a six dog limit. With 10 dogs in the class, clearly they have misled their customers (outright lied, it sounds like to me). They must reduce their class size, and eliminate 4 dogs from that class. They need to start by refunding you for the two dogs you are withdrawing. If they are real ****s about it, you can mention words like "Better Business Bureau," "Association of Professional Dog Trainers," as well as how quickly negative feedback from a disgruntled customer can spread. Hopefully you won't have to go this far, but it's worth keeping in your back pocket. Then maybe you can get Dawn to come and visit you for a week?  |
got sheep wrote: I wish you guys lived closer and could just come to my classes. We have lots of space to work dogs who need more space, and I have lots of experience with behavioral issues. Bringing multiple household dogs (and dogs who already have issues) into the same class IS tougher, so you may need to do separate classes with them. Again, that is something I evaluate when students are in class, over the 1st week or 2. Dawn have your heard of the food dish walk method described? |
| I have to laugh at Violet and the treat. Opal does the same thing. Its like watching a snake dance. She also got bored with the long down-stay and starts doing tricks like play dead and roll over. I wish I lived closer too, Dawn! Someone who understands these issues a little bit better would be a godsend. The dogs were split up across the room, and I kind of wonder if they would have been more at ease closer together. I'm actually leaning toward just me taking just one dog to class. I don't know who needs it more. Opal is a pretty smart dog, and she's really fast at picking up training and tricks here at home. My big problems with her are her barking, lunging and pulling at the leash and basic socialization issues. In fact, Opal does great here at home with all of the exercises we were supposed to do. I do think that at some point Amy's been trained. She is also very smart and really willing to please me. She doesn't do a thing Dan asks her to do though, and she has that fear of men, as well as pulling, lunging and basic social skills. She too does a fantastic job with all of the homework we needed to do for class, here at home. I can guarantee that either dog will pass that class with flying colors if I just take one at a time. I just don't know who I would take at this point. I guess I need to figure out who has the most urgent need for formal training. And if the trainer won't refund or holdover the tuition for one of the dogs then we'll take both and just call it whatever. I need to talk to her about it. |
| I finally figured out the food dish thing. Its to train the dogs from pulling on the leash by making them walk on leash to their food. The dogs are supposed to be so excited by food that they rush to their dishes to eat. We were supposed to put them on leash, and then when they pull, stop them and return to a starting point to make them walk nicely to the food. Do this over and over until they don't pull on their leashes as you walk them to the dish. Since I'm wary about messing with anything related to our regular feeding methods, I did something different. I use a kid with a treat in hand. The dogs figured it out very quickly. Both of them will do the exercise off leash for that matter. Goofy dogs. It won't work in public, but they are exemplary backyard dogs. |
| Fair enough not to mess with your feeding routine. Next step, take one kid with treat in hand out in public and practise there. Initially somewhere very familiar and not too exciting. |
| After talking to the trainer on Wednesday and then going to class yesterday I think we'll stick with the classes and both dogs for now. She did end up splitting the class up, and putting most of the younger dogs in the other class. We talked about splitting my dogs up, but she said to give it a chance--her reasoning being that we would be more consistent with both dogs and that the whole family will do better if we all go to the same class, as well as now having the smaller class. Last night, Dan handled Amy and I handled Opal. He did better with Amy, and I did better with Opal. Opie has less formal training in her, and like I said, I think Amy's been trained in the past. We also were closer to each other which was a little better for the dogs--other than Amy wanted to be with me instead of Dan. She really is a momma's girl. She didn't give him too much trouble, and he felt a little easier working with her as she's so big. He says sometimes Opal feels so tiny that he's afraid of hurting her<--- and that right there is why we will probably never have small dogs.  And hey, when talking about unwanted behaviors, I am reminded for as many problems we have in public, the dogs really are well behaved at home. People asked about counter surfing, getting on the furniture, eating holes in the walls... We're in pretty good shape when it comes to that stuff. Oh and one more bright spot: Amy did not piddle even though Dan was in charge of her, and she was unhappy with the whole situation of being at training. |
| Glad you are working things out in your class. If you ever want to remotely pop in to my classes - the facility has webcams set up...so we are literally on "live" all the time when we teach. The Paw's website is : www.thepawmankato.com On the top of the page is a tab for the web cams. There is a short setup you may need to do on your computer to activate it - a one time thing. Our classes for beginners are Monday and Thursday evenings at 6:30pm, central time. We just completed week 2 - and we do a week with orientation (no dogs), and this week was people's 1st week with the dogs. They did really well. There is also a 7:30 class both nights, with more advanced students. |
That's great news!!  I felt sad for you every time I read the heading of this post and then that the class hadn't turned out how you'd hoped. Good girl Amy, no piddle. |
| So glad it seems to be working out better. AND that the class was split up into a more manageable size. What a good girl, Amy!  |
bekalm wrote: They were definitely overwhelmed with the new situation. We were too. It seemed much more unorganized than classes we've been to before, but that may just have seemed that way because the girls were so wound up. At home I can get the dogs to follow a number of commands. There are some things that we really need to work on, but basic sit, down, wait, go, drop it, ok, load, we have... at home. We've been working on stay, stand, here, come, and heel, for a while with heeling being the most frustrating with Amy. In public all bets are off. I was disappointed too, the class said it had a 6 dog limit, but there were 10 dogs there for training last night. If this facility allows their trainers to increase classes by 80% then I don't know where I'd find a class that isn't overfull. I hate being the one to butt into other peoples affairs and I know every dog is different, but My Max must be the exception to the rule, as Ive read through all the house breaking and chewing night mares every one seems to go through I count my lucky stars that we have never had any issues with Max at all outside of the new puppy thing we all go through when we first bring one home. Our previous friend (Doberman) of 14 years had passed away so about a year later I decided I was going to get a OES since I had always wanted one and at the age I am I figured its about time to get one, so enter Max into our lives, Anyway to make a long story short we used the same training method that we used on our Doberman which involved the proper use of a electronic collar, not only did it cure all his excitement when guest arrived into our home , but his outdoor activities as well. While he wears it all the time Ive only had to use it twice before he got the message that if he don't do what Ive requested of him he will hear a beep and if he still dose not comply he knows what's coming next but it never goes that far. He heels without a leash and yes even around his favorite (small children he is a perfect gentleman. Now I will say it takes a lot of work with the electronic collar you have to be consistent in its use. But to tell you the truth I would never take him or any other dog to a trainer to be trained. But like I say Max may be a exception to the rule, but our Doberman also behaved in the same manner with the electronic collar, as far as Im concerned it was the best purchase I ever made. |
| I hate being the one to butt into other peoples affairs and I know every dog is different, but My Max must be the exception to the rule, as Ive read through all the house breaking and chewing night mares every one seems to go through I count my lucky stars that we have never had any issues with Max at all outside of the new puppy thing we all go through when we first bring one home. Our previous friend (Doberman) of 14 years had passed away so about a year later I decided I was going to get a OES since I had always wanted one and at the age I am I figured its about time to get one, so enter Max into our lives, Anyway to make a long story short we used the same training method that we used on our Doberman which involved the proper use of a electronic collar, not only did it cure all his excitement when guest arrived into our home , but his outdoor activities as well. While he wears it all the time Ive only had to use it twice before he got the message that if he don't do what Ive requested of him he will hear a beep and if he still dose not comply he knows what's coming next but it never goes that far. He heels without a leash and yes even around his favorite (small children) he is a perfect gentleman. Now I will say it takes a lot of work with the electronic collar like anything else you have to be consistent in its use. But to tell you the truth I would never take him or any other dog to a trainer to be trained. But like I say Max may be a exception to the rule, but our Doberman also behaved in the same manner with the electronic collar, as far as Im concerned it was the best purchase I ever made. Now I know there will be those bleeding hearts that will shun me for using a electronic collar, hey shun all you want , Max has no issues that will upset and keep stress in his or our lives, we coexist without any of those and are a very happy family. You can pay a trainer or you can buy the collar and do it your self, but one things for sure it works and it works well. Just ask Max. Oh and for those bleeding hearts I love Max more than I ever loved any dog we've ever had, cant understand why It took me so long to get one. But I promise any of you who have behavior issues the collar will work. |
| Thank you Dawn! I wish I had popped online yesterday to see that. Our class is 6:00-7:00 Mountain on Thursday, so I will miss yours in the rush to get ready for ours. |
| Hank & Max, thanks for the input. I haven't found a trainer or facility in my area that lists electronic collars in their areas of expertise. I think that we'll be successful now that the entire family and the trainer are all on the same page. |
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