Scruffy Is An Unusual OES. Help!
Also, even though my FATHER has had experience with OES', I haven't. I barely remember Muffy when she needed training, so Scruffy is my 'maiden voyage', you might say. I've tried reading books (like 'Barrons', and a book by Cesar Millan) and I've watched The Dog Whisperer and other training shows, and I've used the methods I thought would work best. Its helped, but not enough. I'm not doing as much as I can be, and Scruffy, at this rate, won't reach her potential until she's quite old. Could you help us? Please? 1.) Barking when alone. We've had the cops call several times and even though its gone down, I want to be sure its eliminated permanently. The police are threatening impoundment, and, due to the number of times she's been in the local shelter, she'd be killed if she's taken from us. 2.) Paws. She paws at the humans when she wants something, usually attention. She doesn't understand that she has claws and they hurt! How can we teach her when its appropriate to paw? Also, do you know of any affordable nail trimmers? She doesn’t like her paws being messed with so perhaps something that won’t hurt her even if she struggles and the device slips? 3.) No instincts. My dad says she has the instinct to please, but I don't see it. How can I measure which instinct she has and use that instinct to my advantage in training her? Also, could you give me a list of successful training techniques that accompany the instincts? 4.) Dog or Human? In her last family, the mother and daughter taught her it was okay to be hyper all the time and to paw and generally how to be human. How can I teach her her place as a dog? Also, in case you’re curious, the family still come to check on her and I can’t let her out of the door for fifteen minutes before she starts calming down enough for me to walk her outside, on a leash, without Scruffy pulling away from me. That family has a young toddler and I’m afraid she’ll knock over the baby and cause some damage. 5.) Hyperactivity and Barking in Excitement. She's hyper all of the time and I'm making her wait at the doorway for food and permission to go outside to play, but she always runs when I release her, and she barks when she leaves to play. How can I make her understand it’s the calmness I want, not how long she can sit still to get permission and nothing else? 6.) Barking when Playing. Oftentimes, she barks incessantly when she's playing Fetch with the Goldens, and I've been working on getting her to stay quiet, but it only works when she's by my side and I have a physical hold on her (I just hold her ear lightly and give a slight tug when she makes any noise), but I can't do that forever. She has to expel that energy and it can't happen at my side. So, what can I do so she's quite even when she's running? We've had her for almost a year and she's progressed very little, and she's been messing up our Goldens training as well! I trained those puppies for four years to make those Goldens perfectly trained and she's undone all of my hard work! Naturally, I’d like HER trained before I retrain the Goldens. And I don’t want to sound mean or anything. I’m merely getting a little flustered at having four years of effort undermined. Also, do you think it’s a good idea to teach her how to be a modern day, California sled dog of sorts? Meaning, I attach her collar and leash to a wagon, give a command with a snap of the ‘reins’ and she runs us around the block a few times. How could I go about this from beginning to end? I have a great place to start her off. I live in a cul-de-sac that’s about a minute five houses long and two houses wide at the curve. I just need some details, please! Also, do you know of any way I can give her a herding job? We have no wild ducks or birds that can be herded by our house, and no young children or other animals beside the Goldens and one cat. Could she herd maybe a group of balls or something? The Goldens have found their place in Nichols’ heaven with Fetch. I want that same thing for Scruffy. Also, a bit unrelated, could you give a list of your OES’ favorite people foods? I’m trying to make the dog’s kibble with human food, since I’m worried the dog food isn’t giving our dogs what they need. But, I have a pretty pathetic list of likes and dislikes and I can only find so many dog-friendly foods in my house. We rarely buy new foods each week, just more of what we bought last week. So, anything at all would help. That's all of the bad habits and questions I can think of. Please let me know as soon as possible if you can find ANYTHING on ANY of the above topics. Thank you! I'd truly appreciate it. I'm not happy with how she is right now and I know she has the potential to be a great dog! I just want to get there without damaging her. Due to her past, I feel like anything I do can tip her over to being an uncaring dog, which will ruin her as a pet. So, any help you can provide will be IMMENSELY helpful! |
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| Welcome! Though your family has had experience with OES, it seems like you haven't. They sure are an experience on their own aren't they. OES stay teenagers for awhile, some longer than others. I wouldn't suggest Cesar Milan for any type of training. Getting a trainer that is used to herding breeds would be ideal. Good news is, she doesn't sound like an unusual OES, (she sounds very typical) just an untrained one. 1.) Barking when alone. Start with leaving for 5 mins while your home and just standing outside the door and gradually increase the time. Don't greet her when you come home or leave for 10 mins. It's ok for you to leave. Its a non schlant situation. It could also be from boredom. Sheepies also hate being away from their people, maybe a doggy daycare for scruffy. 2.) Paws. All sheepies do this to a certain extent. They are very pawsy. You just have to be consistent that she doesn't get any attention when she does this. Mess with her paws 2-3 times a daily. She will get used to her paws getting messed with. 3.) No instincts. OES are not goldens. They wont do a trick 100 times, then 100 more just for fun. They are smart but smarter than you. (not saying your not smart) They have to be convinced that its worth doing what you are saying. They will train you before you train them and with out you noticing. Finding their motivation is key. Getting a trainer probably would be best, it helped me with my OES. Especially with keeping her attention. We don't just do basic obedience, we do rally obedience also. They need the mental stimulation daily!!!! 4.) Dog or Human? Nilf is good. Nothing in life is free. I doubt the people had to train scruffy to think she is human. OES tend to think for themselves. 5.) Hyperactivity and Barking in Excitement. The fact that shes running when you release her say she needs more exercise. OES are working dogs. They need both mental and physical work every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. 6.) Barking when Playing. I have no idea...Lily does this. She barks when she plays, barks when she herds other dogs. I just make sure she plays with dogs that are ok with it. Every OES I've ever met are talkers. You probably need a trainer for this girl. OES are wonderful, extremely stubborn, smart and independent but completely dependent at the same time. I wouldn't use a collar for pulling. Throat damage comes to mind. OES all have different jobs. Some are therapy dogs, some do nose work, obedience, agility, herding (Find a place that does instinct testing for this) They can do almost anything but it's very rare that you will find one that doesn't need a job. We do not give our dogs people food. On occasion they get blueberries, blackberries or carrots but that is vary rarely. The blackberries they pick those themselves in the summer. Good luck, hope this helps some. |
AnInnocentEvil wrote: Welcome! Though your family has had experience with OES, it seems like you haven't. They sure are an experience on their own aren't they. OES stay teenagers for awhile, some longer than others. I wouldn't suggest Cesar Milan for any type of training. Getting a trainer that is used to herding breeds would be ideal. Good news is, she doesn't sound like an unusual OES, (she sounds very typical) just an untrained one. 1.) Barking when alone. Start with leaving for 5 mins while your home and just standing outside the door and gradually increase the time. Don't greet her when you come home or leave for 10 mins. It's ok for you to leave. Its a non schlant situation. It could also be from boredom. Sheepies also hate being away from their people, maybe a doggy daycare for scruffy. 2.) Paws. All sheepies do this to a certain extent. They are very pawsy. You just have to be consistent that she doesn't get any attention when she does this. Mess with her paws 2-3 times a daily. She will get used to her paws getting messed with. 3.) No instincts. OES are not goldens. They wont do a trick 100 times, then 100 more just for fun. They are smart but smarter than you. (not saying your not smart) They have to be convinced that its worth doing what you are saying. They will train you before you train them and with out you noticing. Finding their motivation is key. Getting a trainer probably would be best, it helped me with my OES. Especially with keeping her attention. We don't just do basic obedience, we do rally obedience also. They need the mental stimulation daily!!!! 4.) Dog or Human? Nilf is good. Nothing in life is free. I doubt the people had to train scruffy to think she is human. OES tend to think for themselves. 5.) Hyperactivity and Barking in Excitement. The fact that shes running when you release her say she needs more exercise. OES are working dogs. They need both mental and physical work every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. 6.) Barking when Playing. I have no idea...Lily does this. She barks when she plays, barks when she herds other dogs. I just make sure she plays with dogs that are ok with it. You probably need a trainer for this girl. OES are wonderful, extremely stubborn, smart and independent but completely dependent at the same time. I wouldn't use a collar for pulling. Throat damage comes to mind. OES all have different jobs. Some are therapy dogs, some do nose work, obedience, agility, herding (Find a place that does instinct testing for this) They can do almost anything but it's very rare that you will find one that doesn't need a job. We do not give our dogs people food. On occasion they get blueberries, blackberries or carrots but that is vary rarely. The blackberries they pick those themselves in the summer. Good luck, hope this helps some. I have to agree with all that this post says. Domino (though still a puppy since he is 14 months) barks when playing outside or with other dogs (so does the other sheepdog he plays with who is almost 3). I would recommend a soft muzzle for trimming the nails, it doesn't hurt them and they forget once it's gone that they had one on (no one wants to be bit and some dogs never like this process). they are smart and if they haven't had enough exercise they will run around a yard at full speed to burn off energy, we say Domino is running around the yard like a crazy man. I find that when Domino has his mind on something else he forgets all of his training so it's a constant thing and we used clicker training with him. Good luck she may just be a little more stubborn then some.. |
| All good advice. And I will reiterate the need for a good trainer. Our trainer not only does obedience, but agility and weight pulling. Having Benson in those extra activities has been wonderful for keeping her mentally stimulated as well as giving her a good outlet for her excess energy. Good luck! It sounds like you have quite a few years of bad habits to work through. |
| I have to say, I had no idea I'd get so many responses right off the bat! I'm thrilled! Thank you so much for your help! I'll be sure to look into all of this. By chance, do you live in Southern California, USA? If you do, then could I get the number to your trainer? Also, is there a facility that already has an agility course set up, like a doggie Gym? How would you recommend I go about training Scruffy to pull things? I wasn't thinking a collar at all! I knew I'd need a harness. I just would like the process steps. The materials I can figure out through experience and common sense. Thank you so much and I'm really sorry to have to ask for anything. I must sound like an idiot asking for everything! I'll do some research of my own as soon as my homework is done. I'm in college so I've got to stay on top of my homework or it won't end up good for me. Also, why do you not recommend Cesar Millan? Also, we have Scruffy in her cage when we aren't home. This keeps her from getting into the trash cans. Just thought this information might help. Again, thank you so much for all of your help! Even if I don't receive anymore responses, I have enough to start researching and start training, so thank you! |
| This is why this forum is so wonderful!!!!!! We all love our sheepies....your sheepie...any sheepie!!! And whatever we can do to help, we will!!! This forum has great people who have had the experience and love for this breed for a lifetime. We have many trainers, breeders, vets and vet-tecs..and just regular people like me. Please allow us to give you advice, suggestions, some may work?? and some may not...But we will always try to help Good luck and keep us posted!!!  |
BuffyMuffyScruffy19 wrote: I have to say, I had no idea I'd get so many responses right off the bat! I'm thrilled! Thank you so much for your help! I'll be sure to look into all of this. By chance, do you live in Southern California, USA? If you do, then could I get the number to your trainer? Also, is there a facility that already has an agility course set up, like a doggie Gym? How would you recommend I go about training Scruffy to pull things? I wasn't thinking a collar at all! I knew I'd need a harness. I just would like the process steps. The materials I can figure out through experience and common sense. Thank you so much and I'm really sorry to have to ask for anything. I must sound like an idiot asking for everything! I'll do some research of my own as soon as my homework is done. I'm in college so I've got to stay on top of my homework or it won't end up good for me. Also, why do you not recommend Cesar Millan? Also, we have Scruffy in her cage when we aren't home. This keeps her from getting into the trash cans. Just thought this information might help. Again, thank you so much for all of your help! Even if I don't receive anymore responses, I have enough to start researching and start training, so thank you! I live in Washington state. Unless your willing to commute at least 15 hours, I can't really suggest a trainer. A majority on this forum unfortunately live on the east coast or midwest. (sad for us west coasters) I don't know about training to pull but I bet if you look into a local siberian husky club or malamute club they would know. Don't feel bad for asking. Sheepies are different than any other dog I've ever met. They also bring the most joy. Cesar is old school. Domination instead of positive reinforcement. He works to brake the dog down first. His techniques are only a quick fix. He gets bit quite often if you watch the show. I find that dogs trust you and are more eager to work for you if they get rewarded. The reward differs on the dog of course. (pet, praise, play, treat) If we are talking tv trainers, I prefer more victoria stillwell methods. Crate training is good! Both my dogs are crate trained. Does she whine or bark in the crate while you are home? Make sure you only let her out when she has been quiet. You can also do the leaving thing with her in the crate. Everyone here is great! We are all sheepie obsessed. Post pics of scruffy for us. Never can get too many sheepie pictures!!! |
| Scruffy DOES whine when we forget to bring her out of the cage! And she also barks when she knows we're in the next room and she's outside. I know OES need to be with the shepherd or the family, so I understand the whining. Its just annoying. And I'll be sure to do just as you said as soon as I can! On Victoria Stillwell, I've watched a couple episodes of her show, but I can't remember the title. Do you remember what it was? I'll be sure to post pictures as soon as I can. I'm not sure how to get the pictures form my phone onto my computer, but I'll do some playing around when my homework's not in jeopardy! Also, do you use a clicker? Can you tell me some benefits, downfalls and how to go about clicker training? A clicker seems a lot better than raising my voice to call across the cul-de-sac, especially when my allergies are in full swing. And speaking of vets...I want to be a vet, but I'm having trouble finding a place that'll take me as a volunteer, let alone an employee. Does anyone know where I can find a vet clinic that'll take me on as either a volunteer or employee? Thanks again for everything you've done! I really appreciate it and I'll be sure to let you all know on how Scruffy's improving and I'll be on this site for the rest of my days I love it so much! |
| It's me or the dog. There is even one with sheepies!! Season 1 episode 19 bumble and doogle. I do not use a clicker but I use the same premise as a clicker. They can be extremely helpful! I use the word yes instead of a click. Clickers don't work with calling the dog, its more that is the behavior I want. Keep calling and keep asking til they can't say no. A lot of shelters need volunteers. That could be a good place to start too. If your really interested in sledding/pulling/biking with your sheepie, I can ask a friend how to start. He works off and on with Jeff King and has one of his dogs. If you don't know who that is, that's ok. He placed 3rd this year in the Iditarod. I wouldn't know who he was if my friend didn't talk about it all the time. He is obsessed with sledding and stuff like that as much as we are about sheepies! Most definitely keep us updated! |
| Would you please ask Mr King? I really think that this is a good idea for Scruffy! Also, I can take the male Golden with Scruffy, since he likes to pull things, too, thus freeing up Fetch time so I can bond with my Sasi, the female Golden. We adopted a new cat and I've been focusin gon Simba, the cat, and Sasi feels left out and unwanted, so freeing up Fetch time will help us all around! So, will you please ask your friend to talk to Mr King? Also, thanks for all of your advice thus far! I've got enough to keep me busy for a long time! |
| I will email him tonight about the basics. I'm sure basic obedience comes into play for the start of it. His dog puts mine to shame and he's never had any formal classes. |
| Wonderful! Thank you so much! |
| This is what he said besides basic obedience. Basic training for sledding/pulling. Get him trained on directional commands.. basically just say the direction name whenever you turn that way on a leash till they are recognized.. Another good way to get started, is having them in harness, dragging around a block of wood or something weighted. The pulling part will come naturally, once they feel a line tug on a harness, and get praised for it, they take off! |
| That's perfect! Just what I need! Thank you so much! Will you please extend my deepest thanks to Mr King? Thank you, thank you, thank you!! |
| We dog sled in the winter, and cart in the fall to condition. I can get you more info later. It's a bit crazy here getting ready for Nationals next week, and working 12 hr shifts at work until I take off. Here's a couple teasers though.... In a 2 dog team, 2 mile race -  Carting in ND at training camp!   and mushing into the MN sunset....  We also do weight pull - Chewie's a weight pull Champion with 2 organizations. His personal best wheel pull is 2324#.  |
| Oh wow!! And it doesnt do anything to their hips? |
| He also added this. It shouldn't be an issue if they aren't exceeding their capabilities. I started mine with the weighted part... played fetch/chase, with a harness on to get used to it, then added a small 2lb weight and slow brought it up to a 20lb weight all while playing fetch and stuff, so he got used to it being a fun thing. general rule, a adult dog can hold up 1/3 of their weight, and pull about their weight on flat ground. I might add that I personally have never done this with my dogs. My friend did this for a living and trained just dogs for iditarod and sled pulling tours. It's definitely fun to watch him work with his alaskan husky. Got sheep is an excellent resource. She does all sorts of cool things with her dogs. |
| sounds great! Thanks! I'll talk to her as soon as I can. Umm, i weigh 140 lbs, roughly. if i modified a wagon and sat on it, would Scruffy be able to pull me, if Max is there to help her? Max is a full grown male Golden. |
Some options scooter racing -   practicing - conditioning and training are key. We start slow and increase miles over time...   and the same dog, BTW   |
| Great! Thanks so much for all of your help! |
| Super Chewie |
| Had lots of fun last winter, Joy pulled the "kick-kick" Click below: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=28 ... =3&theater So much things they can learn to love, that make them feel important to you. Here's my first oes - lovely darling Aurora:  Aurora (old pic) was my first oes and she really loved working. She didn't have much ability to conncentrate before she got more than 4 years old. And she was doing lots of crazy things......she loved everybody a little to much  However she fancied clicker training so much that she jumped a meter high up of joy when we left the house to go to the obedience training. And she became the best in her class  (I got tired of it.....to much fiddling......so Joy hasn't learn anything. She is an "illiterate"......well we do have a lots of fun anyway.) |
| You have brought a none pack animal into an established pack, this has upset the balance, you probably from your posts are used to having your pack obey as you have brought them up your way, these well behaved Goldens now have another influence that is probably confusing the alpha situation. Also scruffy being a bitch will be more troublesome they are bossy by nature males are more relaxed and easy going. (true across all species) It will take a long time to correct what she has experienced through her life so far, with OES it'll take a stronger pack leader than you are used to with the Goldens, you have to stick with it. If you read this forum through you'll soon discover that OES have their own minds and a common post comment is that in formal obedience classes they are great, top marks etc, soon as they are home it's back to the playful/wilful behaviour! They require constant love and hard work. |
| Lebatussa, I havent heard of an OES going hiking. Sounds very cool! and making her carry everything due to her training is a great idea! lol. I can't wait until Scruffy is as useful. Maybe she'll settle down once she has a job and expends most of her energy. I'm currently saving up for the harness and wagon, but that backpack will be the next thing on my list! Archie's Slave, thanks so much for the advice. It actually now explains why Sasi, the female Golden, is the alpha of the dog pack rather than her brother. Also, I'm going to do everything I can to be the leader Scruffy needs me to be! |
BuffyMuffyScruffy19 wrote: Lebatussa, I havent heard of an OES going hiking. Sounds very cool! and making her carry everything due to her training is a great idea! lol. I can't wait until Scruffy is as useful. Maybe she'll settle down once she has a job and expends most of her energy. I'm currently saving up for the harness and wagon, but that backpack will be the next thing on my list! Archie's Slave, thanks so much for the advice. It actually now explains why Sasi, the female Golden, is the alpha of the dog pack rather than her brother. Also, I'm going to do everything I can to be the leader Scruffy needs me to be! Packing is very good for a dog - it can make a shorter walk (on days you have less time, for instance) be more of a workout. We do it as a sport as well - 10 mile pack hikes.   The pack needs to be properly fitted and match the size of the dog. The pack should put most of the weight on the withers, NOT on the spine and back of the dog. As in everything, start out simple - just getting them used to the pack, then fill out the panniers for width with crunched up paper or some light objects. Then you increase weight and distance and terrain (not all at the same time!) as you all get in better shape Also - in all of these activities - NEVER do it on pavement. You want terrain with some give in it, for the safety of joints and structure. Grass, natural surfaces only. |
| Sounds wonderful! I will make notes in my notebook that I've dedicated to Scruffy's training. Thank you so much! |
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