Help needed with Zeke
Today was Zeke's first day alone and it did not go well at all. When I entered the house, I was hit with the stench of poop. Then I walked into the downstairs kitchen and saw it. He crapped and peed all over the kitchen. And of course he walked all thru it. So I'm guessing it's separation anxiety. The question is, how do I stop this immediately? I can't keep coming home to this. If my mother was to see that, she'll open the door and push him out. I could bring him to daycare, but that's expensive. and how does that solve the problem? Do I need to take some time off to be with him? I think, maybe I should put Brick with him down there, but will that just result in 2 dogs walking thru crap? Then I think, well, maybe it's the basement. Will he be better upstairs with Brick or will that result in poop being all over the kitchen upstairs? All 3 of us would be murdered if that were to happen. I need some help. And fast! Thanks. |
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| I'm wrapping up at work, but I'll send you something later this evening. |
| When you say "down there" is he in the basement or something away from everyone else? That might add to the problem. Could he somehow be put in an area in the main part of the house? Are you able to come home at lunch or get someone to come in and let him out until he gets adjusted? Since he just went to the vet and no problems seen with his poop, my guess is this was a nervous reaction to being in a new place and then left alone. I'll let others give their advice but perhaps if possible a mid day visit home for a while until he gets adjusted? |
| A mid day visit may help, but it takes me 25 minutes to get to & from work. Not sure I can afford to be gone that long. We only get a half hour for lunch. I'm not sure who I could ask to come in. The unknown thing is when he messed. Was it one hour after I left? If it was, coming home at lunch would do no good. Judging by the amount of mess, though, he messed multiple times. |
| Was he previously crated? A crate isn't necessarily a bad thing. Did your ex leave him loose? Was there a routine to leaving? Sometimes that can be the difference between good and bad. He may just need a short adjustment time too. |
| The less changes in his routine, the smoother it will go. So stuff like food (which I know you want to switch), feeding times, pattern of when he goes out for bathroom breaks, times his humans come and go, all come into play. On the other hand - if you KNOW you will have radically different changes in patterns, it often better to switch right away, and basically just get it over with. Go to what it will be with you. Then they adjust and you move on. I'm actually in the midst of some of that right now - I've been babysitting 2 of Kristine's dogs this week. She's on a week long work sponsored trip, and her dogs are spread out through the "family". I have Luna, who is Bond's sister. I also have crazy Dazzle - the 5 yr old rescue girl who is just bonkers. Life in general stresses her...so I've had plenty of busyness here. 1st day home - left her on the porch gated with Chewie, Bond and Riley. She broke down the gate, and got into the bag of pre-portioned dog food for her and Luna. Now I have stressed dog who also just overloaded herself...yep, it was poop fest. I made sure it was all coming out well, then dosed her with Immodium (generic). Immodium calms the overactive peristalsis - the motility of the bowels. Often once they get rolling, they can't stop. The loose poop is loose because it's going too fast through the GI tract and is still full of water (and that's why constipated poop is dry - it has moved too slowly and loses too MUCH water). So I would dose him with an Immodium when needed. Before you go to work would be an excellent time.  That way when he stresses, the guts don't go crazy...so much anyway. I would start putting him where you plan to keep him when at work - and it should also be a safe (think stressing dog) spot that is easy to clean...might as well be practical! Today was a work day here - and Dazzle was crated in a large sized plastic crate, covered for a more den-like feeling. My son stopped over to let dogs out as I was gone from 6:30am until 7:30pm. As predicted - she freaked out and went crazy as soon as he got near her crate. I believe his text was worded "she was bat #### crazy" - he's 26.  So, he had to leave her in - and let everyone (Luna included) out. Luna was crated next to Dazzle in a covered wire crate. Good news with Dazz - we had a dry and poop free crate!!!  And she was her happy self when I came home and let them all out - but she was peeing as soon as she could!These two also are used to having a human outside with them to potty - mine are not. First day - both had house accidents. My bad...as soon as I started going out with them, they did their business instead of standing at the door waiting for me.  Now after 3 days, they join my guys and do their business - they found the pattern here. I hope some of this makes sense and helps.  |
| If I was gone for a short time, I'd leave him loose. When gone at work, I'd put him in his crate. Not sure what my ex did with him. Actually, she must not have crated him, as I took the crate at the split. He's great when someone is home, not so much otherwise. He barks and cries when left alone. Because I have to work tomorrow, I had to do something. So I put his crate in the garage (no worries, the garage is under the house and part of the basement; the temps are cool). I'll put him in the crate before I leave. I may even give him a couple Benadryl to quiet him down. If he messes, then it will only be in his crate and on him. It will be then easy to get him outside for a hosing. And then I can just hose out the crate and garage. But what do you think of not feeding him in the morning so there's nothing in his system? |
| Has he taken Benedryl before? If not, I wouldn't try it when you aren't home. It can also have the opposite affect - and if he's never had it, you won't know how it will affect him. Not feeding - less food means less in the gut, but if he's having anxiety and stress, he still will be able to poop. And if he has too empty of a stomach, that can backfire too. No food affects them similar to us - all that stomach acid, and no food.... Good idea of the crate in the garage. I was fully anticipating needing to do that today with Dazzle (washing dog and crate)...but I lucked out. |
CamVal1 wrote: Hi all, Today was Zeke's first day alone and it did not go well at all. When I entered the house, I was hit with the stench of poop. Then I walked into the downstairs kitchen and saw it. He crapped and peed all over the kitchen. And of course he walked all thru it. So I'm guessing it's separation anxiety. The question is, how do I stop this immediately? I can't keep coming home to this. If my mother was to see that, she'll open the door and push him out. I could bring him to daycare, but that's expensive. and how does that solve the problem? Do I need to take some time off to be with him? I think, maybe I should put Brick with him down there, but will that just result in 2 dogs walking thru crap? Then I think, well, maybe it's the basement. Will he be better upstairs with Brick or will that result in poop being all over the kitchen upstairs? All 3 of us would be murdered if that were to happen. I need some help. And fast! Thanks. I guess I missed the post that you were taking Zeke--Congrats! Sorry the little guy had such a rough day today. Saw the advice from the 'experts'--they know much more than I do so I won't add. Good luck and give both Brick and Zeke a big Hug from us! |
| Dawn, I've been giving him the Benadryl the last few nights. My vet said it was a good idea. His first night here, he wouldn't settle. Constantly turning, a little pacing, and a lot of licking. But he's had the Benadryl for the past 2 nights and it's worked wonders. He settles right down and is quiet right thru the night. |
CamVal1 wrote: Dawn, I've been giving him the Benadryl the last few nights. My vet said it was a good idea. His first night here, he wouldn't settle. Constantly turning, a little pacing, and a lot of licking. But he's had the Benadryl for the past 2 nights and it's worked wonders. He settles right down and is quiet right thru the night. That's good then. Although I would have a plan in place to wean him from it pretty soon. I'd hate to see him live drugged on benedryl just to keep him calm.  |
| Dawn, The real reason I'm giving him the Benadryl was to stop the constant licking of his paws. He might have an allergy and the first thing we want to do is get him transitioned off his junk food to something much better. If that works, then great. If not, then we'll look to see if anything is triggering the constant licking (and I'm assuming itchiness). If the side effect of the Benadryl is keeping him calm when we're not there, then I'm OK with that. For the short term. Hopefully he'll get over his separation anxiety soon, so that I can just leave him with Brick when we're gone. I never intended to give him that long term. Just till I get his licking/itchiness and separation anxiety issues worked out. I fed him very little this morning so as not to stress his stomach. He did get a couple Benadryls, too. I put him in the crate (which is in the garage now) and he didn't make a fuss at all. My mother said he barked once or twice, but nothing like the last 2 mornings. She peeked in on him as she left, and he was just lying in his crate, quiet. So crossing my fingers that today goes well. |
| I hope so too! Zeke deserves it...and all of you living with him as well. |
| Ugh! Sorry to hear your transition is going less than smoothly. I think folks like Dawn are going to know what's best to do for you. But in my personal experience, when Tonks and Luna are having any sort of behavioral issues, whether it's stress or if I'm anticipating stress (like being on the road, or an extended stay out of town), them being disobedient, or them raring for a fight, I always turn to training. for us, a tired dog is a happy dog. I know you may not have the time (or inclination) in the mornings, but what if you took Zeke for a nice long walk before going to work? Or what we call a "Big Playtime" in your yard before you head out; encourage the dogs to go nuts running and playing, maybe fetching or wrestling? I find tiring my girls out can help them to be calmer; even if I do 30 minutes of training- just putting them through their commands, maybe pushing them to try some new things, leaves them wanting nothing more than to have a relaxing nap. Taking care of some of that nervous energy may be a little bit of a help. |
| Excellent point, Allison. One I totally take for granted as we are always busy and doing stuff with the dogs. On that vein -I took Kristine's two girls with to the Paw when I taught class on Monday - keep them busy, thinking and tired...ahhhhh |
| Well, he messed in his crate today. And then of course he paces and moves around a lot inside of the crate, so it gets all over the crate, outside of the crate, and all over him. <sigh> Fortunately he was in the garage. I ran him to the back yard and gave him a hose bath. Then washed the crate in the road and hosed out the garage. I guess this will be a daily occurance until he settles in. The exercise before work is a great idea. However, I have to be to work pretty early and it's all I can do to get there on time as it is. Hell, I'm late a lot of the time (good thing I'm salaried). I called a nearby day care place, but they want a application filled out, his records, and then they want to do a temperament evaluation. So that will take a bunch of days before he could get in. I also looked up a dog walking service, but they want an app. and to visit before they'll do it. So that's a few days. Giving him daily baths, washing the crate and hosing out the garage every day will get old real fast. At least my mother doesn't seem to mind he has accidents in the garage. Could there be something physically wrong with him that he can't hold it? He checked out great at the vets. His blood work and urine was perfect, according to his vet. His poop was clean. Could the transition to the better food be causing it? I didn't think I was giving him much of the new stuff in the old stuff. I may go to work tomorrow just to grab my computer and work from home, to determine how long he can go without company. |
| Did you try the immodium? Seriously - it works. It slows down the bowels that are cramping and causing those loose stools. Sometimes they get stuck in overdrive, so to speak. It helps break the cycle and get things back to normal. Unless you really want to keep those loose poops coming.... ?? |
| Dawn, I haven't. I assume you mean the pill type of Immodium and not the liquid type, right? And do I give it right when we get up, or just before I leave? What strength Immodium and what dosage? |
| Has Zeke had Immodium before? If he's not had it before, and not had an MDR-1 test done, thats one of the substances that can be an issue. though it might be only in very high dosages. I'll look online and get back... |
| here's what the University of Washington site says: Loperamide (ImodiumTM; antidiarrheal agent). At doses used to treat diarrhea, this drug will cause neurological toxicity in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. This drug should be avoided in all dogs with the MDR1 mutation. You can see the full list of reactive drugs here: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/drugs.aspx I only mention it because I know you'd mentioned wanting to have Zeke tested for the mutated gene. Honestly; check the full list of drugs. If he's had any of those and not gotten sick, then it's likely he doesn't have the mutated gene and would be fine to take Immodium. |
| Thanks Allison. He's not been tested yet, so I guess that's out. The only drug on that list that I know he's taken is ivermectin, in his Heartgard. But it says that in preventative doses, it doesn't cause any issues. |
CamVal1 wrote: Thanks Allison. He's not been tested yet, so I guess that's out. The only drug on that list that I know he's taken is ivermectin, in his Heartgard. But it says that in preventative doses, it doesn't cause any issues. do you have an emergency vet; a 24 hour place? Maybe they can recommend an anti-diahrrea med that would be safe to use. Or, in a pinch, see about adding pumpkin to his food. I know in cats it will both loosen constipated stool and dry out diarrhea. It's sort of a miracle fiber. Quite a bit about it comes up if you Google "pumpkin for dog diarrhea" More info here: http://raisinghealthydogs.com/discover- ... n-for-dogs |
| I don't think he has diarrhea. Rather his poops are formed, and he walks thru it, lies in it, etc. And then he's peeing as well, which is making the worst mess imaginable. If he would just poop in one corner of the crate and then not go near it, that wouldn't be so bad. But he walks when he poops, so there's probably a trail of poop in his crate that he gets all over. And then he pees. |
| is it possible he needs some housebreaking re-enforcement? Maybe that skill just isn't as set as you'd thought? If it's not loose, then he's deciding it's okay to go in the house. I don't know how one counters that; maybe a consultation with a trainer...? |
| Just getting back - seeing he hasn't had the MDR1 done, then you will need to skip that. Not worth the gamble. I forget that not all dogs get tested. Chewie's normal/normal, and Bond was cleared by parentage (both his parents are normal/normal), so they can have it. And yes - I use the tabs - one usually does it just fine, but like humans can be repeated if needed. Pepto Bismol is another one you can try - it's not in the same family of drugs. |
| He wasn't like this at all when I had him years ago. I'm not sure what they did for his pottying. Or maybe they had split shifts so someone was always home to let him out whenever he wanted? What's funny is that I've only seen him go poop once or twice since he's been back. On Monday, my mother was here and he was in the house with her & Brick with no problems. On Tuesday, he did not poop in the morning, he messed in the house when no one was home, and I don't think he pooped again that day. On Wednesday, he did not poop in the morning, he messed in the crate when no one was home, and I don't think he pooped again that day. And he didn't poop this morning for me either. I put him outside, he'll run down the stairs, pee, and run back to the door. If I go out with him, he'll pee, and then run back to me, leaning against me. I get it. He's definitely anxious and nervous. Then I think, well, maybe I'll stop home during the day. But when do I go? How often do I go? But that's not a good solution for 2 reasons. One, he learns that I will cater to his schedule when it should be the other way around. And two, I'll probably get fired. I don't even want to go to work today for fear of what will be waiting when I come back. |
| I haven't had a Lot of experience with this, but just wanted to share a little of my fostering experience. I fostered a lot of out of control out door Great Pyrenees. I have alot of damaged wood work, carpeting, and door frames. I was always told that it takes some dogs at least 6 months too unpack their baggage. I would almost look at Zeke as being a rescue dog. He's in a new environment. What about giving him some frozen kongs too occupy his time. If he's not having runny poop I wouldn't think it would bother him. Thunder shirt maybe. I have even had luck with DAP collars and DAP plug ins. They worked with Mattie. It wouldn't hurt too try. We wish you luck. He will settle in, it will just take time. Lisa Frankie and Mattie. |
| I just talked with a behaviorist. She said job one is to find out what his eating and pottying schedule was with my ex. Then, and this is the biggie, I HAVE to get him to poop in the morning before I go to work. That will probably mean getting up early so we can go for a short walk to get things moving. And when he goes, to praise the heck out of him with treats. She said to praise him even if he just sniffs the ground, which he hasn't really done at all. She asked if someone could come in and let him out during the day but I asked if that was the right thing to do, as that would be telling the dog that I'll conform to your schedule instead of the other way around. She agreed with that. So he will be messing in the crate and on himself until he comes around to my schedule. Kinda sucks I'll be having to give him daily baths. And washing the crate. And hosing the garage every day. |
| Maybe if possible a few days to a week off from work? maybe half days? I know you wanted to get him into your routine. But maybe he needs easing. When I got mine as puppies I took some time off for potty training etc. Having that extra time right away to reinforce really helped. |
| ^^ I still may do that. I will DEFINITELY start walking him in the morning. I guess I'll be getting up at 4:30 AM. <groan> |
| Oh my that is a groan!!! Luckily I have flex time at work and come in either 8:15, 9:15 or 10:15 am. I like doing the early then I get home and still have time to do stuff. |
CamVal1 wrote: I just talked with a behaviorist. She said job one is to find out what his eating and pottying schedule was with my ex. Then, and this is the biggie, I HAVE to get him to poop in the morning before I go to work. That will probably mean getting up early so we can go for a short walk to get things moving. And when he goes, to praise the heck out of him with treats. She said to praise him even if he just sniffs the ground, which he hasn't really done at all. She asked if someone could come in and let him out during the day but I asked if that was the right thing to do, as that would be telling the dog that I'll conform to your schedule instead of the other way around. She agreed with that. So he will be messing in the crate and on himself until he comes around to my schedule. Kinda sucks I'll be having to give him daily baths. And washing the crate. And hosing the garage every day. Zeke has had his world turned upside down. He has no idea what happened to his owner, your old girlfriend, and doesn't understand she's not coming back. He misses her. The first thing you need to do is find out from your old friend what the dogs schedule was. That is the beginning and then you can tweak the schedule to what will work for you. I feel so bad for Zeke. You have to look at this through Zeke's eyes. Everything is different, food different, all the smells are different, his person is different, it's a lot for him to deal with and then he's left alone in a garage in a cage all day, or left alone in the basement. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, I'm just suggesting you to look at the situation through Zeke's eyes. Things will work out, but first you need to contact the former owner, so you can make a plan. Remember Old English Sheepdogs are creatures of habit. She asked if someone could come in and let him out during the day but I asked if that was the right thing to do, as that would be telling the dog that I'll conform to your schedule instead of the other way around. She agreed with that. Regarding the above quote: dogs don't think like that...whose going to conform to whose schedule. If I said that statement to a trainer and she agreed with me, I wouldn't go back to that trainer. I know it can be a pain to come home after work and have to clean the dog/pen/garage. My Violet, who will be 11 in two months, has times during the night, not often but does, where she forgets how to go out the doggy door and does her business in the house near the doggy door. Yes, I've stepped in it twice this week. I just clean it up and sterilize the space again, at 5:00 a.m. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. There are nights when I'm dead asleep and I hear her "wale" call so I know she's stuck somewhere in the house and can't get up. So I or Chuck get up and look for her and help her get up and come to the bedroom. We do this because we love her and can't imagine how life will be without her, so we just do. Zeke's tummy will finally calm down, he will adjust to his new home and these days will just be memories. Be patient. I hope Zeke is feeling better soon. |
| I was going to suggest the short walk to get things moving. We just had several weeks where Tonks would not poop. We had something like 60 days of rain from June first to August 15th, and the yard was a swamp. Tonks wouldn't go out long enough to poop, but did what you are describing; peed, and ran back to be let in. After I found poop just inside the door twice, I decided I needed to walk her before bed and when she got up in the morning, even if just up and down the street, to make sure she'd go. Literally within walking only one or two houses down, Tonks pooped every time. Also: is it possible that Zeke is accustomed to pooping on walks, so isn't going in the yard? Maybe he's holding it for a walk, and then finally going in the house when he can't hold it anymore? |
| Well, I caught a little break today. When I got home, I was expecting the worse, but pleasantly surprised that there was almost no mess in the crate. There was a very little bit of something in there but NOTHING like the past 2 days. I was so happy and just praised him over & over. I walked him briskly up the street and peed forever on a telephone pole, then walked him briskly down the street, then into the back yard, hooked him up to the cable where he proceeded to poop. And poop. Then he stopped for a while. Then he pooped some more. It was pretty soft, but formed. I kept praising him over & over again. There was still a little something in the crate, so I washed it and gave him another bath. It's pretty easy with him cuz he has no fur. Very nice. So I was very pleased today. Tomorrow I'll walk him before breakfast to hopefully get things moving before leaving for work. Keep fingers & paws crossed for a good day tomorrow. |
PROGRESS!!!!   Maybe it's just that he needs a little time to de-stress from the transition. |
| I bet some of it has to do with his schedule. When I dated her, my ex worked a lot of second shift hours. She would stay up to 1 or 2 AM. Not sure if she was still doing this the past few years, but if she was, that would make sense. Maybe Zeke was used to midnight or 1 AM as his last time out and 9 or 10 AM as his first time out. And I think they had a fenced yard, so he could run around a bit more to get him going. Let's hope we're on the right path. |
| So I just talked to my ex. It's just what I expected. She was working 3PM to 11PM. Zeke's first time out was 7 AM (her husband would let him out) and his last time out was about 11:40 PM. He didn't go to bed until midnight or 1 AM. He ate breakfast at 7 AM, dinner at 2 PM, and maybe a very small meal at 11:30 PM. A regular meal consisted of 1.5 cups of dry and a 1/3 of a 13.2 oz can of wet. The small meal might be a bunch of treats. She said he never messed in the house. |
| That explains a lot. We're late nighters ourselves, and it is almost impossible to get Benson moving with any enthusiasm before 9 am - often later. Then again, her last trip of the night is usually after midnight. On those rare occasions when we need to get her moving in the early morning, it's a huge disruption. And Helen's right, Zeke's entire world has been turned completely upside down. It's going to take some time to adjust. You'll get there together, though.  |
| Good news. I just took Zekels for a 5 minute walk to a large grassy area a few blocks from my house. He did good sniffins all the way there. I walked him on the training leash, so I let it all out when we got to the grassy area. He sniffed around and then......... he gave me a nice poop Yay Zekels!!  |
| Guess who delivered a nice poop this morning. So today is a big test. He pooped after work yesterday, last night before bed, and now this morning. Shall we wager on if he messes in his crate today? |
| Fingers and paws crossed for a clean crate when you get home! |
Jonsey wrote: Fingers and paws crossed for a clean crate when you get home! Yep, ditto that |
| I think he made it thru the day with no issues. When I got home, he was lying down (of course he stood up & starting dancing as soon as I opened the door  ).His crate is dry but there are paw prints on the tray. Not sure if he peed or maybe it a drool. Sounds weird, but I gave him a sniff test and I didn't smell urine. I quickly took him for our walk and he pooped nicely. I praised him and tried to treat him but he didn't want the treat. I'll probably stick him in the tub & wash his feet a little later. |
| The dampness is likely his paws sweating. |
| Sounds like Zeke is settling in. Yay for you and Zeke. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
Celebrate the small victories!  Will make you both feel better. Sounds like he is making progress, mentally & physically. |
| Im not sure how old your dog is and I cant even relate to 90% of the horror stories I read on this forum, dogs that are 8 or 9 months old and still not house broke or dogs eating socks or underwear or chewing up furniture stuff like that. I can only tell you what we did with Max who is my first OES, when we got him he was only 12 weeks old and our first instinct was to buy a gate and keep him in the kitchen during the night or when we were not home. I've got to tell you for a solid month we either woke up to the stench of poop and pee or we came home to it. Now when we were home Max had the run of the house in which we were constantly taking him outside to do his business but at night or if we left we always went through the mess all over again never really getting anywhere close to being house broke and it seemed to me we were repeating the same cycle all the time. So after about of month of this I decided to get a large crate and really get serious about the training, got to tell you it was the smartest thing we ever did about a week after we got the crate Max was completely house broke while it did take one extreme instance on the 6 th day and feeling guilty about it. But we had left for a couple of hrs and made sure he was taken out and made sure he hadn't ate very much anyway upon returning home he had pooped and pee'd from one end of his crate to the next I could see by his actions that he wasn't a happy camper and wanted out. I decided to leave him in his crate for a hr or so reminding him by my tone of voice that I wasn't a happy camper. anyway I finally took him out cleaned him and the crate up and we have never had a mess with him again, he's now 13 months old and completely house broken since he was about 20 weeks old. We have always bought him toys or big chew bones and have never had a problem with him chewing up furniture or anything else. He has since stopped spending the night in his crate and we have removed his crate from the house completely. I think sometimes we forget just how intelligent these companions can be, while we did regulate his food and water like no food or water after 6 pm unless you wanted to take him out around 11 pm to bed to make sure he's not holding it all night. I can honestly say I have not had any of the horror stories with Max that are on this forum I think most forget just how smart these animals are Max is the most faithful constant companion I have ever had and while he does have a stubborn streak we work it out. He loves to play Frisbee and jumps higher than any dog I have ever seen to catch one ( I do have to keep his hair around his eyes trimmed so he can see it) I hope everything works out for you or anyone else who's having problems because these companions are well worth the trouble. |
| Hi guest, Zeke is almost 7 yrs. It's not that he's not housebroken, because he is, but it's more that he's in a new environment, with new people, and a new schedule. He's doing much better now. He had to learn my schedule and my expectations. It will be another week or so before I move his crate back in the main part of the house, but I think we're on the right path. Speaking of the right path, his crate was clean & dry when I came home today. I took him on a short walk, then to my backyard, where he pooped. Good boy, Zeke!! |
| Glad to hear things are improving for you & Zeke |
| I had a dentist appt today, so I decided to stop home afterwards as my dentist is close to home. No issues with Zeke, so I take him out for a quick 4 block walk and back to the house to see if he'll potty. Sure enough, he goes #2. Awesome, right? Yes, but he needs to go before I go to work. Not at 10:15 in the morning. He hasn't had an accident since last Wednesday, but he still makes me nervous. Will he ever learn that he needs to go before I go to work? |
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