Pees and poos and Oes
Well My Oes Bailey is now 7 months and still PEES AND POOS at night! During the day he "gets it" most of the time. But at night not a chance. He doesn;t sleep at night but stands like a centry at the baby gate for hours! Even if he has been walked for miles and had a busy day? We had to seperate Giz from Him at night because he was dragging Giz from his bed and peeing on it. He seems to think the dog beds are training sheets? Dh has taken to cleaning the area with Js fluid because of the smell of the pee? I Am wondering is this making things better or worse? Personally I think Js fluid smells like dog pee and reminds me of RSPCA kennels? I used Lemon cleaner but Dh thinks it isn;t "good enough?" I watched NCIS - I know Lenon can kill the smell of Decomp - so pee should be easy? - The house and Dog smells like a toilet! I am in despair! Dh keeps going on about a crate but NO ONE LISTENS WHEN I TELL THEM WE DON:T HAVE ROOM FOR ONE!! AM I TO LEVITATE MY DISABLED BLIND SON OVER THIS THING? There is no room here for a crate. There is no fur left on the Giz and no sign after over a month of it growing back. - HAd to use anti- chew and now I think it made Giz bald? - Sometimes I think I made a big mistake! Other days bailey puts his paw in my hand and I just hope it gets better before I get the the murder thought stage! Oes - I am not a very good OES mother? |
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| I sympathize with you. We have a 3-1/2 yo male which was the hardest dog I ever had to potty train. We had two previous OES and they did take longer but not like Butchy. We just kept plugging away and finally we had success. It can get frustrating but to me they are well worth the trouble. I know there are those that think there is something wrong with those of us that have issues but like I said he was not my first dog and I did know what I was doing. |
| I'm of no help, but I am sorry you are having a hard time. I'm sure other people on the site will have good advice for you. |
| Sounds like you really have your hands full. I hope you haven't taken on more than you can handle! First, Baily is clearly staking his claim. I don't think he is using the bed as a pee pad, he is making it his. Sounds like he is trying to claim everything as his and not Giz's. JMO I do not know what js fluid is. What you need is an enzymatic cleaner to clean the spots. Once an area is soiled they often return and go there because of the lingering smell. If you can smell it your dog CERTAINLY can. I don't know what products are available in Ireland, but I'm sure if you google it you can find something, you may have to ship it. Also, 7 months is still on the edge of young. Many of us have had accidents up to that age. Consistent accidents, not as much. You may want to change the last feed/water time and see if that helps. There are many things I haven't mentioned- someone else may chime in. Bottom line is, you have a pattern going on, you must make changes to interrupt that pattern. Shellie |
| Ask how he was raised. Many of us don't use paper, rather towels and such in the whelping box. Makes it much easier to keep clean, but have noticed it can be harder to potty train some of these dogs. A certain someone, I mention no names, apparently thought beds were for peeing on long after she was allegedly potty trained, and lord knows older than 7 mos. It didn't resolve itself until a housemate ate the bed...<g> Once peed on, it becomes a pee pad, unfortunately. I'm convinced it doesn't matter what you use - I'd wash the bed in bleach to no avail. You may need to just put the bed away until further notice. Not making it through the night without pooping suggests you may want to review when you feed and/or possibly even his stress level (separation anxiety)? That is a little odd, though there may be a perfectly good reason (good reason to him, that is. Kristine |
| To be honest, no you are not. This isn't meant to be harsh but you've been given lots of advice by knowledgeable people here who have lots of experience in housetraining. Rather than actually trying them you've continued doing what you were doing all along. You knew these methods weren't working or you wouldn't have asked questions. People here are happy to help but when someone only finds excuses not to improve matters, it makes one wonder if they really do want the dog. You just don't sound happy. A puppy should bring joy to your family. If this is happening in your family, it doesn't come through in your posts. Where there's a will, there's a way and you're not displaying a lot of "will". There's no magic bullet to make housebreaking, or any other training, happen. It takes work and dedication and patience. You have a lot on your plate with your family so maybe bringing a puppy into your life now was not the best for either you or the dog.  |
I actually think you are a bit of a lady dog. - I have tried to do lots of things suggested. - Changing feed times , changing amounts of feed, changing walks , changing bedding, changing cleaning fluid, changing toys and taking giz away and only giving suppervised playtiimes. - You are certainly not a very nice or helpful poster. ( You are using this to just simply get at me! ) This is just a difficult dog to potty train. He does go to the yard in the daytime and he does pee on command. but at night he does not. IF YOUR SUCH AN EXPERT maybe you can suggest something you think I haven't done? Appart from climb in the dog basket - I am sure in your capacity as OES rescue volunteer you are more than able to give me some better advice than this? I have been rescuing OES dogs for 30yrs and have had much joy from them all. Bailey is the youngest I have had and therefor his needs are a might different than I am used to - that does not mean that I am not happy with other aspects of having Bailey. Your nasty comments certainly don;t encourage folk to seek advice if all they are going to get is a nasty horrible comment back from someone who is obviously an EXPERT on all aspects of OES care and correct home environments?  Oes |
| I actually agree whole heartedly with Nita. She is expressing her own opinion which she has a right to. She was polite and straight forward about it. We want to see you succeed with your pup but maybe you have taken on more than you can handle? All training issues require more consistency, more training, more time, socialisation... as Nita says if what you are doing isn't working, why not try what others are suggesting? If you try crate training, even just at night, perhaps you could put a crate in a corner of your room where no one will trip over it (blind or otherwise) and you will then hear the pup immediately if he needs to go out and then gradually adjust things so that he doesn't need to go out in the middle of the night. Start from square one as if he was a new pup and not trained at all. |
| Look, there's no point in candy-coating a response to you. Obviously you only hear what you want to, preferring people to coddle you and feel sorry for your situation than to get a grip on things and deal with them. BTW, I don't mind being called a bitch. Actually I consider it sort of a compliment  |
| I have found if the dog is crated at night or confined to a very small area where he can't get away from his urine or poo, he'll try harder to "hold it". I am housebreaking 2 puppies at the same time right now & quite frankly it can get very frustrating. And I have been in this breed for 30 years. I have had to get used to "implementing" on a constant basis. If one thing doesn't work after a few days I try it another way. As an expample, I was used to my adult dogs who pretty much wait until we humans are up & moving to go out for the 1st time of the day. That meant no alarm clock. Well, that didn't work with the pups. I finally decided to start setting an alarm for 6AM & heading straight to their kennels to let them out. Nothing else first. After about 1 week I noticed that about 50% of the time one or the other was pottying in the kennel probably a few minutes before I got there. So I adjusted MY schedule. I went to bed 30 minutes earlier & set my alarm for 5:30AM & guess what? DRY, CLEAN KENNELS in the morning! And not only that but we are ALL happier! I am not grumpy because I do not have to clean kennels 1st thing in the morning & the pups are happy because I am not grumpy! This forum is filled with a lot of very helpful, knowlegeable people. Some who have been in this breed a short time & others who have been in the breed for decades, living under all kinds of circumstances & many of us with multiple dogs. When someone asks a question, those of us who might have an answer, try to help out. All we are doing is throwing out suggestions of things that have worked for us in the past with all our different dogs. If you think some of these ideas might work, try them. If you think they won't work under your circumstances, don't try them. But please remember, none of us raise our dogs under exactly the same circumstances. You have to take a look at your family's circumstances, what is 1st priority in your life & prioritize things on down the line that way. That's where the implementing comes into practice. Hopefully by doing so you will be able to find some solutions to make both you & the dog & the rest of the faimly enjoy your dog. |
Sorry, I wan't logged in when I sent the last post. What can I say, it's going into a holiday weekend & my brain missed that one!  |
| Okay, since I housetrained without using a crate at all, I will tell you exactly what I did. First thing in the morning puppy goes out, and you go outside with the puppy. When he does his business, praise like it's the best thing that ever could have happened, ever. The praising really made a difference for us. Once I started going out with them and doing lots of praising, there were a lot less accidents. Once you've got all the important morning things you have to do in your life out of the way, feed puppy. At 7 months, 2 meals a day is good. Go straight outside with him after he eats. If he doesn't seem like he needs to go, head back in. Repeat every 10 minutes or so (and keep an eye on puppy) until he does go, and LOTS of praise then. Try to make a note of how long after he ate it was, that'll make things easier. If he seems to poo around the same amount of time after eating every day, you can just take him out around that time. Eevee has to go out within 15 minutes of eating or she is liable to poo on the floor, she can't help it. It's a lot of food for her belly to have in there! If he's having accidents during the day still, take him out every 3 hours, more if you need to, and remember to give lots of praise when he does his business outside! Four or five hours before you plan on going to bed for the night, give him his second feeding. Outside again like with the first feeding. Take him out again after the second feeding about 2 hours after, and another time right before bed. Eevee usually poos twice after she eats at night, once right after food and again a couple hours later. Now, instead of shutting him in the other room alone, put him in your bedroom. Yes, loose in your bedroom. No crate required. This works particularly well if the bedroom is small, or at least has small floor space. This does mean you need to pick up all the things around the room that are chewable, put clothes away, tuck wires out of chewing range, etc. Bring plenty of dog toys in the room for the night. It helps if you give the dog a toy that he hasn't had before, since it's new and interesting and distracts from all the other new, interesting things to chew on in that room. Close the door, and try to get some sleep. If he starts to whine at the door, get up, take him out, and bring him back to bed. Don't make a big fuss about it. If you bring him back in and he still whines at the door, give him something that will interest him, like a kong with peanut butter on it (if you prepare it in advance you won't have to get out of bed to deal with it!). If he's in the same room as you, though, he should go to sleep, especially if he's had a nice busy day. He is probably standing at the baby gate like that because he's lonely. Sheepies love to be with their people more than anything. Eventually, you'll be able to graduate to letting him roam the whole house at night! You can move up to that when you're pretty confident that you're done with nighttime accidents and he's done chewing on things that don't belong to him, which was close to a year old for us. Eevee and Bailey both have free reign over the house at night, and it's very rare to find anything chewed up or poo on the floor when we wake up. About the dog bed - you're probably never going to get him to stop peeing on it now that he has started. Just throw it out. Only scold for accidents in the house right when it happens, of course. Otherwise he won't know why you're mad. Startle him when he's started peeing or pooing in the house and rush him straight outside. If he finishes up outside, give him plenty of praise. Cleaners - I clean puppy messes with a mix of water and vinegar. Enzymatic cleaners are best if they're going in the same spot all the time, especially on carpet. On tile, I don't really worry about it. Water - When we first started with nights in the bedroom, there was no water in there, but they had access to water all day before bed. I didn't take it up before bed or anything like that. Now that they are out of the bedroom and roaming the house, water is available to them all night (unless they drink it all  )I didn't crate Eevee ever in her entire life until 8 months old, and then it was only because we were going on a trip where she would need to sit nicely in a crate for part of the time without complaining loudly about it, it had nothing to do with housetraining. We managed to housetrain her just fine, she has the occasional pee accident, but it's usually my fault, not hers, because I'll think she's been out recently even though she hasn't. But yeah, if you can follow what I did, you'll make it through this whole housetraining thing just fine! OES don't mature as fast as other dogs do, so it seems like it takes a bit longer to get the whole housetraining thing done, and it is harder without a crate, but still doable. If I can do it, you can do it!  On another note, if it seems like this is just too much for you to handle and it's becoming a real problem and you just can't housetrain him, or you don't have enough time. there's some other options. There are trainers who offer to have your dog come to their house and then they will get him all good and housetrained within a month or so, since they have lots of time to devote to it. Then when he gets back, you make sure he doesn't go back to his old ways. The trainer will give you advice and whatnot of course. That costs a bit of money, and you might not have it in your area. It's also possible you could find a friend or family member you trust that is good with dogs who could try to housetrain him and then give him back. You do miss out on time with your puppy, so I wouldn't jump to this option unless you really can't housetrain him yourself. If that's not an option either, and you're really at your wits end, it may be in the best interests of you and your puppy to give him up to a rescue. I know that would be sad, but if you're a bundle of stress all the time because of the puppy, that's not good for either of you. Don't give up yet though, try out what I suggested! Follow it consistently for a couple weeks, see if you notice any changes. You'll probably see a lot of improvement! Routine is very helpful when you're housetraining. Good luck! |
| I agree with Nita. |
snazzierella wrote: Sheepies love to be with their people more than anything. Eventually, you'll be able to graduate to letting him roam the whole house at night! You can move up to that when you're pretty confident that you're done with nighttime accidents and he's done chewing on things that don't belong to him, which was close to a year old for us. Eevee and Bailey both have free reign over the house at night. We had to do this too! The first night we got Leonard we had great intentions of having him in his crate in another room as all of the doggy training wisdom had suggested but he was making so much noise for extended periods of time that we were pretty sure the neighbours three houses over could hear his high pitched howling. We put his crate in our room on my side of the bed with my ipad on top with a "heart beat sound" and it made a huge difference and there was no more noise, although I still had to get up with him a few times when he whined but he grew out of this when his bladder grew. It was a routine which worked for him; we say bed time, he gets one more trip outside, then straight to crate (eventually at about 6 months when he out grew his small crate and his large one took up most of the room we used a baby gate and put him in our large closet with door open and a baby gate gate across so he could see us but not run around the room) sleep, wake up (early) in morning go outside. We eventually graduated to no baby gate, sleeping wherever he wanted in the bedroom with the door closed and just this week (10 months old) we had left the door open to our bedroom and he didn't even notice. He sleeps in the room with us on the floor (he never sleeps on his bed at night, maybe it's too warm?). Given the option to be anywhere in the house he will sleep next to our bed, usually on the side next to the door. He doesn't chew or mess during the night and he knows he is not allowed on the bed. The dogs both love "bed time" you say it and they will go lay in the bedroom excited for sleep. Another bonus is it keeps the cat from coming in and waking us up (he used to LOVE coming into the room and waking us up by biting our noses or head butting us at 3am, 4am and 4:45am when he was bored and wanted attention, he doesn't seem as keen since we got the dogs). I know some people (like the dog whisperer) say never to have dogs in your bedroom but we found it was what worked for us with Leonard's anxiety being all by himself. You wouldn't even notice that they are there dogs in the room as they sleep through the night and usually are settled in their spots before I have even made it to the room. If I get up in the middle of the night the dogs don't. It does take some patience and practice to teach them the routine but it's nice when you go away somewhere (family's for the holidays, going to take care of elderly family members etc) and have to bring your dogs and the routine is there, no matter where we go they know what bed time means and seem to look forward to it. I know this doesn't agree with many dog training rules but it worked like magic for us! |
snazzierella wrote: Okay, since I housetrained without using a crate at all, I will tell you exactly what I did. First thing in the morning puppy goes out, and you go outside with the puppy. When he does his business, praise like it's the best thing that ever could have happened, ever. The praising really made a difference for us. Once I started going out with them and doing lots of praising, there were a lot less accidents. Once you've got all the important morning things you have to do in your life out of the way, feed puppy. At 7 months, 2 meals a day is good. Go straight outside with him after he eats. If he doesn't seem like he needs to go, head back in. Repeat every 10 minutes or so (and keep an eye on puppy) until he does go, and LOTS of praise then. Try to make a note of how long after he ate it was, that'll make things easier. If he seems to poo around the same amount of time after eating every day, you can just take him out around that time. Eevee has to go out within 15 minutes of eating or she is liable to poo on the floor, she can't help it. It's a lot of food for her belly to have in there! If he's having accidents during the day still, take him out every 3 hours, more if you need to, and remember to give lots of praise when he does his business outside! Four or five hours before you plan on going to bed for the night, give him his second feeding. Outside again like with the first feeding. Take him out again after the second feeding about 2 hours after, and another time right before bed. Eevee usually poos twice after she eats at night, once right after food and again a couple hours later. Now, instead of shutting him in the other room alone, put him in your bedroom. Yes, loose in your bedroom. No crate required. This works particularly well if the bedroom is small, or at least has small floor space. This does mean you need to pick up all the things around the room that are chewable, put clothes away, tuck wires out of chewing range, etc. Bring plenty of dog toys in the room for the night. It helps if you give the dog a toy that he hasn't had before, since it's new and interesting and distracts from all the other new, interesting things to chew on in that room. Close the door, and try to get some sleep. If he starts to whine at the door, get up, take him out, and bring him back to bed. Don't make a big fuss about it. If you bring him back in and he still whines at the door, give him something that will interest him, like a kong with peanut butter on it (if you prepare it in advance you won't have to get out of bed to deal with it!). If he's in the same room as you, though, he should go to sleep, especially if he's had a nice busy day. He is probably standing at the baby gate like that because he's lonely. Sheepies love to be with their people more than anything. Eventually, you'll be able to graduate to letting him roam the whole house at night! You can move up to that when you're pretty confident that you're done with nighttime accidents and he's done chewing on things that don't belong to him, which was close to a year old for us. Eevee and Bailey both have free reign over the house at night, and it's very rare to find anything chewed up or poo on the floor when we wake up. About the dog bed - you're probably never going to get him to stop peeing on it now that he has started. Just throw it out. Only scold for accidents in the house right when it happens, of course. Otherwise he won't know why you're mad. Startle him when he's started peeing or pooing in the house and rush him straight outside. If he finishes up outside, give him plenty of praise. Cleaners - I clean puppy messes with a mix of water and vinegar. Enzymatic cleaners are best if they're going in the same spot all the time, especially on carpet. On tile, I don't really worry about it. Water - When we first started with nights in the bedroom, there was no water in there, but they had access to water all day before bed. I didn't take it up before bed or anything like that. Now that they are out of the bedroom and roaming the house, water is available to them all night (unless they drink it all )I didn't crate Eevee ever in her entire life until 8 months old, and then it was only because we were going on a trip where she would need to sit nicely in a crate for part of the time without complaining loudly about it, it had nothing to do with housetraining. We managed to housetrain her just fine, she has the occasional pee accident, but it's usually my fault, not hers, because I'll think she's been out recently even though she hasn't. But yeah, if you can follow what I did, you'll make it through this whole housetraining thing just fine! OES don't mature as fast as other dogs do, so it seems like it takes a bit longer to get the whole housetraining thing done, and it is harder without a crate, but still doable. If I can do it, you can do it! On another note, if it seems like this is just too much for you to handle and it's becoming a real problem and you just can't housetrain him, or you don't have enough time. there's some other options. There are trainers who offer to have your dog come to their house and then they will get him all good and housetrained within a month or so, since they have lots of time to devote to it. Then when he gets back, you make sure he doesn't go back to his old ways. The trainer will give you advice and whatnot of course. That costs a bit of money, and you might not have it in your area. It's also possible you could find a friend or family member you trust that is good with dogs who could try to housetrain him and then give him back. You do miss out on time with your puppy, so I wouldn't jump to this option unless you really can't housetrain him yourself. If that's not an option either, and you're really at your wits end, it may be in the best interests of you and your puppy to give him up to a rescue. I know that would be sad, but if you're a bundle of stress all the time because of the puppy, that's not good for either of you. Don't give up yet though, try out what I suggested! Follow it consistently for a couple weeks, see if you notice any changes. You'll probably see a lot of improvement! Routine is very helpful when you're housetraining. Good luck! Thanks for this post at least it is helpful. 1) Pup always goes outside first thing in the morning which is about 6am and he always has someone with him and he is always praised. - I did start giving him a treat for doing it but then DH said he was barking to go out to the yard to do a wee to get a treat not because he wanted a wee? So I stopped and just gave praise. Lots of praise! The accident got so much less especially in daytime. He only had Accidents now when we are not in to let him out in the daytime. ( However recently he started havign a few accidents in the daytime again!) We do go out for 3/4 hours to shop etc or hospital appointments, but certainly not everyday there is usually someone here most of the time. 2) Puppy usually gets fed twice a day, he gets about 3/4 of the amount Murphy got pup is getting very big very quick. He is ravinously hungry all the time and is growing really fast. He is made now to sit while I put the food bowl down and then I go to him and we count to three and he gives me his paw and then I say take it. I do take the bowl off of him from time to time so I am still "owning it!" I just stir the feed or put an extra treat in ( We used to do this for food aggression with Murphyand we know it works well) .. Bailey used to just bulldoze and try to bowl me over so we are working on maners and patience. He always gets fed last after everyone else. Pecking order etc. We are very conscious of that having had a very Food aggressive dog in the past. The first meal is about 9am (Though I am trying to make this earlier from 7 am -9am Not easy having the lad here and also putting pup last on the pecking order list of eating!) the second about 5 -530 pm. If I make it later he wants to poo nearer 4 in the morning earlier nearer midnight. 3) After a meal I always take him outside and he usually pees on comand 90% of the time. However sometimes he doesn't want to pee and we come in and then go out again. SOmetimes I have to admit I stay at the door and go peeeee ! IT still works - but then sometimes he comes in and the minuite my back is turned he has peed up the door or on the floor! ugh? As for Poo he will poo about half hour after feeds and then again about 4/5 hours later? HIs last feed is 5.30 pm but still he wants to poo at 2am-4am??????? He poos about 4 times a day so quite a bit. But then he eats like a horse. I was worried he was not getting enough because I could feel his spine - but I think it is just because he was growing sooooooo fast. My sister said he was pooing a lot because he was getting too much food? But he is getting the right amount the pack says to feed him. He has druy chicken and rice feed + any treats and bones etc. Roght now he is going out to pee about every hour - hour half? He still manages the odd accident but it is way better than before. He is just a slow learner. He can go days without an accident and then have loads! 4) we go to bed around 10-11 pm so about 5-30 is exactly what you said about the second feed. He does poo after this feed but the second poo is in the night???? 5) Bailey is NEVER ALONE in another room for bed. He was sleeping with Giz but now they have a baby gate between them so they can see eachother but Giz can actually sleep without getting his ears sucked! As for toys Bailey has loads. Squeeky ones and soft ones. - He wont be comming in to our bedroom - that is something we never do with any dog is elivate them to human status. We know too many folk who have ended up with aggression issues that way. What about that poor woman who got her face tore off by her dog in France because it slept in her bedroom. No all the animals sleep downstairs. He is not alone he has Giz even though there is a gate between them and he also has Teddy the cat. - I am not sure what else I can say about that but honestly there is NO WAY (Dh) will have a dog in the bedroom. Even if I was living here alone I would not have a dog in the bedroom. 6) He always gets walked in the eveingings - you would think he would be tired but NO - he sits up all night like a little centry at the gate waiting? I have even slept on an old towel and let him have that to suck. He did for a while then he peed on it! UGh? 7) We have given Bailey lots of toys and new things. - He doesn;t seemt o respond to them very wella nd needs tought to play? He was brought up in a very very good home. HE was given lots of attention - this is more a case of he doesn;t want Giz to have the toys but he doesn;t want to play either?  There is always someone up in the night. DH doesn't seep much and usually puts the bear out at 2-4am - though I try to discourage this DH seems to "do it anyway?" Though the bear cries and poos if he isn;t let out so that doesn;t work either? No fuss is made and he generally goes back to sleep - but in th emorning sometimes there is still a poo on the floor or a puddle. 9) We have NEVER let our dogs have free range of the house. Having all rescues you just don;t know what they will be at. - We do however have loads of suppervised access to the house. At the moment we are working on sitting in the livingroom with us in the evening Bailey loves TV. ( trouble is it seems the more attention he gets the more he wants? So we end up with whinning and attention seeking when he doesn;t get it.) 10) Don;t worry I am not giving up on the bear, I love him to bits. but it is just his age and stage in life. I bet two years from now he will be wonderful - I never felt anything for him or bonded with him when he was little. ( funny because I always wanted a pup?) I was thinking I got him too soon after Murphy died so it was hard to "bond"! but we are getting there now. I think Grief had a deal to do with a lot of things. It was hard to let Bailey into a place Murphy should have been in. In the house and my heart. Everyday I feel closer to the bear though and when he gets things right I am over the moon. We are workin gon play times fetch and search. We are doing a lot of play in the yard and we are working on basic commands and a few more advanced ones. He now sits at the side of the road and waits to be told to cross! That is great! So we do a lot of training on the run type of thing. I do miss Murph though more than I can say. - I miss him every day and I can't get past that right now. Bailey is a great dog with a wonderful temperament - we don;t make an issue of accidents. Once DH tapped him on the nose for an accident - then he started eating the evidence yuck ! So that didn;t work. BAiley doesn;t chew - he did try the door frames but once they got painted with chilli he went off that idea! lol. He sucks things! Thats why I gave him an old towel. Murph used to have an old flanky he would carry with him. I was kind of hoping BAiley might do that but he just peed on it once he got bored with it.! We go for lovely walks round the parks and down the beach and loads of places but still - not enough!? I will try to time the poos more and see what I can do. The second feed I was thinking of moving it to 3pm? though maybe I should be giving it later?? like 7pm I am sooo confussed - Murph always got fed at 9 pm and then went to sleep for the night! But that was what Murph was used to. - As for giving pup up to a rescue I only ever gave two dogs up one was an alsation who was a love - but he walked "over cars" which was a bit embarrasing when you were walking him. He was a police dog but they didn;t want him because he was too soft! He near killed me with his shedding as I have Asthma and so he went back after two weeks to the police. The other dog savaged my son up his arm when the lad was only about 6yrs old. it was a spaniel - it went to the great Spaniel house in the sky! Totally psyco mutt. I had it from the pound for 10 days. Bailey clearly is not on that scale - he is staying - just he may have a cork perminantly inserted up his bum and a knott in his willy! Oes - I think I am doing most things you suggest already except the bedroom dog. - not happening! |
| I have a HUGE amount of respect for Nita and I agree with her completely. She is a top notch person, and she knows a tremendous amount, and has SO MUCH to offer. She wasn't trying to be hurtful, she was being honest. We have given you lots of help, but it seems you haven't tried anything long enough or consistently enough to help yourself. Just letting you know how it looks to us. You seem to have a running theme to your troubles. We'd love to help. Shellie |
| As for the 'bedroom dog' issue - I feel a need to hit this one. When we got our first Sheepie, Bentley, he was REALLY dog aggressive. We found out that he spend most of his life outside with little to no human contact so he OWNED his yard. When we came into his life, he got all the love and attention he could stand and then some. It was clear to us that he didn't really know how to react. However, we also found out that if he didn't want to do something, go inside, get off the couch whatever, he'd show us his big white teeth and make a whole lot of mean noises. From day one, he was allowed to sleep in our bedroom, but not on the bed. The reason for this was strictly his size. For and adult OES, he was HUGE - like 27"+ at the withers. On the rare occasions where he'd get up on the bed, I'd have to get him down. When I tried to touch him to shoo him, he'd get real aggressive. I combated this with using a lead as a lasso and toss it over his head and head calmly step off the bed and calmly lay on my side. He knew I was the alpha, he was merely testing me. And I was NOT going to lose. After seeing the lead come into the bedroom several times, he learned that he could get on the bed but when i said down, I meant it was wasn't gonna take any crap from him. I never lost my cool with him and was always respectful. He learned and it worked. Now for the same old song and dance - training a dog is no different that teaching a human; it takes time, effort and diligence. Without any one of these, you’re doomed to failure. For Bentley’s issues, we took our time and effort and afforded a lot of diligence and it paid off. Sadly, he left use far too soon for us to benefit from the fruits of our work but we know we made his life better than what he had. You MUST MUST MUST devote time and effort or you WILL fail. And the one who suffers is the dog, not you. Going from Bentley to a puppy was a challenge to say the least. But we approached it the same way and we house completely broke Caitlyn in about three weeks. Yeah, we kept with the crate training and going to shows, that has REALLY paid off. She does really good when I’m working a show alone. Vance |
| I've never heard of dogs getting aggressive just because theyre allowed in the bedroom. I have always let mine in the bedroom and it has not sparked any aggression issues. They still have the same amount of respect for me, they get off the bed when told and will leave the room if I tell them to. I'm sure there are a lot of people on the forum with non-aggressive bedroom dogs. Neither of my dogs is aggressive towards people, and Bailey has dog issues that stem from her rescue past. I think sleeping near you makes them happier, particularly for an OES. They don't call them Velcro dogs for nothing, they want to be with you all the time. You could try moving the feeding time to even earlier, it's always worth a shot. I really think he is just lonely and probably bored at night. Have you tried a Kong with peanut butter in it? Or a really long lasting bone to chew on? I hear antlers are good for chewing. I can't think of a whole lot else, if you can't bring him in your room then this is probably going to take you a good long while. Does he spend a lot of the day time sleeping? Maybe that could be why he sits up at night. |
| The following is from Wikipedia regarding Isabelle Dinoire who had the dog bite off her face, they say the incident wasn't a result of the dogs aggression so much as the dogs reaction to the owner fainting and then being unresponsive, it is a scary incident but I don't know if it was aggression. Dinoire's dog "chewed her face after she passed out from an overdose of sleeping pills."[2] Some reports following the initial surgery claim that her daughter said that the black Labrador cross (named Tania) was "frantically" trying to wake Dinoire after she took sleeping pills in a suicide attempt, and Dinoire wrote about her suicidal feelings in her own memoir.[3] The hospital denied this.[citation needed] In a statement made on 6 February 2006, Dinoire said that "after a very upsetting week, with many personal problems, I took some pills to forget ... I fainted and fell on the ground, hitting a piece of furniture."[4] Dinoire's daughter reported that the family is sure that the dog, which was ordered to be euthanized, mutilated Dinoire by accident.[5] They believe that the damage was caused when the dog, finding Dinoire wouldn't wake up, got more and more frantic, and began scratching and clawing her.[5][6] Dinoire was "heartbroken" when Tania was forced to be euthanized and kept a picture of the Labrador by her hospital bed;[7] she later bought another dog to aid in her recovery after surgery.[5] |
| Thanks for the "helpful posts here"! Those who have given me a lot of constructive advice. Last night was the first night Bailey has slept through! But it was not without issues: Here is how it panned out: Last feed 5-5.30pm So he should have plenty of time to evacuate whatever is in his belly. right? I do think Bailey was trying it on with DH though in the night as when he heard DH doing our disabled son that was his signal to "I want out!" - so it got a bit of a pattern I think. Like reasurance in the night that someone was there? Anyhow last night I told DH to ignor him and not let him out. This is what happened. - Went down at 6.30.am - totally dry dog and no poo ( or sign or smell of poo that may have been consumed by a guilty party? ) Think this is brillient! Give dog megga praise. Let him out to the yard and stand with him he has a massive peeeeeeee that lasts forever. more praise celebrate. He goes into the big yard. He hasn't figured out that I want him to do everything in the one big yard. We get to the big yard he is excited and wants me to follow - we get to the yard and he immediately poos when I say go poo then! I am extatic and give lots of praise. Giz has followed and taken the oportunity to do his own pee and poo while the woolly mammoth has been distracted. - we go back inside out of the bitter wind ( I am still in my PJs) I give both dogs megga praise and a treat each. - then I settle to make coffee and Tea for DH and I. - I head up the stairs and we watch the news and I get dressed and showered - less than45 mins later I bring the cups down and hear a bark - I think oh well I will let him out again? - But as I open the door of the Kitchen I already know - ????? (This is all before HE gets his morning feed!) There on the floor behind Bailey is another Poooo and he is looking really PLEASED WITH HIMSELF presenting me with this early morning love gift! I open the door and he goes out and immediately does yet another massive peeeeee - I pick up his missplaced poop on a scoop and trail after him to the big yard where I dump it with the earlier one in front of him. - We go in he does not get treats or praise. - I am defeated! - Half an hour after this I hear him cry again and let both Giz and Bailey out. he does another peeeee and I am thinking is his bladder really this big or is he doing it for more treats because it isn;t going ot happen - ! At least with this mornings love gift he managed to keep the pee outside - so I didn;t have to mop too much! Other mornings he manages to try to drown me as well! In fareness though most of the time it is just a poo these days! When we are out sometimes he poops but I don;t get annoyed because clearly he cant get out to the yard if we are not here. Recently he has had a few more peee accidents and tells me "after the event" not before. I don;t believe having him in my bedroom will be of any real advantage for him or us. I really don;t want to go down that road. It is simply NOT HAPPENING HERE! A lot of folk here keep their dogs outside - I don't! Bailey does get to go into other parts of the house under supervision. We are working on evenings where the boys can sit with us and watch TV etc. Yesterday pup didn't get his evening walk as when I went to get him he was out cold on the floor. He actually slept the night too which is good but I think it is another growth spirt he is getting very big very quick. Then he gets tired and just doesn;t want to do much - it passes though in a day or so. and then I notice he is "bigger" - Though then he doesn;t seem to want to sleep at all but sits at the baby gate like a centry on guard! It is now 8-50am and I hear another bark- I am thinking should I rush down and open the back door expecting yet another flood or is he just being annoying? I feel like a yo yo! It is wearing ! Gave in and went down let him out and he immediately did another massive wee. I have now fed and watered and am fully aware I just filled the TANK again! That was this morning! I am going to get Bailey checked out for a UTI somefolk suggest he may need to pee more if he has an infection. Tonight he was up and excited to go for a walk so we headed out and about and enjoyed a good long walk. He did not pull but we had an interesting time negotiating a bunch of rowdy teenagers! Which was good experience for Bailey! He did not however poo while away from the house but he did do yet another weeeee! I have felt very frustrated that I have not been getting it right for him. Some folk have been very critical of me for "posting my feelings and concerns" Actually accusing me of some kind of attention seeking or wanting simpathy? which doesn't help. If I didn't care for Bailey, getting it Wrong wouldn't upset me so much! - I simply would not have bothered to try to get support. Clearly there are some folk who say they want to be supportive and helpful but in practice are quite the opposite to the point of being very rood and nasty. Just because I have a lot going on in my home and a lot of folk here that need care does not mean there isn;t "room for a loved and wanted dog!" However getting it right for him is important to me! That is my reason for posting firt and formost - I am not an expert on the needs of a pup as I have never had one before and as any "new mum" is. I am more than concerned about making things ok for Bailey. That should be a good thing. Oes - I will remember the heal snapping brigade on this forum thread. I will also remember those who have treated me with respect and kindness and helped me out. |
| A walk on leash will probably not be enough to tire out an active dog. Monty has an hour off leash run a day. I walk for an hour and he runs loops. This is me walking about 5 - 6 km in one walk a day with the dogs running and sniffing. A happy dog is a tired dog, if he is tired he is less likely to cause problems possibly including going to the toilet in the house. Also Monty wants to sleep in the bedroom with us, he sleeps through out the night, no problems. Now if he is not allowed in the bedroom he gets up to mischief, like unrolling the toilet roll and taking things in reach to chew on. He is much more content to be with us in the bedroom he wants human company and not to be confined away. I think it is best to feed the same time each day, for us it is 7.00 am and 5.00 pm. Regulality makes the dog feel comfortable. We hope for you there is an improvement, we want the best for you and the dog. I am just afraid I might hear the same questions again two months down the road. |
| I think it is wise to check out any health issues. A UTI might be the problem. And if so, meds can clear it. Having had problems with UTI's myself as a human and my dog having them as well, I know how often you need to pee! I know a crate can't work for you but what about using baby gates ( not closed doors ) to keep him in a smaller area like in the kitchen? He is still a rather young pup. Walks can tire him out but there is nothing like a good play time. Maybe some fetch or throwing a ball around? Training will also tire out his mind. Just five or ten minutes of some training..practicing heel, sit, stay. Mental stimulation can tire them out too. Hope it works out for you. Did you say you have a blind son? Did you think about training this dog for being a service type dog to help your son? Yes, it takes some time which I don't know if you have to spend. but how awesome would that be to have your own dog as a service dog! Just a thought. |
Ashley wrote: I think it is wise to check out any health issues. A UTI might be the problem. And if so, meds can clear it. Having had problems with UTI's myself as a human and my dog having them as well, I know how often you need to pee! I know a crate can't work for you but what about using baby gates ( not closed doors ) to keep him in a smaller area like in the kitchen? He is still a rather young pup. Walks can tire him out but there is nothing like a good play time. Maybe some fetch or throwing a ball around? Training will also tire out his mind. Just five or ten minutes of some training..practicing heel, sit, stay. Mental stimulation can tire them out too. Hope it works out for you. Did you say you have a blind son? Did you think about training this dog for being a service type dog to help your son? Yes, it takes some time which I don't know if you have to spend. but how awesome would that be to have your own dog as a service dog! Just a thought. I already use a baby gate as you can see he is in a small confined space and only goes into the rest of the house with suppervision.  We also do lots of play and have two beaches within walking distence that he runs on. So he gets plenty of excersize! Though when it is very cold and wet that is an issue and so the tread mill has to come out! lol! For those who like dogs in bed these sites are worth looking at- Of course it is a matter of choice but informed choices are better made ones. http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/20/letti ... -kill-you/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41235440/ns/h ... ease-risk/ http://www.vetinfo.com/dogs-sleep-human-bed.html We have a lot of disabled here. My husband, both sons and also my sister stays here sometimes. Three of these are unsteady on their feet and one is sight impaired. Two are brain damaged and one has MS. I also have soft tissue Arthritis and asthma. Hence the reason we sometimes use the tread mill to excersize. We are training Bailey to help about the house. It will be a slow process though. He is learning to be patient right now. It is hard for him but nessisary for the safety of others here. He likes to use his body to bulldoze ( sheepie traint!) But we need to harness that instinct for more practical means like pulling someone up if they are stuck etc! He is getting good at handing me socks for the washer! lol - he has come a long way from eating the arm af DH good jumper the day he arrived! Yes we have a lot of fun teaching him things and when the weather is better fetch in the yard will be good to tire him as well. Sadly he has not been able to be out as much as we would have liked because of the bitter winds here recently - they have been so strong that several sheds have lost roofs so not safe to be out in that. When Bailey gets a growth spert he is just soooo exhausted. But then if he has had a UTI that is bound to tire him too? I was thinking he should be more bouncy than he is at this age. Bailey is very good with Danny our blind son who funtions mentally at about 18 months of age. He is a very gentle dog.  So as you can see we have a lot invested in this dog and that is why getting things right is sooo important. I am the first to put up my paws and say I am NOT confident in puppy care and training as I have never had a dog this young. Hence the reason for the posts - because I do care about bailey and getting it right - not because of some other motive. When I needed support and encouragement I did not get that form certain folk here - who presume to be well knowledgable in dog care. However perhaps their "people skills" need honed a bit! Maybe then things like Bailey maybe having something wrong like a UTI might have been picked up on rather than an opportunity to savage! - Got news vet thinks Bailey does have a UTI and is being treated for it. - The vet says he is doing fine and once this is sorted the wee issue should settle down. - SO thanks for all those who helped me out and to those who were not so helpful - Basics, basics, basics! Maybe there was something really wrong with the dog? Not the owner! Pitty none of them in their "experience" suggested a UTI? while sharpening their teeth? Good job the farm vet is out - as Easter is a bad time to be ill - ! Good to grab a vet on the run! Oes |
| Sorry but have to disagree with some of you. The long term benefits out way the sort term. You do what you have too and don't give up. Puppies are hard work and they will learn and some will take longer than others. |
| Forgot to add about the crying. Don't keep on running to him as the little thing will keep on doing it. Try newspaper by the door and then move it outside. If he is crying to go out for a wee is a good thing but I bet your bottom dollar he is not. |
| Glad to hear the UTI may be part of the problem. Well, not glad he has a UTI. But glad it can be treated and help out the excessive pee pee. Hope you continue to come visit the forum with questions. Everyone means well. |
Parwaz wrote: Forgot to add about the crying. Don't keep on running to him as the little thing will keep on doing it. Try newspaper by the door and then move it outside. If he is crying to go out for a wee is a good thing but I bet your bottom dollar he is not. Actually that is the problem he is going to have a wee everytime he cries! Not small ones either he empties the tank! lol But then he has had two nights perfect since DH has ignored the 2-4am crying! Oes |
Ashley wrote: Glad to hear the UTI may be part of the problem. Well, not glad he has a UTI. But glad it can be treated and help out the excessive pee pee. Hope you continue to come visit the forum with questions. Everyone means well. Yeah dead lucky the vet was out at the farm and I got him! lol can you imagine calling a Vet on easter day! the cost would be megga money. Last night he didn;t have any accidents and today we were out a good while as DD made us Easter dinner and we spent time with our grand baby Jess. I will upload - I am not going away. I did feel upset about some of the nasty comments written on this thread. Certain folk who jumped on that pack of wolves have done it to me before on other threads so it was not unexpected. When I toted up how many nice responses I got from really good folk I felt a deal better when I realised the bad posts were just so few and not worth getting my fur ruffled over. I have far too much on my plate here to let a few nasty folk drive me away from a really good forum. Wherever you go there will always be folk who are like that. But they are usually those who have never had any real experience of the kind of thing I do deal with everyday. Maybe if they had they would not feel the need to be nasty and judgmental. They just showed themselves for what they really are and have only done themselves a diservice. In the end others can see that I am a genuine person who loves her dog to bits and worries about him perhaps more than I should - but hay I have watched two disabled kids grow when I thought I was getting beautiful and intelligent twins. - you don't always get what you expect so it is only natural for me to be the way I am over pup - even if I am a bit paranoid about his health and how I am with him! Better that than not caring! Oes |
| No no=one is knocking you, every pupper is different in the aspect of toilet training. Take all into aspect, keep the youngster into a regular routine and eventually it will click. I use to get up at 5 in the morning take two puppers out to potty then go back to bed, hubby did the last thing at night potty with them both, one got it, the other I never thought would~~~ there all different in that aspect. Making even through the day and night, as soon as there awake from snoozing out straight away. I never crate trained with prior babies, last two from my litter I did, due to double trouble, but still did everything the same with toilet training. You do have your hands full with everyone, only 7 months old is the shaggy one and not unusual him getting it, keep a strict routine going with him as far as pottying and eventually it will CLICK if you are in a good routine!!! with him. There all different, I can tell you one of my girls years ago, 18 months till ALLS WELL was there. The girl from my last litter, well, we can walk for miles and miles, nothing, her brother opposite and the one that took longer to potty train, dump as soon as we got out the front door, the other WELL HELL NO, I dont potty in the street, on walks Hell No, only do that in private at home and she is still the same. Makes walking both them great, the dumpster still happening with a supply of poopy bags, his sis, heck no we wait till we are on home turf  Each dog or pupper is different from each other. My best was when we brought her home at 8 weeks, no accidents, a miracle my worst was a peeing girl who I thought would never get it. It did but just took diligence and routine and time and at the time I had a new born bubba and 2 year old toddler. We got there in the end. Nita was also correct in asking was it too much to take on an OES pupper in your home. I found they make grat family additions if you have the time to put in with them. I have had OES since 1976, my kids grew up with the furry kids too, but they do need that as well as the family to be involved in every aspect of your life. Otherwise you might as well of had another breed altogether.  |
lisaoes wrote: No no=one is knocking you, every pupper is different in the aspect of toilet training. Take all into aspect, keep the youngster into a regular routine and eventually it will click. I use to get up at 5 in the morning take two puppers out to potty then go back to bed, hubby did the last thing at night potty with them both, one got it, the other I never thought would~~~ there all different in that aspect. Making even through the day and night, as soon as there awake from snoozing out straight away. I never crate trained with prior babies, last two from my litter I did, due to double trouble, but still did everything the same with toilet training. You do have your hands full with everyone, only 7 months old is the shaggy one and not unusual him getting it, keep a strict routine going with him as far as pottying and eventually it will CLICK if you are in a good routine!!! with him. There all different, I can tell you one of my girls years ago, 18 months till ALLS WELL was there. The girl from my last litter, well, we can walk for miles and miles, nothing, her brother opposite and the one that took longer to potty train, dump as soon as we got out the front door, the other WELL HELL NO, I dont potty in the street, on walks Hell No, only do that in private at home and she is still the same. Makes walking both them great, the dumpster still happening with a supply of poopy bags, his sis, heck no we wait till we are on home turf Each dog or pupper is different from each other. My best was when we brought her home at 8 weeks, no accidents, a miracle my worst was a peeing girl who I thought would never get it. It did but just took diligence and routine and time and at the time I had a new born bubba and 2 year old toddler. We got there in the end. Nita was also correct in asking was it too much to take on an OES pupper in your home. I found they make grat family additions if you have the time to put in with them. I have had OES since 1976, my kids grew up with the furry kids too, but they do need that as well as the family to be involved in every aspect of your life. Otherwise you might as well of had another breed altogether. Thanks for that. - We do spend a great deal of time with pup Bailey everyday as there are always folk here. As for a routine we are trying to get a better one going. Because he was whinning to go out so often the routine we did have got thrown. But then the UTI probably did that. SO now we have to start over and maintain again. - We do put him out first thing every morning and he gets up at about 6.30 -7am now so that is brillient. He goes out and poos and pees no bother and the last two nights no accidents but this morning he had already peed and was sat in the puddle when I went down - that was immediately I woke at 6 am. He only cried "after the fact" again! but probably due to the infection ? ! UGH! Thing is then he goes out and does his business. But I have to watch him because he seems to do only half a poo! Saves the other half for when my back is turned! Once he is in again! UGH  But we are getting there as I have managed to stop him doing that the last few mornings . Great praise once he does it IN THE YARD! lol - but he did have that wee this am and I can't understand why he sits in it when everyone tells me he should avoid it????? I wanted an oes pup because we had always for 30yrs taken on other peoples dumped and damaged and abused OES. One of which had been battered so bad that she was left blind and braindamaged and so trumatised - she would pace up and down like a caged animal - so sad. (But we had experience of brain damage and repedative movement - so no differnt from the disability here lol!) This time I wanted a pup that we could train up and not have to undo all those other issues that we got with the rescues. I guess each has its own challenges. At least this pup doesn't have aggression issues or truma abuse issues. He just peeeeeeeeees a great deal! It is frustrating but no more a deal breaker than having to change dipers on a 25yrs old! Just tiring and fruustrating and of course the worry of "not getting it right" and not giving ehough and not doing the bast for Bailey! and of course doubting one self and ones ability to get it sorted. - This has been challenging in its way but in the longterm I have to ask - is it more challenging that dealing with Murphy's aggression?, or Pollyannas truma and resulting disability? or Molly's massive size OESx Wolfhound. And her lack of confidence due to being dumped on the street with an infected hind leg? Then being locked in a dark shed for days because the council kennel was too small! lol! Bailey brings a great deal to this house otherwise we would not have gotten him. Grooming and massarge is lovely to do in the evenings to calm and bond for all of us!- and walking great excersize for him and me - also "time out to get ones head showered"! No - having him is not too much being without an oes way more devistating! I do however think I got him too soon after Murph died and I think the grief I felt over Murph was magnified because I lost my mum just prior to lossing my dog.. It was hard to adjust to a tiny pup and comming to terms with the loss of Murph indeed. But I would never be without an OES for sure. I don't regret getting a pup this time round in every other way he is a "perfect dog" and the lead training and everything else is great. Wonderful temperament and such a gentle dog. - He is just a weeeeeeeeee bit smelly at times? But I am sure it will come - the UTI probably didn't help and am thinking he did have an injury in that department that got a bit infected a while back as Giz bit him on the willy? SO maybe hes had the UTI for a while creating a habit>? Oes. |
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