Spaying Miss Macey
Hope everyone is doing well! I was hoping to get some further advice on spaying. I read a thread about waiting until OES was full grown (12-18mths). But, was curious to know if what I was told was fact or myth- I was told that spaying early (6mths) would give longevity to life, and she wouldn't remember it since she was so young therefore bounce back faster etc. Is this a sales pitch?? Like I have said before I have only had small breeds, and they have all been spayed at 6mths, with no problems ever. So I am wondering if it is in fact different with large breeds. I am leaning towards it is a sales pitch or different with large breeds... and with that, I have another question. I have never experienced a dog in heat. Is there anyway of knowing when she will go into heat? How often does she go into heat? How long does it last? Is there anything I could do for her while she is in heat? What do I need to be prepared for it? I feel so clueless!! is like a human???? I know I sound nuts!! But I want to be prepared with knowledge before hand so when the time comes I dont freak out! LOL! Thank you in advance for all your help!  |
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| Just as an FYI, an OES is not mature by 12-18 mos old. That (new minimum recommended age) refers to the time period during which their growth plates will on average most likely close. One of the adverse effects of spaying (or neutering) early is that if you desex a dog well before their growth plates close, you screw up the body's ability to effectively signal the plates to close in a timely manner. The delay can mean the dog doesn't develop as it should and can predispose them to orthopedic problems. Most of the research suggests that spaying even later is better in terms of the protective value for things like autoimmune diseases and certain deadly cancers, exception being mammary cancer in bitches - spaying before the first heat virtually eliminates the risk of this cancer and is really the only non-reproductive related reason to spay early. Another big reason to spay early is that owner doesn't want to deal with a bitch being in season. You can't really tell when they will come in. Your best bet to get a feeling for when she might come in for the first time is to talk to her breeder and see when her relatives come in. Mine normally don't come into season for the first time until they are about 12-15 mos old, but that can vary a fair bit between lines. It can last anywhere from 2-4 weeks (on average) and it really isn't like humans. The first sign will be some swelling (most likely - but not generally so obvious in a young bitch) Then there's discharge. My girls clean themselves obsessively, so it really isn't a big messy deal, except you'll be cleaning their face more frequently. You can get panties they can wear with pads instead that are specifically made for dogs, or, thanks to the fact that our dogs are docked, simply get small sized human panties - get several cotton ones that you can throw into the wash easily. I use this some times for some dogs but if your dog is in coat it tends to lead to increased matting. Too, some bitches seem to think it's a special challenge to get their panties off, shred their pads, things like that. And you have to remember to remove the panties/pads BEFORE you take them outside to go to the bathroom - ask me how I know this.  You'd think it would be obvious but some times hard to remember if you're stumbling tired and it's o'dark thirty. The bitch will only actually be fertile a few days during that time, but without progesterone testing and/or an experienced stud dog around to tell you, you won't know when that is, so you have to assume you have to be vigilant the entire time. Some people find it really gross. To me it's no big deal, but that too varies. Kristine |
| Good reply Kristine! |
| Totally agree with the above ^^^ Many times, vets prefer to do pediatric spays and neuters. For most clinics, the price of the procedure will increase proportionally with the size of the dog. It's just easier for the vet staff to handle a puppy rather than a grown OES. A lot of shelters, rescues and even some municipalities want to be sure there is zero pet population increase. The earlier they can ensure that any fertile dog is de-sexed the better. Responsible pet owners should have the right to do what is best for their dog, not the convenience of their vet. By all means, wait if you can. |
What Kristine said.  To do the correct waiting time in most OES females means having your dog go through one heat cycle to get to the youngest side of the desired age if you are planning to spay. My daughter has Chewie's 6 yr old sister Martha - it's been a non-issue over the years, she loves her girl-panties (She's the Princess type  ) LeAnne's planning on getting her spayed this year, as when they get older, pyometra and other health concerns creep up and being not-spayed loses it's advantages.The same thing goes for males and neutering - obviously no heat issue, but waiting for growth maturity in males yields the same benefits. Of course males have to deal with the stereotype /old wives tale that neutering early stops humping and marking...not true - its a TRAINING issue |
 Ditto Kristine  Harry is an excellent example of a boy who was neutered too early. His legs are too long (though lovely) and his rear joints: hips, "knees", etc aren't properly formed. (growth plates Kristine refers to) Thus he torn ligaments when young that have never been repaired. The cost for a full reconstruction of hips, femur, etc was $$$$$. There's also the concern early spaying may lead to bone cancer later on. Just wait. The "heat" isn't a big deal and surely doesn't compare to a $30,000 hip reconstruction later. The incision for a spay isn't that big anymore and the girls bounce back rather quickly...sometimes too quickly for their own good. |
| We spayed Mady at 5 months due to the vet's pressure and our own insecurity, and I feel utterly terribly awful about it. The vets use scare tactics in my opinion, and we as first time dog owners with Mady who have never experienced a heat, were pressured into it. Her skull plates didn't quite seal up properly, and she is taller than she would have probably been, you can see and feel the difference between Mady and her little sister Gracie and mother Virginia. Of course she is still a very healthy girl, and I hope it never causes her any issues or I will just be devastated because it was our fault. We should have listened to our breeder, she said it would be best if we waited until after her first heat, but if not at least a year. We have gone through a heat cycle with Mady's younger sister Gracie, I can tell you it is really not a big deal. I am sorry but there is a panic over spaying/neutering your dogs and it is just that, an over-hyped panic. It is very easy for a responsible dog owner to avoid unwanted pregnancies without having to resort to neutering/spaying. I don't think I will spay or neuter any other sheepdogs I get, unless it's healthier for the females when they get a bit older to avoid things like Pyometra etc. |
| Thank you Kristine! Very informative! And Thank you everyone else!!!!! Macey will be 6mths in March... and I MOST DEFINITELY am going to wait! I suffer from aches and pains in my neck and back, and it's permanent. So, the last thing I would ever want to do, is put Macey in a situation where she may suffer at all from joint pain...or have to endure treatments/surgery to fix it (of which, I know for me at least...never really truly fixes it  ) And I want her to grow to what she is naturally suppose to be. So HAPPY I came here and asked you guys and didn't just listen to friends opinions or vets..So if for a few weeks she has to look super cute in some underroos so be it. I am now wondering if I should start getting her used to it now  So maybe when the time does come down the line it isn't all like "MOM what are YOU DOING TO ME!?"Baba...from another thread I read about spaying early, have you been giving Mady vitamins and do you live in a cold climate? Joint and bone vitamins can't hurt. I am sure she will be okay! Just love her and keep those bones comfortable! Thank You Again!! I will not fall prey to the sales pitch now!! |
| thank you for waiting to spay Miss Macey. Here is more info: Quote: Recent studies have shown that neutering can have an adverse effect on the health of a dog. To further delve into this new information, a team of researchers at UC Davis recently examined the veterinary records of 759 Golden Retrievers for hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were grouped as intact, neutered before 12 months of age or neutered after 12 months of age. http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/new-study-neuter-risk-hip-dysplasia-dogs/The study, which is to be published today, revealed that the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered both before and after 12 months of age. Early neutering was associated with an increased incidence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Neutering after 12 months of age was associated with an increased risk of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females. The most notable results from this study include a doubled risk of hip dysplasia among males neutered before 12 months of age and the increased risk of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in dogs neutered after 12 months. Previous studies reported only a 17% increase in risk of hip dysplasia in neutered dogs and this is the first study to report an increased risk of cancer in dogs neutered late. Of the five diseases measured, the study reported that: •There were no cases of cranial cruciate ligament rupture diagnosed in intact males or females, but in early-neutered males and females the occurrences were 5% and 8%, respectively •Almost 10% of early-neutered males were diagnosed with lymphosarcoma, 3 times more than intact males •The percentage of hemangiosarcoma cases in late-neutered females (about 8%) was 4 times more than intact and early-neutered females •There were no cases of mast cell timor in intact females, but the occurrence was nearly 6% in late-neutered females •Of early-neutered males, 10% were diagnosed with hip dysplasia, double the occurrence in intact males |
| Our Veterinarian splits his time between directing a Veterinary residency in an academic animal hospital and maintaining a private general veterinary medicine practice. Here are his comments on the study quoted above, in the context of Old English Sheepdogs: (I value his opinion a great deal) While interesting, the study is in one breed, with its own specific issues and cancers risks. It will be interesting to see whether this generalizes to all breeds. Certainly thought provoking. Here are the known facts regarding timing of spay and mammary tumors- Basically, the risk of mammary cancer increases with each heat cycle up to ~ age 2 or the second heat. If spayed prior to their 1st heat, the risk of mammary cancer is 0.5%. After one heat, the risk increases to ~10%, after 2 it increases to 26% and the protective benefit of spaying is lost. Because mammary cancer in dogs has a 50% malignancy rate with ~50% of these developing metastasis makes sense at this time to spay prior to the first heat. |
| There have been many studies, on mixed breeds, various purebreds etc all showing it is better to wait. I find it amazing so many vets are still so ignorant of this to be honest. I'm very grateful that my own vets are more educated and continue to update their education. |
| Just getting pets neutered is still the big push to reduce stray population. I understand that. Once a vet says it is better to wait, irresponsible pet owners will ignorantly allow their pet to breed before thinking, "Oh yeah, I was suppose to do something to prevent this before having the pet neutered." Coming up with birth control added to food..........??......except it would interfere with maturation, defeats the purpose. Someone much smarter than me will have to come up with a way to allow the animals to mature and not reproduce. |
| I spayed my female at about 6 months and have had no problems. She is now five. My breeder did suggest to wait but my Vet encouraged me to do it earlier. This seems to be a very controversial subject and I think each person should make their own decisions. One size fits all doesn't always apply. |
| Since my health guarantee is for the life of the dog it's actually in my contract that people NOT spay or neuter early. Just too important to their health and development. They are required to spay or neuter eventually, just not too young. As far as preventing reproduction, if excellent homes are chosen carefully and families kept in touch with, there is no reason for accidents to happen with responsible people. |
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