Weimaraner from CustomSadles in Oklahoma from Puppyfind.com
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| I could be wrong but I really don't think that puppyfind.com is really a "puppy mill". They pretty much accept listings from anyone who registers with them. Some of those listers are probably brokers and mills but I'm sure that there are also lots of decent breeders amongst them. When I was looking for a breeder I did check out that site and just used it to find names/contacts which could lead me to a breeder that was reputable and had all the things I was looking for (health guarantees, etc.) I certainly am sorry for your experience but I don't know how the site should be held responsible for any wrongdoing- they're just a place to post about available dogs for sale. |
| I disagree.I think that site is probably 99% mills and brokers, no reputable breeder would sell a puppy over the internet in such a manner. Supporting that site is in my opinion helping mills continue. |
| First, I want to say I am so sorry for your loss, and that you are going through this. Oklahoma is getting to have a bad or worse reputation than MO, for their puppy mills. The only experience I have had is turning and running from the puppy mill in Thomas, Oklahoma that I came in contact with. I was fortunate enough to get to go and meet her, the dogs and puppies, she is now selling on puppyfind. She does not allow people out to her home anymore. The OES puppies did not respond to sound and did not move even one step the time we were there. They were 7 weeks old and should have been very responsive. I hate to admit that Oklahoma authorities were of no help. I don't think anyone has yet to go and check the conditions of these dogs.
The only reason we stayed as long as we did, was the home was out in what we Okie's call the "boonies", and my son was young and needed to go to the bathroom. On the bathroom wall calendar was different breeds of dogs due just about every day of the month of June. I am saying there were 25+ litters due in just one month. I wasn't quite so nosy as to lift up and see what was under, as that was enough. I got my husband and daughter and we headed out. I wish there was something you could do, but it seems that these millers are pretty much allowed to do what they want. I also would like to see the word spread on puppyfind.com, but even if they don't get their advertising there, it is only a small amount for a website compared to the money these millers are bringing in. The best thing for any of us to do is educate people on reputable breeders, and hope that they take our advice. Again, I am sorry for your loss. I hope that you find peace. Stormi and co. |
Real sorry for your loss, my heart goes out to you  . I wish I had a healthy pup to give you right now. Why not try taking them to small claims court. It would not cost you anything and you might be able to get some money back. Just have all your receipts and paperwork in order to show the judge and see what happens.
Try and speak to a reporter of a newspaper to see if they will write up an article on them and then maybe the TV news channels will pick it up. Good luck and hope that things turn out great for you and I'm sure there is a great little pup around the corner waiting to come home with you. Uncle Pete  |
| You may want to have a look at this site. (BEWARE!!! The pics on some of the pages are VERY graffic!)
http://www.njcapsa.org/ This organization does however, do a lot of work to help people put their stories out there, helps to get money refunded and has tons of info on the good and bad things that happen to puppies from mills. I am very sorry that you had to go through this. |
| Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry for your loss. |
| I could not help but to read about the poor quality puppy purchased from a breeder in Oklahoma. First of all I am sorry for your loss.
Being a breeder myself, this entire report sounds a little fishy to me. How could anyone not know where the puppy came from? You said you went back to the breeder and he said he did not know them. Ok there are severall ways to prove who you bought the dog from, lets start with your cancelled check, or how about a credit card receipt. I have never heard of a breeder deny the transaction, actually if you called on him in person, I don't see how you would stnad there and let the guy get away with it.. The story does not ring true, are you sure you are not just bashing this guy for some reason? The other comments about the police failing to respond, well again if you filed a complaint I can assure you the police will respond, again.. It does not sound right. Someone took a cheap shot at Missouri breeders, Missouri leads the nation in high quality kennels, Missouri has the best licensening program , the only continueing education program for breeders and one of the only states where the kennels are inspected often by the state inspectors. Actually Missouri has more laws on the books than any other state for the protection of animals used in commercial breeding. Oklahoma, does not have any mind you any of these programs.. It is easy to think a PM could be there as I have ssem them myself, but in MIssouri.. I don't think so not today any how.. years ago, yes but not now. l |
| Someone took a cheap shot at Missouri breeders, Missouri leads the nation in high quality kennels, Missouri has the best licensening program , the only continueing education program for breeders and one of the only states where the kennels are inspected often by the state inspectors. Actually Missouri has more laws on the books than any other state for the protection of animals used in commercial breeding. Oklahoma, does not have any mind you any of these programs.. It is easy to think a PM could be there as I have ssem them myself, but in MIssouri.. I don't think so not today any how.. years ago, yes but not now. I do rescue.....I know what goes on in Missouri and what the laws are in Missouri......The State of Missouri protects commercial breeders and puppymills....Thanks to the Hunte Corp...The only kennels I know of that are inspected are commercial breeders.... So are you a COMMERCIAL BREEDER? Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| Jover, in many cases puppies bought through puppyfind are bought over the internet, shipped, and paid for without the buyer ever seeing the home. In many cases, papers ARE forged, as are addresses, names etc. This story is one that is heard time and time again.
Yes OK is bad for mills and commercial breeders, however it is just beginning to build it's bad reputation in this area. Missouri has been going at it a long time, and nothing has changed from what I have heard or read in news reports, personal accounts of people who have bought animals from that state, as well as numerous animal welfare agencies who continually try to shut these places down. You mentioned you are a breeder Jover, and as such, one would think you would know more about the forgeries of so called registration papers, horror stories from puppy mills, commercial breeders, internet scams and the like. |
| I am so sorry for what you went thru with your sick puppy.... Websites like Puppyfind, Puppydogweb are just websites where breeders of all KINDS advertise their litters for sell.....The breeders just pays them....No Questions Asked...... You can file a civil suit....I know of several people that have filed and won....... Did the puppy come with any health guarantee? Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| This is our newspaper ads for animals in the Oklahoma City metro area. http://newsok.com/classifieds/categories/?category=1 If you click on dogs or cats, there are many, many litters. Lets just stick with the 431 ads in the dogs section. How many of those litters have had any preliminary testing specific to those breeds? How many of those dogs aren't overbred? I have called 3 ads referring to Old English Sheepdogs in the last year, none of them knew anything about testing, no idea who the parents were of their dogs. One in specific let me know that a lot of her dogs that were breeding, were ones that people didn't want and she "rescued" them to breed them.
The other breeder, I have already referred to, in my post above was the 4th OES breeder in the state of Oklahoma. I don't know about every state, but I can say that I do believe Oklahoma is becoming over run by puppy mills and back yard breeders. I did a lot of research on dog breeding, OES in specific, and because of that few years of research, I ended up not breeding my dogs. I really can't imagine that there would be many dogs in those 431 ads that actually were of breeding quality. I am sure there are some, but not many. You also say you are a breeder, what breed of dogs do you breed? Are you involved with any of the rescue organizations for the breed? I had no idea there were as many OES needing homes when I first began thinking of breeding. It amazes me how many are out there. Do you have a contract that will allow you the dog back for any reason the new owners can't keep him/her? Do you register your litters with limited registration to prevent them from breeding, and a contract not allowing papers to be given until proof of spay and neuter are provided? These are things I would hope every dog breeder would think of. |
| owners can't keep him/her? Do you register your litters with limited registration to prevent them from breeding, and a contract not allowing papers to be given until proof of spay and neuter are provided? These are things I would hope every dog breeder would think of. _________________ Stormie, I can not tell you how many breeders I have spoken to about why they don't give limited registration on their puppies.....Some didn't even know what limited registration was?????? I have tried to talk to them about not providing the AKC papers until proof of altering........Their comment was........It would hurt the sell of the puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have tried to shame them into doing more.......I don't think I have changed one breeder......They tell me what I want to hear..... I'm tired of trying... Kaye |
| Here in Canada it is illegal to sell a puppy as purebred without papers, or without providing those papers.
Here though, a puppy purchased as a pet has NON BREEDING stamped right across the registration papers, and no one could breed that dog and expect to be allowed to register the pups. If someone even tried the breeder would be notified (hopefully) and could then sue and possibly take the dog back if they have stipulated that in their contract. |
| AS long as AKC doesn't require any testing of any kind { other then DNA on the sire } THEY will pump them out..... .....Show Breeders Statement is " No Dog that has not been shown should be bred" IF that was the case there wouldn't be puppymills amd copmmercial breeders and all the others...But, when SOMEONE sold that first dogs with full breeding rights the damage was done....... So here in the REAL WORLD..... If Breeders of anykind would just check that LIMITED REGISTRATION box on the registration papers ...that would cut back on breeding......... A simple little X.......... Then at 2 years after all the tests have been done and the breeder is confident they can change that to Full Registration..... Only the orginal breeder cna change that status................. That would sure be better then nothing..................................... As long as The Fox Is Guarding The Henhouse this problem is only going to get worse....... This Is All About Money Here Folks..... Doing Rescue ... I think there needs to be a Mandatory Spay and Neuter Program Nationwide...Ya Sure In The Real World ...... Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| My family has been in the dog business for over 25 years and we sell on puppyfind. We have sold lots of puppies on there overtime and have never gotten a bad report back. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the site but don't go judging everyone who sells puppies on there because of your experience. My family's kennel is inspected by the USDA and the AKC. |
| I was a breeder for years and was never inspected by the USDA.....I thought they only inspected commercial breeders.....Kaye Second Chance OES Rescue |
| Our kennel is inspected twice a year by USDA and twice a year by AKC |
| Wow,,, that's a lot! Can I ask you how many dogs do you have at your kennels, and how many puppies do you whelp in a year? |
| Come to think about it I was never inspected by AKC either?????? AKC and USDA Inspections both twice a year..... Did they come together??? I'm being serious here........I didn't know that AKC inspected kennels......Kaye |
| Wildflower, That email of mine really came off tacky....I am just curious about things. I have an inquiring mind ......That is how I think people learn is to listen to other peoples opinions...... See, I was just a lowly backyard breeder and was used to getting kicked around .......After all, THEY say, puppymills, commercial breeders, backyard breeders are all the same.... I finally just gave up fighting and went into rescue....A lot easier. Not near the work. Geez, 25 years in the dog business.....That is a long time. Does the whole Family help with it.? One person sure couldn't do it with out help. What do you breed? Just curious......Kaye |
| We have about 80 adult dogs in our kennel and we whelp approximately 100-150 puppies a year.
USDA and AKC come separately to inspect they come approxiamtely every 6 months... My mom and I take care of the dogs If anyone has any more questions I'd be happy to answer them |
| Mercy..... I don't see how 2 people could possibally take care of so may dogs.....It took everything I had just to take care of one litter of puppies. Then I always worried if I would be able to get rid of all the puppies. I have heard that the USDA really makes you keep accurate records..You have to account for every puppy. What does AKC do when they come to inspect.? I really did not know that they came and inspected kennels. . I heard if a kennel was in trouble or some one had turned them in they would come out to inspect. How in the world do you sell that many puppies a year.....Do you sell all of them on Puppyifnd? I just can't imagine selling that many puppies. I guess I wasn't doing something right.......Kaye |
| Wildflower,
Do you breed more than one type of dog? As a high volume breeder do you also do rescue? Do you take back dogs that the owners are unable to care for and either rehome or keep them? I'm just curious because of the large numbers of litters you care for, it must be overwhelming at times. |
| I'll try and answer all the questions:
We raise 6 different breeds of dogs AKC basically makes sure your records are very accurate such as they may say you sold a basset puppy on march 12, 2004 who did the puppy go to and you have to have in your records who the new owner is. We put our puppies on puppyfind at around 5 or 6 weeks of age if they are not sold by 8 weeks we take them to the brokers. If somone is unable to take care of their dog we rehome it. |
| Thank you for answering. I would think the medical bills for so many dogs would be huge. I have 4: one healthy, 2 with hypothyroidism, one with synovi sarcoma. Just on 3 I've have spent well over $16,000 in the last 2 years, I can't imagine what keeping 80 dogs plus puppies would cost. |
| It is an expensive thing to do but we do pretty good financially with our dogs so we are able to pay th evet bills plus I'm from a really small town so our vet costs may be cheaper here too. I had someone tell me they spent like $100 to have a hernia repaired...its way way lower here. |
| I didn't make any money and many times went in the hole with a litter....So like I said I guess I didn't know what I was doing. I was just curious about what AKC did when they inspected your kennel. Maybe I didn't have enough dogs to warrant an inspection? I am curious about something else. I really appreciate your openeness about all these questions. Would a Broker contact you before you have a litter or before you list it on Puppyfind and tell you they are wanting a specific marked or colored dog? I know certain people that want to buy a puppy are wanting specific marking and etc? Do the brokers take all of those puppies that don't sell on Puppyfind? What happens to a puppy if a broker doesn't want it for what ever reason { color, markings, size}? Kaye |
| Couple of questions from me, too, if you don't mind. I know of some large-scale breeders that hire people to come socialize the pups when they are young. Do you arrange to have your puppies socialized before they go to their new homes? Do you spay and neuter them before they are placed, so that the over-population problem does not continue on with the dogs you place or does your vet not do pedicatric spays/neuters? Some don't, I know. Are your breeding dogs tested for the breed-specific hereditary problems..like hip displasia, that is in so many breeds, so you can be sure that your dogs are not passing the problem on? And as for the breeding dogs, are they kept in pens and how do you make sure that they are happy and are enjoying life? And what do you do with them once they are no longer able to produce (at what age do you stop breeding them?)? Again, I am just wondering what happens to all those dogs. Thanks for sharing. |
| Our vet does do pediatric neuter/spay but many of the people we sell puppies to want them either as a stud/breeder in their own kennels.
We "retire" our dogs at 5 years of age All our puppies that do not sell on puppyfind (which is very few if any) go to the broker. I have lots of young cousins who love being able just to play with puppies so they are well socialized. All our dogs have a health guarantee for one year |
| Wildflower, I think you said it all when you "We have been in the dog business for 25 years".....I really tried to try an understand more about what you do as a commercial breeder.. I do rescue so I don't agree with Most Breeders anyway....But, one that breeds 6 different breeds and sells to anyone that has the money and call the Puppybrokers.........I thought I was being real smart and fed into what I thought you would want to hear......It was kind of like a game to find out as much as I could about AKC and USDA and commercial breeders in general....... I wasn't being smart at all.....Maybe Smartelic!!!!!!!There is nothing I could say to you or do to you to make you stop doing what you're doing..... I should have just said right out of the gate how Much I HATE WHAT YOU DO........There is no way it can be justified other DOG BUSINESS..... |
| Do you spay and neuter them before they are placed, so that the over-population problem does not continue on with the dogs you place ......
The answer is no, so you are part of the problem..... Are your breeding dogs tested for the breed-specific hereditary problems..like hip displasia, that is in so many breeds, so you can be sure that your dogs are not passing the problem on? No answer, so assume no? Who cares once the dog is sold, right? And as for the breeding dogs, are they kept in pens and how do you make sure that they are happy and are enjoying life? No answer, so not much of a life for the dog, I guess. And what do you do with them once they are no longer able to produce (at what age do you stop breeding them?)? Retired at 5 years, but to what? A dog penned up for years is hard to house-train and make into a household pet. Just where do they go? I think I know, and do not care for the answer. Only the lucky ones make it to rescue...where I, too, spend most of my spare time. Gee, thanks, Wildflower. |
| I don't think that publicly chastising anyone is the way to go folks...
You may be dealing with someone who is the cream of the crop in commercial breeding, and I think it's a little bit unfair to be so harsh... Our goal should be to understand the needs and drives of commercial breeders (and all other breeders as well) and see if we can find some common ground that improves the breed, improves placements, allows the breeders to make good money, and reduces the need for rehoming and rescue. Just yelling at each other across the fence won't accomplish any of this, it will just cause ill will and mistrust. I know that everyone has strong feelings about these issues, but PLEASE keep our mantra in mind: Please write your posts as if you are sitting at your kitchen table, sharing a cup of tea with a neighbor who you don't know very well. I want to learn about commercial breeders, and I'm very happy that wildflower is here amongst us. |
| Our goal should be to understand the needs and drives of commercial breeders
Sorry to disappoint you, Ron, but it is only money. Nothing else. The small breeders who test thier stock, and care about where their pups go, and take responsiblity for them for life....they are not in it for the money, but to better the breed. It costs money to be a good breeder, so most ot them do it as a hobby. Commercial breeders do it for the money. Why? Because they can. Just like a cattle rancher with a herd of cattle, or a poultry dealer who farms chickens. Whoever has the almighty dollar in thier hand gets the goods. And nobody cares what they do with it once the property is sold. But you are right, and this is a place where OES lovers and owners come together to enjoy each others stories, and to learn about the OES breed, and we have you to thank for that. It is also a good place to educate people about the dark side of the canine production line, to perhaps save some of the breed from a lot of grief. I certainly hope that some people will learn the truth about that "puppy in the window". For the good of each and every dog, who have only us to depend on for thier future. OK, I am off my soapbox, now. And I apologise of high-jacking this thread. My passion for the welfare of dogs took over. |
| It is very hard when a person is Passionate about something to not be emotional at times. Because I am so Passionate about Rescue and the The Breed I do tend to get a Little Heated at times.....That is not an excuse.......I do not have the right to be rude in stating my opinion just because I disagree with their opinion..... .Kaye |
| I think so far this thread has been handled well, each person has stated their opinion politely for the most part, though some things could have been worded differently.
We are all dog lovers here, or we wouldn't be here. We all have feelings that run high in regards to these issues. I think that by welcoming wildflower and learning more we can better understand not only what she does, but the effort and expense our own reputable breeders and rescues go to while aiming to not only meet standards, ensure health and great temperment, to keep our beloved breed alive, but also the rescues who put out cosiderable effort and expense in helping the ones who may not have had the best start in life and unfortunately need a new home. |
| Ok for the person who says they think they know what happens to the retired dogs I don't think you have a clue. I have 2 old huskies who are around 9 years old and they have the run of the yard.
Perhaps if you would read the whole thread you would see that I said our dogs have a health guarantee of 1 year..so far I have never had anyone say one of my dogs had any health problems I have received the breeder of the year award and if you would research that you would see that is no easy feat. I'm sorry some of you had negative things happen with a breeder or puppyfind but not all breeders are like that. And money has nothing to do with it the first 5 years I almost went broke if it was for money I would have gave up long ago. Anyway try reading the whole thread and you would see I addressed the questions put forth. Shug don't go whining because you had a bad experinece that would be like me calling evryone who talks in forums a jerk just because i found 1 who was. |
| Wildflower, Sorry about the whineing!!! I'm Old, Female and Menapausal........Thats My Story and I'm Stickin To It....... Who honored you with the Breeder Of The Year? Kaye |
| Ok for the person who says they think they know what happens to the retired dogs I don't think you have a clue. I have 2 old huskies who are around 9 years old and they have the run of the yard.
That would be me 
When I said I think I know, it is because I have heard about retired breeding dogs getting shot, drowned, or sent off to brokers who then auction them off to puppy-mill folks, for a couple of more years of breeding. That's because it costs too much to have them euthanised, and some vets won't do it, anyway, if the dogs are young enough and relatively healthy. I actually am aware of one place that killed the old dogs, and fed them to the others. But that was a puppy mill, busted now, for obvious reasons. Is there any truth to the others things, as far as you know? |
| I would NEVER put a dog down just because it is old and i could never shoot a dog. If a dog needs to be put down it will be in a humane way in a vets office. I love my dogs very much and regardless of what some of you think my dogs are very well cared for.
Sadly some people do shoot the dogs themselves or drown them. 
Matter of fact the USDA inspector was at my house just today and I got an excellent reprt. |
| Wildflower, Back about 6 months ago an all breed rescue contacted us and had rescued 27 dogs from the Wheaton Dog Auction in Missouri. 4 of the 27 were Old English. They wanted to know if we would take them. They all came in with a rope around their necks with a auction # hanging from the rope. Well I should say 3 of them did. All of the breeders info was on the USDA paperwork that came in with them. Breeders address USDA # etc..... 3 of the girls were really in pretty good shape........I guess they didn't sell for much {$25} because of their age and wouldn't or couldn't breed any more. Mo Molly was just thrown in. There was no paperwork on her at all. Just lost her Monday... What I don't understand in this...IS .Why not contact a breed rescue with these older ones that will not breed anymore? Rescue poeple will gladly meet you and take the Babies and find them good homes to live out the rest of their lives.... Why take them to auction? Kaye |
 I AM A BREEDER THAT USES PUPPYFIND., I FEEL THIS IS UNFAIR TO PUPPYFIND AND SOME GOOD REPUTABLE BREEDERS ARE GETTING A BUM RAP FROM ALL OF THIS. AS I HAVE POSTED ON MY AD, IT IS UP TO THE COMSUMER TO CHECK OUT THE REPUTATION OF THE BREEDER. ALWAYS ASK THE BREEDER FOR REFERENCES FROM SOME PREVIOUS PUPPY BUYERS. IF THE BREEDER DOES NOT WANT TO GIVE YOU REFERENCES THEN THAT SHOULD BE YOUR FIRST CLUE TO NOT DEAL WITH THAT BREEDER. THERE ARE SOME VERY REPUTABLE BREEDERS ON PUPPYFIND WITH NICE QUALITY PUPS THAT DO NOT DESERVE THIS BUM RAP. THANK YOU....CAROL KIENLEN  |
| It's called "guilt by association". When you choose to advertise in and financially support an institution that does nothing to weed out the bad apples, that's what happens.
"Reputable breeder" probably means something different to you than it does around here, too. Around here, "reputable breeder" means AKC registered, not selling solely over the internet (meeting the buyers in person, getting references on them and perhaps inspecting their home, and not selling to just anyone who sends in a deposit). A "reputable breeder" performs complete health testing on potential sires and dams, weeds out of the breeding program any sire or dam that has any identifiable faults or hereditary issues, and follows their puppies through adulthood to watch for the development of inheritable problems. I don't know how many pups a year you sell, but I doubt that a facility like wildflower's (she says she produces 100-150 puppies a year) could possibly do most of that, and I've probably left out a bunch. Perhaps you meant "reputable business person"? |
NO, I MEANT REPUTABLE BREEDER, WHICH IS ALL OF THE ABOVE OF WHAT YOU SAID. I SCREEN MY NEW HOMES, THEY COME TO MY HOME, I SUPPLY LUNCH WHEN THE PUPS ARE 6 WEEKS OLD SO THEY CAN SEE THEIR NEW BABIES, I GIVE A CLASS ON THE CARE OF THE PUP. THE PUPS ARE AKC REGISTERED, AND WE BREED ONE BREED ONLY. WE LOVE THE BREED, ATTEND ANY INFORMATIONAL FUNCTION WE CAN ON THE BREED. AND ARE FAR FROM BEING A PUPPYMILL. I AGREE, YES, THERE ARE MANY MILLS AND SO FORTH ON PUPPYFIND, I SAW THEM MYSELF WHEN I WAS LOOKING FOR THE BREED, HOWEVER, I RAN FROM THE MILLS. OURS ARE VET SCREENED FOR HEALTH ISSUES AND WE GIVE A ONE YEAR HEALTH GUARANTEE. WE LOVE AND ENJOY OUR PUPS AND IT IS OUR FAMILY ENTERTAINMENT. I AGREE YES THAT THERE ARE MANY MILLS ON PUPPYFIND, AS WITH ANY AND MOST AD'S ON THE NET, HOWEVER, ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT IT IS UP TO THE CONSUMER TO CHECK OUT THESE FOLKS BY REFERENCE BEFORE THEY BUY AND MAYBE IT WILL HELP TO STAMP SOME OF THESE FOLKS OUT. ANOTHER COMMENT ON MY AD IS "IF YOU ARE A PUPPYMILL OR A BREEDER, DO NOT CONTACT ME", SO I TOO AM TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY AS I CAN AND DISCOURAGE OTHERS TO STAY AWAY FROM THEM, BUT TO LABEL ALL BREEDERS ON PUPPYFIND AS THE BAD GUYS IS JUST A BIT UNFAIR.....THANKS....  CAROL |
| OH, FORGOT TO ADD THIS....IF NOT FOR BREEDERS...WOULD THERE BE BREEDS????? AND WE HAVE 4-5 LITTERS A YEAR...THANKS |
| For the sake of discussion here......... This has nothing to do with Puppyfind. Puppyfind is just a website that sells a service for breeders to list their puppies for sale......There are many of them on the net...They are the #1 website for selling puppies now...Before it was Puppydogweb.......... Any breeder can list their litter on AKC's main website for sale......With no requiements of health testing or anything required........They just have to be AKC puppies registered thats it!!!!!!!!!!! The only differnrce is it doesn't cost anything.......Now how may people have bought a puppy from one of those listings???? Does it make it right because AKC doesn't charge???Well if they are listed on AKC website they have to be good breeders right??????? So isn't like shotting the messenger here? Kaye |
| Carol, Good for you that you tell breeders and puppymillers to stay away. So do you sell all your puppies with limited registration? Kaye |
| About that Limited Registration...and are spay/neuter contract enforced? How? |
Shug wrote: Wildflower, Back about 6 months ago an all breed rescue contacted us and had rescued 27 dogs from the Wheaton Dog Auction in Missouri. 4 of the 27 were Old English. They wanted to know if we would take them. They all came in with a rope around their necks with a auction # hanging from the rope. Well I should say 3 of them did. All of the breeders info was on the USDA paperwork that came in with them. Breeders address USDA # etc..... 3 of the girls were really in pretty good shape........I guess they didn't sell for much {$25} because of their age and wouldn't or couldn't breed any more. Mo Molly was just thrown in. There was no paperwork on her at all. Just lost her Monday... What I don't understand in this...IS .Why not contact a breed rescue with these older ones that will not breed anymore? Rescue poeple will gladly meet you and take the Babies and find them good homes to live out the rest of their lives.... Why take them to auction? Kaye
I can guarntee my puppies are very well taken care of and I have yet to get a bad review on puppyfind. All my puppies have a 1 year health guarantee...so if the dog comes up with any genetic health problem that maybe the vet somehow misses they can return the dog to me and get a full refund. In 25 yrs I have had one dog returned to me because it developed hip dysplasia. The USDA inspector was at my house just yesterday and I received a wonderful report. I believe the auction you're talking about is Bob Hughes am I correct? I have bought many dogs at his auctions and so far have good luck. As far as I know the only way a dog over the age of I believe its 6 can be put in the auction is if its a total breed sellout so people aren't just selling old dogs. When you actaully think about it 150 puppies a year is not alot...its an average of around 30 litters a year. When you have around 80 dogs 30 litters isn't much. |
| Wildflower, What do you do with your dogs when you retire them? Kaye |
| They have the run of my property I live in the country and have 19 acres for them to run on. |
| They have the run of my property I live in the country and have 19 acres for them to run on.
I assume they are altered so that they don't reproduce while running around all free and wild? And I thought you mentioned earler that you had 2? After 25 years of being in the business, with 80 adult dogs, you only have 2 old retired ones? |
| Wildflower, Your Family has been in the DOG BUSINESS for 25 years....You breed 6 different breeds..You have only had 1 puppy turn up with HD in all that time. You give a 1 year health guarantee on your puppies..You buy dogs from the Dog Auction for breeding. You retire your breeding dogs at 5 years old and they have the run of the property. You were honored with The Breeder Of The Year Award. USDA was just there and you got a excellent review...... Well What More Can I Say?? Oh you never did say who honored you with the Breeder of the Year Award.... Just Curious.........Kaye |
| Unfortunately lots of my older dogs have died. I have 6 shih tzus that will soon be retired....they'll be 5 in February. And yes my dogs are spayed/neutered when they are "retired" Sorry I missed your question earlier the Hunte corporation honored me with breeder of the year. And if you're really that curious about it the 2 huskys I retired are 9 and 10 years old. |
| I have loved some of the passion shown in some of these posts. Shug, I bet you were one of the best breeders out there, and I wish there was an award now that could honor you for being a conscience breeder.
I have been missing, and didn't realize this is where this post had gone. I have been dealing with many family issues. By the time I finished reading to the end, I thought that the thread had turned into some "bad joke". Ok, so in reality I was just hoping. Then I thought again, (I know some of you are making a joke in reference to me thinking  ) This forum reaches many people, this thread should be used as education to those wanting a puppy.
There are VAST differences between a home breeder and a commercial breeder. There is a lot of homework and research that should be done before buying a puppy. How important is socialization to you? Do you think the breeder has had enough time to give each puppy the proper love and attention, so that the puppy is well tempered when it comes to your new home? Do you feel preliminary testing is important when you go to get your puppy, if not, do you feel the guarantee that you get from your breeder will still cover your puppy if something goes wrong later on? Did you know that there are several genetic health problems that won't surface until well past a year old? Would you have ill feeling if you found out that a littermate to your puppy didn't sale at 8 weeks old, and was going to be shipped to a petshop? Would you have ill feeling if your puppies Mother had served her purpose with the breeder and was brought to a puppy auction? For those that have a stong stomach, you can google "dog auctions" and come up with information regarding what goes on during these dog auctions. When breeding dogs, there is a box on the registration slips that the breeder can mark to give "limited registration", that is too "hopefully" ensure that the pet quality puppy isn't bred. A breeder may do that for several reasons....one because breeding dogs would require lots of knowledge and they know not everyone will take the time to learn. They may also realize that not every puppy born is breeding quality. If a breeder is sticking to the "specific breed standard" there are only very few puppies born that will make the mark. There are many vets now beginning to perform early spay and neutering, this will hopefully begin to become more widely practiced. If only we could make AKC more responsible in breeding and enforce the limited registration. It would even be more wonderful if they would begin enforcing some testing before allowing dogs to breed. Well, I should step out of that perfect world I am in. Stormi |
 |
| Stormi, I really don't know if this is a Joke or not... That is the way I took it at first.....Then I thought it wasn't.....I really don't know now......Wildflower has been overly open with answers to questions....The Commercail Breeders I have dealt with have been secretive about their business... I still haven't figured out why a Commercail Breeder would join this forum of Sheepie Lovers........ None of it really makes any sence to me.......So maybe it is a Joke..... Maybe Wildflower is a ringer and is getting his or her kicks out of us struggling....Or maybe he or she is really proud of Their Business...... I don't know.......I just pick up the left overs and rejects....... I'm off to Missouri to rescue the 9 year Sheepie Major.....Who is from a Breeder in Missouri and has lived his whole life in a pen......I HATE Pens!!!!!!!!! He won't have to live in a pen anymore.........Sheepie Hugs, Kaye |
| "Shug, I bet you were one of the best breeders out there, and I wish there was an award now that could honor you for being a conscience breeder." This is a quote from Stormi's post...
Stormi...she was one of the *best *... I am holding 6 month old Blossom aka Beebles (at least the front half of her) the last of Kaye's sheepie babies to leave the nest! OH MY,what a lucky gal I am to be owned by (as Kaye says) ..."The last of the Mohicans." Beebles is a wee sheepie full of personality & sweet & loving to all uprights & puppers! I'd give her a 10 A pawfect girlie sheepie!
Kidding aside...Shug aka Kaye has a passion for this breed & tried her very best to produce healthy & well socialized babies & educate the new parents on nutrition, vaccinations & medical issues. She made my dream come true & has her heart in the right place...I love her spirit & passion! We all have a lot to learn from her...each day she takes on a new challenge! I feel like I sit on my hands too much! Some days it's just too much fun playing with a sheepie for my own good
Diane...pleeease go to the camera button to SEE Beebs' sweet face Sorry for hijacking this thread BUT I just couldn't let Stormi's comment pass without putting in my 2 cents... Thanks! OK on with the regular programing |
Shug wrote: Stormi, I really don't know if this is a Joke or not... That is the way I took it at first.....Then I thought it wasn't.....I really don't know now......Wildflower has been overly open with answers to questions....The Commercail Breeders I have dealt with have been secretive about their business... I still haven't figured out why a Commercail Breeder would join this forum of Sheepie Lovers........ None of it really makes any sence to me.......So maybe it is a Joke..... Maybe Wildflower is a ringer and is getting his or her kicks out of us struggling....Or maybe he or she is really proud of Their Business...... I don't know.......I just pick up the left overs and rejects....... I'm off to Missouri to rescue the 9 year Sheepie Major.....Who is from a Breeder in Missouri and has lived his whole life in a pen......I HATE Pens!!!!!!!!! He won't have to live in a pen anymore.........Sheepie Hugs, Kaye
You're right I am proud of my business. I figure if I'm doing all that I should be doing and I'm running a clean and honorable business then why would i shy away from questions. Questions are the way that peopel learn things, so if people wanna know something I wnat to do my best to answer their questions. To me if a commercial breeder is secretive it means they have something to hide. I have nothing to hide that's why I'm so open. As for why I am here I was doing a search about puppyfind because I have heard there are forums that do put it down. many peopel go soully on one person bad experience and since I sell on puppyfind i wnat to let people know that altho there are a few bad seeds, that most people on puppyfind are honest. |
| I might agree that there might be a few honorable people on Puppyfind, this site is a sore point, especially for people on this forum. There was one particular OES breeder with the initials DD that was regularly selling puppies on Puppyfind that ended up being deaf. Not sure if she's still selling because I'm not willing to pay $5.99 to view all of the breeder credentials. I guess my concern with Puppyfind is if the AKC is willing to do limited registration, why can't all of these breeders on Puppyfind only provide limited registration to curtail puppymills? It just really sucks that these breeders are willing to fly there dog off someplace from a purchase with a credit card and not care that these pups might not be bred properly. Right now there are puppies on Puppyfind that are touting Lambluv & Bahlambs bloodlines and I'm sure if these 2 particular reputatble breeders knew that these pups are there they would freak.
Wildflower, I do appreciate your openess contributing to this forum, but I'm not sure why you aren't putting safeguards on your pets to make sure they don't become breeding machines. ~VerveUp |
| The people I sell to are people adding dogs to their own kennels.
Thye can buy a purebred puppy frrm me for a cheaper price than a pet store. For example I may sell a shih tzu puppy for $500 including the flight and kennel cab. I've had peopel tell me they couldn't fid one for cheaper than $650 in a pet store. I have had puppies neutered or spayed for people who wnat the dog as a pet but for those who wnat it as an addition to a kennel obviosuly I don't |
| Why would a breeder ever buy from a pet store, not even someone just wanting one as a pet should buy from a pet store. IMO
It's actually against AKC and CKC rules for a breeder to sell pups to a pet store. |
Willowsprite wrote: It's actually against AKC and CKC rules for a breeder to sell pups to a pet store. Is it also against the rules to sell to a broker who sells to a pet store? |
| I can't actually find the code of ethics for the American Kennel Club, but here is a link to the official Canadian Kennel Club Code of Ethics.
I had always thought the AKC one was identical..... or close to it. http://www.ckc.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=50 http://www.ckc.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=51 79 page by law booklet http://www.ckc.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=53 Canada's Animal Pedigree Act http://www.ckc.ca/Default.aspx?tabid=139 Specifically, the OES Club of Canada's Code of Ethics http://oesocc.org/index.php?page=3.1 And finally, the OESCA Code of Ethics http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... 202000.htm I thought it said no pet stores in addition to the bit about not selling a dog for the purpose of being auctioned or raffled, but I may have been remembering our own club's code of ethics. |
| Hi Stacey,
Unfortunately, I don't think the AKC had the same outlook on selling to petshops as CKC. I found this link to AKC, and while they may not be in favor to selling to brokers or petshops, but they do not discourage or prevent it. http://www.akc.org/about/faq.cfm?page=10 I do believe most of the breed clubs make rules and regulations to prevent selling to brokers or petshops, but it doesn't do anything for breeders who are not members. I have a few questions for Wildflower, on your own posts have mentioned selling to brokers or petstores, if your puppy doesn't have a home by 8 weeks of age. Why breed so much that you aren't able to supply enough homes for them? If the petshop doesn't sell the puppy, what happens to the puppy or now older puppy then? Do you feel that the time your puppy spent waiting to find a home in the petstore that it was able to still get proper nutrition, excersise, and socialization? You also mention that in 25 years of breeding, only one dog has been reported to have hip displaysia. If you have any relatives to that dog breeding, and have knowledge of hip displaysia and genetics, have you taken the steps to alter these dogs? You say you are proud of your "business", and in those words, I would assume you are making a living and getting by on raising dogs. (If I assume wrong, please feel free to correct me.) Wouldn't it be in the business' best interest to get proper preliminary testing on your breeding stock, just for your own personal pride? Wouldn't that also ensure that these puppies that you sell to other kennels could also have the peace of mind that they will not produce a puppy with these genetic problems? If money is being made, why not go the extra step and test? Wouldn't it be more possible to then give a longer health guarantee to give your dogs and their new owners the best you can? I would assume you do not show, but do you feel that every dog that you sell as a breeder to another kennel is of breed standard? What do you feel is important attributes for an 8 week old puppy to have to be sold as a breeder? I guess that was more than just a "few" questions. I do appreciate your honesty. I have 2 sheepdogs that I was going to breed after they passed preliminary tests and turned age 2. I was doing pedigree research and found a Missouri puppy mill in the 4th and 5th generation. The commercial breeder had been shut down, which is why at first I couldn't find any information on the kennel. I finally found some information to substantiate that aggression, and hip displaysia was found in some of the dogs. I don't know if those specific dogs were in my dogs pedigree, but I was not about to chance and breed them with the possibility of bringing puppies into the world that could have social or health problems. Stormi and co. |
stormi wrote: but I was not about to chance and breed them with the possibility of bringing puppies into the world that could have social or health problems.
Thank you for caring, Stormi. Pups never ask to be born, much less with problems, but are produced as a result of the choices the owners of the dam and sire make. Those people are the ones responsible, and way too many shurk that responsibility to the the pups they choose to bring into the world. Shame on them and kudos to folks like you  |
stormi wrote: Hi Stacey,
Unfortunately, I don't think the AKC had the same outlook on selling to petshops as CKC. I found this link to AKC, and while they may not be in favor to selling to brokers or petshops, but they do not discourage or prevent it. http://www.akc.org/about/faq.cfm?page=10 I do believe most of the breed clubs make rules and regulations to prevent selling to brokers or petshops, but it doesn't do anything for breeders who are not members. I have a few questions for Wildflower, on your own posts have mentioned selling to brokers or petstores, if your puppy doesn't have a home by 8 weeks of age. Why breed so much that you aren't able to supply enough homes for them? If the petshop doesn't sell the puppy, what happens to the puppy or now older puppy then? Do you feel that the time your puppy spent waiting to find a home in the petstore that it was able to still get proper nutrition, excersise, and socialization? You also mention that in 25 years of breeding, only one dog has been reported to have hip displaysia. If you have any relatives to that dog breeding, and have knowledge of hip displaysia and genetics, have you taken the steps to alter these dogs? You say you are proud of your "business", and in those words, I would assume you are making a living and getting by on raising dogs. (If I assume wrong, please feel free to correct me.) Wouldn't it be in the business' best interest to get proper preliminary testing on your breeding stock, just for your own personal pride? Wouldn't that also ensure that these puppies that you sell to other kennels could also have the peace of mind that they will not produce a puppy with these genetic problems? If money is being made, why not go the extra step and test? Wouldn't it be more possible to then give a longer health guarantee to give your dogs and their new owners the best you can? I would assume you do not show, but do you feel that every dog that you sell as a breeder to another kennel is of breed standard? What do you feel is important attributes for an 8 week old puppy to have to be sold as a breeder? I guess that was more than just a "few" questions. I do appreciate your honesty. I have 2 sheepdogs that I was going to breed after they passed preliminary tests and turned age 2. I was doing pedigree research and found a Missouri puppy mill in the 4th and 5th generation. The commercial breeder had been shut down, which is why at first I couldn't find any information on the kennel. I finally found some information to substantiate that aggression, and hip displaysia was found in some of the dogs. I don't know if those specific dogs were in my dogs pedigree, but I was not about to chance and breed them with the possibility of bringing puppies into the world that could have social or health problems. Stormi and co. If I miss any of your questions please forgive me: I put 15 puppies on puppyfind a week ago I have now sold 12 of those 15 within a week. I very rarely have a puppy that goes to the broker. I no longer have the dog that produced the puppy with the hip dyspalsia problem, and before anyone goes jumping to conclusions she died of old age while still in my care. And that dog was one I purchased from another breeder who failed to tell me she had problems with hip dyspalsia. So far a one year health guarantee has worked for my business, I've had many people who can't believe its for a year (many other kennels around here only give a 6 month) If they were to find out the dog had a genetic probelm later after the year is up they are free to give me a call. I supply everyone with my home and cell phone # and my email address. i also encourage them all to have their own vets check it out if the like. I will admit I do quite well financially raising dogs but i also do a few little odd jobs. |
| I have quality dogs and since there are few show puppies in a litter there are a lot of pet quality available. I like to list my puppies with all their genetic tests and wins next to other dogs so people can ask why dont others test. I end up teaching a lot of people why to test.
Puppy find lists people, Its the scammers who get on there to take advantahge of the site. Can you blame AKC for puppymills... They know when they recieve requests for 40 litters everymonth for puppypapers that its not a professional!! Do you think they call those people in to the Anaimal control? no They make money from it. Puppyfind makes money mainly from the breeders. If your looking for a puppy over the internet, get references, and talk with their VETERINARIANS!!! Contact AKC to see if they are in good standings. Dont blame the puppyfind for being ripped off. Thats like blaming Yellow pages because the number you dialed was disconnected! |
| Personally I for one am getting pretty sick of buyers of puppies after having had the dog for 5 1/2 month slamming the breeder. No where did it mention what the issue was other than genetic? HOD? What? Puppyfind is a advertising alternative to newspapers, etc. Does your local paper check your credentials before advertising, I think not. there is a wealth of information available to anyone purchasing a puppyof any breed even to go as far as WHERE NOT TO Buy a puppy. Would I buy a puppy unseen, NOOOO but then you get what you pay for..Although $500.00 is not cheap for a Weim it is not spendy either, I would say average. You had at least 72 hours to have the puppy checked, did you? If the vet couldn't find anything wrong during the course of 7 months, perhaps you just made a poor choice and out of anger you are intending on burning someone, anyone. I have no doubt at all that there are breeders that should not be breeding but come on, accept responsibility for your own lack of good judgement. Just to set the record striaght, I am not a commercial breeder, puppy mill , I occassionally rescue, but on a very small scale. The dog is an animal, not a child, things happen, there is no guarantee on life human or otherwise. Although, I have sympathy for your loss, I can not sympathize with your lack of judgement and homework... |
| show breeder, hmmmm...They exhibit their dog either owner handled(especially if they have the game to pass on) or professionally...Judges are pickd to show under according to qualifications of dogs...Let's just say I have a dog with questionable movement but looks awesome in the ring...Chances are I will either show under a non movement judge or get a handler that will show under a face judge and therefore overlooking the obvious issue....Probably would go to smaller shows to acquire points until the majors ar necessary anf then that "power handler" would be utilized...More than likely one way or another with enough money I will get that dog finished...To who's advantage? Mine....And I have added a Ch to the mix....BUT should the dog have finished???? |
| The dog is an animal, not a child, things happen, there is no guarantee on life human or otherwise. Although, I have sympathy for your loss, I can not sympathize with your lack of judgement and homework...[/quote][/quote]
I am not a breeder, have never bred dogs, and probably never will - I have an OES, Patch, who is a rescue out of Hilton Head SC, rescued from a shelter when she was dumped by the breeder after being returned spayed. BUT, if I bought a dog and it died because of tragic circumstances, ie, puppymill, byb, etc, I would move heaven and earth to find those heartless fiens and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Deliberately breeding and selling sick dogs is illegal - the idea of it is enough to turn ones stomach let alone the element of illegality. It takes a real cold heart to deliberately place an animal in harms way by breeding it over and over and over thereby producing ill animas. And, as a side note, I cannot wait until I figure out how to register and get Patch's photo on here so I can join the ranks of wonderful OES rescuers. |
Anonymous wrote: stormi wrote: Hi Stacey, Unfortunately, I don't think the AKC had the same outlook on selling to petshops as CKC. I found this link to AKC, and while they may not be in favor to selling to brokers or petshops, but they do not discourage or prevent it. http://www.akc.org/about/faq.cfm?page=10 I do believe most of the breed clubs make rules and regulations to prevent selling to brokers or petshops, but it doesn't do anything for breeders who are not members. I have a few questions for Wildflower, on your own posts have mentioned selling to brokers or petstores, if your puppy doesn't have a home by 8 weeks of age. Why breed so much that you aren't able to supply enough homes for them? If the petshop doesn't sell the puppy, what happens to the puppy or now older puppy then? Do you feel that the time your puppy spent waiting to find a home in the petstore that it was able to still get proper nutrition, excersise, and socialization? You also mention that in 25 years of breeding, only one dog has been reported to have hip displaysia. If you have any relatives to that dog breeding, and have knowledge of hip displaysia and genetics, have you taken the steps to alter these dogs? You say you are proud of your "business", and in those words, I would assume you are making a living and getting by on raising dogs. (If I assume wrong, please feel free to correct me.) Wouldn't it be in the business' best interest to get proper preliminary testing on your breeding stock, just for your own personal pride? Wouldn't that also ensure that these puppies that you sell to other kennels could also have the peace of mind that they will not produce a puppy with these genetic problems? If money is being made, why not go the extra step and test? Wouldn't it be more possible to then give a longer health guarantee to give your dogs and their new owners the best you can? I would assume you do not show, but do you feel that every dog that you sell as a breeder to another kennel is of breed standard? What do you feel is important attributes for an 8 week old puppy to have to be sold as a breeder? I guess that was more than just a "few" questions. I do appreciate your honesty. I have 2 sheepdogs that I was going to breed after they passed preliminary tests and turned age 2. I was doing pedigree research and found a Missouri puppy mill in the 4th and 5th generation. The commercial breeder had been shut down, which is why at first I couldn't find any information on the kennel. I finally found some information to substantiate that aggression, and hip displaysia was found in some of the dogs. I don't know if those specific dogs were in my dogs pedigree, but I was not about to chance and breed them with the possibility of bringing puppies into the world that could have social or health problems. Stormi and co. If I miss any of your questions please forgive me: I put 15 puppies on puppyfind a week ago I have now sold 12 of those 15 within a week. I very rarely have a puppy that goes to the broker. I no longer have the dog that produced the puppy with the hip dyspalsia problem, and before anyone goes jumping to conclusions she died of old age while still in my care. And that dog was one I purchased from another breeder who failed to tell me she had problems with hip dyspalsia. So far a one year health guarantee has worked for my business, I've had many people who can't believe its for a year (many other kennels around here only give a 6 month) If they were to find out the dog had a genetic probelm later after the year is up they are free to give me a call. I supply everyone with my home and cell phone # and my email address. i also encourage them all to have their own vets check it out if the like. I will admit I do quite well financially raising dogs but i also do a few little odd jobs. I just remembered I was on this site...the above guest message was me...I had forgot to sign in. I am still selling on puppyfind and still have no complaints on my puppies. |
| Perhaps because the puppies you have sold into a life of caged misery don't know how to get in touch with you?
I'm sorry, was that out loud? |
 Huzzah, Ron! I am pretty sure that the puppies do not have a cell access either. |
| And perhaps you do not understand that when someone buys a puppy for $600 or $700 when they could get a cheaper or even free puppy that more than likely they will care for that puppy. |
| Wildflower, I am thrilled for you that you haven't gotten any complaints on your puppies. Not sure if it because your puppies are actually healthy, or that your buyers feel that they have no recourse. I am clueless why you came back to an old thread that had been quieted down for sometime now, especially since you would be subjected to being flamed again. I don't know if you've caught the gist of this thread, or this forum in general, but I would say the majority of the people on the board are against "commercial" breeders. I'm assuming this is the category you fall under since you "sell" so many breeds and basically make a living off of selling on Puppyfind. Puppyfind IMO is a glorified internet Pet Store and does not regulate the people selling on the site to ensure a healthy puppy. They are there to make money and a lot of people don't know any better than to buy from them as they think they are buying from someone reputable. |
| It's not that she's selling on puppy find, it's that she's selling to puppy MILLS
wildflower wrote: The people I sell to are people adding dogs to their own kennels. wildflower wrote: And perhaps you do not understand that when someone buys a puppy for $600 or $700 when they could get a cheaper or even free puppy that more than likely they will care for that puppy. How does that work when you've perviously posted: wildflower wrote: Thye can buy a purebred puppy frrm me for a cheaper price than a pet store.
For example I may sell a shih tzu puppy for $500 including the flight and kennel cab. I've had peopel tell me they couldn't fid one for cheaper than $650 in a pet store. Please. 
Do you ever go and visit your puppies locked in their kennels and cry and apologize to them for their lifestyle? Dang, was that out loud again? |
| I am beginning to think that perhaps reading is hard for you. Perhaps you know nothign of the prices some breeds sell for. A puppy can be bought form me for $600-700 when that same exact puppy would be sold in a per store for 900-1000 if not more. I also get that idea you aer one of these big headed egotistical people who know absolutely nothing about commercial breeders and make your accusations and assumptions based on a few bad reports or even orse on thing s like 20/20. |
| I'm actually quite sure you haven't bothered to read very many of the threads on this forum about the costs of a high quality OES puppy, or threads about purebred puppies and what to look for and what to anticipate paying, questions to ask the breeder, questions to ask yourself, etc. Perhaps you simply aren't a very good reader yourself, or perhaps it's more a matter of reading comprehension that's a problem. Certainly you don't seem to have much of a comprehension of what most people on this forum consider to be a good code of ethics for any breeder.
You do seem to understand profit margins and mass production. Too bad you don't turn your talents to mass producing low cost tee shirts instead of living, breathing puppies who deserve more thought and care into their genesis and their future than you seem willing or able to devote. |
| Funny how this old post has been dredged up, sounds like you have yet another litter to flog off now, thank goodness I live in Australia and people like you and what you do wildflower could not exist here because of our strict animal laws.
Cuppa tea time I think. |
| My reading comprehension is just fine. Dont question my intelligence I graduated when I was 15 and as for then old topic thing if you had read a post I made on the 5th page I think it was I forgot I even had came to this site. As for OES I'm sure they arent much more if even close to as expensive as a high quality bulldog.
And for your information at this time I do not have any puppies listed on puppyfind I have sold all my recent puppies out the door as christmas presents. And my dogs get very good care i am inspected 4 times a year by USDA and AKC (twice by each) surprise visits mind you and I always get a good report. |
wildflower wrote: Perhaps you know nothign of the prices some breeds sell for. wildflower wrote: As for OES I'm sure they arent much more if even close to as expensive as a high quality bulldog.
It sounds to me like you don't know much about how much breeds go for with that statement. I would suggest on an OES site, you might do a little homework before making an assumption like that. There are many factors that go into the price of a pup-- it's not just the breed that makes the difference. Do you show your dogs? As a prospective buyer, how do I know that the pups have come from parents that are to the standard and have been judged accordingly? The USDA and AKC definitely don't care about those things when they do home checks. Ultimately, I could care less about the best "bargain" when purchasing a puppy. I would want to buy a pup from someone who has dedicated their lives to the breed and knows them inside and out. Someone who has a sound breeding program and has chosen studs and dams to best better the breed. To say that you're buying dogs for breeding at auction to save money to the consumer and thinking it's ok, pretty much says it all. Just because you've been doing something for 25 years doesn't mean that you're doing it right |
wildflower wrote: I am beginning to think that perhaps reading is hard for you. Perhaps you know nothign of the prices some breeds sell for. A puppy can be bought form me for $600-700 when that same exact puppy would be sold in a per store for 900-1000 if not more. I also get that idea you aer one of these big headed egotistical people who know absolutely nothing about commercial breeders and make your accusations and assumptions based on a few bad reports or even orse on thing s like 20/20. Yup, that's me!
Good luck to you. |
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