Why does OES pop up on lists of aggressive breeds?
Most of my searches turn up breed descriptions very similar to what I've seen here. But I was alarmed to see a couple of Internet lists (yes, I know, you can't trust everything on the Internet) where the OES shows up as one of the "potentially aggressive breeds" or "breeds you may not know are aggressive". Can anyone tell me why this is? I do want to know the best and th worst of the breed, and I have no experience with OES outside of Oso. If it is indeed true that they may turn aggressive in a protective way (given that they were bred to watch over livestock - though i dont THINK they were really meant for guarding) I think this can be handled with careful training. But One of the things I like about Oso is that he really has no trace of aggression. I have seen him growl at one guy, but that guy was high and trying to talk to me outside a taqueria. He only growled as a warning when the guy tried to pet him. And he did seem a bit uneasy, as long as the guy was still talking to me, but followed my cues to let him be while we waited for our burritos. If this is what is meant by potentially aggressive, that can be handled. Thoughts? Merrilee |
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| Because the people who assemble lists don't actually do the research that they should to make such lists. Most of the 'best' and 'Worst' list published lately have been so far off make that I really think they make them up to cause a stir as that's all people really end up talking about... how bad the list was or where they missed this or how could this place/thing NOT be on there or how could this place/thing possibly be on this list. Those things are as bad as political surveys - do they really mean anything to anyone who can think with their own brain? I intentionally skew any survey I take just to ad my own point!!! Vnace |
| Thanks Vance! Of course these were my thoughts as well, but I wanted reassurance from those in the know :p By the way, have you seen the protective tendencies I speak of? If so, how strong can they be? |
| i have had oes for 30 yrs and never had one that was maybe bitchy lol but mostly all loves |
| My Angus wouldn't hurt a flea....he loves everyone he sees. When we had Pooh Bear and we had him over 12 years, I know of only a couple times that he had issues. It was with the same couple of people who were alcoholics and did drugs.(black sheep family members who we "HAD" to see once in a while) He would growl at them. He could sense something was not right about them. He knew something wrong. But he never did anything else than growl. He just had such a keen sense with this. I really didn't trust these people either. |
| A well bred sheepdog from a reputable breeder will not have a hint of aggression to them. And most of the rest wont have any either. But you can google the following for every dog breed: [breed name] + aggression and there will be a lot of results from people looking for help with their aggressive (insert breed). They are all dogs after all, and there can always be individual dogs with behavioural or aggression issues regardless of breed. My two younger girls, Mady and Gracie are protective of the house (including the backyard) moreso at night. OMG if a squirrel dares enter our backyard and Mady or Gracie sees it! It's defcon4! But they will ignore squirrels on the street or at the park (I guffawed once I was walking all three girls on the sidewalk right past a little bunny out in the open not 4 feet away. The bunny was frozen watching my girls. My girls walked past without even noticing). They would definitely make a ruckus if someone was to try and break in, and I'm not sure what Mady would be capable of if some stranger were to actually attack my wife. But their default attitude to everyone is "you must be my best friend" and they are very gentle with small children. We have had a few encounters with aggressive dogs and all 3 of my girls' only reaction is to get away. |
| Archie gets attacked and bitten all the time by other dogs he never attacks them back, he never has any residual fear with a particular dog or type of dog because of these attacks, wanting to say hello the next time he meets them. But if he were to respond at all physically aggressive, being a big dog with a big bark, those very same people who fail to control their dogs would soon be spreading one sided tails no doubt about lovely Archie in the negative light. I think I help in this regard from my response in a relaxed manner when the occasions happen. They have to be one of the most lovely dogs out their in terms of friendliness, if owned properly. BIG loveable goofballs! |
| Pooh Bear was always gentle with everyone except those 2 people. He would run the opposite way if something scared him. He loved bables. He would smell them and give them a quick lick. He was a real sweetheart and no aggression any other time. He didn't trust these people and he seemed to know that they needed to keep their distance from us to protect us. There was always the "bark..bark" when someone knocked on the door or rang the doorbell, but when you opened the door.....it was a quick hello and I love you-whoever you are!!!! |
| I know of at least two OES that were "aggressive." One was my Jake. He was a bone (but not food) guarder and he was also stubborn. He would lock down on my arm regularly. When he was 11 he got sick and it turned out that his neutering wasn't done properly and he had been intact the whole time and now he had a Sertoli tumor in his cryptorchid. After his remaining cancerous testicle was removed, he became the sweetest old man ever and lived to be 13 1/2. The other was a rescue that had to be put down by the agency after he viciously attacked the placement director's husband while being walked in the woods. He was a VERY experienced dog walker. All breeds have variation in temperament. In general OES are not aggressive. But they are living beings, not manufactured robots. Good luck! |
| Oh! Poor Jake! I am sorry he had to suffer through that. But I'm glad to hear he was able to live the last part of his life with peace and balance. Just too bad it took so long to figure out where his stubborn behavior came from. And who knows what may have been the issue with that rescue. As you say, dogs are living beings and there will always be variations and anomalies. I do hope the placement director's husband was ok... |
Merkalee wrote: Oh! Poor Jake! I am sorry he had to suffer through that. But I'm glad to hear he was able to live the last part of his life with peace and balance. Just too bad it took so long to figure out where his stubborn behavior came from. And who knows what may have been the issue with that rescue. As you say, dogs are living beings and there will always be variations and anomalies. I do hope the placement director's husband was ok... Eh - stubborn is part of the breed's make-up. Just so you know. There is no connection with aggression, except that a dog may be both  The placement director's husband was fine after 100 plus stitches. Count OES as one of the breeds were rage may appear, though it's rare and not diagnostically straight-forward in any breed. If you talk to long time groomers and vets the breed was hated for many years. Mainly for giving no warning and biting like they meant it (my aunt was a professional groomer who worked in conjunction with a vet clinic a zillion years ago, as well as an Afghan breeder, so she KNOWS dogs. Only dog who ever bit her and did any serious damage? An OES  ) It's much better than it used to be, but they aren't all angels by any means.Kristine |
| Our first Sheepie, Bentley, came to us at the age of four and a half. He spent most, if not all that time in a yard with little to no human contact save the old woman who owned him. He was very dog-aggressive and I'm betting purely out of fear. He didn't know how to play and was actually startled with this new thing he discovered in his new home; it was called affection! He LIVED for affection, especially from Jen. He thus became VERY protective of her. Anytime a new person come over, Bentley would position himself laying between them and Jen. If they got where he thought was too close, he'd stand up and just watch them. It took us a while to notice this. He was never aggressive or anything, but always on watch. I never worried about Jen walking him alone as I know if anyone would have attempted anything, they surely would have suffered the wrath of all that time spent in the old lady's yard and probably in one strike. By the time of his passing, two years after we got him, he did settle down a lot on the dog-aggression issue, but never enough for us to take him to a dog park. Zoey has been since day one with Caitlyn, very protective of her. We've seen her 'nose' other dogs away who she didn't approve of, all rather lady-like. We've grown to love this aspect of our dogs, so long as they can keep this in check on their own and so far, they all have. After all, what fun would a dog be if they didn't show any care for us as we go crazy showing love and affection for them, protecting them from all that we do? Vance |
| I may be wrong in this, and if I am I know many of the more educated people here will post and correct me. But my understanding was that for a long time there wasn't a temperament part of the breed's standard. During the 70's the breed was quite popular, thanks to tv shows like Please Don't Eat the Daisy's, and movies like the Shaggy DA. So popularity resulted in much more frequent breedings by people that even if they were breeding to standard, that was a standard that didn't have temperament requirements like it does now. I know many people that are adults now who were bitten by Sheepdogs as children- my sister among them- back in the 1970's and even the early 80's. This may have contributed to the label of aggressive. I know recently, many dog owners at the park will view sheepdogs' herding behavior as being 'aggressive'. They are bossy herders, poking other dogs with their nose, or using their bodies to direct the subject of their attention. It doesn't look like fun playtime, so why not label it as aggressive. Herding dogs with a good drive for the activity are going to herd at the park where a large number of dogs are collected, rather than play like other breeds might. I think this may be another contributing factor to the incorrect label of "aggressive". |
| I think Allison is on to something. First their popular period saw a lot of OES on the market and poor breeding was common. Just as one bad apple will spoil the barrel, so too a bad dog used for breeding will affect future generations.....contaminate the gene pool if you wish. Such a shame the breed standard had to add good temper to the standard......anyway, aside from the poorly bred, we also have the herding nature. Watch the way sheepdogs play, rough, tumble that puts many people off and they end up tagging the breed aggressive. Others dogs are initially put off by sheepdogs......eyes may be covered, no tail to signal mood, herding instincts and general clownish attitude that is often over the top to some shy lap dog. Finally there is basic socialization from puppyhood. The puppymill animals come out.....brain damaged.....for lack of a better term. Those confined to pens with minimal human contact have some curious tempers......skiddish, aggressive, etc. Also resource guarding if not handled by the bitch or the whelp uprights......and allowed to continue by the owners leads to potentially explosive dogs. Some dogs are just plain bad.....for any number of reasons. As said above, they are not robots, they are living, breathing, thinking and reacting creatures who need proper guidance initially and a kind but firm owner for life. They aren't a good breed for a new dog owner unless that owner commits to getting help from sheepdog knowledgeable trainers and groomers. |
Vance - I just love your comments above! Of course we all love to see how our dogs care  Last week I was watching Disney's "Up", which made me cry, and Oso came to me and cocked his head trying to figure out what was wrong. He then ran and got me his favorite toy! But once he sensed that it was something from the TV that was making me sad, he took up a position in between me and the TV to "protect" me from it. It was so sweet! And as I mentioned, he did warn the druggie at the taqueria away from me, and I don't disapprove of that!Allison and Susan - Thank you!!! That is exactly what I was looking for. I figured that maybe there had been some indiscriminate breeding (and ownership?) for some reason at some point in the past that had led to this unfortunate stereotype - like the popularity of Dalmatians in the 90s. I feel terrible for the dogs that are are the products of popular demand like that. And I could not think of why OES popularity might have spiked in the last few decades (I could only think of the original The Shaggy Dog with Fred MacMurray :p). I feel that I should add that this will be the first dog that I am the primary owner/caretaker for. We did have a family Lab when I was a teenager, but this will be my first dog as an adult. But I AM committed to doing everything that needs to be done for the particular dog I welcome into my home - and I'm trying to do my research. And fortunately, I do have the time to devote to training. In fact, I look forward to it! I also have other experience with dogs and with training. They just happened to be dogs that were not mine (but who nonetheless sometimes looked to me as Alpha if they didn't have consistent leadership in their own home :p). And having Oso in my home for 5 weeks is a good trial run. He and I are doing quite well together I'm about to give an update on the separation anxiety thread... Today was a triumph! |
| Archie is my first dog - we never had dogs as a kid both next door neighbours had collies which I used to walk. I couldn't have had a better first dog experience (some people advised me to start with a smaller dog?) I don't know where it started or how but I ALWAYS wanted an OES. I can only really think that a lot of general info websites skew info on basically what is posted about most (they are after all trawling websites and not all owners) a bit like car forums you mainly get people posting about problems and asking for help so none of those cars are any good as no body bothers to post as such. People should make the effort to use dedicated sites such as these with people who actually own a dog of that type. Not some moronic list of team members who all have computing degrees in software manipulation yet no actual experience of the information they provide. |
| Good points, Slave. One of the so-called lists I saw (which I can't even find now) was put together by some doctor who treats people. I think it said she had a family practice or something. And the reasons cited have something to do with their history "guarding" livestock. I may be mistaken, but there is a difference between herding and guarding, is there not? That's exactly why I started my research and questions right here on the OES forum! So many people, even here on this forum, say that an OES is not necessarily a good first dog though. I mean, they are a lot of dog to handle! Good to hear that you have had a positive experience with and OES as a first dog. I'm fairly certain I'm prepared to handle their needs. My cousin's husband breeds APBTs and screens his potential owners really well and he said that my fiance and I are exactly the type of people he'd like to see get one of his puppies. I've never wanted a Pittie, but if he thinks we are responsible enough to handle a powerful dog like that, that makes me feel pretty good! And, though my love of the breed is very new, I am more and more determined every day that I want on OES in my future. Oso is currently behind me waiting patiently in his crate while I await delivery of our leather sofa (which we are specifically getting so it won't hold dog odors) and I DON'T WANT HIM TO GO HOME NEXT WEEK!!! Archie is adorable, by the way |
| leather sofa is a GREAT idea! My girls get very dirt paws; that long hair really holds the mud- and its nice to just wipe down the leather sofa! |
| Allison - this is something we've planned on for years because we know a dog is in our future Yep! Drool, mud, poop they've rolled in at the park... Just wipe it down! |
| Interesting you should mention dalmatians as I own a sheepie and a dalmo. Dalmatians had a bad rap for aggression here in Aust. for a while too and it was at the height of their popularity after the movie. Not only was there indiscriminate breeding but also a lot of people who really shouldn't have gotten a dog bought them. People who had no experience with dogs, weren't interested in learning about managing a dog and then once they weren't cute 'little' puppies anymore shoved them out in the backyard bought them because they were soooo cute and then wondered why the dog bit their kids.  If I had to predict I'd expect my dalmo to be more likely to behaviour aggressively as he's soft and gets frightened if shouted at or attacked. I've never seen Tiggy show an ounce of aggression towards humans but she wasn't impressed when a terrier attacked her out of the blue and she reacted more strongly than I expected. Mind you he bit her face and it would have hurt so I don't blame her but you never can tell. |
SheepieBoss wrote: Such a shame the breed standard had to add good temper to the standard....... It didn't. The AKC OES breed standard was updated in 1990 per the AKC's requirement of more uniformity of all breed standards to make it easier for the judges studying the standards. One of the requirements was a section on temperament. It wasn't a reflection of the crappy temperaments in the pet population in the preceding decades, though you'd certainly be excused for thinking that would have been the driving force. Kristine |
| See? I knew someone with better information would set me straight if I had gotten it wrong! Thanks! |
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