Is agressive behavior common in sheepdogs?
One thing that I have noticed is that there are many cases of agression, many of them sudden and from a formerly very friendly dog. I just wondered if this is a common problems with the old english sheepdog. Does the sheepdog have aggression issues as a general rule, as in, is it a sheepdog trait? Or is it because of a lack of socialization and structure and activity that this breed of dog needs? I do know that it depends on the situation but it just seems that there are so many of these dogs that are having this problem. I currently have a german shepherd. He is actually a bit shy and I have to watch closely that he is not put in situations that he cannot handle. There are a surprising number of people that will ignore the warning signs that he is giving that he is very uncomfortable and therefore they need to back off. He has never bitten anyone but I am sure that pushed to far he would snap to protect himself. So I am not unused to the need for careful watching of the dog and ensuring people respect his needs and also the need to keep rules in place for him and making sure that he is mentally stimulated to keep him from getting bored and therefore nervous and into trouble. But what really drew me to the sheepdog was their happy go lucky, love life kind of attitude. If there is a big chance that even with socializing, training, boundries, and lots of stimulation that my sweet dog would suddenly start biting people I just am not sure if this would in fact be the right breed for me. I only want to be sure that the breed I choose would be the best for me. Thanks so much for reading my rambling post and thanks for any info you can give me. |
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| Gosh, most of the OES's are snuggle bugs. You may run across a couple who have issues, but I think you would find that in most breeds. But all in all, you couldn't find a better breed who love their people and love everyone else, too. They are true "velcro dogs". |
| Well-bred sheepdogs which meet the breed standards do not have any aggression: "An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness." The sheepdogs I have met (including my own!) from good breeding lines exceed this standard. They should be extremely tolerant, sweet, social, and exuberantly friendly dogs. The sheepdogs I have met which have more temperamental issues originated from careless, irresponsible breeding and/or rescues with abusive histories. Every dog needs training and structure to thrive, but you want to pick your "starting point" based on your needs. There are great, experienced people who are capable of managing more difficult rescues. A much safer approach is a dog, puppy or older from a reputable breeder who can prove their breeding quality (with health testing etc) and who put a priority on the typical wonderful sheepdog temperament. |
| Hi! I just found your forum and registered - wrote a post reply, but don't see it here, so: We lost our 14 year old loving Bearded Collie in August and can't bring ourselves to get another Beardie so we have been looking into OES and other purebreds plus the "doodles" We were narrowing our search to OES when the number of aggression issue articles online and now here have given us pause and concern. We are experienced in training and understand some of these issues come from the lack of it or improper application of techniques, but how do we find a good breeder with trustworthy lines of the "typical" OES as described in the standard? Looking for good breeder resource lists. Thanks. |
| I have been around and met lots of sheepdogs. Poorly bred, well bred and everything in between. Aggression is not something I have ever seen. Shyness in some of the poorly bred ones but once they warm up to someone, they become the sweet, happy lap dogs all sheepdogs think they are. Find a breed club in your area and meet some sheepies! I did go out of the country for 2 weeks and when I came back Lil was a hot mess. My fiance isn't a great leader with the dogs and sheepies need a strong leader especially lily. (He kinda lets them do whatever, no structure or training but that's how his mom raised her dogs.) It took about 3 weeks for her to be back to her fun loving sheepie self but she is completely back to normal now. Lily also isn't the best bred dog either but I wouldn't trade her for the world. |
sann4dogs wrote: Hi! I just found your forum and registered - wrote a post reply, but don't see it here, so: We lost our 14 year old loving Bearded Collie in August and can't bring ourselves to get another Beardie so we have been looking into OES and other purebreds plus the "doodles" We were narrowing our search to OES when the number of aggression issue articles online and now here have given us pause and concern. We are experienced in training and understand some of these issues come from the lack of it or improper application of techniques, but how do we find a good breeder with trustworthy lines of the "typical" OES as described in the standard? Looking for good breeder resource lists. Thanks. Doodles are over priced mutts. Rescue if you are set on these. There is no standard for these dogs and no breeder can tell you how the pups are going to turn out. Find a breed club in your area (which I recommend, meet some sheepies!) or go to the akc breeder website. Sheepies do need a strong leader but they are not supposed to have aggression issues. |
| I appreciate the referrals to the akc website and breed clubs - these I am aware of, I guess my question really is based on previous posts to find a good breeder: I know from years of rescue work and researching for breeders of Beardies and my Boston Terrier that there are differences in even those qualified breeders' lines that contribute to temperament-how they are maintained, are they used for herding, are they tested, etc. I cannot seem to find where to research the lines more specifically. I may be looking in the wrong places on those sites. It has been a long time since I researched herding breeds and when I did I was familiar with the beardies, their breeders and the typical temperaments from certain lines. What question should I ask or where can I learn more about specific lines and the history of them in behavior, etc. As far as Doodles go, I don't consider any dog an overpriced mutt - the breeders may be asking more than they should, but we are focused on finding the right family member and we'll make the right choice for us and our budget. Rescue is certainly not out of the question for whichever dog we choose we adopt. I do understand what you mean though. Thanks. |
Sweetest, most gentle animal I have ever known. Both of our Sheepies have been the love of our lives.  |
| In regards to the question about nasty tempered OESdogs: AnInnocentEvil wrote: I did go out of the country for 2 weeks and when I came back Lil was a hot mess. My fiance isn't a great leader with the dogs and sheepies need a strong leader especially lily. (He kinda lets them do whatever, no structure or training but that's how his mom raised her dogs.) ) It took about 3 weeks for her to be back to her fun loving sheepie self but she is completely back to normal now. Lily also isn't the best bred dog either but I wouldn't trade her for the world I agree with this point, Sheepdogs are incredibly smart and the ones I have known like to have boundaries. It doesn't have to be fancy, we follow basic positive marker training principals and continually re-enforce good manners. My family has owned and loved OES dogs for years and here are 2 examples the illustrate the benefits of doing your homework: Puppy Mill: 26 years ago my family had a sheepdog which they got shortly before I was born. My mother has admitted that the dog had been a gift for her that somebody had ordered from an add in the paper from a breeder in Canada (later figured out it was a puppy mill) and my parents didn't put much time into training as they had a new baby in the house. The result was a dog with some nasty tendencies. My mum loved the sheepdog breed but didn't know at the time about puppy mills and the importance of researching and planning for/training a dog (of any breed). Reputable Breeder: Later in life when I was a lot older my Mum happened upon an adult Sheepdog who was going to be put to sleep because the owners were moving away and could not take her. We lived in the middle east and there were no rescues or shelters where we lived. Our family ended up adopting Hailey; she was a show dog from a well known and respected breeder in the U.K. she had been well bred and well trained. She was the PERFECT example of the breed and was very even tempered, laid back, loyal and friendly. This dog was what the majority of sheepdogs are. In regards to finding a breeder: My first question when I was talking to breeders was about temperament; OESdogs are gorgeous (perhaps the most attractive dogs out there... just my opinion) but I would say the best aspect of the breed is their affectionate, loyal and intelligent disposition. This summer we added an OES puppy to our family and he comes from a fantastic breeder who truly cares about the breed; he is perfect. He is super cuddly, playful, fun, smart and not aggressive in any way shape or form even as he has entered the "adolescent" phase; his temperament is the most gentle and loving you could imagine. Ask the breeders what steps they take to ensure a solid temperament and if possible see if you can meet their dogs. Ask the breeder what kind of health issues they see in their lines, what kind of guarantees they give for health. Ask the breeder what type of health certifications they have done on their dogs, you can look these up on the AKC or CKC website I believe, but ask for proof of health checks if you are uncertain. Ask owners of Sheepdogs on this forum, people will likely not always post names of breeders on a board but see if you can private message somebody in your area and ask them about where they got their dog from. If somebody has had a good experience they are likely to share it, same goes for bad experiences. Our breeder offered advice on training and puppy care and asked us questions about our experiences owning dogs to make sure a sheepdog was a good fit. P.S. A note about "designer dogs": The point of getting any type of dog from a good breeder is you can predict some of the traits they will have and perhaps get a dog that matches your living situation and lifestyle unfortunately this isn't true of a doodle. although you will pay a high price for the doodle (we have seen adds for doodles that are the same if not more than what we paid for our Sheepdog) what you will get may be completely different from the traits of the parent breeds. There is no one standard or a common set of traits; which usually is the reason one selects a puppy from a breeder instead of adopting a mixed breed dog. We adopted a large wiry black mutt from a rescue who we later found out is a "labradoodle". I have met several "doodles" who are great dogs but they are all so different from each other and some have major and varied health and temperament issues. (My dog is included in this, he began having pretty serious joint issues at only a year of age). He is also a "wiry" labradoodle (look it up, it happens) who sheds, at times profusely (I know of soft coated doodles who also shed a lot). I can't comment definitively on his temperament issues as I don't know how much of it is genetic and how much is due to his horrific puppyhood. He is shy to the extreme and I have heard this is increasingly common among doodles- I do not trust him around very young children. He is highly energetic and requires lots and lots of running both on and off leash (poodle trait I believe as every lab I know is way more chilled out than Ru). Although he is intelligent and a fantastic dog and I would adopt him again in a heart beat the key word there is adopt. I have met several owners of "re homed" doodles at the dog park so there are lots out there in rescues/shelters. Good luck with your search, it is a good thing you are doing your homework and make sure you take the time to look into the breeder if you decide on any type of purebred dog. Finding a good breeder is important; even the experts Cesar Millan and Dr. Ian Dunbar both warn of the perils of puppy mills in their puppy training books as bad breeding and early puppyhood can have a major effect on the adult dog. There is boatloads of information on finding a good breeder on this forum. Sorry for the novel, I just thought I would share my experience with a "doodle" as well. |
| The only way to research lines is to talk to the breeders - there's no online "this line tends to produce this" and less of a distinction between working and showlines than you may find in some herding breeds. Actually, probably less than just about any herding breed as no one is breeding specifically for instinct/ability alone (if at all) There are basically showlines and those bred specifically for the pet market, and unfortunately not very selectively. In show lines it's pretty rare to find aggression, (and if it happens it tends to be culled pretty quickly as a dog who can't handle a judge going over him or her, or other dogs around them, generally doesn't do well in the show ring to put it politely; this tends to rule out things like nervousness and shyness, never mind the sharp dominance aggression the breed used to be known for when it was heavily overbred). The variances in temperament, still talking showlines, seem to be more along the lines of biddability and energy levels, but that will vary even within a litter, and a good breeder will take into account what type of dog your family needs and even tell you, sorry, I just don't have the right puppy for you in this litter, if that's the case. The best place to meet breeders is either at dog shows or find out if you have a local club in your area and invite yourself to their meetings. If you want to get a breeder's attention it's best to wait until after ring time. You can watch the dogs in the ring and then stalk the breeders back to their set-ups (they often groom together, or at least in groups) And then get your hands on some dogs and get a feel for the various dog's temperaments (we all think our dogs temperaments are the best, pretty much <g> , but I may like a more spirited type of dog, who, say, sees nothing wrong with perching on counters for sport, whilst, well, you may not be so thrilled with a dog from a line which has essentially been selected for climbing ability.  Then again, coming from beardies, you might find your average OES pretty laidback in comparison. But overall, though things like biddability, energy levels, play/prey drive etc may vary, the breed's temperament should (only!) be as David/Baba quoted. It's equally as disturbing to those of us IN the breed to see a spike in "aggressive dog" questions. Some times it is basic handling. The breed has shifted more towards softer dogs over the years as they tend to be more idiot proof than the harder headed dogs of yore who bit first and asked questions later when faced with a lack of leadership. You can still find nice and some times even wonderful temperaments in more casually bred OES. But, like doodles, when breeding is pretty arbitrary that kind of thing becomes a lot harder to predict. Kristine |
Thanks everybody for the great response to my question.With this info I am glad to say that a OES can stay on my possibilities list!  |
| Our first OES came from what is described a "back yard" breeder. I wouldn't have traded Pooh Bear in for anything else. He was my love and a faithful, devoted partner for my husband. Angus (our 2nd dog) is my 2nd love and is a sweetheart from the go. The only difference between the two that I can see, is Angus has a stronger herding instinct than Pooh ever did. Pooh had the ability to sense people who were alcoholics and drug users and never liked them. I always thought he would have made a great drug sniffing dog. You will not be disappointed if you choose this wonderful breed, this is why we are so devoted to them. |
Mad Dog wrote: You can still find nice and some times even wonderful temperaments in more casually bred OES. But, like doodles, when breeding is pretty arbitrary that kind of thing becomes a lot harder to predict. Hi again, I just wanted to emphasize this as it really is at the core of what makes good breeding. Any and all dogs are complex biological animals, so there will never be a 100% rock-solid guarantee. But it's all about trends and probability. I am sure someone could find an example of an absolute stunning individual dog in temperament and health, that came from the most unethical, unconscionable, and cruel puppy mill. Dumb luck comes into play. Good breeding in most dog breeds involves a very conscious, deliberate attempt to reduce the risk of negative features and promote the positive features (what those specific features are varies by breed, if your focus is on a livestock guarding dog, the desired temperament would be very different from a sheepdog, and sadly, there are some breeds of dogs, especially with some toy dogs, where certain desired features end up actually being unhealthy for the dog, thankfully this has not been the case with sheepdogs). And once the puppies are born, a responsible breeder is also taking measures to promote the health and temperament of the litter and promote good qualities. Genetics of a puppy aside, it makes a big difference for a litter being raised in a household with their mother, getting lots of attention, quality food, proper vaccinations, de-worming etc, mental stimulation and socialization, vs. a puppy mill litter removed from the mother at 4 weeks, neglected and under-exercised in a kennel, and sold to unsuspecting naive buyers at 6 weeks. Nothing is guaranteed, a puppy from the latter situation may still turn out to be a great dog, but it's a numbers game, chances are much better for the former puppies to turn into great dogs. And speaking about oodles, I don't think anyone's trying to be mean by calling them "mutts", it's more drawing attention to the fact that the pedigree is not really established for them, even a good oodle breeder, who's mixing quality individuals from both breeds, really can't predict the results of the mixing. It's all about numbers, and with any good breeders for any well established dog breed, you should have a very high probability of knowing exactly what to expect with your puppy. Even within a litter, a good experienced breeder will probably be able to tell you with high confidence that "this puppy will be an alpha, she will be fun but she will challenge you, so she's best suited for this type of owner" and "this puppy will be the sweetest push-over, he's going to be marshmellow and he's best suited for this other type of owner".  hope I'm not putting anyone to sleep!  |
AnInnocentEvil wrote: I did go out of the country for 2 weeks and when I came back Lil was a hot mess. My fiance isn't a great leader with the dogs and sheepies need a strong leader especially lily. (He kinda lets them do whatever, no structure or training but that's how his mom raised her dogs.) It took about 3 weeks for her to be back to her fun loving sheepie self but she is completely back to normal now. Lily also isn't the best bred dog either but I wouldn't trade her for the world. Let me elaborate on this. Lily is very head strong (not the case with all sheepies) She acted up quite a bit when I got back. Getting into food, onto counters, garbage etc. She didn't have any aggression with people but there was one instance where she went after 2 puppies (no contact was made) since then she has happily played with puppies, small dogs, cats, other small animals with no incidents and doesn't get into anything. I did get her vet checked and shes 100% healthy. She does need a lot of leadership and my fiance, in the eyes of the dogs, is just another playmate. Lily (except for that little blip) has been a normal, even tempered, sometimes a little too friendly, happy, silly sheepdog. I definitely learned that just knowing there is a leader around is important with her. My first foster Jack (lily's brother) was/is not that way. Even the most novice of owners could have handled him. He quickly learned and leadership was not an issue with him. One of the easiest dogs. His former owners did nothing with him and just tied him up outside. Due to a lack of socialization he was shy with new people outside of the house. Once he figured out that they were there to love him, he was all about the new people. All the sheepies I have met are the most wonderful, loving dogs. Lily's my first sheepie and I couldn't imagine my life without her. I will always have a sheepdog or two. Be careful though. Once you get one, you'll want another. |
My sheepie sees my husband as another playmate... he lets him get away with everything (such as unwrapping ALL the presents under the Christmas tree). I was in total agreement with your statement  |
bruuruu wrote: My sheepie sees my husband as another playmate... he lets him get away with everything (such as unwrapping ALL the presents under the Christmas tree). I was in total agreement with your statement Wow that sounds oddly familiar. My fiance had lily help unwrap all his presents this year...lol |
| I too want to thank everyone for your comments (and apologize to Racoonlassie if it appears I jumped into the thread rather than adding to it) My posts about Doodles was that they were on the list until we narrowed it to OES and started researching - that's when the aggression question came up. While I do basic research online, I use it to determine which breeders I would want to contact by phone, in person and at a show or club meeting. You have all given me good information to begin a more intensive search. We still miss our beardie and want to take our time looking for the right rescue, puppy or teen or adult to welcome into our life. We live on a small farm with a 4 llamas & 3 miniature horses so we want a dog who can enjoy our lifestyle too. Thank you all! |
I have 2 from the same litter (which I would not recommend...EVER) Both are just over a year. My male is the alpha...and wants to be the alpha of our home. He is very smart and listens...but must have structure. Our female is a love bug. Both dogs are very affectionate...which includes wanting to jump on every person that enters our home. We try to control this with "sit"...every time. My kids are teens and love to romp with them. Hide and seek...and keep away. They are extremely busy dogs...very nosy. They love to help me empty the dishwasher  and clear the dinner table. Although we have a fenced yard...they do not want to be outside alone. They want to play with us. They are a handful...not a lap dog and not a lay around lazy dog. Be prepared to keep them busy. We love them...but they are not a frivolous aquisition. |
| I know this is an obvious - statistics 101 - point, but it is worth a reminder. Reading a message board of owners seeking advise i.e a small self selected group of people who by definition have problems is not the place to gain information on what is typical. Though OES's are not commonly aggressive, any individual dog, of any breed, can be. Temperament testing as well as finding a reputable breeder will help you select the individual dog that is right for you regardless of breed. |
| Hi, I also have an OES who is the sweetest most loveable dog I have every owned. I take him to a care facility here in my town and he is a ham. He can't get enough pets and snuggles. BUT that doesn't mean that all OES are like that. I agree with the 'Winniesmom' the poster above, in that a lot of factors come into play regarding the temperament of a dog. Their genetics, their environment, their people family and how how they are trained to interact and coincide with humans and other animals. I have seen many breeds with not the best reputations be fantastic pets and working dogs and others who are known to be great breeds end up being at the top of the list for most the most instances of people attending emergency rooms on account of dog bites! YIKES! I think it is important to not only evaluate a dogs temperament but also how the breed in general fits your lifestyle. It is always wise to consider things like exercise, shedding, grooming, and size of any dog when selecting a breed. At any rate, it is great that you asked a forum of actual OES owners rather than taking for ‘batem’ what you read on general information websites. My best information source ended up coming from the woman whom we obtained our OES from. She was a wealth of information and visiting her in her home with her family and dogs is what sold us on getting our dear Mungo. Cheers and Good Luck! Theresa |
Duke and Daisy's mom wrote: I have 2 from the same litter (which I would not recommend...EVER) Both are just over a year. My male is the alpha...and wants to be the alpha of our home. He is very smart and listens...but must have structure. Our female is a love bug. Both dogs are very affectionate...which includes wanting to jump on every person that enters our home. We try to control this with "sit"...every time. My kids are teens and love to romp with them. Hide and seek...and keep away. They are extremely busy dogs...very nosy. They love to help me empty the dishwasher and clear the dinner table. Although we have a fenced yard...they do not want to be outside alone. They want to play with us. They are a handful...not a lap dog and not a lay around lazy dog. Be prepared to keep them busy. We love them...but they are not a frivolous aquisition.I agree they aren't lazy lay around dogs. Smart and busy is kind of an understatement, at least with Lily. Despite their size, they are lap dogs. At least they think they are. I haven't met an OES yet that doesn't believe they are a lap dog and should be in your lap if your sitting down. Lily knows isn't allowed to just jump into people's laps but that doesn't stop her. When we go to our local bar, lil notices that I'm not watching and there is an open lap, she is there. |
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