Help with weaves
I decided to go back to two poles to work on entries as Tiggy was missing the more acute entries. We have some handicaps like my back courtyard is tiny so we don't do a lot of distance entries. Tiggy keeps accidentally snapping my fingers as she gets excited and re-grabs the tugger. On occasion it really hurts and I can't help but yelp. Tiggy shuts down a little then, can't blame her but boy she hurts. So I decided to throw the sheepskin tugger but not tug with it and treat instead. That is saving my fingers. Then I noticed Tiggy was watching my hand to see when I'd throw the tugger, which means she can be looking over her shoulder, which means she misses the entry because she doesn't know where it is. Anyone else experienced anything like this or have good ideas on how best to train weave entries given these circumstances??? Last night I played with leaving her tugger at the far end of the weaves but I have to be with her or she just goes and gets it - bypassing the weaves. I do not have a human training assistant at home. DH does not have the patience. |
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| The way they are having us do it in class is to walk backwards along the side of the poles, and lead your dog through them by having it follow the treat in your hand. |
| Jade - generally speaking, there are a number different ways to teach weaves and all of them can work, but the method you're using is the hardest to morph into good weaves. Do they have channel weaves or anything like that where you train? If it was spring and you have a bit of yard with grass, you could make some inexpensive channel weaves (Dawn knows how), get some guidewires and work her that way. Otherwise she is going to get used to you 1) walking backwards, which you will not typically be doing once she's trained, which means she has to be weaned off of that and 2) she isn't really learning how to weave if she's following your hand - I still see people in trials whose dogs can only weave if they're using they're hands to tell them when and where to move. It's hard to move confidently and quickly through the weaves when you're waiting for someone's directions, and that puts the onus on you. When they started training agility, a few decades ago, this is how they taught weaves and really talented trainers were able to wean their dogs off these things. But most of us are just, you know, normal trainers  Mim - I've never used the 2 x 2 method. Have been told it creates fabulous entries though. I was going to say toss the toy when she hits the entry or whatever you're trying to achieve. That gets the reward OFF you and you're reinforcing forward movement. But if she's watching your hand, yes, you have a problem. One thing you can do in the mean time, separate from the weaves, is wait for her to look away from you/ahead of you and toss toy so that she learns she doesn't have to be staring at you for toy to appear. Tugging is a better reward for weaves than food (builds more excitement, if you can figure out a way to protect your extremities  So understand that one. Mace is so-so on tugging, been working with her on that. And, yet, when she does, she has no clue where she's putting her teeth half the time. NOT FUN!)Is there anyone at class who can help you figure out how to overcome that? I train alone too, so I understand not having a helper thing. Kristine |
| I'm just following what the trainer told me to do, I didn't think walking backwards made much sense considering how much emphasis she put on having the dog used to us being on both sides of her and whatnot, and I didn't see anyone walking backwards by the weaves at nationals (of course I also didn't see that much of agility due to the cold). But I figured she knows more than I do, seeing as I've never even been agility, but you're making a lot more sense. What is a channel weave? Our weave poles at class are pretty much just poles that attach to a flat metal thing that lies on the ground. We have plenty of space outside to work at home, and it's not that cold here yet, I'm definitely not opposed to making something. |
| I think Kristine has a picture here somewhere of her channel weaves. If you search online you can find lots of stuff. Basically, for those doing weaves with real agility (competition) as their goal, there are 4 main methods of teaching. They are channels, weave-o-matic (Old and I don't really know anyone doing this, at least around us), 2x2's and using wires. I used wires and channels with Chewie, and when we went back and did some remedial last year, I did just channels. About 4 years ago I went to a seminar just devoted to weaves - it was a lot of fun. They set up stations, and we got to try all the different methods. We were just getting started, so it was very beneficial and totally worth our time to do it. The outcome we got was that all the methods listed above do work, but it varies from handler to handler on their execution, and on the dog, their physical style and their learning style. There was really no difference in the long run once you had them trained...all lead to good, fast weaves. Mim - I used my full weaves to teach all the entrances - I set up really hard entries out on my lawn course. If it was too hard, I'd soften the angles to where Chewie did it, and was back being confident, then with a couple transitions got the approach jumps moved back to the harder angles. Or sometimes it was a speed issue - the super fast approaches from a series of jumps, vs from a contact obstacle. I think I went overboard though - as then I had him hitting these hard entrances, but missing the easier ones. I'm sure it was all related to his concentration being better and adjusting himself in time. And the toys or treats - I never used any tug or treat until after the entire sequence that I was doing was over. The tug was tucked in a pocket or waistband, and totally out of sight. Hands free - no treats or tugs in them. I found when I did try it, all I got was a hand focused dog who forgot about the agility in front of him...not good.  That was chalked up to a big fail and not to be done. Luckily our instructors are super about letting us do what works with our own dogs...not making us prescribe to any one way to do things. Chewie is a tug fanatic...so if he saw me running with it I would have a disaster. I did do some throwing it, but it rode in the pocket or waistband, and after whatever we had done was complete - while I was also giving my verbal marker "YES!", I was also grabbing the tug out and then using it. Hope that makes sense! |
| Weaves - channels with wires Channel weaves are when you make a space in the middle. The poles still have the same interval between each other, but you offset every other one, making a "channel" down the center. You start out with it really wide, basically like a chute the dog runs through. As they learn, you move them in closer and closer to the midline, until they are all in a row. (Greatly simplified, but that's really it) When you are working alone - the wires are nice because they can't escape. I had some that were fiberglass clip on ones (the white ones) that I bought, and then I made some out of chicken wire. But both worked well. In the beginning it helps to have someone hold onto your dog, and you go down to the far end and call them. That's the very beginning. Then you quickly can transition to you running next to your dog...see below! Some pictures from 2009 when Chewie was learning weaves.  Bre's little brother William doing his weaves!   These are "stick in the ground weaves" - just the poles and they have a pointed part (like a tent stake) on the end and you stick them in the ground however you want. Super cheap way to start out. But - can't use them inside, only where there is dirt or grass.  I have a dozen stick in the grounds, and then a nice set of iron bottom straight weaves (6). So even when I do the 12 Chewie has to do, they are a combo set - 6 fixed, 6 sticks. |
| Thanks guys. I think I'm going to: a) get a much longer tugger b) continue leaving it at the end of the weaves as I've tried hiding the smaller tugger I've got but Tiggy knows I've got it and gets more intent on watching me so she doesn't miss me getting it out |
Oh wow! That looks like it would work great  I wonder why on earth our class doesn't use channel weaves. |
snazzierella wrote: Oh wow! That looks like it would work great I wonder why on earth our class doesn't use channel weaves.Ask. |
Our trainer uses channel weaves and they work great. I have a set of stick in the ground poles for my yard that a neighbor gave me that trains at the same place. I haven't used them at home yet because Teddy is doing great in class and I don't want to start any bad habits at home since I don't know enough of what I'm doing myself!  Cindy |
4 my OES wrote: Our trainer uses channel weaves and they work great. I have a set of stick in the ground poles for my yard that a neighbor gave me that trains at the same place. I haven't used them at home yet because Teddy is doing great in class and I don't want to start any bad habits at home since I don't know enough of what I'm doing myself! Cindy That's funny, Cindy.I would ask your instructors to give you some skills to practice, and get them in the ground. Weaves are the skill that (for most dogs) requires the most out of class practice time. |
got sheep wrote: 4 my OES wrote: Our trainer uses channel weaves and they work great. I have a set of stick in the ground poles for my yard that a neighbor gave me that trains at the same place. I haven't used them at home yet because Teddy is doing great in class and I don't want to start any bad habits at home since I don't know enough of what I'm doing myself! Cindy That's funny, Cindy.I would ask your instructors to give you some skills to practice, and get them in the ground. Weaves are the skill that (for most dogs) requires the most out of class practice time. Tell me about it...and then your dog starts to slide backwards... Tomorrow, I'm going to slide the poles so there's a little channel and see if we have any luck that way. |
| Pam - any time you get backsliding - and all dogs go through this in the weaves, it's the hardest obstacle - you do exactly as you're proposing and make it easier to build the dog's confidence back up until they remember that they really do know how to do this. Did you enter Hounds? KB |
Mad Dog wrote: Pam - any time you get backsliding - and all dogs go through this in the weaves, it's the hardest obstacle - you do exactly as you're proposing and make it easier to build the dog's confidence back up until they remember that they really do know how to do this. Did you enter Hounds? KB Yeah just like we have.  Our instructor suggested going back to just entries with two poles and it does seem to have helped. Although Tiggy still doesnt like to turn across in front of me for an acute entry. She's tripped me up in the past, so now I'm working on sending her on ahead a bit more. I tried putting the tugger out in front of the weaves today and left the treats in a dish over on the fence. That seemed to help with her not watching my hand and she was driving ahead much better. (She can't watch my hand, the tugger and the fence all at the same time). The draw back is if she misses the entry she can still get the tugger but she seemed to work out that if I didn't tug and she didn't get a treat then something wasn't right. We didn't have class this week due to a public holiday but next Monday I'll talk it over with our instructor again. |
| Mim, As someone who trains alone much of the time, I have found the training tool "Manners Minder" worth its weight in gold. It is a remote control treat dispenser. You can set it out past the exit of the weaves and since that is where the treat will be delivered, that is where your dog's focus will be and not on you or your hands. They are sold on the Clean Run website www.cleanrun.com and yes, they are pricey but for certain things worth every penny. An inexpensive alternative is to teach your dog to touch one of those inexpensive cat toys where there is a small fuzzy ball on top of a spring about 1 ft. high on a solid base. When they touch it, they are rewarded with a treat. Once you have taught the dog to go to the toy for a treat you can ask for them to go out longer distances to reach the toy. They will learn to go on command to the cat toy. If you always run up quickly and reward AT the cat toy, the dog will learn to wait there for you and not run back to you. You'll have to teach all this first and have it solid BEFORE you add it to the weaves, but it's worth taking the time, especially if you train alone quite a bit. After you have taught the game of running to the cat toy and touching in and waiting for a rewards, you can put then the cat toy out a few feet past the exit of the weaves and the dog will drive forward through the weaves (once they have been taught to weave correctly, of course) to touch the toy. I have the Susan Garrett 2 x 2 CD and I like it a lot. I used it on one of the dogs and their entries are by far the strongest - they don't have difficulty with acute angles, etc. I stayed with 2 poles, then 4, for probably longer than I should have. And I did not completely finish doing Susan Garrett's 2 x 2 plan completely. If I had it to do again, I would follow her plan EXACTLY as I think it would have had even better results. I'll add a general comment - If things are not going well in any part of training, I always take a step back to where the dogs were very comfortable & having a consistently successful performance and rework that for a while, then slowly move forward again. There is also a great article on "How to Tug" which you would think would be easy but it turns out can be done better with a few hints on technique and picking the right tug. I found the article on Denise Fenzi's blog, which I think you should be able to google. If not, let me know and I will find a copy & get it to you. Hope my long-winded thoughts are not more than you wanted. I know how difficult it is to train mostly by yourself without someone to assist once in a while. Linda Zimmerman |
| Thanks Linda, I'll have to look all those recommendations up. |
| Linda, I found the Playing tug with a strong dog video of Denise Fenzi's. Present the tug horizontally! That never occurred to me, doh.  |
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