Loosing social skills
I have been taking him in the tennis courts at the park because he started to run off out the gates for no reason! I think its because theres so many smells on the park Bloos brain just leaves his head.  So hes being kept in the courts because he still needs to stretch his legs, and im using the opportubity to practise his recall. This morning i took Bloo into the courts to play. He was playing nicely and was ignoring the other dogs until mark came up to the gates with his 3 labradors. All his labs are female and un neutered so Bloo was going crazy. Then he comes into the courts with his dogs! Bloo wouldnt leave them alone he was mounting them all, being boistrous and really dominant. I felt so guilty and embarrased. Bloo is so big and heavy. He mounts and jumps all over female dogs but with other male dogs he backs down most the time. There have been occasions its turned into a fight for dominance... So, i know lots of people on the forum own unneutered male sheepies as they show them etc... how do you deal with your male? Do you let it run off lead? I know in the US you have dog parks that are enclosed though. Problem is Bloo isnt socialising with other dogs because he is in the tennis courts away from them all. If i dont ever let him play/socilaise with other dogs he will become aggressive and loose his socilaising, but he keeps running off, and i cannot risk loosing him on the roads. Problem is Bloo walks around with his nose constantly on the floor sniffing, i cant lift his head up, hes after the girlie dogs. Before when i used to let him off lead on the field he started to pin down dogs and wouldnt let them up, which is another reason hes now in the courts. Everyone doesnt talk to us anymore on the park because i dont let him out onto the field, and everyone tnks its wrong that im not neutering Bloo. I dont know why i should feel bad and guilty when they say this because hes my dog and its my decision what i do with him. If they dont like my decisions tough. I cant keep him away from dogs forever. Are all your unneuterd dogs the same? I know Bloo is a "teenager" and people keep telling me he will grow out of it, but im findiong that hard to believe. Need advice fast  |
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I don't think you are alone. But I don't think most dog parks allow intact males. (Puppies and intact males.) Because of what you are describing. I think what you might have to do until he is neutered or stops his naughty behaviour is find a buddy that he gets along with and let them play. Just the price he will have to pay for keeping his goods  Perhaps ask the guy with the 3 labs if you guys can walk together as a group. Honestly free play isn't all it is cracked up to if you ask me. I think it can be stressful for all, at times. The best parks I take Langley to is the ones you get to walk trails. There is a purpose they all walk sometime together or just pass by. Langley loves other dogs and even on trails he just keeps to the walk with quick meetings. It is really cute. I stopped at the free for all play area and it was stressful. I also pay for a dog park closer to home all dogs a screened which I love. You might wonder poor Laika why isn't she partaking. Laika doesn't care to play with other dogs other than Langley. She enjoys a nice brisk walk on leash. I tried taking her to social classes she just laid down and watch the dogs. So why put her in that situation. Anyways I went off topic  Try walks with other dogs on leash; great training to leave them (but be with them) and you are showing who is boss because you are in control. |
| No. Absolutely not normal. You should probably talk to Dawn who has two intact males, but she and the boys stayed with me in September during the national, and even though one of my girlies was in season, her boys were perfectly well behaved. It's not even a matter of socialization, though they've both had that, it's called training. I suspect part of the reason he is so awful is that he's an only dog who was raised with few boundaries (my first OES was raised this way ) But then again she was a she, and even though intact until she was 3 or 4, hormones were not an issue - a fundamentally unsound temperament was. You don't lose "socialization" skills when it comes to knowing how to behave with other dogs. They are set early, very early in life, much of it done by the time they are 12, maybe 16 weeks old, and most of them learned from littermates, which is why I feel breeders should keep puppies as long as possible. I had one of my one year old puppy bitches at an OES rescue fundraiser a couple of weekends ago. The facility has a huge, fenced yard and a bunch of the dogs were running around together. Being a predominantly rescue gathering, you better believe the majority of the males there are castrated <g> One of them still followed her around, constantly trying to mount her. She's too young to know she can tell him off, so she just sort of stood there, or sat down to avoid him (to his owner's credit, he tried to get his dog to mind, but he was obsessed, and, no, she was not in season, though she is intact. Her mother had been in season so perhaps some of her scent lingered) Nothing. I brought Sybil out later. Dog decided to hump her. Sybil gave him The Look (this is why I adore alpha bitches) and he got the message and slunk off  And she's spayed now and has been since late last year. Humping isn't always what you think it is and is by no means limited to intact animals. Anyway, I suspect in Bloos case, what happens is this: he really, really wants to play with the other dogs because he has no one else at home. But he doesn't know how (the pinning other dogs down and jumping the three labs tells you that) He's a bully with no boundaries. In an ideal world you'd have a good friend with a rock solid no nonsense bitch of any breed, but closer to him in size, who one on one, would convince him that if he doesn't behave she WILL rip his face off, without actually ripping his face off. Failing that, all he has is you. And though I am a mostly positive trainer etc etc, if one of my dogs ran around mounting other people's dogs, or god forbid, pinning them down, the first thing that would happen would be a come to jesus moment with me that left them in no doubt that if they ever did that again I would kill them with my bare hands. You don't need to physically harm the dog to do this - I would never advocate that. But snatch him off the other dog, grab him by his scruff, one hand on either side, and get in his face with a deep, furious voice that leaves him in NO DOUBT who the REAL BOSS is, and it ain't him. Frankly, at this point I don't know that this would have the least bit of impact on him. And I wouldn't even contemplate it if you thought for a nano-second he might bite you. Consider this: I train with intact dogs and I have intact bitches. We still train when my girls are in season. Any intact male is expected to keep their mind and everything else off my girls and keep working. I've left Sybil in a down stay about 10 feet from an adorable intact Aussie while she was in season. And, yes, poor boy whined a little, but he kept his mind on his job when working and wouldn't dream of breaking his stay. Hormones or not (though that type of situation shows you what is possible) it is 100 % a training issue. Mind you - my dogs are far from perfect. Just this morning Sybil wouldn't come in when called and I had to go out and get her (she's in a fenced yard, but that's not the point) My point is these things are training issues, not socialization issues, Here's a thought - and I know you're working very hard with him, that you've made progress, and that his age (intact or not) is a challenging one: make training your number one priority. if you don't have access to a large enough fenced in area where you can safely blow off some steam by tossing a ball for him or something like that < will he fetch?> and need to continue to use the tennis courts, try to go when there are no other dogs around. Let him run but dragging a 20 feet lead (he'll get used to it) If/when another dog comes, ideally before he even sees the dog, you call him or grab him and with a hand on that lead, now would be the time to practice sit and down stays. Stay close to him in the beginning. If he breaks or even moves, correct him (with a "no" and by replacing him) Praise him - not over the top so he breaks - when he DOES stay. Increase the duration. You are working on impulse control and imprinting on him that he MUST do as you say. Take it as a challenge, make it a point of pride: you WILL show these people that he is not a bad dog and he is not unmanagable. It can be done. Honest. But it takes a lot of consistent, persistent work. And you have to outstubborn him. I think you can do it. Kristine |
| " a rock solid no nonsense bitch of any breed, but closer to him in size, who one on one, would convince him that if he doesn't behave she WILL rip his face off, without actually ripping his face off." He should come hang with Laika. That is her. I think she is "mostly" the one that made Langley into the dog he is today. I never ever ever have to worry about him getting out of line. Thanks to her. He never pulled anything with other dogs and he was still intact when he was Bloo's age if I remember correctly. He never acted like that when he was intact. So Kristine is correct he needs a "bitch" buddy. As well as lots of walks with other dogs. Then play. You could start a walking group. That has been very helpful for me. Example of Laika being bossy. Last night Langley tried counter surfing and I yelled out stop. She ran up and slapped him on the head with her paw was so funny. When she tries it, he bounces up and down like a goof and comes running to me. I agree; you show them! Keep at it you can do it. |
Thankyou  I really appreciate your comments. Bloos not agresive towards others when he pins them down etc.. i think it is dominance and he needs to be put into his place yes. He has a friend whos a female retreiverdoodle called Cassie, they are the same size height wise but Bloo is heavier and broader. They romp and chase, but even with a dog the same size Bloo takes the avantage. Cassie will sometimes yep/growl/snap at him when he gets rough but Bloo doesnt listen, that is wh step in and pull him away. I have before shouted NO in his face but everyone was watching and i got really embarrased, i suppose i need to pretend noones watching and just tell him right? Even though Cassie is a neutered female he still humps her! Which is proof its more of a dominance thing with him. Yes bloo is the only dog in the house (He has a cat friend) thats all. So i suppose he will be excited when we are out and there are more of his own kind to run around with. I always keep Bloo away from the female dogs i know arent neutered like marks 3 labs today because he completely goes mad. At agility last week he was doing fab until this unspayed female came into our sid and wee weed evrywhere...then bloo started to run round like a mad dog! He cant control himself. My trainer tells him off but he just barks at her and runs off even more. I agree he is getting a handful, i am aware hes naughty. It really upsets me when he plays up He is the best dog you could imagine at home but when we take him out he turns into a monster. People only see him when he is bad which gives them the wrong impressions. I dread to think what they think of me. It really upsets me, sometimes i cant sleep because i get so anxious about what people think of me. I even ask people on the park they just snarl at me and walk off or laugh. Its not nice when people get all snobby at you because your dogs not behaving I know im not a terrible owner im trying my best without physically hitting Bloo (no way would i hit him). OK I will keep working on it, ill give bloo firm dicipline when hes bad and good things when hes good. It kills me to shout at him but i has to be done, i take your word for it Ill show them people how its done! Bloo is trainable Thanks everyone xxxxx |
| OH Sam I am so sorry. I know it can be hard when people are uncaring. Easy for me to say "who cares?" just ignore them. I would get upset as well. But they aren't your friends obviously. So try not to care. Don't forget Bloo is your buddy and that is what matters most. I don't think you have to yell at him either. Has anyone else read Tamar Geller's books. I like some of her ideas. One thing which really surprised me was to just stand there calmly and sigh and hem and ha. I did it and wow it worked! Try not to let those people get to you and ignore them! It is about you and your dog and you are really trying. It has taken me YEARS to even come close to understanding what to do with my dogs; I still have tons of troubles and what ifs... So I say you as a young lady you are doing wonderfully, my trainer told me this is a stubborn breed. Those people with easily trained Golden's just don't understand JOKE everyone! |
^^^^^ Everything Mad Dog said above^^^^^  Nelson was intact until about a year ago when I discovered a lump in one testicle (seminoma) while grooming. He NEVER displayed such dominant behavior. He would have received exactly the same "come to Jesus" experience that Kristine described as well. There is really no need to scream at your dog when doing this. Sometimes just a low, stern voice works as well as getting loud and embarrassingly obvious to others around you. This combined with a good handful of neck scruff or chin hair gets the point across very well. You're not trying to cause harm, just make it very clear that this behavior is not appropriate under any circumstances. |
| I have a similar thing-where I live it is road walks as I can't lift Sprocket over the wired up stiles on most footpaths so we have one field with a bridle path round it which we use-suppost to be for horses but we have lived here 24 years and know the farmers well. Two new families have moved into 2 new,big houses,they have no idea of country life. If we should see them on our walkies with their untrained dogs I get told in no uncertain terms to keep my scruffy (takes me ages to groom) animal away from them. He is an inquisitive pup,well was,and just wanted to run with their dogs(who were all over the crop).We don't get to meet any other walkers with dogs that are friendly-it's such a shame. I felt so upset after they had a go at me,made me feel I hadn't been training Sprox-he did come back. They couldn't control their dogs but expected me to keep mine away from their "little girls".They weren't pups,just spoilt.x |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: ^^^^^ Everything Mad Dog said above^^^^^ Nelson was intact until about a year ago when I discovered a lump in one testicle (seminoma) while grooming. He NEVER displayed such dominant behavior. He would have received exactly the same "come to Jesus" experience that Kristine described as well. There is really no need to scream at your dog when doing this. Sometimes just a low, stern voice works as well as getting loud and embarrassingly obvious to others around you. This combined with a good handful of neck scruff or chin hair gets the point across very well. You're not trying to cause harm, just make it very clear that this behavior is not appropriate under any circumstances. Gotta love that chin hair for the "come to Jesus" moments. Comes in very handy. |
| This may get long..... My input is going to be pretty much like mentioned. Bloo is your 1st dog,and with each dog we become better humans. I bet you already have a list going that says "with my next dog I will do this..." or "will NOT do this..."He is getting away with stuff...plain and simple. Saying 'he sniffs around girls and he won't stop' means he is choosing to sniff (dog nature), but YOU are not being effective in having him stop it. He is doing as he pleases and you aren't able to stop him. My boys all would love to do that and be royal pests, but they know when I say not to, it means not to. I am not mean, but I am the boss. My dogs love me; but just as importantly, they respect me. Commands are just that - a command. Not mean, not angry...not asking either. So if you give a command, be prepared and able to enforce it. If he's off lead, make sure it's in a spot where you can still follow up. This may mean a smaller area, or with a lead or long line attached. About the feeling embarrassed - try not to be. It does neither of you any favors to let him get by with crap just because someone else is there. But your way of doing it needs to be timely and effective. No yelling, no screaming like a fish wife... Actually most of it should come with body language. Dogs don't "talk" verbally, but they sure get their message through by what their posture and position is. Your timing and quick interventions, with the intent to immediately stop the behavior is what will work. Then when he gets it, you go on as if it never happened. No anger, no residual emotions at him. Do keep watching however, and be ready to intervene - he may think your intervention was a fluke and will try again to see if you meant it, or are going to be too lazy to keep after him. Stubborn dogs....I would keep up with the tennis area - it seems a space that you should be able to work with him. Maybe the guy with the labs would help you? Let one of his dogs in, and then work with Bloo about leaving them alone. Also, have him come to you, but then let him RETURN to play again...several times. If he learns 'come' means "end of fun" all the time, guess what will happen?? He will never want to come...why would he? By calling him, playing it up, and then letting him go back to play he will eventually figure out that coming isn't that bad. This won't come fast if he has been called in, then leash snapped on and been dragged away all the time... So - I would try something like this for the coming or leaving distractions: Start at home (in your little yard or in the house) - call him to you (enforce it - he must actually come). Then love him up, have a party! Then let him go back to what he was doing. Repeat, repeat. Do this until he happily comes to you almost 100%.(and still enforcing it -you gave the command, he will do it - and when he comes, you still praise just like it was his idea and did it on his own) Then graduate to some distraction - maybe if someone is walking by, and he's really interested or something similar. Do the same, keep at it over time until he comes happily, nearly all the time. If he is slow or ignores you, that is your sign you need to be more "fun" or interesting. You need to be better than what he is checking out. And by this time, he should also be 1) realizing it's not optional, so why not come in the 1st place, because he now knows you will come MAKE him come and 2) learning that it's better to come when you call him, so he can then be released back to play again. I also "cheer" any motion in my direction, but use my negative "uh-uh" for even looking like he's going to go away. (and this "uh-uh" is already a learned behavior too - it means not to do something - sniffing, eating my food, running away, etc. This was trained the same way, by me following through every single time it came out of my mouth). Then when he's ready, go to the tennis court and try it out with another dog. Also - if you have any doubt how he's going to react when you make him come (mine usually get scruffed, chinned, etc)...do NOT put yourself in danger. You suddenly enforcing your commands may not make him that happy - I've never met Bloo and I don't know his temperament. If in doubt, have a long line, leash or something trailing along that you can grab. I use the "uh-uh" as a behavior stopper...if they even look like they are going to be a pest, bark their heads off when playing or herding another dog to the point of insanity...they get the "uh-uh' as a warning. And by now, they KNOW I will follow through, so that's all it takes. Of course big praise every single time - never take a good behavior for granted And when you can do that, it looks as impressive as he$% when you are out in public and you stop your dog with a nice calm "uh-uh" |
| Thanks Dawn! Hes not aggressive but i do worry sometimes as he can become extremely dominant over dogs. I dont really want to put him with marks 3 labs again because since then bloos been very hormonal and strange. They are all intact females n bloo is intact male finding his feet in the ....game... he gets really boutrous and as much as i try to pull him away hes so strong At agility hes started to run off to other dogs and will straight away bounce them. If i go over to him he runs off as he thinks im chasing him, so my trainer advised me to run the other way...thats fine but he doesnt care if ive gone he doesnt even notice, then i feel guilty leaving the other owner struggling as bloos bouncing their dog. Its just the being around other dogs i need to sort out. I know he will mount any female as hes a young intact male n his testostrones sky high, but i agree he needs to calm down. Its hard to teach him to be good around other dogs because im not a dog. I will keep proceeding forwards n will keep you updated on our progress. Yes dawn im thinking of things ive done with bloo i shouldnt. Bloos my first dog, so im learning too. Once ive learnt to deal with situations ill be fine hopefully I have faith in myself. I can do this. Thanks for all the help, its really made me determined.I still think they need condoms for dogs  That way i wouldnt have to worry as much about bloo mounting females because he wouldnt be able to do it lol x |
| At my agility class, the dogs are kept separate. When you're not on the equipment, you have your dog on a leash, and there is a gate separating you and your dog from the training area. Everyone goes one at a time. This is important for Bailey right now, she's reacting badly with other dogs still. I think you need to work on all the things that everyone has said. You've said before that Bloo isn't food motivated right? Maybe when you're teaching come, reward him with love and playtime, so come is a fun thing for him to do. I also think you need to work with him on a leash more before moving on to off lead stuff, he needs to listen well on lead if you're going to expect him to listen off lead. Maybe work on those obedience basics out at the tennis court, so there are some distractions around, or work with him on lead at your dog parks so you can get him to ignore the other dogs and make him focus on you. Bailey does well off lead, but Eevee is nowhere near being ready for that. Me and her have a LOT of work to do. |
| Being "hormonal" and being "dominant" are two totally different things. Don't confuse the two. If the girls that Bloo is around are not in season, it's likely that he's trying to establish his place in doggie society, which he will do with dogs of either sex. Now, I don't have much experience with intact females but plenty of intact males. None have ever bothered a bitch with the intentions of mating unless the girls were in season. Then they just got a glazed look in their eyes....which quickly disappeared when they remembered what would happen if they acted on those feelings of desire...  |
| Hi Sam, sorry you are struggling with Bloo. I got a feeling Cassie did with Ru a while back. You are doing a really good job. x |
| Control him on the lead and socialise him on the lead, that way you can control him. He is a sheep dog - his nature is to round up other animals - even dogs so if he is off the lead he will attempt to do what he thinks/feels he should be doing, he is a dog too and will do doggy things. You need to get him with other OES to assess if he really is a problem, being of the same breed brings a totally different dynamic to being with other dogs. IF he is off the lead in the tennis court and others decide to come in, you probably should get him back on the lead before he gets excited and away from you. I know lot's of people with dogs (M&F) who simply can't trust their dogs off the lead (a lot will scarper) and others who always have their dogs off the lead who really shouldn't! it's a balance, if you can't trust him yet off the lead around other dogs/people then keep him on it. He is a male and therefore still a daft puppy not necessarily a bully. |
Sam my husband says he is still a baby. You watch he will suddenly turn 2 and be really sensible....or maybe thats 12 cant really remember....  |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Being "hormonal" and being "dominant" are two totally different things. Don't confuse the two. Then they just got a glazed look in their eyes....which quickly disappeared when they remembered what would happen if they acted on those feelings of desire... I love this description! The bottom line is he has to know that the sound of your voice is the ultimate thing he is to listen to. I just walked 2 dogs on a coupler into the vet's for breeding & all I had to do was tell the male was "let her alone". It starts when they are young. Just like little children....if you don't expose them to different situations how in the world are they ever supposed to learn what is acceptable behavior? You can't expect them to know how to behave & eat dinner at the Ritz if you only ever take them to a McDonalds with a Playland! Be consistant in your training. Don't miss a beat. And as others have said, praise big time, EVERY time they do as you ask. Their ultimate reward is knowing they have pleased you. Most girls will not stand for any nonsense unless they are ready to breed. And don't let any other people convince you that neutering him will change all this behavior or make him easier to train. Believe me, when a bitch is in season, the neutered boys STILL think it is their time to shine. And it doesn't lessen dominant behavior any of the other times either. Training, training training. It never ends. Keep at it. |
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