Are Old English Sheepdogs facing extinction?
So, is our breed facing extinction? |
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| I find that hard to believe. The BYB's in Michigan are having litters left and right. |
| The numbers are low worldwide.... in Canada for example we've had several reputable long time breeders retire in the last few years with a few more in the process of doing so and there weren't that many to begin with. I believe Canada and Australia have fairly equal numbers, I don't know exactly but I believe in Canada last year the total was around 140? Does anyone have last years U.S numbers? |
shaggydogs3 wrote: I find that hard to believe. The BYB's in Michigan are having litters left and right. Non registered pups aren't included in the figures... one thing to keep in mind also is non registered pups cannot be considered purebred, and rarely even come close to the standard so no longer look and behave as we expect and want our beloved breed to. |
| This was on UK tele this morning, about 300 sheepie pups registered against thousands of Labrador pups. They had a man on who has 3 sheepies and shows them, cant remember his name, and a lovely sheepie called Breeze. He said they are good dogs to have but require hours of grooming. Not helpful if they are clipped they are really easy to look after. I didnt think he did the breed any favours. |
| Honestly, if people want to keep an oes in full coat, it doesn't have to require hours and hours of grooming, or daily grooming etc like so many say. If people stick to a routine, for me an hour to an hour and a half of grooming once a week (per dog), it's fine. Problem is so many don't know they must line groom, to the skin, head to toe, every time. Doing a little here and there, or taking a brush comb or slicker and just going over the dog even every day, does not get everything and leads to matting and frustration, as well as a broken, straggly coat. Obviously getting a dog ready for a show involves considerably more time and effort but that's not what most people need to do. |
 In 1998 The Norwegian Kennel Club had about 500 OES'es in their register.Ten years later in 2008 only 133 - I think our breed could need more publicity.  |
I can honestly say in the years we have kept oes....about 11 years....we saw one once in our local park (a visitor to the area) one old one at a car boot sale, one near to my sister and one used to live near my dentist. Havent seen one in Northampton now for ages, apart from Summer, no wonder she causes such a stir when she goes out!  |
| Well why would anyone breed them? You ask a general question about breeding on this forum and people jump down your throat. A breeder has more than one litter in a year and, despite doing all the right health testing and socialization, is deemed a 'volume breeder' and bullied. The breeder community is not very supportive of each other, which does not encourage anyone who might want to get into breeding. So when the older matriarchs die out we will be left with the puppy mills. But those matriarchs (and the few patriarchs that are out there) will go to the grave smug in their feeling that they were the only good breeders out there instead of mentoring newer folks or believing that anyone other than them can possibly be a good breeder. I hope that they realize that they will be contributing to the extinction of the breed. Makes me sad. And it makes me angry. |
| Having just done the whole puppy search thing I can tell you that it is harder to find an OES breeder than most dog breeds out there. Finding a breeder who has plans to breed in the next year then staying on a waiting list crossing my fingers that there will be a puppy for me. Sigh... It was worth it! As for the care of the coat; I spend time grooming but when I lived with a golden retriever I put almost as much time into cleaning up the gobs of hair from everything that I owned and changing the air filters on the furnace. My sheepie adores grooming time, I over did it when he was a baby and now when I pull out the grooming stuff he lays down and falls asleep. I'd say it's a plus, more time to spend together. That is the first question people ask when they meet him; how much does he shed? Do you spend your whole life brushing him? |
| I would like to say its a bit false statement in the UK. A lot of good breeders don't use the UK kennel club any more as its a flawed system. Because they don't have checks on litters & so on its a waste of money also I agree with Kim as well. Look what happened to Amber who did do the right thing but we are not looking at Russia and the old eastern block also Japan but rather suppried that more people on this site don't start breeding or even just having one litter. |
| I just did the puppy search in Canada as well. It was difficult. There are absolutely no registered breeders anywhere east of Quebec and only one in Quebec. I do not remember having seen one in Nova Scotia for eons (although I know there is another owner here on the board). I had to have mine flown here from Alberta. It was worth it as I have wanted one for over 30 years! Most of the breeders I have spoken with will only sell on a nonbreeding contract (not a problem for me) but that could be why you don't see owners having just one litter. |
Mady wrote: Well why would anyone breed them? You ask a general question about breeding on this forum and people jump down your throat. A breeder has more than one litter in a year and, despite doing all the right health testing and socialization, is deemed a 'volume breeder' and bullied. The breeder community is not very supportive of each other, which does not encourage anyone who might want to get into breeding. So when the older matriarchs die out we will be left with the puppy mills. But those matriarchs (and the few patriarchs that are out there) will go to the grave smug in their feeling that they were the only good breeders out there instead of mentoring newer folks or believing that anyone other than them can possibly be a good breeder. I hope that they realize that they will be contributing to the extinction of the breed. Makes me sad. And it makes me angry. I agree completely. |
charliesmom wrote: I just did the puppy search in Canada as well. It was difficult. There are absolutely no registered breeders anywhere east of Quebec and only one in Quebec. I do not remember having seen one in Nova Scotia for eons (although I know there is another owner here on the board). I had to have mine flown here from Alberta. It was worth it as I have wanted one for over 30 years! Most of the breeders I have spoken with will only sell on a nonbreeding contract (not a problem for me) but that could be why you don't see owners having just one litter. We sell them on a non breeding contract because we want to protect the breed. Someone with the intent of just having one litter doesn't have the level of commitment they need to breed quality oes. It involves so much more than just putting a couple of dogs together and people just do not seem to get that. Pedigree and health research, testing, training, showing, grooming, not to mention learning the huge amounts of information about vaccines, raising a healthy litter, gestation and whelping, finding the right homes etc.... it's not something anyone should just jump into. I DO want to see new people become more involved, but we want to see people passionate enough to really get involved, people who want to learn and are willing to do the work to do so. I had a few long time breed mentors for about ten years before I had my first litter. I don't breed often, but I don't think it's wrong for good breeders who produce quality, healthy puppies to have a few litters a year if they have the time and money to do so properly and be able to stand behind each of those pups and their new owners etc. |
Willowsprite wrote: Honestly, if people want to keep an oes in full coat, it doesn't have to require hours and hours of grooming, or daily grooming etc like so many say. If people stick to a routine, for me an hour to an hour and a half of grooming once a week (per dog), it's fine. Problem is so many don't know they must line groom, to the skin, head to toe, every time. So true Stacey. People are always surprised when they ask me how long it takes me to groom my dog and I tell them "an hour once a week" especially as I mention that is the length of one tv show and that I often do it while watching television. AND I usually mention that I line groom. As a third time OES owner, this is the first time I line groomed and wow what a difference it made in ease and how much the dog loves it. Thank goodness for this forum and the people on it for teaching me grooming. |
Willowsprite wrote: Someone with the intent of just having one litter doesn't have the level of commitment they need to breed quality oes. It involves so much more than just putting a couple of dogs together and people just do not seem to get that. Pedigree and health research, testing, training, showing, grooming, not to mention learning the huge amounts of information about vaccines, raising a healthy litter, gestation and whelping, finding the right homes etc.... it's not something anyone should just jump into. I DO want to see new people become more involved, but we want to see people passionate enough to really get involved, people who want to learn and are willing to do the work to do so. Well said Stacey. It is not just the quantity of the breed but the quality of the breed as well. Along with World Peace perhaps we can wish for people to put aside their own agendas and put the betterment of the breed first. I vote for more mentors! |
| I hope to get into breeding someday in the future, I don't want to see my favorite dog breed die out. |
| I think that responsible people owning OES and having them out being good ambassadors for the breed is a great place to start. When people meet my dog many will have a story of an aggressive OES, a destructive OES or a dog who had to be shaved down because they were all mats. I feel like these a not the issues of the breed per say but issues of irresponsible people. I must say I would also love to get involved in preserving the breed, maybe one day when I have the experience and the resources I would be interested in getting involved with showing and perhaps eventually breeding. I would like to be living outside of the city with room to do so responsibly and would have to do some convincing of my husband. The really arent any breeders in my area; there is one three hours from here but I am pretty sure its a byb as they arent registered and there is no contact information anywhere for them (people have just told me there is a breeder that lives on a farm near Brandon). Sheepies are by far my favorite dog, not only are they one of the best looking dog breeds but they are one of the rare breeds that actually gets cuter the older they get. Also every one I have ever met has been fantastic with children, people centred and pretty happy go lucky. Has anybody watched breeder of the pack? I am waiting for a sheepie episode! Also the Dulux dog commercials have started in Canada in the last year (not a common commercial but it is on during hockey a lot... When we have hockey). |
| The old English sheepdog has been put on a watchlist of endangered dogs over fears it could face extinction. The breed, used in advertisements for Dulux paint for more than 50 years, had just 316 of its puppies registered this year, the Kennel Club said. The Pembroke Welsh corgi, which is favoured by the Queen, the soft-coated wheaten terrier and the Welsh terrier are also on the "At Watch" list for breeds with only 301 and 450 puppies confirmed. The Kennel Club said it hoped to highlight the plight of old English sheepdogs before they get to vulnerable levels of less than 300 puppies. Bill Lambert, manager of the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme, said: "The decline of the old English sheepdog....can be partly explained by lifestyle changes as it needs a lot of grooming and exercise and so is not suitable for the fast paced urban lifestyles of many people. "But it is also a lot to do with fashion. Despite the fact that old English sheepdogs have good temperaments and can make fantastic family pets their popularity is being eclipsed by more fashionable foreign breeds that can be much harder to train and care for. "Of particular concern is the growth in popularity of the Siberian husky, a beautiful dog which is notoriously wilful and generally unsuitable for urban life." There are currently 30 vulnerable breeds as well as the four dog types on the At Watch list, the Kennel Club said. The foxhound had no registrations so far this year and the cesky terrier had just 25, making those breeds the the most vulnerable, it added. The biggest declines were seen in the clumber spaniel breed, which fell by 37% to just 114 registrations. Some native vulnerable breeds fared well, with the Norwich terrier seeing more than 200 new puppies - a 96% increase on the same period last year. Kennel Club Secretary Caroline Kisko said: "The reason the majority of dogs end up in rescue is because people haven't researched their breed before they buy. "People often go for the most obvious or fashionable dog choice, which isn't necessarily the right one for them." Outside of the vulnerable breeds, so called "handbag" dogs such as the pug and Chihuahua continue to thrive, the Kennel Club said. Some 2,669 Chihuahuas were registered this year along with 5,496 pugs, which have seen a 615% increase in the last decade. Meanwhile, 28,787 Labrador retrievers, the UK's most popular dog breed, were registered in the first three quarters of 2012. People will be encouraged to choose the right type of dog breed for their lifestyle at The Kennel Club's Discover Dogs event at Earls Court, central London, on November 10 and 11. |
| The following figures are the registered OES puppies for Australia for the 2000's: 2001 - 143 2002 - 153 2003 - 138 2004 - 151 2005 - 77 2006 - 72 2007 - 101 2008 - 71 2010 - 118 2011 - 92 At present demand outstrips numbers on the ground. This has been brought about by factors beyond our control, i.e. taildocking ban, breeders getting older, breeders (not wanting tails) changing to smaller, less intensive work breeds. In my State, Victoria, numbers shown each weekend could vary between 1-7. Most puppies are bought by people who are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. OES in preference to new people. If we don't change this protocol we will have no young people entering the breed or exhibiting. On the upside, we do not have a welfare problem. So Mim, are you ready to start showing late next year????????????? Tiggy's cranky Granny. |
Lorraine CossartWalsh wrote: The following figures are the registered OES puppies for Australia for the 2000's: 2001 - 143 2002 - 153 2003 - 138 2004 - 151 2005 - 77 2006 - 72 2007 - 101 2008 - 71 2010 - 118 2011 - 92 At present demand outstrips numbers on the ground. This has been brought about by factors beyond our control, i.e. taildocking ban, breeders getting older, breeders (not wanting tails) changing to smaller, less intensive work breeds. In my State, Victoria, numbers shown each weekend could vary between 1-7. Most puppies are bought by people who are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. OES in preference to new people. If we don't change this protocol we will have no young people entering the breed or exhibiting. On the upside, we do not have a welfare problem. So Mim, are you ready to start showing late next year????????????? Tiggy's cranky Granny. Hey it was not me who called you cranky!!  I will let the accused defend herself.  Who would I be showing??? |
| This in in the UK but I would think it happens in other countries 1. Breeders are not registering their puppies with the KC (Flawed system) 2. Judges cheating within the dog showing community 3. Issues within the breeding community (What happened to Amber) 4. Puppy Farms 5. Being called a puppy farmer if you breed to many pups ( Even that they are from decent stock) This is just a few points & I could make a list as long as my arm & I think most of you could as well. Reading most of your post I think the main issues is time with most people also a lot of dogs and bitches have been done as well (Spayed or bit chopped off) Sad part to most of this section is tied up with the rescue part. I would say most people who have oesd look after them but 10% of owners don't and 30 to 40% get there dogs from (mill/farms) & that is a main factor. |
Willowsprite wrote: charliesmom wrote: I just did the puppy search in Canada as well. It was difficult. There are absolutely no registered breeders anywhere east of Quebec and only one in Quebec. I do not remember having seen one in Nova Scotia for eons (although I know there is another owner here on the board). I had to have mine flown here from Alberta. It was worth it as I have wanted one for over 30 years! Most of the breeders I have spoken with will only sell on a nonbreeding contract (not a problem for me) but that could be why you don't see owners having just one litter. We sell them on a non breeding contract because we want to protect the breed. Someone with the intent of just having one litter doesn't have the level of commitment they need to breed quality oes. It involves so much more than just putting a couple of dogs together and people just do not seem to get that. Pedigree and health research, testing, training, showing, grooming, not to mention learning the huge amounts of information about vaccines, raising a healthy litter, gestation and whelping, finding the right homes etc.... it's not something anyone should just jump into. I DO want to see new people become more involved, but we want to see people passionate enough to really get involved, people who want to learn and are willing to do the work to do so. I had a few long time breed mentors for about ten years before I had my first litter. I don't breed often, but I don't think it's wrong for good breeders who produce quality, healthy puppies to have a few litters a year if they have the time and money to do so properly and be able to stand behind each of those pups and their new owners etc. I just wanted to respond because I completely understand the reason for the nonbreeding contract. I don't know where it went but there was a poster before me that had complained that owners were being somewhat selfish for not having one litter. They were saying that this would save the breed from extinction. That post has since been removed (maybe by the poster). Trust me, I respect breeders and what goes into keeping the line of good health and temperament, which is why I bought from someone that has been a breeder for 30 years. I also looked for references on the health and temperament of their pups. I had an experience years ago from someone who was selling for a quick buck and would never go that route again. Thanks for listening. I just didn't want people to think that I thought having one litter was okay. Charliesmom AKA Karen |
KTB wrote: This was on UK tele this morning, about 300 sheepie pups registered against thousands of Labrador pups. They had a man on who has 3 sheepies and shows them, cant remember his name, and a lovely sheepie called Breeze. He said they are good dogs to have but require hours of grooming. Not helpful if they are clipped they are really easy to look after. I didnt think he did the breed any favours. I think the man was Billy Moore - who has been showing and breeding for many years. Sadly, I missed the show. I receive the breed supplement which states all the puppies that have been born, their sire and dam, as well as the results for various testings and who has obtained CC among other things. The UK as a whole have been struggling for many a year to increase numbers, plus with many dogs not being shown a lot of breeders are using the same stud dog which in turn reduces the gene pool. Plus we are all testing our dogs for PCD, thankfully most are coming back clear. So all of these factors as well as the OES being a high maintenance breed in todays ever busy society doesnt help. I worry as I am one of the young people who will be taking the breed into tomorrow - but I am so worried as to what I will be left with as some breeders have seemed to have damaged the breed that I know and love. |
charliesmom wrote: Willowsprite wrote: charliesmom wrote: I just did the puppy search in Canada as well. It was difficult. There are absolutely no registered breeders anywhere east of Quebec and only one in Quebec. I do not remember having seen one in Nova Scotia for eons (although I know there is another owner here on the board). I had to have mine flown here from Alberta. It was worth it as I have wanted one for over 30 years! Most of the breeders I have spoken with will only sell on a nonbreeding contract (not a problem for me) but that could be why you don't see owners having just one litter. We sell them on a non breeding contract because we want to protect the breed. Someone with the intent of just having one litter doesn't have the level of commitment they need to breed quality oes. It involves so much more than just putting a couple of dogs together and people just do not seem to get that. Pedigree and health research, testing, training, showing, grooming, not to mention learning the huge amounts of information about vaccines, raising a healthy litter, gestation and whelping, finding the right homes etc.... it's not something anyone should just jump into. I DO want to see new people become more involved, but we want to see people passionate enough to really get involved, people who want to learn and are willing to do the work to do so. I had a few long time breed mentors for about ten years before I had my first litter. I don't breed often, but I don't think it's wrong for good breeders who produce quality, healthy puppies to have a few litters a year if they have the time and money to do so properly and be able to stand behind each of those pups and their new owners etc. I just wanted to respond because I completely understand the reason for the nonbreeding contract. I don't know where it went but there was a poster before me that had complained that owners were being somewhat selfish for not having one litter. They were saying that this would save the breed from extinction. That post has since been removed (maybe by the poster). Trust me, I respect breeders and what goes into keeping the line of good health and temperament, which is why I bought from someone that has been a breeder for 30 years. I also looked for references on the health and temperament of their pups. I had an experience years ago from someone who was selling for a quick buck and would never go that route again. I completely agree! we went the same route when we looked for our Leonard. The breeder we went with came highly recommended by another breeder and several other people I contacted. She also could answer my long long long list of questions because she had a great many years of experience. I wanted a sheep dog SOO BAD and there were a couple of places I could have got one right away but I didn't. I waited for seven (painful) months for my sheepie; he was so worth all that waiting and research. I got Leonard on a non breeding contract and would never dream of bringing a litter of puppies into the world casually given my experiences with rescue dogs (our local humane society is currently so stuffed with unwanted dogs they are advertising half price adoptions). The reason Leonard is perfect is all of the attention that was put into his line; I don't imagine creating a line with several champion dogs is something that comes about easily or with a casual litter every now and then. I was talking somebody involved in the shelter and they say they see very few dogs from high quality breeders (likely because most good breeders screen potential buyers and require you to return an unwanted to dog to them also chances are if you pay a couple grand for a dog you are going to put your all into making it work). A person who casually breeds their household dog isn't likely going to have that level of commitment. I was speaking to a friend of mine about sheepies going extinct and she said it was such a shame because she loves Leonard so much. She also pointed out something that had never crossed my mind; if you want a lab or a border collie (or any kind of doodle you can think of-I know these aren't a real breed but there are "breeders" out there) there is likely a breeder in your area who will sell you one for around $500-$1000. Look for a more uncommon breed (Aussie Terrier, Cotton Dog, Dog de Bordeaux, OES to name a few I have experience looking into) and you are usually looking at more money, a waiting list, screening process plus transportation costs. If you have no experience with the breed that difficulty finding a breeder and the addition cost of transportation may be off putting. If you know the reasons why you want a sheepie and you have done the research and know they are the right breed for you then that would likely never cross your mind or deter you (hence me not thinking about it until she pointed it out). I understand WHY a quality dog is more expensive my point is a lot of people don't realize the reasons for this cost and that dog breeding isn't a profitable venture. She bought her pure bred dog with no health guarantee, no screening process and no wait time (she has a fantastic dog btw) and for a lower cost so when I was looking for a dog she thought it was a lot of trouble. P.S. After having a sheepie I don't know that I will ever want any other type of dog. Don't get me wrong I LOVE my rescue Ru but he's one in a million, I have never seen or met another dog like him, I don't even know what kind of dog he is. I suspect my skeptical non sheepie loving husband is slowly coming around to my side after living with and training this beautiful intelligent loveable clown. The clown is currently bounding around the living room stealing cutlery, pillows and remotes. I should go give him the attention he seeks; he is an endangered species after all.  |
| I keep getting people stopping me in the street telling me how theyve read about them in the newspapers etc.. its such ashame. But on the other hand theres including Bloo there are 12 sheepies in wolverhampton Weve met 4 of them so far and spoken to most the owners. I think we have half the sheepie population living here lol The numbers of sheepies left are only the ones KC registered. There are loads of breeders that unfortunately do it for the money not for the sport  Many people dont have them from a KC breeder as they cost more. |
| You may want to stop and ask actual people the reasons and not "Clubs" or spokespersons! Almost every one I meet were either part of a family or extended family that owned several or lived next door to people that owned them (ignore the claims of probably 15% who sjust say it to have something in common.) So if they were so popular and apparently loved where did they all go, surely we all haven't moved into Mega City 1? They are the most easy of dogs to live with in my experience - okay so there is a little brushing, but apart from that no trouble whatsoever (unless you are an over licked cat!) Next time someone regales you with fond tales of Sheepie ownership of yesteryear ask them why they stopped owning them. Full Breed dogs are no longer PC by animal welfare or the media, you are encouraged to pick up a mongrel from the local dogpound not actually encourage the terrible practice of thoroughbred breeding. This along with the cost of ownership must have a measurable effect on ownership? I regret having Archie neutered even though I am on a none breeding contract, maybe the breeders would have benefited from his robust nature? I think he would have truly made a fantastic example of his line (given more attention to show standard grooming) People really do not know what they are missing....... |
Archies slave, i totally agree with you  Ive seen loads of people that say they 'used' to have them but not many 'have' them now. Besides grooming they arent any different to any of the other big breeds (they are the best big dog)! All this people dont have time is a load of rubbish. Theres so many people with poodle crosses, i mean they take just as long to groom. All these designer dogs are killing out our loved oes I dont understand why people pay 500 pound + for a mongrel, its crazy! |
Omg there is even a sheepadoodle  http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/poodlemix.htm Another reason for non breeding contracts I see. |
| I have had lots of people come and pat Tiggy and tell me they used to own a sheepie. When I asked why they didn't get another they've mostly said they're too big (here in Aus little dogs are in, mini poodle crossed with maltese type dogs) and the grooming was too much for them but it cost too much to pay a groomer to clip them. Only one or two mentioned that they are working dogs and needed exercise and stimulation. And I was really sad when a lovely guy at the off lead park fussed over Tiggy and told me he had owned four sheepies. His fourth boy he got in the seventies when sheepies were really popular here. By six years old he was really crippled with terrible hip displasia. The owner tried to talk to the breeder (just for some info and advice) she cracked it and flicked him off. He found out she was known for breeding lots of dogs with bad hip dysplasia. He spent a couple years lifting his boy up and down the three back stairs to potty and eventually had to let him go. The whole experience was so devastating that he couldn't bear to have another sheepie. He didn't even get another dog for quite a few years. He has a standard poodle/golden retriever mix now. Grrrrr I didn't go there. I was very sad that he gave up on sheepies but could kind of understand it as he was upset telling me the story even though it was a lot of years ago now. And he just loves Tiggy. |
| They aren't the easiest dog to deal with, but if you love the breed the work is so worth it. |
| I completely agree!! DH and I have always had short haired dogs especially dalmatians but we've both agreed we can't imagine not having a sheepie ever again. Tiggy has completely won our hearts. DH admits he's lucky because I do all the grooming.  |
| Bailey is so easy to deal with being an Aussie, her hair is still pretty short and totally takes care of itself, she's a people pleaser and learns easily, then there's Eevee with her tons and tons of fur and hours of brushing due to the coat transition, being little miss stubborn i-don't-care-what-you-want But I love both my dogs, but for totally different reasons. Bailey because she is fun and loves to do things with me and loves to play, Eevee because she is a big ol sweetheart who just wants someone to cuddle her. She loves to play with her squeaky ball and I love to watch her play with it, it makes her so happy! I'll have to post a video of that someday. |
| Tiggy and Evee must be related. Tiggy adores her squeakie ball. It could entertain her for hours. |
| It's Eevee's favorite toy, she's not big on playing by herself unless it's with that squeaky ball! She kicks it, chases it, and is even learning to play fetch! She used to have trouble following where the ball went, but she's getting better now It's funny, Bailey doesn't chase after Eevee's ball, but she'll go after anything else. |
| Tiggy too. She pounces, kicks, stomps on and chews her squeaky. She won't fetch a tennis ball but she loves to fetch her squeaky ball. The squeak really gets her going. |
Ron wrote: Several news flashes have come across my desk overnight saying that the Old English Sheepdog has been placed on the "endangered dog list" because only 316 puppies were registered in the UK last year. So, is our breed facing extinction? Hi Ron this has come as a shock to me, having our 1st OES (Duke) in 1978 and who lived to be 12, we would see lots of OES, now when we walk the sheepies people say to us ohhhh I've not seen an OES for Years !!!! we either have 2 or 3 sheepies who live with us , I can not imagine not having a sheepie in my home loving us  |
| I got my first OES in 1970 from Bear Creek Kennels when they were in Dayton, Ohio. Dee and Jim Mattern moved to Michigan later. "Bubbles" Bear Creek Spindrift was a wonderful dog. Since then I have had many rescues and even one from a backyard breeder. I love the breed and hope to always have one in my home. When I got Bubbles I joined OESCA and was welcomed warmly. Dee and Jim helped us to groom and taught us about showing. Then my beloved puppy was hit by a car when she was at my inlaws farm. After I lost her I didn't have an OES for many years. I have been known to stop my car and go talk to someone walking a Sheepie. I once saw someone walking 2 of them and spent the next several weeks trying to find them. ( I was unable to stop fast enough to get to talk to them.) I got one of my Sheepies when my husband and I took a walk. We saw him on a front porch with flies swarming him. I told my husband I was going to take him home with me. He said I was crazy. I knocked on the door and spoke with the man there. I told him I would like to at least groom his dog to show him what he could look like. I left with him. Thats how I got Jake. It took me 3 weeks working every day to get him cleaned up and in good shape. We were headed to the creek in the truck to get rocks for our flower garden and the owner showed up wanting him back. I cried all afternoon. He brought him back that evening. He said he was a totally different dog. I was off for the summer and Jake and I spent every minute together. When my husband got transferred to Texas a couple of years later and we couldn't take him I spent a month finding a good home for him. He lived to be 14 with him. I love the breed and want to see them flourish but I agree about mentoring new breeders. Those who have been successful breeders need to help new owners to show their dogs and if they are interested help them learn the million things they will need to know in order to try breeding this wonderful breed. We also need to combine the best from other countries in order to imrove our breed. Just the views of one Sheepie lover. Bonnie/Carley's Mom |
schoolmarm wrote: I love the breed and want to see them flourish but I agree about mentoring new breeders. Those who have been successful breeders need to help new owners to show their dogs and if they are interested help them learn the million things they will need to know in order to try breeding this wonderful breed. Bonnie/Carley's Mom They do. I have so many mentors some days I'm literally tripping over them (OK, only certain days at certain big shows  )I've found long time breeders to be extremely generous with their time and knowledge. Just my experience. That said, the bigger challenge these days may be finding those breeders/mentors, who are also apparently on the edge of extinction at what some times seems like an alarming rate. Kristine |
| I think another issue is the actual showing. It costs an absolute fortune over here in the UK to show your dog, in travel costs alone. I had to give up because of the fuel cost. If your dog has to be a champion in order to breed (assuming you have a breeding contract) then it's a lot of money and effort to get them that far, especially if you are new to showing. I don't think there is a huge monetary profit in being a registered breeder either, so you would have to be someone who would do it for the love of the breed alone- which of course is a good thing- but you're going to be putting in a lot of cash, time and energy and then you have to find an excellent Vet... and then the right people to buy the puppies... |
Hint of Mischief wrote: I think another issue is the actual showing. It costs an absolute fortune over here in the UK to show your dog, in travel costs alone. I had to give up because of the fuel cost. If your dog has to be a champion in order to breed (assuming you have a breeding contract) then it's a lot of money and effort to get them that far, especially if you are new to showing. I don't think there is a huge monetary profit in being a registered breeder either, so you would have to be someone who would do it for the love of the breed alone- which of course is a good thing- but you're going to be putting in a lot of cash, time and energy and then you have to find an excellent Vet... and then the right people to buy the puppies... Cassie - thats a shame as we need new people to show the breed. It certainly does cost a fortune to show here in the UK. I think on average, we probably spend £150 - entry fees for two dogs (around £20 per dog), petrol (around £50), hotel stay, catalogue, food. Then time off work. But the cost of catching up with friends, human and doggy, and having a gossip - priceless! In all honestly it is an effort to get obtain a champion status for your dog however many years one has been showing. The UK Kennel Club are brilliant at taking money but I feel they offer almost no advice. Plus if one wants to breed in the UK (and all the other counties) then there are lots of testings one needs to obtain to ensure that the dogs are healthy. Some of these tests are yearly while others are a one off - each costing a fair bit! Indeed getting the right people to love and care for the puppies is hard. I was a hard task master when I came to vetting new puppy owners. It is just so sad to see a breed I love with a passion decline so much! Its not fashionable these days to have a pure breed, it has to be a cock-a-poodle or labapoodle, everything-a-poodle! Some of these are being sold for a lot of pennies. Having said that I did use the extinction of the OES as an excuse for the hotel not to charge us £15.00 per dog at the weekend! I mentioned to the hotel that our breed is on the endangered list and if they charged us it wouldnt be fair. I got away with it on the understanding that the hotel staff had as many cuddles as possible - Lincoln and Esher were happy to oblige.. |
Smart girls. Good way of getting free room for the dogs. I think Cassie makes some very good points in my case most of the shows are at the north of the uk . Mel is right as well its good fun to show & look at all of the dogs a new puppies & the owners  . We had a great time on Sunday |
Moontime wrote: Indeed getting the right people to love and care for the puppies is hard. I was a hard task master when I came to vetting new puppy owners. [/color] I can happily confirm that Mel was indeed a hard taskmaster but we passed the test and are now owned by the lovely Cloud  Debs |
Parwaz wrote: Smart girls. Good way of getting free room for the dogs. I think Cassie makes some very good points in my case most of the shows are at the north of the uk . Mel is right as well its good fun to show & look at all of the dogs a new puppies & the owners . We had a great time on SundayParwaz, I do get away with murder whatever the hotel chain may be! Sadly most of the shows are up north - Mom and I have to travel over an hour to get anywhere..... (I must win the lottery so I can move to a more central place for shows) I love catching up with everyone its lovely. Parwaz - are you going to LKA to watch? |
Monster Celyn wrote: Moontime wrote: Indeed getting the right people to love and care for the puppies is hard. I was a hard task master when I came to vetting new puppy owners. [/color] I can happily confirm that Mel was indeed a hard taskmaster but we passed the test and are now owned by the lovely Cloud Debs LOL Debs - I was rather horrid I know. But I wanted to be sure. Huge kisses to Cloud and huge hugs to Mr G. Speak soon xxxx |
| I think the breed needs better publicity. People stop us with Fozzie all the time. The first reaction of folks is that they are high maintenance and that they must shed. They are shocked when I say that their hair falls out just like a persons and they don't shed like other breeds. People also don't realize that you must keep them in a long coat. Foz has always been in a puppy coat because his skin breathes better (he has allergies too) and we also have some allergies. Keeping him at this length is a win-win for all of us. He is a housepet and doesn't need to be in long coat. Once folks realize this, I've had them really consider getting one as a pet. I don't see any different in grooming them as you would the popular Labradoodles or Portuguese Water Dogs. The Portuguese are seen as a "hypoallergenic dog" which is such a misnomer. All dogs have scents and dander that can affect allergies. If they want to use that term, I think OES fit into that category as well. Just my 2 cents |
| ahem, kindly excuse my interjection from Canada I am on to my 3rd OES who is now 6 months old, the first 2 lived a glorious 13 years, I have a large fenced yard, backing on to a field they tear loose like a bullet, thy are obedient, loving, loyal, brilliant, protective yet so gentle, etc., oh, I can go on forever... This is my breed, I know them well. Anyways, I am horrified in how few breeders we have her in Ontario Canada. They are dramatically declining, from over a dozen when I acquired my 1st, to around 7 or 8 during my 2nd, to around 4 or 5 breeders today with very few litters every year or two. The cost of an OES pup has also soared to reflected supply, from $600 30 years ago, $800 almost 15 years ago, to around 2,000-2,200 today. I do not know whether the demand has decreased due to the overwhelming grooming needs, as they also need a great deal of daily exercise, and constant human presence, etc. This understandably not a dog for everyone as they do require considerable ongoing energies to keep them up. I too am concerned as this is the last breed on earth that I feel should be subject to endangered or someday extinct with such a dramatic decline. I can go one forever how wonderful they are, so long as one grooms them every other day, they are also the most beautiful dog in my opinion if you will kindly excuse my profound bias so I thought I'd chime in here. |
| When I brought Helene in to get her puppy shots and to be looked over by the vet, he is from UK. The vet refered to her as being an exotic breed. He said because there really aren't that many around. |
| Vet let us know we are currently the only OES in her practice and at most she's had 4 at one time, 3 of them ours, Kdog will have to hold up the breed's honor here in the South Valley. |
| when we brought Potter in for his first puppy shots, we ha to schedule it on a day when all 3 vets were on, and all of the support staff. No one had ever seen an Old English Sheepdog puppy before- just adults! |
| Sounds like he has the beginnings of a full-on fan club all of his own. |
| When you have people that breed that do not do any testing, just indescrimanately breeding yes there are issues. Also when you have Big name breeders that 'say' they do the testing, but do not have any PERMANENT ID for making sure it is THE dog that ws tested, is an issue as well. Some are breeding without anything saying 'i've hd 20 years and i know my bloodlines better than anyone' is an issue...........especially when they are producing autoimmune dogs, bilaterally deaf dogs, dogs with entropian and then continue to breed those dogs telling people they are 'okay' to be doing the breedings, because 'they know their bloodlines' YES WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!! One lady spent OVER $20,000.00 on TWO dogs from these two kennels with same bloodlines, to try to save her two dogs. The breeders couldn't have cared.....their response "Oh, I've never heard of this". Well another person lost 2 of HER dogs as well. Only she was the wrong person for this to happen to. She is a retired police detective.......she put together a health survey and sent it out to others with known dogs from these 2 breeders kennels. Ihave a copy of the files she received back. They are 8 inches thick. It just amazes me the answers that were give from the other owners, that were given to them by the breeders. "Oh, I''ve never heard of this disease", "Oh, wow I'm so sorry". Not once was there ever any 'true' feelings of being sorry do any of us think. And even after being confronted, it was all swept under the rug. SOME of the breeders were 'removed' from the "Breeder of Merrit" program and "Health Committee" for 8 months. 8 months......... and now they are at it, breeding again doing the same thing. It SUCKS. Its not fair to the dogs, the people that bought them or, the people that will be buying future dogs. There are alot of the same health issues popping up again.....and it makes those of us that DO breed by the books, health advisories and do the things we are supposed to do angry, sad and infuriated to the point that we don't know if we want to continue breeding, we feel like WHY? WHY BOTHER? These "BIG TIME" breeders everyone runs to are the ones perpetuating the issues......... when does it stop? so in answer to your question..........YES OES ARE BECOMING EXTINCT, especially to what they were in the 70's when they were overbred. It is going to come up to new people to ask the questions for what testing was done, are th dos permanently id'd (as they do switch dogs when they know somehting is wrong with dogs when testing time comes), and to not buy except from someone that can provide you with all of the paperwork....... |
| Yes Stacey but you do not show your dogs so how do you know which ones are of breedable quality? you don't. |
| It is worrying as I would like to get another Old English Sheepdog in 2017. I had a quick scan on the Internet for registered breeders in Alberta and nothing came up. Next year I am going to visit the dog shows and try and find a breeder. Hopefully I can find one, if anyone knows of a reputable breeder in the Alberta area, please let me know. |
| Tanja, LOL, what not another Newfie?? Poor Buster! |
| Oh yes another Newfie too!! I have to plan this right as my husband doesn't want four dogs in the house. When Monty is 6 I want another OES so that when Monty is eight the puppy OES will be ready for Agility and I possibly might stop Monty in agility at eight. We will get another Newfie when either Buster is really old or passed on. Busters mum died on Tuesday, she was 9 years and 11 months. I am really hoping he we live longer, but as she died of old age I expect Buster will have a similar live span. He is 6 now so it is depressing to think he is in the second half of his life. There are better dogs for agility such as border collies and Shelties but The OES has so much fun doing agility, they treat it like a game and everyone has fun watching an OES doing agility. I am so proud of him, not only does he enjoy the agility but the petting he receives from everyone between runs. Buster comes and watches, but he is only interested in the randomly deposited treats in his mouth and being petted. |
Quote: Buster comes and watches, but he is only interested in the randomly deposited treats in his mouth and being petted. sounds like me now, no wonder I love Buster  |
SheepieBoss wrote: Quote: Buster comes and watches, but he is only interested in the randomly deposited treats in his mouth and being petted. sounds like me now, no wonder I love Buster |
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