Help!!! Ramseys Behavior and Opinions!
Ramsey as a younger pup, he was a bit into resource guarding from me or my SO, nipped that in the bud, and he's completely fine with a human taking away a toy, bone, whatever. Recently, he does it with my other dog, Layla, my 3 year old Labradoodle. He has been aggressive towards her, he has been in the past but very rarely, and only when a bone was involved. Lately he becomes aggressive towards her when there is a bone involved (I do not let them have them anymore unless they are separate). And now toys, she will go to get a toy, he won't let her/stops her or takes it from her, or another example, he will take a toy from her, then chase her, growling and bumping into her with it in his mouth. He has gotten to the point on several occasions where he just becomes a different dog, completely only focused on her and almost obsessed, attacking her, snarling, growling, snapping, (he hasn't bit her yet, at least not to draw blood). I stop this right away and get him to focus on something else, away from her. If I see the warning signs, his stance changing, his eyes get that look on her, I try to stop it right there when I see it and completely remove him from the area. This is not an always or everyday occurrence, and if it does happen, it seems to happen later in the evening. I know that I have been a bit lacking in normal, basic training as he's the 2nd dog (no excuse), which I started right back up. He gets a decent amount of exercise but perhaps now is also the time to up the exercising as well. I don't want this escalating, as my 3 year old is the most lovable, sweetest, gentlest dog ever, she becomes afraid of him after these attacks (don't blame her), but is fine a few minutes later. I don't want her to get hurt or me in the process of separating him. He is also not neutered yet, he is 8 months old now, we were waiting til he was fully grown, however that may change now and probably sooner. I spoke with 2 trainers/behaviorists, and they each had VERY different things to say. Each do home visits. One pretty much said, I've worked with many OES, they are all the same, bossy, aggressive dogs, they need to earn every single thing they do. Neuter him right now, and I don't want to get into a conversation about why to neuter or not with your husband but to sum it up, I am in a lot of trouble if I don't and she doesn't come and train him, he will severely hurt or kill Layla. That while the warning signs are there now, he will not give a warning sign once and that will be it. Needless to say, THIS SCARED THE CRAP OUTTA ME. My sweet Ramsey, who is normally a great dog, a little mush that has to sit on your lap, and follow and be near Layla normally, would be like this? The other trainer was just a bit more calmer to say the word. She does the house visit, evaluates them together, trains Ramsey with Layla, etc. She didn't freak me out on that there was almost no hope for them, which is how I felt on the other one. On neutering she said it does help and never hurts but she isn't going to tell us to cut them off after just a phone call. Regardless, he will be getting a trainer, I don't know what I am even asking, opinions, thoughts, ideas! As you all have sheepies. I guess the first trainer really freaked me out, because my thoughts were kinda that he is an 8 month old teenage, testing boundaries, and limits, and hormones, and his dominance, and his place in the world and while he could benefit from a little more exercise and basic obedience, that he isn't going to be an aggressive, mean dog! Thank you all in advance!  |
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| Interested in the responses myself, only I have two bitches. Lacey is getting worse and worse about resource guarding with Ava. It's the exact same story as yours, only mine are both girls. She doesn't do it to humans - only Ava. So yeah, I would like to see some responses on this too. |
| So GLAD someone else is going through this. Not that I am glad they are doing it, but you know what I mean, lol. |
Just MY opinion.....................I would work with the 2nd trainer. I totally disagree with 1st one who generalizes about OES's. At 8 months, he is a teenager and like teenagers and can be stubborn and push boundries and need Training Training Training! Just my opinion  Good Luck and I don't believe he's a lost cause. If you are not planning to show him, I believe in spay and neuter. Talk to your vet. |
| I can't help you on the behavior, but I would DEFINITELY stay away from any trainer who says "ALL" dogs of any particular breed exhibit XYZ behavior. And "I won't discuss why to neuter with your husband?" I have to admit that sometimes when we discussed neutering with clients at the vet hospital, you would think we were suggesting castrating the owners along with the dog. But a statement like that? Sounds like she has her mind set already, and won't change it for anything. The 2nd trainer sounds much better. You want someone who will work with all members of the household (2 and 4 legged), and who can adapt their training methods to best suit the situation. Good luck!  |
| Holy Cow! Dump that first trainer in the toilet! Talk about a freak show...WOW. Taking the toy, bumping into her while growling, while I'm not there to see it I do think its an invitation. "Come on, try to take it away". I see it all the time, right in my own home with Simon the instigator. Body slams, or the milder bumping is normal in this breed. Simon does a lot of growling. For him its normal play growling. There are times when it "sounds" like the two are ripping each other to shreds but when you look closer there are no teeth involved. Agreed, he is a teenager and will push the bounderies and test how far he can go. Thats where you come in. Its important to either keep and eagle eye on them together or keep them separated when you can't. Ramsey needs to know this is NOT accepted behavior. If you see it starting, jump right in, reprimand him and a short timeout. He's pushing and being a royal pain in the butt...normal for any puppy at this age. Do invite the second trainer in to access the situation and they can probably come up with more information to help Ramsey know this is not acceptable behavior. |
| SECOND TRAINER!! Eevee and Bailey do stuff like that all the time. It's just how they play together. I don't mind it, but if it bothers you, have the trainer help you! Ramsey is NOT going to kill Layla. Bailey and Eevee had one serious scuffle over a piece of dog food, Bailey got a very small puncture wound on her leg, and it has healed nicely and there haven't been any problems since. Dogs do that kind of stuff, they need to establish a pecking order too. They like to put their paws up on each other and try to be the dominant dog. Eevee walks all over Bailey for the most part, typical butthead sheepdog! Like Pam said, it might sound like they're ripping each other apart but they really aren't. All the bumping and chasing with the toys sounds like playing to me. It's also totally possible that all that snapping and growling he does is him trying to get Layla to play with him. Our dogs like to wrestle around a bit. Does Layla not want to play with him? And does Ramsey do the play bow (front end down, back end up!)? Or even, why don't you take Ramsey to a regular obedience class? It might help him learn boundaries around other dogs. Socializing them really helps! |
| Sorry that you are going through this Bridget! I would have been terrified after talking to the first trainer. I have never used a behaviorist, but IMHO, go with the one that you feel the most comfortable with in dealing with Ramsey. You have to have some rapport with the trainer in order to learn and be effective. The first person sounded too judgemental and opinionated for a telephone evaluation.  Good luck, and at this age, keep repeating to yourself: "I am the boss, I am the alpha"  |
| Thank you everyone! I knew hearing other peoples opinions would help. I spoke to another trainer, who said the same thing, sheepdogs are a bossy breed but no one should be telling you he's an aggressive dog out to hurt, especially over the phone, including the part about hurting the other, she said she would bite her tongue. She agreed, basic obedience is what he is lacking. She said the same thing I knew and you all said, the bumping and stuff is in his nature, he's a herder. She went over everything with me, basic commands, what he does, and doesn't know. I know I have been a slacker on his normal training, and it was nice to hear positive stuff, from this trainer and the other one I spoke to. Layla does play with him normally, they go back and forth with the playbows, they usually get along great, and when they do go at it, it's rare, and it does always sound worse than it is. The trainer I spoke to last night had a great point, Layla is a very submissive dog, and hardly puts him in his place, so he continues to badger her, but she has put him in his place a few times and he does back off. She said that Layla just lets him do what he wants and have what he wants, so that's just how he thinks the way he should be. NO mention of being an aggressive or mean dog, also she said he does not need to be neutered yet, that it doesn't have much to do with his behavior. I feel SOOOO much better. They played so well all night, snuggled all morning, I just couldn't believe that first trainer!!! |
| An update!! We had the 2nd trainer come in. She was wonderful. She REALLY helped my SO, as he has never had a dog before, so the things I have told him, even tho he believes me, it was nice to hear it from a professional. She gave us some tips on training and it brought back a lot of training I had done with Layla, and just a nice reminder for ME to stop slacking! Such a relief, and really after talking to that first trainer, the nut, UGH! Just how unprofessional can you possibly be! Makes me more mad now than anything! |
| Yay! Glad to hear that the second trainer is working out for you guys (: |
Very good news  |
| Glad to hear you got this sorted out and you're headed towards a solution with the second trainer. Ramsey didn't even bite Layla yet and he thinks he will kill her? ...sounds interesting to me, since I was just home at my parents' house with our four dogs, all of whose favorite pastime is fighting over a toy. You did the right thing looking for the aggressive stance, though. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy, but at some point aren't dogs going to be dogs? They do have instincts. Izzo is the most passive dog out of the four of them, so he doesn't mind when his bone gets taken away but I generally listen for any sort of yelp. When I hear that high-pitched yelp I intervene, making sure everyone's okay. |
| We LOVE our other trainer!! Ramsey has not bit her yet, mostly it's a lot louder sounding than it is, I just hope and never want it to escalate. I do agree, and so does my new trainer, multi-dog households there will be scuffles, always being around each other, there will be crankiness. She mostly wants to make sure that Ramsey knows OFF, so well that he can be called off or made to walk right away from her in the instance he decides to get a bit uppity. So far, so good!! |
| Interesting post and I can't offer much help but Kenny is still weird on the leash when we're around. If a dog comes to our place, he just wants to play and have fun and he still gets A+++ at daycare and boarding but for whatever reason, he is super barky and I feel like almost nervous when we're around or grabbing a coffee. I am starting to think it's more fear related than aggressive because he never tries to attack...he just does his big loud bark and can growl. It doesnt always happen either and it is definitely worse sometimes than others. He's never done anything to a person or children which is great...he kinda just stands there...not overly excited or unexcited around people. Any ideas? PS - Kenny is 15 1/2 months old now. |
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