Bloo is ready for the chop...
He is now 18months, he runs off, he barks, he nips and bites when he wants attention. (Ive found when he starts biting and barking its because he needs to poop.) The main problem is his obsession with dogs. Even on lead and its on the opposite side of the road bloo will go mad and lunge and yap at it, playfully not aggressively, ive tried turning him away and getting him to a heel with toys and treats, he just moves his head around to see the dog, once out of sight hes fine. Another big problem is off lead. Most people would say i shouldnt let him off with other dogs, but i have to to learn and to see bloos behaviour with them. I posted in the behaviour section about him mounting a dog so i wont repeat that, but now he runs off to all the dogs one by one and tries to hump them! Im not sure if its his age and hes practising, or if its his testostrone and dominance. Ive also found hes getting too heavy and rough when hes 'playing'. He romps with cassie as theyre the same size but hes started to be too rough with her too. Ive watched and learnt that he runs off to a dog chases, pins it to the ground and lies on top of it... Now i know all this its getting to a point i cant let him off lead. Even when theres no dogs i cant get any focus as hes constantly sniffing scents looking for females, i avoid the park for these reasons. Everyones telling me to 'neuter your dog!' its hurtful and embarrasing because bloos being taken by his testostrone  i cant get him back once hes taken off to a dog. The other night he lunged and ran at a dog with my mom being dragged behind shouting, i snapped the lead short made him sit and totally ignored him all the way home. Hes getting too much for any of us to handle. At agility i let him off first time and he goes whizzing around for minutes, you cant stop him, the trainer cant even stop him we have to wait for him to lay down, after that he does everything. He just has to do the whizz first. Anyway...I know i keep bragging on about this whole neutering thing, but i really dont know if its worth it. once hes neutered it cant be undone. My trainer told me to neuter him too as ive told her all this too. Many people say it wont work, but some say it does slowly. Ive waited so long because i wanted bloo to fully mature and stop growing before we had him chopped. I need some help and advice for making my decision. My mom said 'its your dog, its up to you' but i dont know. Will bloo be the same if hes neutered or will it help? I dont want to take away something thats natural if it doesnt make any difference. Maybe he will grow out of it will persistant training... i dont know, but even if he is being neutered i want to wait until he is at least 20months. Any ideas, opinions or help would be very much thanked. I cant decide |
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That's a tough one. No, neutering won't "fix" him - only training will do that ( time & maturity generally helps, too, with most normally wired dogs - hard to say if he fits that in his case - it seems he's always been a live wire  )If you plan on having him neutered anyway, keep in mind that he's done with most of his growth in all likelihood. If you truly wanted to wait till he was done growing, you'd need to wait till he was 3 and in some cases even 4 years old. But, and even with him being an agility dog, you probably don't gain much in protective health value by waiting two months. Not sure about the behavioral benefit in his case. I guess my bigger concern would be an intact boy with no recall if you neuter him, though it probably won't tone him down much, at least you don't risk him passing the crazier parts of himself along to another generation of canine terrorists.  Even though I am an agility enthusiast first and foremost, I would march his behind off to a good obedience class and ride that same butt till it was clear in his mind who runs the show, and it ain't him. You'll ultimately end up with a better agility dog, too. It won't matter how good he is if he's buzzing other dogs or what have you, instead of minding his business and yours. Obedience training should be able to reframe that argument for both of you Not telling you what to do. You have to feel comfortable with your decision. But I don't think it would be the end of the world if you have his balls chopped off. In fact, from the sound of it, the dogs in your neighborhood might even pass the hat to help pay for it <vbg> Still, the first thing i'd do to address the issue is up the obedience training ten-fold. kristine |
Personally, unless you plan to breed, there is no reason to keep a dog intact. And I think it does lessen some behavioral problems but of course, training is always the key.  |
If Kobuck had not had a retained testicle, I believe we could have managed his behavior through just training. He was just about there when he was neutered again (he had been left cryptorchid). Zero tolerance... telling him to stop the behavior and redirecting... or limiting his freedom. I had him dragging a leash and supervised closely when he was playing so I could time the correction better. He would rather play than be on a leash attached to a door knob for a timeout. A few minutes later he was given freedom again to either make the same mistake or play nicely. The moment it started again and he didn't listen to "OFF" or "leave it", his freedom was again limited. "I mean it" training... man, it was exhausting at first.  We did training for about a month before he was neutered the second time... he was almost 2 by that time. By the day of the surgery, the urge to hump, lick, drool, mark,... eh, you get the picture... was still there but he had better self control. In 3 weeks of his proper neuter, the obsessive, rude behaviors just stopped and his focus on play and training really improved. But I think the training that happened before the surgery really helped. I'm not saying what to do either... just sharing one experience with one dog. |
| My Jakester who regularly ate ham off of me became the sweetest old man at the age of 11 after having his cryptorchid removed. I hesitate to say it will be a fix for other dogs because I only have my own single example to go by. But it is what it was. |
| Like Diane says, if you're not going to breed or show in confirmation, have him fixed. |
| I think I have Bloo's older cousin here...Garfunkel. Since the day he came to us he was and is a handful. We did the obedience training and that helped some but its me being ever watchful and correcting that has helped the most. He does play rough and he does nip dogs that "run". Thats the herding part. At Sheepiepalozza I let him run...with a basket muzzle(allows him to pant and he can even drink through it). His recall stinks so I have to be careful where I allow him off lead. He humps other dogs and he is fixed so thats all about dominance. Age, pfft, he's seven years old. This dog makes me tired but he is loved. My dh adores him and thinks he is perfect. Of course he is never the one running after him correcting his behavior or hauling him off the dog that he's humping. And than we have the times I walk into my bedroom and he's sprawled on the bed looking all cute and comfy and my heart melts. I tell him all the time that he's lucky he's so darn cute and he'll look up at me with those brown eyes and slurp my face and I just laugh. At these times I think, yeah, its all worth it. I'm telling Gar's story because I think that Bloo is so much like him. He's a free spirit. Will fixing him help? It may...or maybe not. He's still young so training, training, training could go a long way. Letting him off lead when you're not sure if he will run off is not the way to go, it just teaches him that he doesn't NEED to listen. So my suggestion is to get this dog into obedience class and work, work, work, this dog. Let him know that there is one boss and he's not it. In the mean time, get him fixed...you never know. |
Ashley wrote: Personally, unless you plan to breed, there is no reason to keep a dog intact. And I think it does lessen some behavioral problems but of course, training is always the key. Actually, there are very good and documented health reasons for keeping dogs intact, males especially. But if it's a management problem, or there's a retained testicle, neutering is surely the lesser evil. I had a friend who's agility golden had a retained testicle. She only had the retained one removed. Not because he will ever be bred, he won't. But she's well aware of the protective health benefits of those hormones. Plus, contrary to popular belief, desexed dogs tend to have more behavioral problems, not less. But, again, if the dog is at risk of randomly reproducing, or the owner doesn't want to be bothered making sure he doesn't, neutering may be the way to go. Kristine |
oh my goodness Pam, Garfunkel does sound like bloos older brother not cousin!  Thanks for the tips. I spend all my time with bloo out in the garden and walks training. He listens and does everything i tell him. On the park, even if the parks full of children and footballers he doesn't run off he stays close, BUT if he sees another dog, he will suddenly barge through everyone to get to it...not good for me or the little dog hes squishing. I have a cannycollar which stops him pulling on walks, but when he sees a dog, he doesn't care about his nose he pulls. So i used to pull him on, but he wouldn't budge he sat having a tantrum on the pavement....very embarrassing. Its even harder when there's someone walking the dog behind us because i literally have to run with bloo until we are too far ahead, or else bloo won't carry on until hes 'played' with the dog. I'm trying so hard, and bloos making me look like i cant control him to other people Anyway, for the past few weeks I've been making bloo sit and 'look' at me when i see a dog....is it working? nope. He just moves to see around my legs. I know what your all saying about me letting him loose on the park, I don't allow him loose when there are dogs on that we know bloo doesn't play nice with. I've tried keeping him on lead and walking round (this was suggested by the trainer) and keep doing this until bloo doesn't bother looking at dogs but would rather be with me. Oh I tried for weeks, no improvement. I even took him in the tennis court when there were dogs on to see if I could get some interaction then...nope, he just sat looking out the mesh. So i used to pull him up and throw the ball, he'd run and fetch it back....but he'd run straight past me to the dog. Its so frustrating, because I have to keep him away from dogs, not because hes aggressive or nervous but because hes wild. It's so hard to control him around dogs, I've ended up letting go of the lead on a field before because he was yanking my arm so hard I had no choice, he'd gone. I'm going along on Wednesday evenings to help my agility trainer do puppy class, so I might learn some tips then. As for taking bloo back training, he completely freaks out. Most our obedience are inside little huts etc.. which i personally don't like. If I take him back anywhere it will be fitz, he does his outside in the field, hes an RAF army man hes awesome. But again, I'm really not convinced bloo will change hes too open minded right now. If anyone but me has hold of his lead he bites and throws a massive fit. I'm constantly telling people not to touch his lead or neck area or he will ... might ... bite you. He lets Chris take hold of him at agility because hes learned to trust them, at first he was the same with them.If some stranger tried to take bloo away say on a walk he would attack, when he growls he proper snarls, that stranger wouldn't ever touch us again...but then bloo would have to be put down... I cant win here. I'm trapped in a vicious cycle! It doesn't help that there are so many vicious dogs about, bloo has been attacked twice by the same dog in 2days. The woman just lets the dog extend on the lead and bloo goes submissive and freaks out. the last thing I want is him being nervous. I think neutering might help with the dominance but not the training. Maybe if that's taken away he might listen to me more. Thank you so much i really appreciate it! This forum (unlike the other one I've been on) is so friendly and understanding, i really appreciate it. Thanks |
| Hm, my dad's border collie never got fixed and he was absolutely nuts all the time especially with other dogs, until about 10 years old and then he just mellowed out all at once. He never left the yard, as we had 11 acres that he could roam freely and he just never left (what a good dog!) but if a dog was anywhere in our yard he was going to be playing with it. He jumped all over people too, so not just other dogs. When I was little he dragged me across the yard on quite a few occasions when he wanted to chase down a squirrel, I was like 8 or 9 and I was walking him around on a leash (this was before we had the 11 acres we could let him loose on, we had 15 but we were worried he'd run off cause there were lots of houses and stuff around) and he literally pulled me right off my feet and dragged me! I was quite dirty and scraped up, but it was kinda fun I've always had girl dogs since then, so I'm not much help, but that's my experience with an intact male for you. Personally, I'd get him fixed, I've noticed most boy dogs that are fixed are nicer and more behaved than intact boys, especially when they're young. Oh, and Jacob actually got bit by an intact male dog (it was his parent's dog) when he was 6, on the throat, over a sandwich (and his parents didn't even notice anything happened!). He says the dog was a lot calmer and nicer after they got him fixed, he's still a bit scared of dogs though because of it. |
| Training isn't down to the dog it's down to the upright. You need to be in charge not Bloo. |
Hi Sam I have never had a male dog so I dont know about them. Bloo does need to know that you are the leader of the pack and not him. I am sure you will get there, you do a fantastic job with him.  Have you got a trainer you can talk over neutering behavior etc? |
| I agree with Kristine,Mark & Sue. I was told that you have to be the boss or they will run all over you. Everyone has put very good points across but I don't think cutting his nads off will solve your problem. You have don't a great job so far & you are both young & learning just keep at it but you must be very firm. |
| When the Jakester was the Jakester, it wasn't a question of who was in charge, but there was always a possibility if he didn't like what the boss was saying that he could bite. We learned how to avoid pushing his buttons and avoid triggering his responses. We learned his behavior before he'd bite (stiffening) and we learned how to talk him down and to avoid making sudden movements when he was about to bite. I also learned how to talk him down and get him to let go of my arm when he was clamped down on it. As I said earlier, he got much better after his second (first successful) neutering. |
I hope that if you choose to neuter, his focus will improve and that his drive will lessen.  Ron wrote: As I said earlier, he got much better after his second (first successful) neutering. My vet likely thought I was a fruitloop for asking that a neutered dog have his testosterone level checked... we had photo proof of 3 incisions. My vet told me a few months ago that she had a second cryptorchid boy that had been left intact after a neuter done locally. I think it happens more often than we think. Sadly, it's an injustice to both the dog and their owners. Was Jake's retained one also found higher in the abdomen? |
| Thankyou x My mom said we should neuter him. Sue-ive talked to my trainer shes helped so much, as i ssaid hes an angel, but if theres a dog in sight something in his brain makes him a devil. Hes obsessed with dogs, whatever i do makes no difference. Ill keep trying anyway, who knows maybe its an adolescence thing...or its just bloos personality, hes outgoing and cheeky, but i need to nip this recall in the bud. All id like is to be able to loose him in a field without him running off to dogs |
| Bloo must be a relative of Tiggy's!! Tiggy is the same, does everything I ask her until there's another dog and then she just wants to run away and chase them.  I'm still working on it and she's 4 years old. Good luck. |
| I don't know the details of where the cryptorchid was other than it did require abdominal surgery which was very tough on a sick 11 year old dog. The testicle had become cancerous with a Sertoli tumor and was producing copious amounts of estrogen which had enlarged his nipples and turned his grey skin into a mottled color. After the surgery his skin returned to normal and his nipples shrunk way back, but not quite to normal for a (male) dog. |
| Sam - Bloo knows how to take advantage of you. Craftyness is also a sheepie trait. Dogs generally want to say hello to other dogs - its not a fault (Some are grumpy but that's another thing) male sheepies are playfull if not willfull, if you can't trust him off lead then he will have to stay on the lead. If you don't have the body weight or strength to hold him back - don't let him pull you from the front, correct the pulling by steering him to one side or the other, steer his focus away. It makes walks longer but you can control him easier that way. Is Bloo your dog or is he a family pet and maybe someone else in your family is seen as the Alpha? I realise you are the one that posts about him but you may not be the top dog so to speak? How much support do you get from the family with regards his training etc? |
| Hi. Bloos my dog, he lives at home with me,my mom , my dad and 2 cats. But hes my dog, i saved up and brought him, and i do all the work with him training etc.. He will only work and do tricks for me, he wont do it for anyone else. My moms often said he sees me as his 'playfriend' im the one he jumps all over and play fights with etc.. weve got such a great bond, bloo follows me everywhere, we are best friends at home. As i said its only when theres a dog that ive lost him... As for training, my moms been very supportive, she phoned places when bloo was a puppy and taxi me around. She takes us to agility and pays for my classes. Im always showing her new tricks ive taught bloo, and shes always been there for me. I do everything, walkies, poo picking, training, shows etc... all my mom does is buy everything Im only 16 myself, so im getting a lot of remarks from people, saying how bloos too big for me and im too young to be out by myself with a dog that size. I dont understand their problem. I have a few rope burns from him pulling on the lead but im not dead. Anyway, i understand where your coming from regarding the pulling because he really does pull, thats why i have cannycollar. I pull him back in when he pulls but my moms always telling me to stop yanking his neck. She lets him walk all over her, she wont admit it but she does. He cant control himself, half the time he does things then stops as hes realised hes doing wrong. Ive always been firm with him, my old trainer was an army man so i had to be, maybe i let bloo have a little bit of freewill and hes taken over. As for alpha male....in our house id say the cat rules. She puts Bloo in his place. But we humans bloo walks all over...well, he doesnt actually bother my dad as much as me and mom. He definately sees me as a playmate, i also admit that i do play 'doggy' with him Thanks for more help xx |
| Sam you need to work on letting him know the difference between "PlayTime" and when he should be under control. Archie goes crazy with me and can play very rough, but only when I allow it, he seems to understand this and generally it happens in our back garden. When we are out and about I know he likes to greet other dogs (I also appreciate that not all dogs want a 4 legged cloud bouncing in their face) I am selective when and where I let him off the lead, especially if there is likely to be any cats that need a good licking!! When I recognise owners or dogs that are happy with him and the area allows it, I will let him off the lead, when the situation is otherwise then he stays on the lead or if someone comes into the area that I am not familiar with or know they don't either like his behaviour or they have dogs that react or elderly owners and dogs then I put him on the lead. Bloo will get better but you have to be constantly alert to your surroundings and not let a situation develop. You also need to be calm and not over reactive to situations if they do develop. Archie on the whole is a very happy friendly dog who has a very easy going disposition, but I am very aware that he is also a Wolf in Sheepies clothing. it takes a lot to provoke a negative reaction out of him but I do take reasonable steps to ensure that he is under my control, his recall at best is wilful, if a river is near by and he wants to get muddy he gives me a knowing look ..... "you are to far away and I can have fun!" or so he thinks I have deliberately let him off the lead for him to have fun in the river - otherwise we'd be walking past with his lead on and when the lead is on he doesn't attempt to go there. I always enter the fields on the lead whereas other owners have their dogs off the lead, I am in control and can evaluate who or what is in the field and it is okay to let him roam. In a snow filled field he really doesn't want to leave even after 2-3 hours with his legs all clumpy, how do I get him to come out? quite easy I don't chase him or shout to him, if he doesn't come on the first call, I say "BYE" then actually leave the field and get out of his sight, seconds later he comes trotting out wondering where dad has got to. Whatever you do you need consistency, ie he needs to understand that when he is on the lead it is a good thing but you want him to behave, and that when you deliberately allow him to play it is under your terms and conditions. If he is having issues off lead then you need to have him onlead most of the time in public places, work on the pulling, turn get him to sit praise him a little, does he like food? can you use this as a control ie reward for good behaviour, once you have got the pulling on lead under control, then you can start working on the off lead behaviour in public places, but put aside a little time for off lead training at home in the safety of your garden, we would all love the freedom to let our dogs run free but the reality is until you can totally trust him off lead and have methods of recall that work, then ideally you should keep him on lead - after all they are big dogs and ignoring the fluffy cuteness what other people and other dogs see are big dogs with big teeth and claws if there is any contention. You don't need to yank the neck a gentle turn aided with a distraction (voice/food/noise/touch) should be enough to snap his brain out of going towards the thing he is focussed on. Keep working with him it may seem like a hard task at times but things will improve. |
| Hi sam, that last post makes a lot of sense. You didnt go to the sheepie fun day Archie is lovely, perhaps Bloo could go and stay with them for a week or two! I never thought before but my adult son plays rough with Summer and me and hubby dont! She actually behaves better with me than with hubby. Our last sheepie was totally different she was so naughty, bless her. |
| Sheepies together is a great mix - they don't get intimidated by each others bouncy open nature, other dogs a lot of the time, especially on first meeting them, are confused as to exactly what they are, dog? sheep? erm maybe it's a dogsheep! I know I'll bark at it! |
| No Sue i didnt. Ive only been to the waterpark day out last year Hopefully we can sort out a day out where more sheepies can come along. Archiesslave - That is true, i stress as soon as a dog is in sight as i know bloo is going to yank me off to it. PPeople tell me how bloo will be able to sense im stressed and will only be worse. So ive tried to relax and it is working. Bloo isnt food motivated he never has been. The only time ll take a treat is when hes starving and its a last resort. Other than that he takes it but spits it out... When i used to train him and still now i use the clicker and reward with a lot of fuss and a tuggy toy. Its really hard to play tuggy while hes on the lead, he has a habit of tugging the lead while its still atavched to his neck  Ive tried turning away and distracting him, but it only makes him even more wound up, he will then start lunging and barking at the dog. Ive found the only thing thats working is i make bloo sit and wait for the dog to pass, if the other dog owner allows them to greet bloo will sniff and i say "good" then reward with a scratch behind the ear and we carry on walking. If he lunges or squishes the other dog then we turn and walk back and i make him sit,round,lie down etc.,...to distract his mind. Its improving but he is still lunging. I will keep at it. As you say i need to be consistant, so im going to use 1 training method and stick to it. Maybe Bloo will them realise that he gets reward for sniffing, but not for squishing? Ill give it a shot. Thanks Sue- I know i souldnt be playfighting with im, but thats bloos "reward" as he doesnt take treats, i have to play with him and get him really excited as a reward. Half the time bloo wins as he just splats me When ive had enough i stand up and make him sit and say "enough"...doesnt work though..i just walk away As for the sheepie day out, i get really stressed about taking bloo, as im scared he will either get too bouncy and hurt another sheepie, or if another sheepie takes a dislike to bloo. It really worries me I know it should be a fun day but i always think of negatives ... I need to think POSITIVE Thanks for the help |
| He won't hurt another sheepie unless he is exceptionally feral, he will sense he is amongst similar spirits, you should have seen Archie this afternoon when I got home from work a total crazy clown, but that is "Our" special time if people saw him they would think he was attacking me but it is just his way of welcoming me home and burning off energy he has been sleep storing up through the day, let the bouncy zoomies commence. As for food motivation - not even cheese?........................................ bizarre! |
| Have you tried cottage cheese? That's Eevee's favorite. She'll do anything for that! |
| Nope, i told you, bloos not normal. He would do anything for cheese! But hes allergic to it, the smallest piece makes him sick. We think he has a dairy intolerence... We used hotdogs instead but bloo wasnt falling for it. Its ashame because he loves cheese, he doesnt understand why hes not allowed it Honestly ive tried every treat out, he wont take any tit bits, he likes gravy bones vut they are too big really for training. If anything i have to boil up some liver or beef |
| Try goats cheese instead if he's intoleratnt to cows milk |
| Ive tried goat cheese/lacto free cheese. He seems to know its not normal cheese and wont eat it. |
| how about peanut butter? |
| He LOVES peanut butter! But im not sure how i can use that on walks etc.. I use the peanut butter to spread on his kong. I cant exactly cut it into pieces lol |
| toast a slice of bread, properly toasted not soft, then thinly spread peanut butter onto it, then cut into 1 cm or so squares, pop in a bag. |
| Oh that's genius! How have I never thought of that? |
| Jack was bonkers for peanutbutter cookies....yep people type. Neither of us needed all the sugar but we'd share a couple. |
| Thats a genious idea, ill try that. Bloo loves toast and peanut butter! |
What did happen with Bloo? Did he behave like a good boy or did he get the chop? I ask because Bloo sounds so much like Sprocket. He has been "threatened" by 2 dogs when he was a tiny puppy, then the first training class we went to he got bitten by a black lab-never liked them since and the 2nd place we took Sprox to he was attacked by a little cross bread dog. We were told he gives off something that threatens other dogs/bitches. When we meet a dog on walks he just wants to run away as fast as he can-totally ignoring me or husband and even the trainer we hired to help him.xx  |
| Hi ! It's been so long, I forgot my password haha, but I'm here as a guest for now! Mr Bloo is 8 next week and still got his manhood He's been an absolute nightmare, causing trouble with other dogs, he hasn't been allowed off lead as he's unpredictable. He's not so bad now he's older, he's got spondylosis so he doesn't bother much with dogs, but I still don't let him off lead with any as he can turn growly and bitey. He's had his young fun days with agility, though even that was a problem at times with him running off through fences to cause fights.. But when he behaved he was amazing! He's enjoying his retirement now, If you're on Facebook you can follow him at BlootheSheepdog and join our group Old English Sheepdogs of the UK. |
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