Chylothorax Recurrence And Glaucoma
They did a CT Lymphangiogram down at MSU on Tuesday and it showed his lymphatic system is abnormal. If there had been numerous leaks into his chest as the new lymph pathways had reformed after his surgery last November, they would have put another port in and sent him home... there wouldn't have been anything to be done other that tap his chest as needed for as long as he remained happy (removing/dumping chyle will take it's toll over time causing metabolic imbalances, malnutrition, susceptibility to infection, etc.). Instead, they found 2 main thoracic duct branches they believe are causing the problem. IF I understood our conversation correctly, they also need to know more about the pathways over his diaphragm before they can decide whether a second surgery might still fix him. I think the concern now is if they close these two branches of the thoracic duct, will new channels form in other harmful areas. Discharge papers- About the lymphangiectasia... his protein level last week was normal. http://oesusa.com/Bumble-MSU072412.pdf Quote: Diagnosis: Recurrent chylothorax Thoracic and abdominal lymphangiectasia CT Lympangiogram Interpretation: Diffuse lymphangiectasia with cranial thoracic extravasation of lymph and secondary known chylothorax. DISMISSAL INFORMATION : Bumble underwent a CT lymphangiogram under general anesthesia. The results of the study are summarized above. Though lymphatic dilation/malformation is present in his chest and lymph/chyle leakage is occurring, there appear to be two branches of the thoracic duct extending from the abdomen to the chest. Ligation of these vessels as part of a second surgery may be feasible for treatment of his recurrent chylothorax. Where we stand... Dr. Stanley with Michigan State University will return next week to go over the test results and Dr. McAnualty from the University of Wisconsin- Madison will also look at them. Both will give an opinion as to whether a second surgery might save him. There haven't been that many second surgeries... heck, there haven't been that many first ones... but "re-do salvage procedures" have been done at the University of Wisconsin-Madison with over a 50% success rate. I spoke with Lindsay at the UW-Madison and she told me they had done a second surgery on a dog last week. I'll update next week when we know whether surgery might help or if the only option is a chest port. Pictures from his playtime with the pack on Sunday and eating green beans/peas from the garden.   From today... a brief playtime outside with his buds. He's had diarrhea and vomiting last night and this morning but seems to be getting over that... likely due to stress on Monday and Tuesday. He has also been breathing harder but there was little chyle in his chest on Tuesday. One thing different about this overnight say... he didn't shut down as he did before. He continued to eat so his level of stress may not have been as high.  The other thing is that Cootie has glaucoma. I knew when I passionately pursued this independent little imp that she had birth defects so this isn't something dreadful as with BB. One eye shrunk, the other has had a cataract since she was a pup. I was grooming her Monday night and thought her eye looked a little different and a few times she had run into things over the past couple weeks but she does that on occasion anyway. Got her in to a vet just before leaving to pickup Bumble on Tuesday. (The guys were mad at me for delaying our departure but I didn't want to spend 7-8 hours for a 3rd day in a row driving back and forth to MSU!  ) Her pressure was high, in the high 30s to low 40s (normal around 25). They said to bring her right in to MSU to be evaluated by an ophthalmologist. Several students were in to see her and look at her lovely but defective deep blue eye. http://oesusa.com/KayteesEye-072312.jpg Her pupil was somewhat reactive then but isn't now. I was told the nerve (was it nerve?) in the back of the eye is smaller than it was 7 years ago, that the eye isn't formed properly so the drops may not help. Prognosis is guarded to grave for return of vision (the little she had), can take 2 weeks after pressure is controlled for her limited vision to return. She goes back in tomorrow locally for a pressure recheck... if the pressure doesn't come down, we'll discuss removing the eye because glaucoma is a painful condition described to me as the constant dull ache of a migraine, brow pain.I know she'll do just fine... she had been totally blind 7 years ago when her eye clouded and walked over all the orange cones in the MSU obstacle course... but as human's we still mourn any loss. To put this in perspective though... she doesn't have to drive to work so she won't loose her job... doesn't have to read to pay the bills so she won't loose her home... doesn't have to sew up her own dog toys after she's chewed a hole in them so her toy supply will be adequate.  Just a slight change noted in her mobility... like hooking things more that are out of place. Took her out tonight to play fetch and her fetcher still works great.  |
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| You and your husband have such a huge heart for these guys. I can't think of a better home for Bumbles and Cootie. Though they have trials, they seem to thrive in your pack. They are both very fortunate to be with you. |
| Jaci, I'm so sorry about Bumble. If you end up coming to Madison, let me know, please. I took Mad there after she suffered her FCE and they are absolutely wonderful.  Kristine |
| Jaci, I have absolutely no doubt that Bumbles (and Kaytee) are in the best of hands with you. I know you will see to it that they get the best of care. I wish I knew half of what you know. Fingers & paws crossed that things work out and they can have good, long, pain-free lives. |
| we are all pulling for you and your pups . i know he is in the right hands having you as a mom.. hugs |
| Thank you :*) And I will let you know if we go to Wisconsin, Kristine. Bumble needed his chest tapped again today, 780cc of chyle, but still breathing heavier, less active. Eager to eat and still happy for now. Kaytee's eye pressure dropped dramatically... down to 12. She doesn't react to anything in front of her face but she did put her front paws up on the exam table wanting up. A vet tech (Kris had fostered Meesha as a wee pup 13 years ago) walked Cootie down the hall to see if she would avoid a chair... but kept trying to protect her for the collision. hehehe She was a great foster mom!  |
| You are remarkable Jaci! |
| Big Hugs to all of you..... |
Been away a few days so I'm just catching up - all I can say is - wow. There's no doubt that if any dog in your home has problems, they couldn't be any place better. Hugs and prayers for both Bumbles and Kaytee, and special hugs to you and Jim!  |
| I'm hoping you get some good news for your kids.... |
I've been thinking of you & your kids, Jaci. Hoping to hear news of improvements.  |
| Thank you very much, everyone. Bumble's surgery is scheduled for tomorrow at 12:45pm. The only certainty is that without surgery, he has zero chance of survival. Praying he's strong enough and there won't be any complications. |
| They were only able to locate/tie off one of the two leaks. |
| That doesn't sound like the best news Jaci. What exactly does this mean? |
| Hopefully that one is enough for Bumble to have a long and happy life |
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| They drained 1 1/2 liters of fluid today before the surgery... that's a lot of fluid to have in the chest cavity. They've been draining him daily. During surgery, they found the one leak and were able to tie it off. I was told it was a very dilated vessel. They searched for the second leak going about 90% of the way around the vena cava... despite the blue contrast dye, they just could not find it. The lymphatic system twists and turns all over the body and no two lymphatic systems are the same. I was also told last week that Bumble's lymphatic system is abnormal. The doctor who called tonight said that he seemed pretty dry after surgery... but that the next couple of days will give us a better idea of what will happen. I know they did the very best possible in trying this one last time to fix him... that even if they had been able to close off both branches, new ones may form again. I sent the surgeon a note after talking tonight with a doctor who assisted. The surgeon mentioned that there have been spontaneous "cures" of various diseases... that if Bumble continues to leak, while unlikely, it could spontaneously resolve. I included a list of questions... wondering if there was some way I might do better this time. BP meds, cholesterol meds, anxiety meds, fat level in diet, fluids (just drinking water can increase lymph flow according to this article, diuretics, high or low protein diet, frequency of meals (4 small or 2 large... does it affect chyle flow?), adding medium-chain triglycerides, steroids, octreotide or rutin, etc. They just don't know the cause so they don't know what might help fix it. Quote: Unfortunately, there are no known good medical or nutritional therapies that work. We are starting some research to try and learn more about this awful disease. It appears that these ducts grow (and regrow sometimes) and leak in the chest cavity. When they surgically treat chylothorax, it's an effort to encourage new lymph paths to form away from the chest cavity. If you look at the numbers, the surgical approach Bumble had in November has shown very promising results. But as with all odds, you never know which side of those percentages you'll ultimately be on. Quote: We put a drain in Bumbles chest (like the one done last fall). In the "worst" case, we can always use that to drain any fluid accumulation, and we will do that... ... I suspect that Bumble will recover well over the weekend. Exercise restriction for a couple weeks (till healed) is a good idea. After that, keeping Bumble quiet and not stressed would be good, though I don't honestly know if this might affect further leakage. Chest radiographs as needed (depending on clinical signs, and at least every three months) would be a good idea. So that's where we stand for now... |
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| I just spoke with his student... They're now wondering if they may have closed off both branches by closing down one. This may explain why the second branch could not be found. Doesn't mean he won't eventually leak in the wrong places again but... |
| God I hope for more good things for Bumbles. Praying for no more leaks and a nice recovery.. Thinking of you guys. |
| Fingers crossed here too, Jaci Kristine |
| For Bumbles I know you guys are doing everything possible for your boy....so hoping it works! |
| I got an update on Bumble tonight. So far so good... there's no chyle leak, just pink/clear fluid which the surgeon said is typical with big dogs and this type of surgery. It had been white and cloudy when they went in. 500cc of fluid had been removed up to 6pm... their hope is that the fluid accumulation will become less as days go by and that he'll eventually dry up. More waiting to see what happens but they used the best words possible with this condition... at the moment they are cautiously optimistic that this leak has been sealed off. |
| Praying this will work! I have been upset because Rosie went completely blind Wednesday and we all think it's Cushings...she is handling so much better than me...to see her you wouldn't know...Bumbie's problems have been much more difficult...praying he will feel better soon. They really are like children and so hard to see them sick. You all do such a great job helping all your children! |
| Linda, I know just what you mean. Many times with vision loss, the dog does just fine... it's the people who mourn the loss. BB- Fluid's a little cloudy... 1 liter total yesterday. |
| I don't know how you do this... how you maintain your sanity while dealing with this. hugs and kisses and gentle rubs to Bumbles and Cootie. |
| Thanks Ron... Bumble & Cootie appreciate it. :') Nothing else can be done to stop the chyle from leaking into Bumble's chest cavity. We'll be bringing him home... |
| OH SO SORRY TO HEAR THIS WE ARE ALL HERE FOR YOU |
| I'm glad you'll have some time to spend with him at home. Love him up for me. |
| So sorry to hear this Jaci. Is there nothing else that can be done? Could he have a permanent port put in so the excess can be drawn off periodically? |
| Hugs and kisses to Bumbles, Cootie & Jaci |
| Jaci and Jim, my heart is breaking for you |
| Just catching up from being away, and this is definitely not what I hoped to hear. Hugs and prayers to you and Jim, and gentle belly rubs to sweet Bumbles. |
| I am so sorry Jaci. |
 Keeping all the paws here still going |
| I have my fingers crossed for you! Give Bumble some hugs for me. |
| Sorry you got such bad news. I guess the only consolation is you know you tried everything possible for Bumbles. Hugs to your boy. |
| Jaci, I'm so sorry . kristine |
| Sending our love. xoxo |
| Sorry for such awful news, Jaci. We're still keeping fingers and paws crossed here. |
| Jaci, I'm so sorry. Hugs to Bumbles and all of you. Cindy |
| I am still so sad about this. Hang in there Jaci. :hugs: |
| Just catching up--have been away for a bit. So sorry to see this post Jaci--special thoughts for all of you. |
 Oh no. I'm so sorry. |
| Jaci..hugs to you and Bumble |
| Thanks so much... this is quite the bundle of emotions. We thought we were loosing him last night... I woke Jim up and we sat in the kitchen watching him breath and discussed just letting him go. Shallow breathing, heartbeat that has always been very strong on the RIGHT side (odd considering his heart is on the left), noticeably weaker and more lethargic. The darn look of the fluid we've drawn off his chest since the last draw at MSU Tuesday afternoon and here that night is what made we see a vet again because to me it hasn't looked like my one past experience with chyle. The chyle I knew looked either cloudy-white or like a melted strawberry shake but a watery consistency... this fluid wasn't that. When BB's student showed me how to drain his temporary chest tube, I told him it didn't look anything like what we were getting off his chest 10 days post-surgery in November. I was able to access the Internet and show him a picture of the November 18th fluid and asked him to show Dr. H. Here's a comparison- http://oesusa.com/Bumble383.jpg Called Dr. B late last night. He had gotten a report from MSU and had called earlier in the day... he read between the lines that the prognosis is poor and that we've brought him home to spend his last days. He kindly offered his help to us here at home if the need arose. Poor man... little did he know we'd call him at 11pm last night. He had me tap his port again to be sure it wasn't fluid causing what we were seeing but only got about 20cc of fluid (they've gotten 1 to 1 1/2 liters per day). Called back and we took him in. Of course he was brighter once we got there. I took along a syringe of fluid to get his opinion on what had been coming off is chest. He took one look at it and said it's serum due to the irritation of the surgery. X-rays showed his chest was pretty clear of fluid after the last port evacuation. But... his blood values are messed up which may explain what we're seeing. I think we're going to need to be careful with infection too. http://oesusa.com/BumbleDunneBloodwork0808.jpgI had sent a note to his surgeon Dr. H (and nutritionist Dr. A) last night with a comparison of the fluid we were getting after the first surgery and after this surgery and called this morning. He took a look at the comparison and said they were great pictures. (The ultimate example of why I photograph seemingly insignificant stuff. ). He sounded cautiously-surprised/encourage maybe? and said it's a big serum-type word and not chyle. He said that the fluid we're seeing is normal after a surgery like this and not a chyle leak at this time (with this condition there will always words to temper hope). I tapped his chest port again... 20cc at 11pm and 86cc at 10:30am so it appears the volume may be going down. We took a sample of the fluid in today per Dr. H's instruction to have it checked for protein. He said that if the protein level is real high, it's still unfortunately bad news... if it isn't, it may be hopeful that the leak has been stopped for now. I just got a call that the protein level is very low and doesn't register. It seems like good news but again, I'm not a doctor. Maybe this low isn't good either. Dr. B put him on commercial dog food and vitamins... the surgeon agrees and said to add fresh protein sources like chicken. Stuff we avoided to get his skin in good shape. If his skin again gets bad with pyoderma (staph infection) we'll need to adjust the diet. It's more important at this point though to help him recover. This is a whole body thing now that needs to be balanced out, not just skin, an abnormal lymphatic system, etc. I have no idea how this might change the big picture but... cautiously-hopeful for the at least a little longer with our boy. |
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| I'm so happy to hear about every day you do have with him that at least there seems to be some light. Crossing our fingers here that it continues to go down that lighted path. |
| That sounds like cautiously optimistic news! Whatever the case, you have such a wonderful bunch of doctor vets working with you.  |
got sheep wrote: That sounds like cautiously optimistic news! Whatever the case, you have such a wonderful bunch of doctor vets working with you. Ditto!!!! |
| I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bumbles could not be in any better hands than you Jaci. With your knowledge and mindset, and your great vets, it really is clear Bumbles is getting the best care. Here's hoping you can have many more good days with him. |
| Jaci, I'm just heartbroken. I'm so sorry. I've sort of been out of touch, so I knew he was heading into the second surgery, but hadn't heard the results. We are keeping our fingers crossed for all of you. Bumble probably won't want to go back to dog food since he's be fine dining on ostrich! Maybe ostrich could be he's protein supplement.  Big hugs and ~nancy |
| wow..you are such a good mom |
| Thanks as always for the kind words, thoughts and prayers. Bumble's doing pretty good right now and seems to be getting some strength back. After BB was done being examined and x-rayed at the emergency visit the other night, the vet let him go and told him to find us. He made it fun for him. He came trotting through the halls looking for us. Dr. B said he looked pretty good this dog we thought was dying an hour earlier.  I called the MSU ER last night after looking up the two meds he's taking for pain and anxiety... Tramadol and Trazodone. What we saw may have been an adverse reaction in combining the two. From what I've been able to find online, the combination is to be avoided in humans because of the risk of serotonine syndrome. MSU confirmed it can happen in dogs too. (I'm appalled today that I had told MSU that I didn't want to kill my dog before his time...    Hey, I was sleep deprived. ) Dr. B provided a printout today from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook online that says the same thing.  I'm seeing a dog that's testing out every place to lie down in the living room because he can't settle down, a dog that is less responsive at times and making odd little barky noises when he's by himself and by me (however it may be that he wants more food. )... he's just acting weird. I've got to look into other things for his anxiety and make due with melatonin for now. I shaved BB's body down with a 8.5 blade this morning to possibly lower the risk of infection... it's still longer than the surgical shaved areas. He's eating like a horse but I need to figure out the diet to be sure it's low enough in fat. 116cc of fluid removed from his pleuroport yesterday that looked like the same serum stuff... I didn't need to tap the port today and will probably wait until Monday unless he seems to be breathing heavier. He was rechecked late today before the weekend to verify that his chest was clear enough (just to be sure the tubing inside was positioned right to drain fluid and not just missing it)... we'll do an x-ray next week. Mark, so many have done this same thing. I wish I could be calm, cool and detached but that's always been impossible. Likely each doctor and student I've talked with about Bumble has been told by me to ignore my choked up behavior while I ask questions I needed answers to. I told one surgeon it was better if we "talked" through email anyway.  And don't say anything kind or compassionate or it will make it worse. I'm such an emotional boob when it comes to loved ones. My husband and son have done so much... it's allowed me to focus on Bumble. Bumble has a great team of doctors, students and vet techs at MSU but also here who have been trying to give him a longer life. With the last port evacuation last night, it still looks like serum. I need to think of this awful thing called a chylothorax as being like an aneurism now, only not instantly fatal. I've seen how quickly this condition can turn really bad... producing 1 to 1 1/2 liters of fluid in the chest cavity per day and what the effects of loosing chyle/protein present like in the early stages. When I picked BB up, I was told he had edema in his lower chest area and at the bottom of his incisions. When he came trotting in, I saw the jiggly fluid filled tissue and it made me so sad because I wasn't prepared for it after being told his protein level was still normal the day before. We all try so hard to keep our dogs in good condition... it was just sad to see this rapid decline. While it's encouraging the fluid appears to have stopped leaking into his chest and the edema appears to be subsiding, I know now how easily he might leak again... and if it happens again, we won't try to correct it. For now, we're trying to LIVE LIFE LIKE A DOG! and enjoy the moment. I'll continue to work toward good current health for him but not focus so much on the future anymore because this is a deceptive and difficult condition. Tonight he dug up the couch to get the blasted blanket off it. He laid out on the front porch and played with a branch. While walking around outside, he grabbed one of his beloved tennis balls and laid down with it to chew on it. He picked up a Jolly Ball for the first time since being home and started to chew the handle off. Life is good and he's not dying today... http://oesusa.com/Bumble-August2012.jpg |
6Girls wrote: Exactly. Kristine |
| Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
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| What a rollercoaster ride I just read through. You are and awesome lady. Hugs to you! |
| Hang in there, Jaci. You're so much stronger than I could ever be under the circumstances. |
| Nah, not true, Nita. I've had my meltdowns... believe me. I spoke with the student that cared for BB tonight. They discussed what had happened the other night and they think it was only due to the Tramadol, not the combination of the two drugs. He going off Tramadol now... last 2 were at 3pm. He's breathing heavy when moving around just a little... but his gum area is pink. When BB was in surgery and on 100% oxygen, his level of oxygen was good... when they took him off it, his level dropped. He said there's possibly something going on with his lungs, other than the chylothorax, that they couldn't pinpoint during his stay. It could also be just part of his recovery right now so we need monitor it closely but ride this out for a while. He's to have his staples removed on Tuesday and we'll repeat blood work and maybe x-rays to verify his chest is empty. I had to tap his chest port again tonight to rule out fluid... his heartbeat on the left side was stronger that in the past so I don't think it's related to fluid. I could only remove 3.5cc so that appears to be positive unless by chance the tubing isn't accessing fluid (I don't think that's the case though). I'm going to ask Dr. J if she can obtain notes from during his stay so He found two dumb bunnies in the yard tonight (dumb because if Meesha sees them, that will not be good at all). He trotted up... got maybe 10' from it and stopped. It hung around for a little bit then took off. He would have liked to chase after it. Alert-woofed at the dog behind us when he startled him. Followed us around the house. He's standing beside me... breathing deep/heavy... because he knows it's treat time. AND whining! of all things. He'll get another meal, then he's going to bed. I'm going to spend some quality time with the rest of the pack... play time outside. |
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| He's doing pretty darn good at the moment. There's still some fluid in the pleural space in his chest but they feel it's minimal, possibly due to the irritation from the implanted port/drainage tube. The port was tapped today by Dr. J and she only got a little fluid out... the non-worrisome serosanguinous type of fluid! ♥ Amazingly blessed. ♥  Now I'm afraid to give him a bath because his skin is pretty stable. Last bath was July 22nd... that's a really, really long time between baths for him. |
| What a strong and beloved boy As always prayers and strength sent his way and to your family too |
| If his skin is stable then leave the bathing for awhile. Wont be detrimental to him at all. I can tell you in some countries maybe once or twice a year a bath. While he is going through all this dont upset as they say the apple card, if on the nose a bit, which I cant imagine with bumblelicious, use a dry clean method rather then bathing.Johnsons has a Baby powder product made from "Corn Starch" a powder to sprinkle on areas that need freshening up has also lavendar and aloe in it and great to freshen up maybe underneath if a bit weeeey or on the nose or if you need to freshen up around the face or outlet pipe or anywhere else on the pooch. Sprinkle on and then just get a soft bristle brush and flick out to make those areas fragant and sweet and dry cleaned. Looking at his photos he is so clean after all he is going through, skin great at the moment dont jinx yourself there too with worrying about bathing at the moment. Bumbles is looking amazing and we all here in upside down land keeping everything crossed, gawd he is such an adorable handsome boy, his dark dark eyes, expression and just way adorableness, melts my heart   |
Lookin' good, Billy B.  Now, HEAL!!!!!  |
| Jaci and Jim I think of you and bumbles every day ,wondering how things are going. He is just such a love. Please continue to keep us posted we all love him so... cindy |
| Thanks, Lisa, Nita and Cindy. Lisa, this is the longest he's gone without a bath in years. He does have a few things he's brought to my attention by licking. His feet smell strong with yeast and he's licked two feet soggy a few times since being home. http://oesusa.com/Bumble-0919123.jpg One of his ears has a little brown funk at the top of the ear canal. Shaved the hair between the toes and pads of that foot shorter so air can get at it better and I took a washcloth with the neem soap and cleaned it up. I KNOW how to effectively address the yeast because Dr. Dodds had shared it with me... oregano... but will it cause his lymphatic system harm??? Anyone care to guess? He also has some wee discharge that's yellow/green that I'm hoping I can take care of with a flush. As long as the sores don’t start showing up on his trunk, I can continue to spot treat. Since the first surgery and finally getting his skin balanced, it's his belly and the area between his back legs that sometimes still have problems. I've used Gold Bond powder, I know Marilyn's mentioned it before, on his belly to dry things out but not the pretty smelling kind. Thanks for the advice on the powder... I'll pick some up and give it a try. As for comments made elsewhere... Several doctors have told me that I have not caused Bumble's recurring staph infections nor his recurring chylothorax. Believe me, I've asked every specialist, doctor and every student assigned to his case over the years in an effort to make him well. It should be apparent that I would do anything to fix his problems. And really... they would not allow my dog to suffer/die just to spare my feelings. I think I've tried just about everything that had been recommended to me by others at least once. Frequent baths were needed before the first surgery in November because he would quickly become oily/greasy and had recurring sores due to staph infections. The approach has always been to avoid antibiotics when at all possible by treating topically. We tried to preserve his level of immunity and not face more serious MRSA problems. While he improved in health on the MSU food allergy trial, he continued to have problems. His derm-vet said to prove that there was a definite food-component to his problems, we could put him back on commercial food and let his skin get really bad... he knew I'd take criticism before allowing my dog to suffer. More theories on this that I won't go into here but in retrospect, my thought is that the lean, low fat ostrich diet controlled BOTH long running conditions. After that first surgery, it became a difficult balancing act... his skin does best with higher fat in the diet... but because of the chylothroax problems, higher fat will soon kill him. His skin evolved from oily to very dry on the Tufts University reformulated lower fat diet to help address the chylothorax and had to be addressed differently... I now had a dog with different skin problems. Topicals alone will never help if the body needs oil and the body needs EFAs which it cannot produce. Per the first surgeon's approval, more fat was added to his diet and as he gradually balanced out, problems were mainly limited to between his back legs and belly. There were seldom the big pyoderma sores on his trunk or legs anymore but smaller sores and discoloration. But then the chylothorax recurred. Actually, he was STILL leaking chyle almost 1 month after the first surgery so that should have been an indication he was going to face more life threatening problems since I was told by a student they usually stop leaking soon after surgery if it's successful. While this wasn't clearly spelled out for me, I should have picked up on this when these words were repeated, "We're cautiously optimistic". *I* believe his first severe chylothroax symptoms became evident back in February 2011. Videos were taken to show doctors how serious and urgent this was and it's what took us down to MSU for the first time in February 2011. As with many people, I think it was still thought all problems revolved around his skin, some felt that I was just overreacting.  (I know dogs... remember that I have a pack.) In retrospect, I believe Bumble coped/adapted, that there was a long running leak that just went undetected because he wasn't always like this- http://oesusa.com/BumblesBreathing.html but he did not have the endurance of the rest of the pack. Mind you, this breathing was at rest, not after play... however a while later, he could be playing. This Afghan article seems to support what we saw- http://www.affieloverbreedclubs.co.uk/chylothorax_2.htm . Hopefully you better understand why this was so difficult to figure out. That video was one of couple/few that were given to vets at two hospitals both in February and again November of 2011 to help convey what I was seeing here at home. You know how it is... you get a dog to the vet and they never act the same. I was adamant that they understand me... especially the second time. Jim and I were finally able to get a diagnosis because WE called and said we wanted a chest x-ray. I believe so strongly that this had been a long running condition that it took me some time to forgive a couple of doctors for not understanding that something was seriously wrong and for not "hearing" the presence of a chylothorax on repeated examinations. But that was unfair even on my part. And in all fairness, chylothorax is an uncommon condition. There are doctors who will never see a single chylothorax case in their entire career. Of 4 doctors I talked with, 2 of 20+ years had never seen a single case... 2 of 35+ years had only seen one. And heck, I know a couple of vets elsewhere that were unable to identify a common testicle. Because I love this dog, I have been forced to do some things that are far beyond my shy/backward comfort zone... one may help other dogs not to suffer in the future and others may give people a starting point with this dreadful condition that I never had. Anyway, of his two problems, his skin will always be secondary and need to be managed.Unfortunately I can't do a LD so I'll leave it as this... A wise dog woman often said, "Opinions are like butts... we all have one." and it applies to both average people, people of the breed, even doctors. It's natural to base things on our own experiences and the limits of our current knowledge... often thinking we know it all. There can be multiple ways to address a problem successfully and then sometimes no proven way to address it at all. I tend to listen more to those who have experienced a similar problem rather than those who are only surmising about one. If you haven't been through it, there's a chance you aren't quite so knowledgeable about the subject as you may think... especially when it's a less common condition. Unless you've tried to help a dog with a chylothorax or recurring staph infections, you're likely out of your league. |
| And by the way... I just tapped his chest and it's cloudy. Taking it to the vet to be analyzed but it's likely not good. |
| Thinking of you and your sheepies and sending support. My Mom just lost her special rescued girl and 5 vets/hospitals, $3,000.00 plus and not all of the vets were in agreement with what was wrong with her. Brain tumor and additional issues most likely. Only agreed she wouldn't be getting better. I'm sorry for the difficult road you are traveling and hope you have continued strength and support. Regardless of your Bumbles illnesses it's apparent he is enjoying his life and his family. |
| Here's hoping for the best for Bumbles. |
| Jaci, I wish the news was better, the poor kid has been through so much |
| Jaci You have been a strong warrior for bumbles. Out of everyone I know, you have researched many things, and due to that you were able to steer the Vets to a proper diagnosis . I don't believe many would have been able to do this.(I remembered when my savannah had the mass in her spleen you sent me an article on hemangiosarcoma that I had not seen) It has been a long journey for you and your boy. I just look at his pictures and want to melt. I wish I had something to say or do or a vet that could make things different than they are. The love and work you have put into saving his life is beyond incredible. All I can do is support all your decisions and be here on line for you.....or phone. Hugs and great admiration cindy and the gang at crazy acres |
6Girls wrote: heck, I know a couple of vets elsewhere that were unable to identify a common testicle.  Amen to that Jaci! |
| Jaci love to you and Bumbles, hoping all the best with him, the journey you have taken us all through so far is educational and enlightening and hoping all will be well there with this special man. On your previous post "Oregano" is that taken internally for yeast blooms? If so how much in the diet or applied if that is the case ? Does it help yeasty ears as well? Really interested in this as Syd been to the vets last week and like his Mom a raging yeast bloom in the ears we are dealing with now. Under controll after treatment but if there is something natural like oregano I would be so interested to hear that too if it can and does help a yeast bloom as far as the ear canals are concerned . His momma has had an ongoing problem since a pupper with yeasty ears and her son definately has her touchy ears Just want to say also, no experience in staph skin but I am so glad to read with bumbles that at the moment that is stable to bath or not to bath your with your experience is enlightening and again we are all here in upside down land hoping for all things positive with your darling man. You amaze me with info and sharing you do and what you have found out and are willing to share for us all. One day you are on my bucket list to meet you and the gang and from afar I admire you all so much, one day my bucket list with you jaci will come true!!!! |
| I would love to come back as a Sheepie and live with Jaci. |
cynmcreid wrote: I would love to come back as a Sheepie and live with Jaci. +1  Though as I think of it....  Why wait? Let's go now! |
| Jaci How is Bumble doing?? cindy |
| He's breathing heavy. Tapped his chest at 11pm but only got 3.5cc of fluid, heart did NOT sound muffled but had tapped anyway to be certain. Took him in to the on-call vet at 1am because of it... the vet had me tap again. Jim and the vet repositioned him a couple of times, got him into into a situp position... nothing. His gums are pink and when you press on them, they refill quickly. Light exercise doesn't affect how he breaths. There is some lung damage due to the recurring chylothorax problems... chyle damages the lungs. I asked before the surgery if they felt his lungs would support him and was told yes. After he was discharged, I was told there had been some breathing thing going on that they couldn't pinpoint during his stay. I've got to locate a vet here that can do some blood work that has experience with pulmonary stuff. Good though that the chyle leak has been low. Cindy, being a nurse you know how it is though... it's about symptoms, how they're handling the condition, not test results. And no... I'm not adopting any of you right now! I apologize to everyone who I haven't yet replied to. Honest, I tried to barter with Lisa... the oregano info for her whitening secret. I don't think it's going to work but it was worth a shot! Below is the information Dr. Dodds had shared on oregano...Quote: Oil of Oregano Call the people at North American Herb & Spice Co at 800-243-5242 . The doctor who developed this stuff for people worked it out for the dog as well; amount is based on weight. A medium-sized dog is given 4 drops of Oil of Oregano in food daily. Can substitute Olive Oil OR Oregano Use fresh or dried oregano herb on the food with each meal. Turmeric Use powdered turmeric spice on the food with each meal. The above is adapted from Sheila Schweit, Breeder of PBGV... The reply from Dr. Dodds about the oregano... Quote: May I ask one last question about dry Oregano? How much to treat yeasty ears/feet and how long is safe? As long as you want is safe. Just sprinkle it on the food liberally as you would in seasoning Italian food. 85 pound dog Amount of dry oregano per day? See above Long term maintenance level once under control or pulse-type feeding or simply discontinue and use again only if needed? Either is OK. I had also switched the diet to 50/50 potato and over cooked brown rice... the oil from all safflower to 50/50 safflower and olive oil. A friend did added the dry oregano to the meals... she felt one of her dog's eye staining was going away. I need to follow up to verify she still believes this. Bumble did improve while on this... but then a chylothorax recurrence was again diagnosed. |
| I have used coconut oil for a foster here that had yeast everywhere He was naked (along with a diet of salmon and white fish) Some antibiotics and short run of steroids too. Just my FYI Yes jaci it is all about the symptoms, and I (like you) fret and fuss about them. You , Jim. Bumbles and the rest of the pack are in my thoughts. If they could only talk to us hugs cindy |
6Girls wrote: He's breathing heavy. awww Jaci, I'm so sorry. 6Girls wrote: And no... I'm not adopting any of you right now! Well okay. We'll wait until things are calmer! 6Girls wrote: Honest, I tried to barter with Lisa... the oregano info for her whitening secret. I don't think it's going to work but it was worth a shot!  Jaci... YOU shared your secret before Lisa shared hers!?! Oh no say it it ain't so! We need those monks with the golden petals ground in the moonlight by vestial virgins to make their magic curative for BB.Until then Jaci... Big hugs from the Alvarez-Woods family and know Betsy Ross sends her best to your family and especially to Billy Bumble. Epilogue: Quote: Sadly, Bumble was put to rest on August 27, 2012 after a chylothorax recurrence. He had a second surgery at Michigan State University... there was a very brief remission but in the end they were unable to stop the leak of chyle. Bumble's Chylothorax Journal It begins at the bottom of each page- 10/15/11 to 11/21/11 http://oesusa.com/Bumbles-Chylothorax-Page1.htm 11/22/11 to 02/07/12 http://oesusa.com/Bumbles-Chylothorax.htm 02/10/12 to 06/23/12 http://oesusa.com/Bumble-StartFeb102012.htm 06/30/12 to 08/27/12 http://oesusa.com/Bumble-StartJune302012.htm Bumble will forever be greatly missed... he was our once in a lifetime boy. |
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