Discussion on OESCA-Referred breeder list

Baba wrote:

And for what it's worth, I don't think the "OESCA-Referred breeder list" is all that it's cracked up to be.

Before I respond to this statement, I was wondering if you you could expand on your reasoning. I don't want to open a can of worms here. I'd just like to be able to respond to the point(s) you feel are lacking in hopes of strengthening the referral program.

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

ChSheepdogs wrote:

Baba wrote:

And for what it's worth, I don't think the "OESCA-Referred breeder list" is all that it's cracked up to be.

That's really funny. I have no more to say to you.

Uh Oh!! Hugs all around... Before it gets ugly........

I think the problem with the OESCA breeder referral is that it is based too much on emotion.

They need a more scientific method to determine whether or not a breeder is accepted onto the list.

They should be looking at things like health ratings, customer satisfaction, longevity, etc.
Come up with a standardized way of rating these things, plug them into an algorithm, and come up with a composite number that determines whether or not a breeder gets on the list. Personal feelings should NEVER be included in the decision.

Having a breeder's inclusion based on as little as one person's opinion or emotions is just flat out wrong. This leads to cronyism and corruption.

And the process needs to be 100% transparent. There will be prospective buyers that will want to know why the breeder they're considering is or isn't on the list.

Until this changes, I can see why people will question the agenda and methods of OESCA. And they should rightly do so,

Inclusion on the breeder referral list isn't based on emotion or opinion. It is based on the breeders meeting the criteria set forth by the breeder referral committe (after much brainstorming & discussion & compromising) & then accepted by the board of directors at the time. If a breeder can meet the different areas' criteria they can be included on the list if they wish. Some breeders who can meet the criteria choose not to be in the list for their own reasons. The OESCA Breeder Referral list requires members to meet more criteria than just signing the OESCA code of ethics.

ChSheepdogs wrote:

Would you care to provide said criteria? Or a link to it? I'd be interested in reading it.

What kind of science was used to create this criteria. Are they subjective targets or hard, objective, fact based, measured numbers targets?
Is the criteria open to interpretation?

I believe OESCA business should be kept within the Club. Can we just get back to the original topic? This has no place on a pet forum.

Never mind the Breeder Referral list, as I just found out, responsible breeders who CHIC all of their breeding dogs, put a Championship on all of their dogs, only breed dogs with the absolute best temperaments,actively assist with rescue, are hardworking, passionate, and dedicated to the Canadian OES Club (Secretary, and just finished putting on a wonderful and successful National Specialty) are not deserving enough because, well lets see, I accepted help to save Abbys life because my husband has been laid off of his job (oh no wait, apparently we make a living off of our dogs

) and how dare a breeder accept help to save the life of a puppy......you know what, you can shove your Club where the sun does not shine as I would not want to be a part of a Club that would let some peoples' obvious personal feelings (totally unwarranted, by the way) decide that I cannot be a paying member of OESCA. You claim to love the OES, and yet I am deemed unworthy because I accepted help to save a puppies life? Very disturbing and insulting to not only my sponsors, but our Canadian Club as well where I am a valued member of the Board and work my ass off. My most recent project has been developing a new Code of Ethics, which sadly I must say I can guarantee the majority of OESCA Breeder members do not even come close to following. I can proudly say I do, and ultimately the only thing I care for is the welfare and future of the OES, not being a member of a Club who does not want me. I will continue doing what I have been doing for 25 years, and that is showing, breeding and enjoying my Old English Sheepdogs along with my family!

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

I believe OESCA business should be kept within the Club. Can we just get back to the original topic? This has no place on a pet forum.

I am not a member of OESCA and I apparently have no say with them or can even have a defence so why not here? The original topic is about Negative Experiences with BYB OES', and OESCA's breeder referral list has popped up on this forum constantly as the only place anyone should look to find a responsible breeder, and obviously, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

I believe OESCA business should be kept within the Club. Can we just get back to the original topic? This has no place on a pet forum.

OESCA business should not be kept secret from OESCA members. I REALLY wonder what the general OESCA members would think about what OESCA decides behind closed doors. OESCA has chosen to blow its credibility as an organization which actually promotes the well-being of the Old English Sheepdogs. OESCA has zero credibility. It's sad. Old English Sheepdogs face a very uncertain future, and OESCA is not helping at all.

I too would like to see this discussion continue - because if I'm going to trust an organization - ANY organization - to help me make an informed decision, I want to know their practices. If an organization isn't transparent in its practices, and willing to publicly state their policies and practices, then by default, I assume they've got problems.

If I'm making an investment, monetary, or emotional - or in the the case of most OES, BOTH - I want to know who's giving me advice, and how they know what they do.

GO GIRL!!! IT IS THE TRUTH! When you have a President of the club that won't even follow health suggestions and also permanently id his own dogs why does anyone do it. As my father used to say "It's a do as I say, not as i do" club. No wonder members have fallen over the years!

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

I believe OESCA business should be kept within the Club. Can we just get back to the original topic? This has no place on a pet forum.

Nita,
I don't think you can divorce the 2.
When people keep saying you should go to the OESCA breeder referral list to find a good breeder, yet OESCA itself will not indicate the criteria they use to include a breeder in their list, that speaks volumes about OESCA as a group.
What's their true agenda? What are they hiding? What is their process? Why is breeder A on the list but not breeder B?

If you (not you personally) want people to use an OESCA breeder, you damn better tell them why they should do that.

What seems to be happening in the club smacks of a "good ol' boys" club. As long as we share similar views and we kiss each other's butts, we can join and remain.

It hurts their credibility when they refuse to show why one breeder is accepted and another is not.
It appears very willy-nilly. And when it appears that way, prospective buyers will not find the benefit of using a referred breeder.

When I tell people looking for a puppy where to buy one, I do tell them to START with the OESCA Breeder Referral List. It's only a starting point. YOU have to make the decision on whether you want to buy from a particular breeder or just go to Puppyfind or wherever. If you find a breeder not on the list who actually meets the requirements of what YOU want in a puppy, nothing is stopping you from buying it.

I want to add one more thing....my reason for applying for membership to OESCA had nothing to do with being on the Breeder Referral List.....as a matter of fact I do not need to be on that list. I wanted to be a member to get the OES Times, to see results from shows, what dogs are out there, to simply read articles about OES accomplishments....and to be a part of a group of OES lovers.....to be included in Members Only features of the Club like meetings when I attend the Nationals, be privy to OESCA's Health Databases and developments regarding the health of our breed..........that is all.

If some of you think it was not a great idea for me to accept the donations for Abby, I can accept that. But to not allow me to be a member of a Club when I have done so much positive things for the breed....that is what I truly do not understand.

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

This was my stated objection. I have seen "look at the OESCA Referral list" put out there a zillion times on these forums. And OESCA is proving to have huge credibility issues. I am sure there are fantastic breeders on that list, but they are definitely not all great breeders. And there are fantastic breeders not on that list. So to me, it's no longer "good enough" to say "start with the OESCA Referral list", especially when OESCA decisions are deeply troubling. Owning a sheepdog (or any dog) should be a serious commitment, starting with a puppy should be a very lengthy one. I think prospective puppy buyers deserve better than "start with the OESCA referral list" which may end up being a crapshoot whether you get a quality breeder or not, and which may actually end up being a cover for some poor breeding practices!!

Here are two great posts with great questions which should be asked of any breeder:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37059&p=502778#p502778
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=36494&p=492127#p492127

A much better starting point than "look at the OESCA referral list"!

It makes me sick to see people who had lifelong dreams to get a sheepdog, end up with a sheepdog with serious chronic health problems, or serious behaviour problems. I know how wonderful it is to get an incredible sheepdog! How lifechanging it can be in the most positive sense!

Nita, you should be very concerned with best-breeding-practices actually being followed by OES breeders, as you've devoted yourself to what happens when they're not, and you've witnessed the heartbreak involved for both the dogs and people! And you should be very concerned when the organization whose most important goal should be the well-being of this breed, the promotion of best-breeding-practices, makes descisions which goes completely against that goal!

I am on Amber's side here. To get on the list not just for breeding puppies but for other reasons as well. Also if people starts to spread gossip about someone that don't help. Thing is that all litters should be checked by whoever in Referrall team. So you have a set of puppies someone comes round takes a swab of a puppy & tested. It seems to me that if your in the know your in good or bad. I think is the only way is too talk to people who have had dealings with breeders

If you think you have issues in the US,Canada. Just come to the UK & its all messed up. Its all about cost too the Kennel club

Parwaz wrote:

If you think you have issues in the US,Canada. Just come to the UK & its all messed up. Its all about cost too the Kennel club

It's sad, maybe if you're the Lab club you can afford all this crap and ####. But OES are an endangered breed, we risk leaving the future of the breed to the puppy-mills, and unscrupulous backyard breeders and people who really don't give a damn about the dogs.

Hello All......
As the President of OESCA, There are some topics that are very sensitive and can NOT be shared outside the Board meetings. Now, I know that there are some Board members on this list with the OES Forum. They are very hard working, dedicated and caring individuals. I remind you that they are not paid and much of their time they give is devoted to this Club. It does take them away from their families and personal life. Being an officer of OESCA is almost a full time job for most positions like Sally, Dea and Marilyn. Amy has a part time job for the most part with the OE Times .......But she has recently developed the pamphlet that will be made available on the web site for OESCA. The Regional Directors all put out a news letter to their members in their Region several times a year. I can say.....a Breed Club is only as good as its members and those who step up to the plate and help. I know in this Club we have some VERY good members and Breeders who do this. The Clubs business is sent out in the minutes and available on the OESCA Website as they are published. We as a Club or Board have no hidden agenda......in fact we are finalizing the By laws, Foundation development. If anyone has a question about the Clubs business......I am always available to answer questions that you may have. I do it all the time. If it is a sensitive matter....I will tell you that it is as some items can not go beyond the session it was held in. But 98 % of the business is transparent and there is no hidden agenda....maybe at times some items may be contested? But most of you will know about that as the airwaves fill fast depending on your friendships and points of view.

Now I know the topic here is about Negative Experiences with backyard Bred OES....... The AKC has the CHIC program that anyone can visit and review the testings and health testing with most breeds. Including the OES. It is very useful in searching for not only one dog but others in that litter. So you can see the testing results that has been done and submitted on this program. I know I use it for both of my breeds ....the Bouvier and the OES. The Bouvier Club is much more willing to submit information into this program. When a thinking about a breeding or selecting a Stud Dog? All I have to to is type in the dogs mane and I can see what littermates have been tested and what was the results. So I know just as much about the Stud dog in his health testing as I know about his Show Career. Using both his credentials (Show and Health) ......I can select the proper breeding for both the Dog and Bitch.

That said.........I noticed a comment was made about the President of the OESCA wont even follow the Health Suggestions? Anyone can go on line with OFA or CHIC and look up the kennel prefix BUGABOO or ROCHEUSES ( which is the kennel name I use for the Bouviers) and see what dogs and evaluations have been done on my dogs. As always....anyone who has concerns or questions about ANY of my dogs may contact me personally and I would be more than happy to talk to you. The one thing I find to be interesting in my bloodlines.....Is I can trace my most current dog all the way back to the Foundation Bitch , Ch. Bugaboos Just for me. "TANGO". Not all bloodlines are able to do this.

I can NOT change how others view or trust the OESCA CLUB........like all organizations......you have a majority who are good and some who are bad in any Club. I can tell you as the President of this Club, I don't run from things and I do address the interest of those in the breed. I may not always agree with you or the item you may feel strongly about........But I do protect and represent all.

Now...... for buying a puppy? Do your homework. Ask questions and DON'T take the word that the dogs are tested. Look at the certificates provided by the OFA or the certificates and see the evaluations. Ask about the parents......see the condition the dogs are in or the care of the parents coats and health. Are the puppies properly socialized? Are they properly exercise? Visit the breeders on numerous visits before buying a puppy. Don't just show up one day and say.....I want to buy a puppy! Spend time with the sire and dam. Are they trusting with kids or family members? Do they growl when approached? does the puppies run away when approached? Are the nails clipped? Does the Breeder provide the shot records and if so what shots and wormings has the puppy have? There is many components in buying a puppy or adopting an older dog.........don't be afraid to ask......research each Breeder. They may be on the Breeders list and they may not.........BUT be sure its the right puppy for you and IF you have questions? Can you reach the breeders for directions.

Share an experience......as most of you know? I own several Boarding/daycare/ training and grooming facilities. I had a gal who wanted an OES puppy....but felt the dollars I was asking was too expensive. So so bought an OES from a breeder out eats of us.$600.00 dollars. She loved that puppy. It grew....and then it developed health issues. It had real bad allergies. It scratched itself raw. She took it to the vet.....cost her several thousand dollars to attempt to cure. over several years.....the dogs could not be managed and had to be put down. Broke her heart. She came back and talked to me again......I asked her questions and she was so wrapped up in the price that she forgot about the health issues and testing. The sire and dam did NOT have anything done in the way of any tests. They were just reproducing OES to make money for them to live on. It was sad ....and when she came back to me and we talked ...she said I should have just bought a dog from you Doug. Today....she is a very good customer with one of my dogs I gave to her. It was an older bitch who didn't turn out as I wanted for showing and I knew she would be a good home and she is a VERY GOOD Grooming customer. So it turned out to be a win ....win situation for us both. BUT she had to learn the hard way about asking and buying from a reputable breeder. Next dog I ....I know she will buy from me and I will sell to her. She is the type of owner I want to have my dogs.

As Breeders and Owners of OES ......it is important that each of us try to find the good and the positive in this breed and with one another. The help educate and teach those who care about this bred to do better. It is easy to find fault these days with others, clubs and just life in general.......I elect to find the positive and the good in those who love my breeds as I do.

Doug Johnson

Doug,
You say:

Quote:

The Clubs business is sent out in the minutes and available on the OESCA Website as they are published. We as a Club or Board have no hidden agenda......

I just came from the OESCA website and I could not find the minutes. Can you provide a link?
Or are the minutes just open to members?

ChSheepdogs wrote:

This is a bunch of BS and you know it !
It's become a popularity club of if we don't like you, you cannot be in our exclusive club!
From listening to a bunch of lies from a jealous other member who thnks she is a know it all, (and I have had dealings with this person myself over the years to know things are not as stated by her) to the board not tabling the matter until contacting Amber to let her defend herself. Shame on the club.
I have thought back and yes, in the past some years ago this IS what was done...the applicant WAS given a chance to respond to someone's accusations.....and a letter sent after the decision made as to the boards decisions.
Sad. Sad. Sad. For the many good people that are and have tried to be in the club that were turned away or run out. No wonder the membership is decreasing and decreasing each year.
I used to have all my puppy people join OESCA, I quit that awhile ago. If i cannot endorse it as a credible club........
This is just very very sad.

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

I believe OESCA business should be kept within the Club. Can we just get back to the original topic? This has no place on a pet forum.

I don't think you can ask that OESCA business be kept within the club, but then also ask that people buy puppies from breeders that are on the OESCA referral lists. That would require that all potential puppy buyers be in the club too. So it creates a conundrum of sorts.

Baba wrote:

Parwaz wrote:

If you think you have issues in the US,Canada. Just come to the UK & its all messed up. Its all about cost too the Kennel club

David I have a OESD & don't belong to a Lab club but I do own a very old one. We have the same issues about OESD in the UK

I was going to ask about Amber's issue as well. I sent a e-mail to your club & I think it was shocking how she was treated. If you have a few bad apples in the barrel its going to leave a mark on the rest. I think someone has ruined your clubs Credibility and it will take a long time too get that back & most of you have turned a blind eye too this

I would like to chime in to reflect on the health subject within this thread.
Okay so breeders,OESCA members and some OES owners know that to view certain health tests results,all you have to do, is log onto the OESCA website and the OFFA.org.

But....if you would like to know if a dog's lineage has had any other health issues, where can this data, be found?
Also,breeders can have all of the known health testing done and the pedigree is clear....but poof just like that a health issue can happen, unfortunately.
I had been told by many, long time OES breeders....if there is a problem, then we all have that problem, because the gene pool is so small.
So why would a breeder want to hide a health issue if they truly care for the welfare of the breed and not only hide it but continue to breed,said dogs that may have produced a health issue.
I have yet to find the true answer to that question? Looking for responses, not to start any ugliness.
JMHO,
Robin

gumbo41 wrote:

So why would a breeder want to hide a health issue if they truly care for the welfare of the breed and not only hide it but continue to breed,said dogs that may have produced a health issue.

Good question Robin.....and in my opinion a breeder should never hide a health issue. Not to defend anyone who does not disclose health issues in their lines, but maybe they feel they will be judged or shunned, which is absolutely wrong. Or maybe they just don't care about the future of our breed....only breeders who do not share info know the reasoning behind it. It has happened to me. I was honest about Bella's Retinal Dysplasia and spayed her, and next thing you know it is being spread around by a few nasty breeders that I produce blind dogs, which is exactly what I prevented producing by never breeding Bella. No matter how people twist the truth I will continue to be forthright about all of my dogs in every way,

Breeders have to realize that if they truly care about the future of our breed they will be honest about what they are producing. And when a breeder discloses a health issue other breeders should be proud of that breeder and all work together to try to eliminate that problem from the breed by working together. I know I am dreaming here (all OES breeders working together) however it still is and always will be something I would love to see and be a part of. When you do all of the health testing you can things can still appear.....the best thing we can do is to continue health testing and remove dogs from our breeding programs who should be removed, whether it be their health or health issues they have produced, or any temperament that is not what it should be.

Hello Lori and P,

I am Sorry, I didn't get an email about Amber from you. Did you send it to me or to one of the other Secretaries in the Club?

Amber does have the right to attend the Annual meeting as all members and non members have ......who attend the National Specialty. ( I have seen many non-members at this function in past years) At that time, she can have her TWO OESCA MEMBERS present her name for membership at this meeting. These members can be those who first Sponsored her or can be others who believe she should become a Member of OESCA. Once her name has been presented ( That is a motion from the floor and seconded with these two members) her name will be submitted for membership and a discussion can take place . At this time, anyone can object and or argue fore. Once that has been finished. Her name is presented to the body and the Voting by the membership will take place. 75% of the membership must vote to accept her as a member. This takes the voting away from the Board and is done by the members of OESCA . This has been done successfully in the past with other members of this Club and who have been a productive part of it over the years. If anyone disagrees with the board's actions.....they also have their rights as members to petition with 30 names and present the petition to the Board. This procedure is in the current By laws. This has been done on several situations......... But they must be OESCA Members who sign the Petition as the names are verified by the Secretary.

As for the Minutes of the Club......Yes, They are for the membership only. But if you should have a questions about anything that is being addressed.....most Club members are able to respond or give you a person who can answer your Questions. I would be more than happy to answer ....if I know? If I don't I will give you the person who could. But they are only published in the Club OE TIMES and WEB for the members sections.

Some of these issues are being addressed in the revised By Laws that are currently being developed by the By Laws Committee. We as a Club need to be brought into a new age of communications and development. Our Webmaster has taken the step forward to change some of these things. The Club needs to also do the same ......but it takes some time for these things to happen.

I am only one man who has a GOAL for this Club to advance this breed into the future........as others have started before me. Barb Lamb had the insight to start many of these programs and she still is on the Board to see them through. But we are moving forward and we are accomplishing many things. look at the OE Times and the new sections on this. Meet the Mentors, What a Judge is looking for........and getting to know some of the membership. There is going to be new areas that we are looking into that will be used to expand our Website......Breeders section that is currently being worked on by the webmaster and our Breeders Committee Chair.

If anyone has something they feel is important that we have missed in this Club.....I would like to know. I am a Very Busy man with my dogs, family and not only obligations to this Club ......but others I am involved with. So I may not always be on this list. Most of you know who I am and If you don't. there are those who know how to reach me. Please let me know your thoughts and your opinions......I don't have to like them or agree........ but I will take ALL of them into consideration which is more than some people will do.

I hope I have answered your questions and given some thought for you to consider and understand about OESCA.

One other thing I wanted to add when looking at puppies....is to get references from the breeder.....NOT just one! But several. Most breeders have people who are very happy with their dogs and will be more than happy to acknowledge the breeders merit and concerns. Plus.....you can ask question about the breeder.

The breeders referral is still the best thing that the Club and the AKC has to obtain GOOD dogs and know you are dealing with those who hold the breed dear to their heart.

Robin.......

I just read your thread on the lineage subject. IT IS IMPORTANT that everyone who has an OES and does ANY type of testing to use the CHIC program. The CHIC program allows you to submit ALL testing results, So you can submit those who pass and those who fail. I know with the Bouviers.....I have seen a whole litter submitted and from that someone would be able to see that of the 6 littermates in that litter 5 of them passed their hips and the other one failed. Therefore.....as a breeder/ owner or purchaser..... you would know that the hips are strong in that litter. UNLESS all of the cleared dogs were FAIR hips. Then you would have 5 fair and one mild? That would show me that would NOT be a good choice for a STUD DOG.....so yes, This CHIC program can be used as an OPEN registry to say. Each Club sets the testing that they want to be acknowledged for......HIPS- ELBOWS-EYES- THYROID. So you can see here all of this data could be important IF EVERYONE.....Show, Pet or whom ever owners would test their dogs and submit the results for the betterment of our breed. YES.....You could see the information on the CHIC program unless there was something that they (CHIC) will not allow?

Most breeders do not want to hide health issues if they really care about their bloodlines and the future of their breeding program. Most breeders do or have run into health issues and have to take the steps to correct them. If you NEVER had any problems....chances are you haven't had any litters or been doing this long enough .Sometimes it means casting dog or Bitch out of a breeding program that may have health problems. I have had to do this....Beautiful, Champion Bitch..........I found out some information about the sire and was able to verify it and this bitch was spayed and placed. It was also DISCLOSED to the new owner and I back the Bitch.....luckily she lived a normal life without a problem. But.....as a Breeder, you have to make those tough decisions.....and move on.

IF EVERYONE.....would be willing and open to do this without using it against one another.......we could really make some improvements on this Breed. But there are a lot of NEGATIVE people out there who make doing this an impossible task. It is easier to focus on the bad situations.....some of these people LIVE for it! If each of you could focus on the positive .......we could make a lot of headway.....both for the show and pet dogs. I would like to ask ......HOW many of you who are pet owners and have an OES ? How many of you have had your PET ......hips x-rayed, Elbows x-rayed and the dogs eyes tested? And once that was done.....were they submitted for an OFA evaluation? Were their eyes tested and was that certified and documented by CHIC.....or did you not even do them because they are just a family pet? If each of you were really concerned about all the health issues......you would do it and you would submit those results to the CHIC program for the data on this breed ....so that we would know where this breed is really at? Doing testing on two puppies from a litter as they grow out of 8 and they pass all testing ......DOESN'T say they can't produce more health problems down the road. But it takes ALL of us to do this..........This is what the OESCA would like to see in its members and breeders......So who really is the bad guys here? The Breeders.......Owners.....??? Ask yourself what you can do to help these health issues become a reality and NOT something that gives both sides something to fight against. Be part of the solution and NOT the reason for the negativity. If we would do this....the back yard breeders would not even be part of this picture!

I few breeders are trying to sort this issue out. Breeding with other lines around the world, which have been lost in a certain area or just breeding from just certain lines. So I think a lot of the breeders know that they have made mistakes in the past & are trying to sort things out. The other issue is how many litters should a bitch have during a life time as a few breeders have good areas & look after there dogs but do they have too many litters. Do you class these people as back room breeders as they make a living out of this. Point I am trying too make is not just breeders are at fault it is the public as well. Remember you only have a gut feeling about the people who is going to buy your pup and if they have asked the right questions then you sell them. My issues is not the breeders that are good and the semi good. Its the Farms themselves or breeders who know they have issues with the dog who keep on breeding. They keep them in cages and nasty conditions

BUGABOO OES

Thing that I don't get is that US,Canada & other countries don't press the UK Kennel Club. They don't have DNA testing and other issues for breeding program. Just say I bred a litter and I am a member of the UK KC club. How do they know I am not breeding from diff parents as there is no testing but people think I am a member of the UK KC breeders club so I am honest. Do you ever get together with other countries clubs and work out these types of issues

I sent the e-mail to you web master to send it on. Your website don't let non members which is wrong as I am from the UK is good to know what is going on around the world with other OESD clubs and not pay to access part of your site

BUGABOO OES wrote:

I am only one man who has a GOAL for this Club to advance this breed into the future........as others have started before me. Barb Lamb had the insight to start many of these programs and she still is on the Board to see them through. But we are moving forward and we are accomplishing many things. look atn the OE Times and the new sections on this. Meet the Mentors, What a Judge is looking for........and getting to know some of the membership. There is going to be new areas that we are looking into that will be used to expand our Website......Breeders section that is currently being worked on by the webmaster and our Breeders Committee Chair.

Doug, I would still like to see you address why Amber of Blueshire OES was not considered worthy of just being a member of OESCA? Amber was not applying to get on the OESCA Breeder Referral list. She wanted to have access to all these information sources, OE Times etc. which are member only because she likes to be fully informed on all matters related to sheepdogs as the excellent sheepdog breeder she is. And I am sorry to state it again, the decision blows a huge gap in OESCA's credibility. Moreso because the ways you say the decision can be addressed (member vote at the nationals, petition) are not very useful when the decision itself is secret. Why don't you send an email to every OESCA member with reports on the decision, why it was made, AND information on Amber and BLUESHIRE OES so they can do their own research? Make their own judgements? Keeping a decision which is kept secret from the membership while claiming the membership has means to redress the board is a very weak claim.

I am sorry, this is akin to the composer's union refusing to give membership to Mozart, just because some board members want to play Salieri. That is pitiful, and OESCA is no longer a credible organization. An OESCA member, or a member of the public who is interested in or has sheepdogs, has no credible basis to trust the decision making process of OESCA.

I am 100% in what David has just posted.

Why can't diseases that have shown up in a litter, such as ,PRA,CA,autoimmune diseases, amongst others, be kept in a database, like the CHIC database,so that informed breeders could breed away from, in hopes to extradite these debilitating diseases?
Why, would this not be the wave of the future of our breed?

Robin

Doug,
You say that you have no hidden agenda and that your club is transparent, but yet it appears that there are 2 sets of rules. The Code of Ethics AND some other criteria that is not privy to non-members eyes (and probably non-executive members' eyes, if they exist at all). Non members can't see this other set of criteria nor can they see the minutes. I wouldn't want to join a club that has a secret, second set of rules
How would I ever know if I wanted to join the club if I can't ascertain what goes on in the inner circle (clique)? What kind of confidence does it inspire in potential new members when so many aspects of the club's actions are held in private? Where's your credibility when you say essentially that the club is an open book, except for X,Y, and Z, which you won't discuss outside of the inner circle?

Did Amber's membership decision ever get to the membership? Or was this a decision made by the inner circle? My guess is it never made it past the executive board. It seems there is a preliminary executive board vote before it can get to the membership. That's not really what you say in your above post but that's the way it appears. This is ANOTHER action that leads to more mistrust from people outside the board and certainly from people outside the club. How are you going to address that?

Do you even know how all of this looks from the outside? Do you even care?

You say I can ask questions about the meetings. How in the world would I ever know what questions to ask without seeing the minutes? And can I trust the member that you point me to? I can't see the minutes, so how would I ever know I was getting the truth?

From what I've seen and heard and read about the club, I cannot conscientiously recommend OESCA to anyone. There's too many questions about your operation, agenda, and goals. And the exectutive board is unwilling to address those questions AND become transparent.

It's too bad, because the breed really does need good, honest advocates looking out for it. What it doesn't need is a high school clique.

Hi All,
I'm new to this board. I couldn't sit back and read any longer without sharing my thoughts on this subject.

So glad to finally see the topic of the CHIC registry addressed or shall I say partially addressed. The CHIC registry is a great resource to look up
health clearances but how helpful can it really be when there are very very few OES who have a CHIC#. Why do a lot of breeders talk and talk about how important the CHIC# is but very few actually have them. Kind of difficult to look up lineage without this!!! I totally believe that in order to be bettering our wonderful breed we all need to be getting CHIC #'s before breeding.

I have had sheepdogs for 5 yrs and have been out showing for the past 4 yrs. I recently raised my first litter of OES puppies and both my bitch and the stud dog had their CHIC # before breeding. Being new to the breed I am totally blown away buy the standards the new people are held to while some of the long time breeders don't adhere to them. This doesn't and will never make any sense to me.

About the question already posted regarding owning a pet OES and if they are health tested or are they just family pets. I find this statement to be very offensive and appalling. First of all I don't view any of my dogs as JUST family pets, they are all PART of our family. And to answer your question YES my pet OES has been health tested and not for the purpose of breeding(as she is spayed) but as a prudent dog owner I go above and beyond to ensure the health of all my dogs(show dog or non-show dog).

If OESCA is truly concerned about all the health issues why aren't more breeders registering their dogs with the CHIC program?

It is really hard to focus on the positive rather than the negatives when the majority approach seems to be DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!!!!!!

This what a good OESD club does. 125 years old soon

http://www.theoesclub.co.uk/

Primary Ciliary Dyskinesia is a relatively new disease found amongst some OES (approx 15 - 20%).

There has been some DNA research done into this disease by Professor Anne Merveille in Belgium.

In Humans terms its called cystic fibrosis.

So why has this just been found out ?. Is it due to breeding or other issues

When I was searching for a puppy, many people said to look at the OESCA breeder referral list. Many of the people on the list had outdated webpages, never answered my emails, or didn't have any puppies. One person told me his "pet puppies" (no showing) STARTED at a whopping $1800! I know OES pups are expensive, but jeez! Another breeder, when I asked, said that their dogs weren't OFA certified, but the parents and grandparents were so it was "okay because they are confident in the health of their dogs".
Anyway, the OESCA list was not very useful to me, even though I considered breeders from around the country. Eevee came from a breeder who was not on the OESCA list, but her breeder was a wonderful woman who had her dogs tested and let me see the results for myself on the OFFA website, has always been there if I had any questions, and was more reasonable about the price than some, at $1200. I found her on a list on the AKC website instead.
So I do not think that the OESCA list is the best place to start. It looks nice at first because it has so many listings, but once you email most of them, you'll find that there aren't that many options. I think it would be better if breeders were only placed on the list while they are expecting a litter or at least plan on having one. They shouldn't be on the list when they aren't breeding. I also think that all breeders who are put on that list should be checked for testing and whatnot.
I think that instead of sending everyone straight to the OESCA list like we should just assume that because they're part of the OESCA they have healthy puppies, we should be reinforcing that it is VERY important to ask every breeder lots of questions! The list of questions on the untilyoufindme site was super helpful to me.

One more thing, I think what happened to Amber is just awful and unfair. To be called unfit for OESCA membership because she did everything she could to save a puppy's life is ridiculous, in my opinion. I read through all the posts myself, she never asked for money, it was offered by the kind people here.

Ya know what's even funnier about Amber's situation? In the end, they denied her the abaility to get a newsletter. That's really it.
She wasn't looking to get on the breeder list.

The board must feel awfully powerful denying someone a newsletter. :roll:

It really does come across as sophomoric and immature.

snazzierella wrote:

Hi Jade, I had you very much in mind when writing my posts, because I remember very clearly your first posts when you were looking at a breeder just 2 months ago or so. The breeder you were asking about were an obvious (to the knowledgeable) backyard breeder. You got some good information warning you away from that BYB, and you also got the throwaway line "look at the OESCA referral list". I assumed you found an OESCA breeder, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, there ARE great breeders on that list. But not long after you got your puppy, I was discovering the truth about the sad state of affairs of OESCA. I started feeling bad for your sake, you came on here looking for a puppy, and you were given some bad advice. And I was hoping I wasn't making you feel bad about your puppy choice (which I assumed was an OESCA-referred one). I'm very glad to see you listened to the best advice you were given, it takes more work, but none of these puppies are cheap, and even if they were, you're not looking for a good price on a toaster, you're looking for a living companion who will become a very loved part of your family, hopefully for a long time.

I'll take a moment here to point out, that unlike some of those OESCA-referred breeders you talked to, Amber does the testing (including the ones which should be done annually) on EVERY dog she has ever bred or used a stud, and if you ask her about any of them, she will whip out the documents and certificates and show you, without hesitation. I have witnessed this, I have seen those documents. She is well organized and has it at her fingertips.

ANY breeder, like a couple of those OESCA-referred breeders :roll:

who you talked to just a couple of months ago while looking for a puppy regardless of the pedigree of their lines, who "skips" a generation for testing in their breeding lines because the "grandparents were good" is NO BETTER THAN A CRUMMY BACKYARD BREEDER!!!!!! That is just hubris, ignorant arrogance ignoring the complicated science of genetics in complicated biological animals. :evil:

It was never my intention to attack OESCA. I never had a bad thought or opinion about OESCA 2-3 months ago. Doug, I sincerely hope OESCA uses this to improve its practices, to clean house, to enforce or verify its vaunted code of ethics etc are truly followed. As I've said previously, this beloved breed, Old English Sheepdogs, the most loving beautiful gentle clowns and hard working dogs, has an uncertain future. Despite being a famous breed, its population is small, its gene pool is at risk. OES DO need good organizations who truly, genuinely adhere to their goals and stated missions. I would love OESCA to become that.

Otherwise, most of the best advocates and breeders for OES in North America will end up outside OESCA, which seems to be the current direction.
:tea:

Well said David.

snazzierella wrote:

I had the same experience when searching for a puppy, and also ended up getting a puppy from a breeder not on the list. I have had a good experience with the breeder I chose, LOVE my Millie and wouldn't trade her for anything.

However, I have had a wonderful experience with a breeder who is on the OESCA breeder referral list. I contacted her when looking for a puppy, and she did not have a litter (and still hasn't in the year and a half since I was looking for a puppy) but she has taken me under her wing and has been a great mentor to me. She has invited me into her home for grooming lessons (free of charge) and she checks in with me regularly to see how Millie and I are doing. All of this from a breeder I have never purchased a puppy from. She shows her beautiful OES and has champion dogs, does all of the recommended health testing and more. I hope that when she has a litter I will be able to have one of her
lovely dogs join my family.

There are great breeders on that list, but you need to do your homework.

Just WOW.....I had a minute to look at the site and notoced a lot of new posts on this subject, I thought maybe another bad BYB reared its ugley head. I am fairly shocked, more than fairly lets say greatly shocked. I don't know Doug Johnson very well but know he is a kind and generous man. I ws at a speciality and someone told him they had a rescue dog that needed help being groomed. He offered to take time from his dogs and offered to help. How do I know this?? that dog was my Guinness. When I was at westminster I was reintroduced to him and chatted a bit about not having show OES but had rescues and did rescue. He shook my hand and thanked me for doing what I did for the breed. Someone has things really wrong here. As for Amber and I am NOT an OSECA member and I am not in all this mucky muck but if a breeder does not have the money to pay for a dog they have bred surgeries, how does one pay for all the testing and things that go into breeding healthy puppies???. I wondered when this all went down. I do not know the criteria for being on the list but some things are getting well out of hand. Many decisions for things are kept behind closed doors. Example If someone is turned down to adopt because their yard shows signs of having tied a dog out and a reference states the last dog was tied out for hours on end etc .It is not told because a big bru ha ha will happen like this thread My stars if one knew the reason one was declined think of what this thread would look like!!!!!

4dognight wrote:

Cindy - With Abby it was strictly timing. Should I have accepted donations that I did not ask for....maybe not, but then I would have had no choice but to have her put down. I can't help the timing and the great expense her surgery was going to cost. I love all life, so when the opportunity came to save her through everyones' genersity, which I did not ask for, I could not look her in the eyes and deny her the chance of life. Was it wrong....some could argue either way but whats done is done. Abby was given to the vet tech at Guelph University and she continues to grow and thrive. There is no other hidden reasons...I have nothing to hide. And as for your query about how do I have money to do health clearances on my dogs......just check the OFA, CERF, CHIC and OVC websites and you will find every single one of my dogs listed there. My husband is a very hardworking man and it was not our fault he was laid off from his job when this all went down.

And I have never said anything bad about Doug Johnson.....as a matter of fact he was very helpful in telling me what was going on and did tell me he personally did not think there was anything wrong with what happened with Abby and that he was on my side so I hope nobody gets that info confused.

Not sure what you are implying here Cindy or if you know something I don't...........I have absolutely nothing to hide. Everything to do with me and my dogs is an open book.

Im not one to get involved with this kind of drama and BS but I will say that if I ever could get a sheepie from Amber I would no problem. I have never met HER but have met Virginia, Mady, and Gracie and they are 3 of the most beautiful well behaved dogs I have ever seen. Yes A LOT of that goes to Kim and David but it also goes back to a great breeder.

As for me though... Ill stick with my rescue, seems to be less BS going that route. :sidestep:

4dognight wrote:

Sorry Cindy, bottom line for me: MANY of us CHOSE to offer our OWN money to help make the decision to save Abby's life easy for Amber. This was a sweet sparkling young puppy who had a non-genetic, non-chronic mechanical problem that fixed once, should allow her a full, healthy, long life. SOME OESCA breeders (and posters on this forum) think Amber should have killed this puppy. SOME OESCA breeders (and posters on this forum) WOULD HAVE killed Abby. And you as a RESCUE DARE question Amber's motives? HOLY %#$!!!!!!!!

It just reminds me to be extremely careful what "rescues" I will support in the future.

Maybe 60 years ago, "top" breeders in the dog world would put the 6 pups out of 8 that are not show quality in a bag and drown them. Maybe that was the norm 60 years ago. Today, most dog owners would be horrified by that attitude, at best, they would consider them horrible breeders, at worst, they'd consider them deserving of felony charges. I'm astonished that this attitude still persists among some breeders and some who claim to love dogs.

These posts have never been about attacking Doug Johnson as a breeder or a person, it is about revealing some indefensible decision-making at the OESCA board level, which throws the whole organization's practices into question. If Doug Johnson once shook your hand and gave Guinness a pat on the head. Great. That has nothing to do with the questions raised.

I WANT OESCA to be a successful organization that is really working to make my favourite breed of dogs thrive and have a secure healthy future!

Cindy,
First off, I don't think anyone said anything bad about Doug. He probably is the person you describe. I don't know. I don't know him.
We were all commenting on the club and how it's run. That's where the problems lie. Maybe Doug does not have the power to change things the way the by-laws are written; I don't know.

Secondly, like Amber said, the timing on Abby's situation could not have been worse. Amber seems to have always gone above & beyond with regards to testing. Just ask David and Kim. They've seen all the certifications.

Thirdly, you say that you don't know what the criteria is for getting on the list. You know what? Nobody does! Because as Marilyn has stated, there's more to becoming a member than the Code of Ethics. Don't you find it strange that when asked for this second set of criteria, I could not get an answer?
I'll go out on a limb and bet that there is no second set of criteria. It's just the board sitting around talking about the prospective member and approving or rejecting their application based on SUBJECTIVE information (ie; if ONE person has a bug up their butt about the prospective member, that's it! He or she is done). Is that the way you want OESCA to be run? I know I don't want it run that way.
When a club is run like that, with no rhyme or reason to their decisions, they lose all their credibilty. It becomes very hard to get new members when they don't trust the board or don't believe the board is doing what's in the best interest of the breed or the members.

Lastly, we're not talking about an adoption. We're taling about a person that just wanted a membership so she could get the newsletter. Essentially, the board has ruled her not worthy of getting a newsletter. C'mon!! Can't you see the issue with that?!?!
Amber wasn't looking to get on the breeder referral list. She just wanted to be a member so as to get some crummy newsletter that's probably not worth the paper it's printed on.

Cindy- You can't always judge a book by its cover. Sometimes you have to dive into it and read it to really find out what it is all
about. There are always three sides to every story and unless you have all the facts you shouldn't rush to judgement.

Where Amber is concerned it was a lose-lose situation for her. If she saves little Abby's life she is wrong and if she would have
let her die than she would have still been wrong. Because of all the wonderful people on this board Amber was able to chose LIFE
for Abby. With all personnel feelings aside the bottom line is Abby got a chance at life and is happy and thriving with her new family.

We have been told to focus on the positives, well this is my positive!!!

Pet person, Show person, breeder, or non-breeder it makes no difference to me, but as a dog LOVER I would always chose LIFE.

Royal Bum's wrote:

Pet person, Show person, breeder, or non-breeder it makes no difference to me, but as a dog LOVER I would always chose LIFE.

Amen!

Amber should be praised for what she did, not chastised.

Well I did not know about Doug but the whole thing about amber was a disgrace & he might be a decent fellow but he is at the top of the food chain in the organization & so the buck stops at him. He need too sort out the house first & there are things, which they need to improve to come up too speed in the modern world. You will get back biting and conflicts between breeders as some of them cannot see past the end of there nose. Well I am new too the breed & only 10 months but I have some many ideas about breeding & too get things moving again. David was say its a dying breed & my answer too that is why. Its a double edge sword. You are dammed if you breed too many litters & dammed in you don't. So new people like myself who would love too breed so I can improve the line & get better dog/bitches out there. But another thing is the OESD has improved & getting larger in eastern Europe & Greece. So where we are going down in certain areas but other area's are getting better. Sop how many of you on this site could say that you can make a difference ( Holding your hand on your heart ). We all can do lip service but what counts is taking action. If I had to buy a puppy to breed with one of my first stops would be amber & a few others on this site who show and breed.

Royal Bum's wrote:

Where Amber is concerned it was a lose-lose situation for her. If she saves little Abby's life she is wrong and if she would have
let her die than she would have still been wrong.

wow- I never thought of it this way, but you are SO right! No matter what Amber did, she's have been criticized and ostracized. I mean, I'd have never thought her choosing to help the puppy Abby would have resulted in so many negative actions, but I'd have thought letting it die surely would have meant lots of people thinking badly of her. Poor Amber; she was never going to win this one, and why? Because she had the misfortune of having a lovely little puppy born with a health issue, and because she was a member of a caring community that decided to step in a make a difference.

Well, Amber was the winner in this situation.
Those that denigrate her are the losers. Those who chose to NOT challenge the "denigraters" (new word

) are losers.

You are so right Mark!!

Amber and Abby are the winners!!!! Can't some see that this was never about Amber, but more importantly about the life of LITTLE PUPPY ABBY!!!!!!!

Darth Snuggle wrote:

Royal Bum's wrote:

Where Amber is concerned it was a lose-lose situation for her. If she saves little Abby's life she is wrong and if she would have
let her die than she would have still been wrong.

You are exactly right--I had not thought of it this way either.

In my opinion--I think that the 'Abby' situation was 'used' as a reason to reject Amber. The situation with little Abby was one--that there was no question that with the surgery (if the surgery was successful) she would have a normal life. THAT was the reason so many chose to make a difference for that innocent little life.

Life is going to happen to everyone every day--sometimes you get thrown a curve on the journey--other times you are blessed and in a position to help someone else.

Amber's point that timing was an issue is a valid point for the choices she made as a human being not necessarily a breeder. Out of love for an animal and a willingness to 'make a difference' for ONE--many on this forum OFFERED support--both financially and with words of encouragement. Amber never asked for either--and MOST of the time it is hard for people to RECEIVE--she did so with grace and dignity.

If THAT is the reason she was denied acceptance in the OESCA--then that is sad indeed.

Where unity is necessary for a common good--a few will always choose to divide.
It is apparent that unity is necessary to make sure that this incredible breed survives for the ages. It appears that Amber is doing her part to make sure that happens.

It can be a beautiful thing when people with a common vision can come together with mutual respect--and work toward a common outcome. Mutual respect can only be accomplished by big thinkers and secure individuals--never a group of small minded individuals with petty agendas.

It is a FACT--that when you are 'out in front' and do what you do with a consistent level of EXCELLENCE--you will get 'arrows in your butt'!

I wrote in this thread in hopes of hearing different ideas to find a way for breeders to come together and share their health issues, within breeding.
I have heard about deafness,autoimmune,CA,PRA and myself,experienced hemophilia.
Talk about heartbreak,would never want anyone to watch a helpless puppy die, because his blood does not clot.
What is it going to take for the Old English Sheepdog world to come together and get along and do "RIGHT" by this wonderful breed, we all adore.
My wish is for the people who adore this breed to adopt the bobtails, temperament. Geesh!
I don't get it,this breeds temperament is happy go lucky,clownish and loving.Why not adopt all that the breed stands for...people.Let's leave this breed in better shape than the generation before us.While we are at it leave "THE"club in better shape than the generation before us.
If that puppy was a human baby, that everyone here so graciously gave their hard earned money to save,then I guess that would of been the appropriate action.You tell me what is the difference.Most people love their dog like their own child...right.
It was all about saving a living, breathing creature.Have you never been down on your luck,c'mon people,unless your family left you a family fortune, I would think all of us at some time or another, have experienced unfortunate mishaps.Heck my brother-in-law,50ish, lost his job a year ago,cannot find another,we had to pay his electric bill yesterday.Do you find something wrong with that?
You could also think of the money that was raised as donating to a rescue.I also know that Amber has let her puppies go to homes before they are totally paid for.Sorry, if I am telling a truth to the public but it needs to be said.She trust people who give her puppies a wonderful home.I do not know of any breeder who would do such a thing.
OESCA....I applied (10) years ago.I was so excited and couldn't wait to belong to "THE" club.
The nice person who wanted to sponsor me, because she had faith in me could not find another OESCA member to sponsor me. I was told, because you do not show, I could not find another sponsor.So my app did not get past the nice lady who was willing to sponsor me.I wonder, 10 years later, if I would get the same response?
What a shame,a lost opportunity to mentor someone who was so eager to learn.

Robin

Cindy, I'm going to tell you this, Of all of the breeder's i know, and have had dealings with, Amber is the ONLY one that i know and have known that is 100% honest in every aspect of breeding. What Amber has to say about everything being an open book is 100% true. Amber has the most integrity when it comes to breed and her all aspects of showing and her family.

I CAN tell you this that Amber has done a remarkable job, plans her breedings carefully, treats all of her puppy owners with respect and fairness. I know she has NEVER bred a dysplastic dog, unlike others, who have openly told a number of people they did.

As for having things kept behind closed door, this whole thing was a debacle the way it was handled since she first applied. Everyone should have the right to have their side of any dispute told to all involved in voting before any decisions on something made. Even if it were only to the board members who were to have been voting she should have had that right.

Instead , there are people jealous of her success that find it sooooo important to try to bring her down. How very sad that, these people should lower themselves to that level to make themselves look so important (in their own eyes).

Amber never once came on this list asking for money for that puppies surgery. Anyone with a brain can go look at the thread. She was looking for moral support in having to make a decision. Since you've never been a breeder, how do you know how YOU would have reacted in such a decision? I have labored with a bitch thru hours and had to go have a section at the end for one last puppy. Then after being up all night with a new litter of 9, realize that there was something wrong with that puppy that the vet, and tech and myself all missed and have to take it in to be euthanized. In the length of time i've been breeding not once have i ever made a profit or even broke even on a litter. Thankfully for that puppy, people on this list came to that puppies aid. It is never easy as a breeder to have to make a decision especially after you have sat up with a puppy and become attached.

Not everyone has alot of 'backup' money, especially in this day and age. You PLAN ahead and save for doing hip, eye, thyroid tests. You know approximately when they have to be done by and can plan ahead. Having an emergency is just that an 'emergency' and they are not cheap. I know this myself from a)my Borzoi years ago, when he bloated and torsion'd and they wanted 3000.00 on a Saturday to do his surgery. We didn't have it so he was put down. or b) when Rosie bloated & torsioned on us the night I was packing for Westminster to leave the next am. Fortunately CSU wasn't a money hungry business and they let us pay them out. or c) like 2 days ago when Peeper's decided she didn't want any unhappiness and went after the 2 doing noisey fussing....... broke her canine lower tooth off and now i have to pay to have the root dug out next week. I have had to pawn and sell things in order to get money to pay for items with my animals at times when things have happend. Am I happy about this? No, but one does what they have to, (especially since Mr. Black thinks he is above the law and thinks he can do what he wants instead of what the court ordered him to).

I will also tell anyone that I will and have referred people that call me for a puppy to Amber before i will refer them to anyone else especially around here in Colorado.

gumbo41 wrote:

OESCA....I applied (10) years ago.I was so excited and couldn't wait to belong to "THE" club.
The nice person who wanted to sponsor me, because she had faith in me could not find another OESCA member to sponsor me. I was told, because you do not show, I could not find another sponsor.So my app did not get past the nice lady who was willing to sponsor me.I wonder, 10 years later, if I would get the same response?
What a shame,a lost opportunity to mentor someone who was so eager to learn.

Robin

This right here illustrates just ONE major problem with the club.

Ok I will hate myself in the morning for getting involved again. BUT what I said had nothing to do with me doing rescue.....I was just stating that Doug is an upstanding person. I only mentioned the example of rescue applications because that is what I am familar with .... Trying to possible explain why amber did not get approved How would I know??? This is so out of my world. I have no issues with people who wanted to donate to save a puppies life, doing so. I myself have a dog in need and have spent tons of money and will find a way to do so again when he needs surgery. A loan, care credit or as I did before relieve myself of my retirement funds. That is not the point I was merely saying maybe that is the reason she was denied membership. It was so public on the forum I felt others may know. I did not aim to be blasted nor did I blast her for what she did. Any one can decide what rescues they support or what breeders thay support .Makes no difference to me I have done rescue for over 40 years and I suppose I will continue to do so. My intentions were to state what I know about a very nice man who happens to breed two great breeds . I don't know amber or her dogs or many of the breeders that breed dogs All my dogs have been rescues for many years and yes I have gotten two dogs (not OES:O)from good breeders. I have no problem with folks going to a good breeder. I had done so 30 years ago. This thread has turned very hateful and it is not what the forum is meant to be. I for one ...am not that important that anyone would want to "bring me down" I stay busy with my life and the dogs and people who are involved .

I don't think anyone would want to bring you down cindy & you would be one of the people who I would love too meet as same as amber. Hers is due to her showing & other things to do with OESD & yours is you do such a wonderful in Rescue also you have a Lab & sheepie. Its good to debate about things and I am one of the worst as they used to call me Trotsky at my last work place in a good sort of way. I don't think you are getting involved but you met someone who help you out,which was good of him & people don't have issues with him as a person but the system he controls & looks after & he might have his hands tied. So don't beat yourself up & I would say everyone thinks you do a wonderful job & a great person

Cindy,
I'm sorry if it came across like we were attacking you. It wasn't our intention.
You do fantastic work with your rescue and several breeds are better off because of your hard work.

What we are trying to do, however, is illustrate the deficiencies within the club.
An organization cannot be made better without illuminating it's downfalls.

We need a club that WORKS for ALL Old English Sheepdog owners, breeders, and rescuers, not just a select few.

So...
Is there any plan to again try to become an OESCA member and how might we help? The breed club needs quality people... quality people need to have access to the information OESCA can offer... the club becomes stronger/better adding knowledgeable, caring, upfront and honest breeders. It can also benefit from responsible pet/companion owners too.

Did you know I'm an OESCA member?

Unfortunately, I haven't actively done anything so I'm probably a diappointment. I've had to focus on Bumble who's required a lot of care and research so haven't had much time or energy to focus on what I'm passionate about and that's OES pet/companion owners. When buying a puppy, I've done it the wrong way in the past... but I've done it right in the past too yet still not ended up with what I sought. Breeders are not God and some things, despite best efforts, still go wrong. It's all about what happens after that.

We need to help each other if we love this breed... when it becomes us and them, we all loose. We all need to be striving to do better. I've heard stories about the politics... it happens in rescue too... it makes people throw up their hands and walk away which is understandable but very unfortunate in the long run.

Would Amber have been eagerly welcomed had she quietly euthanized a "defective" puppy? I don't have that answer but I suspect so. How many breeders have euthanized puppies and just kept it quiet and how does that make them better? I donated to Abby's care... it was not asked for. I see worth/value in dogs that some people would too quickly cull. This dog is one of those puppies... she'll be 8 this year... http://oesusa.com/Kaytee-052612.jpg Sometimes you just HAVE to let them go... it's kindest. But when there's an option, from a breeder's standpoint, it's must surely be EASIER to simply euthanize an Abby and mourn the loss than expend all the energy required to fight for an Abby's life and still deal with the rest of the litter.

I have referred people to Amber as a quality breeder and will continue to do so. Amber and I aren't friends or anything... I did speak with her once on the phone when I was searching for my future Bumble and she was very upfront about her dogs. At that time, I had no idea what questions I should be asking. We corresponded a couple years later when I was putting together the "Things To Consider" page for puppy buyers... she is passionate about the breed, she cares about health and responsible ownership. http://www.oesocc.com/choosingabreeder.html Read the dialog back and forth on OES.org and you'll see she's been so very supportive of her puppy parents and has helped educate the general public. She has a lot to offer this beloved breed of ours... please don't condemn her for accepting this community's offer to save that puppy. I feel we'll all be bypassing all the good she has to offer.

I hope she may yet become a fellow member... if this is what she still wants.

Jaci wrote.......
{{{ We need to help each other if we love this breed... when it becomes us and them, we all loose. We all need to be striving to do better. I've heard stories about the politics... it happens in rescue too... it makes people throw up their hands and walk away which is understandable but very unfortunate in the long run.}}}
:clappurple:

I whole heartily agree Jaci.
Hugs to Bumble,Kaytee,Panda & Co.

Robin

ali

No I am not a breeder but I have been up all night with a pregnant rescue dog and have whelped rescue puppies so I have had to make decisions,I have been involved in terribly emaciated momma dogs that have given their all to save their puppiesand could not sustain herself any more no matter what was done.The dogs I am involved with did not have all the care that the dogs you breed have , no food no water and no vet care. Have you had to deal with that???Or a whole litter of puppies from a shelter that broke out with parvo and were clinging to life because people are just stupid and do not spay /neuter their dogs??? Not as easy as one might think.....Lets not throw stones. Just because I don't breed dosen't mean I don't have feelings for a puppy I have housed many many dogs and have spent thousands of $$ of my own money to help save a dog They may not Be OES but they deserve a chance to live. I made no reference as to if what was done was wrong. I had a thought. If someone cannot pay for a surgery maybe they cannot afford to pay for immunizations etc I am not knocking her as a breeder just looking at facts. I know how costly it is to raise a litter of puppies. I have no clue as to what any of the criteria is for OESCA and being a person with some common sense (well I now see that I should have kept off this thread) that there may be more to it than anyone sees. Once something is posted on the internet anyone can view it. I thought maybe the looong thread about abby may have been seen. So DO NOT JUDGE ME I did not judge any one. I am done with this thread because it has really gotten out of hand.

cindy

cindy

Hello.

This discussion has been wonderful. Great job everyone. Please remember let's talk about ideas and not make this personal.

That said, I'm going to get personal for a moment. Although I've met Doug only very briefly, I've personally seen his actions towards others. His reputation is stellar and I've never heard from anyone that he wasn't a man of his word. If he says he is working on the issues, I take him at his word, believe him and give him the luxury of time to accomplish his goals. I suggest and implore that others do the same.

I don't know the details of what happened with Amber's application. I don't know who or how many members were there to vote on her application. I don't know the politics of the organization. I don't know who sponsored Amber and I don't know their political acumen, or if someone they don't get along with was there. I don't know the reasoning for the decision. I don't know the dynamics of what was happening at the time in that location.

An organization has it rules and processes and has the right to decide who gets to be a member. Sometimes rules and processes and groupthink can get in the way of making good decisions. If Amber's acceptance of a helping hand had anything to do with the decision then I disagree with that reasoning. If there was another reason or reasons then I am unaware of them.

But attacking and denigrating the organization as a whole for a decision on membership is just way over-the-top in my opinion.

Doug has outlined a wonderful process for what amounts to "reconsideration". An opportunity for Amber's supporters who are OESCA members to support her again, re-sponsor her and support her through the application process. I strongly urge Amber and her friends in OESCA to consider that as an option.

Attempting to support Amber by attacking OESCA as a whole is counter productive and is a mistake in judgement in my opinion.

Ron wrote:

Attempting to support Amber by attacking OESCA as a whole is counter productive and is a mistake in judgement in my opinion.

I have not tried to support Amber by attacking OESCA. Nor have I once attacked Doug personally (and in fact, Amber made clear Doug IS on her side in all this). I am questioning the credibility of OESCA based on that example coupled with holes in its breeder-referral list (which should not have holes). And I also distrust a reconsideration process which depends on people being knowledgeable about something which is being kept secret from them.

I don't expect perfection from any organization or person or certainly myself (we're all human after all, not sheepdogs :wink:

). But in my opinion, OESCA's apparent flaws are more serious than the average blemishes you'd expect on anything.

Oh well, I will continue to not be a member of OESCA, and they will continue to receive zero financial support from me. And I will continue to add a different view when someone comes around asking how to find a good breeder.

There should be a word limit I'm allowed to use when posting. :roll:

Ron wrote:

Doug has outlined a wonderful process for what amounts to "reconsideration". An opportunity for Amber's supporters who are OESCA members to support her again, re-sponsor her and support her through the application process. I strongly urge Amber and her friends in OESCA to consider that as an option.

Exactly. Let's focus on supporting a breeder that we approve of. Doug outlined an option that's still available...

BUGABOO OES wrote:

If anyone disagrees with the board's actions.....they also have their rights as members to petition with 30 names and present the petition to the Board. This procedure is in the current By laws. This has been done on several situations......... But they must be OESCA Members who sign the Petition as the names are verified by the Secretary.

At this moment, it is what it is. Let's move along and try to productively make a change.

Baba wrote:

I am questioning the credibility of OESCA based on that example coupled with holes in its breeder-referral list (which should not have holes). And I also distrust a reconsideration process which depends on people being knowledgeable about something which is being kept secret from them.

I don't expect perfection from any organization or person or certainly myself (we're all human after all, not sheepdogs :wink:

). But in my opinion, OESCA's apparent flaws are more serious than the average blemishes you'd expect on anything.

Making blanket statements about an organization's "credibility" or that the organization as a whole is seriously flawed based on holes in it's breeder referral list and a membership approval issue seems to be a bit of overkill to me. A more finely tuned statement about those areas would be appropriate. Again, just in my opinion.

Doug is an amazing guy. Most people would get their hackles up, become defensive and nothing would ever be solved when confronted with such a blanket condemnation. I guess that's why he gets paid the big bucks.

As far as being kept in the dark about things, if you take a moment to reflect I think you would find many times that you are kept in the dark by organizations about the reasoning and manner of decisions that affect your life in very major ways.

6Girls wrote:

BUGABOO OES wrote:

At this moment, it is what it is. Let's move along and try to productively make a change.

Is that even required at this point? Once denied membership is a further application forbidden?
I'm not a member of OESCA so I have no experience in this area, but Doug's words seemed to indication a simple re-applying and re-voting for membership might suffice rather than a grievance petition of some sort.

Or were you talking about moving forward in other ways in addition to re-application? sigh, my sentences are getting more complicated.

Thank-you Jaci........I have decided to pursue the trying to get 30 OESCA members' to support me and petition the decision regarding my application to the Board. I have no idea who is and who is not an OESCA member on this Board, so if anyone would like to sign the petition let me know.

And on Rons note......I am not attacking OESCA......I am the Secretary of the Old English Sheepdog & Owners Club of Canada and I know the hard work involved, and the hours of unpaid personal time it requires. At most times it is a thankless job but we do it for the love of our breed. Our Canadian Clubs current Code of Ethics and By-Laws are so outdated and desperately need to be re-done. We are working on it and Rhonda Bailey and I worked many hours drafting a new Code of Ethics which is now before the Board for discussion. No organization is perfect but what counts is realizing the shortcomings and trying to improve on them. I was simply understandably upset that I was not able to be heard, and others' twisted stories and outright lies were able to influence Board members that I do not even know. And then to not be able to present the truth....that is what was frustrating for me.

Ron wrote:

6Girls wrote:

BUGABOO OES wrote:

At this moment, it is what it is. Let's move along and try to productively make a change.

I cannot re-apply in the same manner as I did previously. To what I understand if 30 OESCA members petition the decision then the Board can re-vote? Doug, maybe you can clear that up for me?

BUGABOO OES wrote:

Amber does have the right to attend the Annual meeting as all members and non members have ......who attend the National Specialty. ( I have seen many non-members at this function in past years) At that time, she can have her TWO OESCA MEMBERS present her name for membership at this meeting. These members can be those who first Sponsored her or can be others who believe she should become a Member of OESCA. Once her name has been presented ( That is a motion from the floor and seconded with these two members) her name will be submitted for membership and a discussion can take place . At this time, anyone can object and or argue fore. Once that has been finished. Her name is presented to the body and the Voting by the membership will take place. 75% of the membership must vote to accept her as a member. This takes the voting away from the Board and is done by the members of OESCA . This has been done successfully in the past with other members of this Club and who have been a productive part of it over the years. If anyone disagrees with the board's actions.....they also have their rights as members to petition with 30 names and present the petition to the Board. This procedure is in the current By laws. This has been done on several situations......... But they must be OESCA Members who sign the Petition as the names are verified by the Secretary.

The way I read this is he is saying that both options are open. I don't know if that's accurate, or if I'm reading it incorrectly, but it does seem to me he's being specific and talking about this situation.

I am also heartened that he mentioned that they then went on to be productive members!

The second option would require either my sponsors or someone from the floor to bring me up for membership approval. Then I would need 75% of the memberships vote, which is more of a requirement than applying for the first time when it only needs a majority Board Member approval.

Ron wrote:

sigh, my sentences are getting more complicated.

You need a word limit too.

Just drop Doug a quick note to ask about that 30 member option, to see if
it's still available to you. He'll be able to guide you in the right direction.

Ron,
You're right. When you start parsing it, it becomes confusing. What paths does she have available? If there are multiple paths in Doug's post, where does one end & the next begin? What paths totally remove the board from the decision (because I would bet that if it has to go thru the board in any way, shape, or form, the application will be denied)?

On the flip side, Doug makes references like "all members have that right" or "members have done that in the past". What if you're not a member?

Ron wrote....
{{{That said, I'm going to get personal for a moment. Although I've met Doug only very briefly, I've personally seen his actions towards others. His reputation is stellar and I've never heard from anyone that he wasn't a man of his word. If he says he is working on the issues, I take him at his word, believe him and give him the luxury of time to accomplish his goals. I suggest and implore that others do the same.}}}

Can you please give some details into what makes you write this statement.
I make decisions with facts as I am sure most people do.So excuse me if I want facts to back up these statements.
Thank you,
Robin

gumbo41 wrote:

What, you can't just take my opinion of the man and make it your own?

Here is all I wrote that would "need" details:

Quote:

Although I've met Doug only very briefly, I've personally seen his actions towards others.

I met him at Westminster and I saw how he took time out of his own grooming to help a new competitor groom her dog.

Quote:

His reputation is stellar

I've read great things about him, right here on this forum within the last couple of months.

Quote:

I've never heard from anyone that he wasn't a man of his word

I haven't.

He's built up a lot of goodwill with lots of folks.

Cindy, I was not attacking you and am sorry if you took it that way. I have the utmost respect for Rescue ..... I do know what a lot of you go thru and know it isn't an easy job.

I have been up with an ill dog for past whole night along with the weather here... Tornadoes and spectacular Ligh shows last night while walking ill pup So was not able to tell you this.

Thank you Ron for graciously sharing your first hand experience with us.
My first and foremost goal has been about health and temperament.
I am not cut out to show,heck I remember my wedding day,I was so frazzled, because I knew walking down that aisle, everyone's eyes would be on me.That is just me and always will be.
So experiencing deafness and hemophilia within breeding my goal is focused on bettering the breed in hopes of ridding the breed of debilitating diseases, at all costs.
To me, to do this, breeders have to be honest and share,so that better choices are made.
I do not understand for the life of me,why when a dog is conflicted with a debilitating disease this information cannot be shared along with the pedigrees involved.
You would think people would want to share this information,not condemn the breeder,not hide it,sweep it under the rug or best yet, ignore it,like it didn't happen and then the whispering begins and rumors start flying.
This is why I am writing in this thread first and foremost,so that the finger pointing could cease and find a way to come together for the sake of the breed.
It is so frustrating to have knowledge of kennels that has produced diseases and the kennels have turned a blind eye to it,but yet expect other breeders to abide by rules.Practice what you preach, comes to mind.
Where is the integrity of these breeders and why are they not held accountable of their own actions? Knowledge is powerful...right?
JMHO,
Robin

I don't know if you have anyone in particular in mind (and I really don't wanna know), but in general I agree with you. In a perfect Sheepie world breeders would be one big family, supportive of one another, grieving together if/when something horrible happens.

For some reason that I don't understand it is so darn competitive, opinions become dividing lines instead of areas of learning, animosities become hardened. I don't get it... well, I guess maybe I do get it, but wish it weren't so.

Can't we all just get along? :hearts:

Since many of us are dissatisfied with the OESCA breeder referral list, why don't we just make our own list to send people to instead?
I'm willing to do the work of making the list, if you guys can tell me of breeders that they think should be on the list and get me a way to contact them so I can see if they want to be on the list and get their dogs numbers so I can check them for their certifications and such. You all could help me come up with a list of requirements for being on the list and whatnot. I think it's a pretty good idea, many of us here know how hard it is to find a puppy with a reputable breeder, so why don't we try to make it a little easier?

Ron no, no one in mind in particular,just in general. For the love and admiration for the breed is why I could only hope and pray everyone could come together and get it right.

Whispers that turn into gossip is so mean spirited and above all only hurts any and everything in the end.

Actions always speaks louder than words....win win situation all around.
I am not an OESCA member so my voice does not count but I will do everything in my power to own up for my mistakes and above all learn from them.
Thanks for letting me voice my opinion on this forum,
Robin

snazzierella wrote:

Since many of us are dissatisfied with the OESCA breeder referral list, why don't we just make our own list to send people to instead?

It would be great if this was a solution but if you think about it, look who would end up being on the list: Everyone!

Over the years, just about every OES breeder in the world has been mentioned here and two buyers may have had totally different experiences with both the breeder and their dogs. The breeders on the OESCA list are no exception. If one says a particular breeder is great and another says they are horrible, who do you believe? It still goes back to what YOU are looking for in a breeder as well as a puppy. You have to do your homework.

The buyer still has to shoulder the burden when obtaining a puppy. It still makes better sense to use a guide such as Jaci worked very hard to assemble when purchasing a dog. http://www.untilyoufindme.com/Buying-An ... -Puppy.htm Some things such as kennel club affiliations are different outside of the USA but most criteria is the same worldwide. I personally do not like to recommend a particular breeder because I know quite a few good ones and some whose dogs I do not like or who I don't care for personally but they may seem fine to someone else. So I avoid naming names if possible. I still would recommend using the OESCA list as a starting point. And also include the information that Jaci put together. From there it's up to the buyer to make up their own minds.

Is this a perfect system? Of course not. Is there really a better way? Take responsibility for our own actions, study pedigrees, ask questions, ask to see documentation on health clearance, go to shows and see dogs for yourself. Develop a relationship with a breeder you like... Follow Jaci's list! Become educated before you buy!

One thing that is bothering me is the fact that it was as a result of posts on oes.org that Amber's petition for membership was denied. She initially posted asking about a health issue-she had never had a puppy with Abby's issues and was reaching out to see if any other breeder or rescue had experienced the same problem. That turned into something lovely when people helped out. That lovely gesture was then used against Amber, although, given how Abby is thriving I am guessing that despite the repercussions to Amber she would choose the life of the puppy every time.

I think that it is probably obvious to most of you how much oes.org has meant to me in my sheepie learning curve. I hate to think that if I ever ask a health question again, someone out there will twist it into some major genetic health issue in my dogs and use it against me or my breeder. That someone used information from this forum in such a negative way is, in my opinion, shameful. We all post here in good faith. Luckily my dogs have been healthy girls (icky ticks aside) but if I ever do have a problem I will no longer feel free to use this forum to gain knowledge. I guess I will stick to looking at cute puppy pictures here. That is a huge loss for me-the loss of this forum as a place to share knowledge. I have spoken to others who 'lurk' here but won't post for fear of being judged. I guess they were right, post questions or problems on oes.org at your peril. So that leaves me with the dreaded Facebook, I suppose, as I have more control over who views and uses my information. That thought just breaks my heart and I know that it sounds dorky, but I am feeling a real sense of loss.

Maggie McGee IV wrote:

snazzierella wrote:

Since many of us are dissatisfied with the OESCA breeder referral list, why don't we just make our own list to send people to instead?

Well, there are a lot of good breeders who are not part of the OESCA and will possibly get overlooked if we just send everyone to the OESCA list. Of course people still need to ask questions (and I do love Jaci's list, it was so much help for me, and I think I've probably said that a million times here), but I feel like making a list other than the OESCA list would help us to sort out reputable breeders from BYB breeders, without leaving out breeders who are not part of the OESCA. It took me a lot of searching to find my dog, and I saw lots of BYB websites and I had to sort through those to find the good ones. I just feel like it would be easier for everyone if there was a list. It could also help keep people away from the BYBs because it would be easier to find breeders who are not BYBs. When you get on google and start looking for a reputable breeder, many of the websites that come up first are BYB websites, and some of them look VERY convincing (for example, when I didn't know better and had just started my search, I came across a BYB website and I thought it was just peachy keen because they said that their dogs had OFA certifications and everything, then when I asked about it here everyone pointed out the flaws.). I just think it would help to have another list.

Just for the record, I want to take a moment and hug everyone:

:ghug:

Let's try and remember that many of us are friends, and if we aren't friends, then we at least have a common interest and we deserve each other's respect. :tea:

That is all.

Wait. Another hug, just for good measure!

:hearts:

^^^

Aweee... isn't she a keeper? :kiss:

Alison you are wonderful! Thanks for being here!

I think the hardest part is that we are all trying to do what we think is best by the breed. And sometimes, its just not that cut and dry, is it? I think that there are many good points here, but because they are so vastly different, people's feelings are being hurt and mis-understandings are happening.

Amber didn't plan to ruin sheepdogs everywhere by saving a single puppy that was unhealthy. She didn't concoct an evil plan to sucker people into donating money to that puppy's care; she didn't steal money that would have otherwise gone to rescue. Heck; she could have dumped that puppy on a rescue, and then they would have had the awful task of deciding to either euthanize little Abby or try and raise the funds for the expensive medical procedures.

OESCA is an organization that is trying to do the right thing by the breed, the breeders, the owners and I'm sure other groups I don't know a thing about. I doubt they are sitting around, trying to come up with nefarious schemes to kick respected and beloved breeders out of their program. In fact, I'll bet this has all been some sort of weird mis-understanding. How can a group dedicated to the betterment of our wonderful breed knowingly evict a member that has worked so very hard to help make sheepdogs as healthy and sound as they can be, and then worked as hard as Amber does to find those dogs wonderful loving homes?

I'm not a member of OESCA. I've never met Amber, and I don't own any of the dogs she has bred. So I like to think I'm coming from an impartial stand point. That being said, this all reads a lot like a big mis-understanding. Doug has the respect of our entire community, and as he sits at the head of the OESCA I'm sure he's wondering how this all came to pass, how it all got so out of hand, and how it can be set right again. And I bet Amber didn't see any of this coming, has been totally blindsided by it, and wishes she could turn back the clock to when nothing was so confusing, frustrating and complicated.

Everyone involved wants the best for the breed, even if they go about it in different ways. Surely the hurtful things that have been said out of frustration, and anger and mis-understanding can be put aside and a happy resolution can be sought out?

:hearts:

Allison,
I very much hope that Doug is working on figuring out how all this came to pass and how it will be fixed.

" SOME OESCA breeders (and posters on this forum) think Amber should have killed this puppy. SOME OESCA breeders (and posters on this forum) WOULD HAVE killed Abby. And you as a RESCUE DARE question Amber's motives? HOLY %#$!!!!!!!! It just reminds me to be extremely careful what "rescues" I will support in the future." This is what I don't understand?? Felt it was partially aimed at me. NEVER did I want this dog to be killed. Yes some breeders do euth sick puppies In rescue we have to make that choice all the time Why because of funds. Plain and simple. And I did not question her decision. I merely stated what I thought could have been an issue. I belong to several forums and even a breeder forum or two and have never seen something like this done. Yes maybe we are more caring and a more supportive group. I would hope so. I have given to many dogs . Shelter dogs, dogs in rescue and have even helped some people that fell on hard times with shots and food. The local food bank calls me when they give food to a family that had animals and I send over what is needed. So to say I questioned her motives...I did not. and to be extremely careful of the rescues you support Figured that might be my rescue efforts So in all fairness I don' believe this was nesessary I have been around for a long time and suppose I will be around a lot longer so I will sit back and have a cup of tea and say I still feel this is one of the best groups ever :hearts:

I am sorry that I have not keep up on these posts over the last 4-5 days.......I have had 3 days of dog shows and setting up the grounds for the reserved parking and grooming and then tearing them down takes some time and like most Clubs there are a handful of members that get the job done.....My Apologies for not being on this list to answer questions.

As for some of the previous posts I have read, I will try to answer your questions and present some policies and procedures the OESCA has. Much like our Government today. I love our our Country.....I don't trust the Government. You may feel this way towards the Club or some of its members. I hope that for the most part you will try to understand that WE as a Club do care about the OES Breed. We have members that come from all walks of life and experiences. We are NOT all perfect in everything we do. We all have opinions about the way dogs should be cared for and loved. We have different practices about subject matters that one may feel differently about. Such as Ambers situation with her puppy. Yes......there are those breeders who may elect to have put the puppy down and then there are those that would have done as Amber did and elected to do the surgery on it. Who is to say which one is the correct way of handling it? But ....the problem comes with those who become judgmental about the way either side has handed it. I have had these discussions with breeders. Do they want to know what the cause of the disease is? Yes! And how can you do that? Either by surgery or a necropsy....on the puppy. Most Breeders will NOT intentionally breed two dogs knowingly that they will produce a heart problem. I don't believe Amber did either. But it did happen in her breeding. Most Breeders do NOT want to put the burden of a puppy like this in the hands of a NEW pet owner who MAY occur other ongoing expenses related to this condition. It is my understanding that Amber was able to do find a person that wanted the puppy knowing the condition and was willing to accept its medical history......knowing there could be further possible expenses. I think that is wonderful. But ....how many times does a breeder find those people or homes willing to do this? Not very often. So is the breeder wrong in wanting to find out the cause of the condition that was produced with the sire and dam? Putting a puppy down may be the only alternative to do so? I know with OES that have CA......The only way to confirm that it is CA.....is to put the dog down....or when it dies......have that Brain packed in ICE and delivered to a College that can do the study and testing. I know.....I had to help a friend do this on one of his dogs and it was confirmed to have CA. Broke his heart......put today; he knows he did the right thing for the study of this ugly disease in our Breed. I guess my point to all of this......Is it should be left up to each of us as to how we handle situations in our breed as long as we are truthful and forth right about the history and the health of our dogs to others who inquire. I know that if I had Amber’s puppy? It would be hard for me to find a home for him and it would be unfair for me to expect someone to take on the health issues that it had. BUT....I would have wanted to know if this disease was something that was a hereditary trait with the sire and dam.

Now ...I saw where some on this list thought they could draw up a petition for Ambers membership with 30 signatures? In the By-laws the petition is allowed to be used for certain ways for Club members to bring forth items or subjects to the Club for business matters. IT IS NOT one to be used for membership. That can be done as I described with the two sponsors at the Annual Meeting and the 75% passing vote from the body of the membership. Amber’s membership was discussed in Executive Session and that information is left in that session. Only the vote was done outside of the session by the Board members.

BUGABOO OES wrote:

It is my understanding that Amber was able to do find a person that wanted the puppy knowing the condition and was willing to accept its medical history......knowing there could be further possible expenses. I think that is wonderful. But ....how many times does a breeder find those people or homes willing to do this? Not very often.

I just want to point out here, so it is abundantly clear to anyone who is reading this thread. Amber did end up giving the puppy, Abby, to the vet tech who was very involved with Abby's care and surgery during her stay (she was the one who stayed overnight with Abby in intensive care). This vet tech fell in love with Abby and was persistent in asking Amber for her. She's an experienced dog owner whose had sheepdogs before, and is very aware (obviously) of Abby's medical history. I hope most would be glad to know the latest vet's report states Abby is healthy and she's nearly caught up and is almost normal size for a puppy her age.

I also wouldn't make too much fuss about the risk of placing dogs knowing there could be further possible expenses. Isn't this the case with nearly all breed rescues which which finds homes for dogs who have been very poorly bred?

I also wanted to thank Allison for her inspiring words.........I am a person who is very much a "people person". I like people and I care about them......... There are things at times.......that I may believe should be handled differently in dealing with subject matters and Club business over the past years working on different boards. I only get to vote....... as the President, if there is a tie in matters. Outside of that.....the Business of the Club falls on those who the OESCA Members have elected to serve. There are times we agree and times we do NOT? But the matter of fact is........ we are a Board and we work together in matters that we feel are important and the best interest of the Club and the Breed. If you have opinons about things and feel differently than we do as Board members......on the Website and in the OE Times.There you will find the Names and Contacts of your REGIONAL DIRECTOR. I encourage you to write, call or email them and make your opinions known. PLEASE.......Use your voice! BUT.......also be considerate to others and give that "HUG" that Allison talks about. We all can use a hug every day.....we do it for our pets....lets do it for our friends in this breed.

BUGABOO OES wrote:

Yes......there are those breeders who may elect to have put the puppy down and then there are those that would have done as Amber did and elected to do the surgery on it. Who is to say which one is the correct way of handling it? But ....the problem comes with those who become judgmental about the way either side has handed it. I have had these discussions with breeders. Do they want to know what the cause of the disease is? Yes!

Who is to say which one is the correct way of handling it?? The OESCA board, in their decision, DID say which is the best way of handling it in voting to reject Amber's membership. They were saying, in that rejection, that they did not want her in the group because of her decision to accept the offer of help and have surgery done on Abby. And Abby did NOT have a disease. She had a mechanical problem that was unique to her. Amber asked that question several times as she herself, of course, wants to make sure that she breeds healthy dogs. And she asked the question to some of the best specialists in Canada. If you really had heard all of the information during her application review, you would know this. If you didn't know this, then the Board should have asked more questions before they voted.

Amber's decision to accept help and keep Abby alive is so diametrically opposed to the OESCA Boards way of doing things that they rejected her membership. Her being on the Canadian Board of Directors, her being on her local kennel club board, her organizing the Canadian National Specialty, her helping in rescue, her mentoring in the OES world, none of that could outweigh her deciding to accept help and keep Abby alive? I accept your premise that no one is perfect, but I cannot accept that everything this woman does in the OES world could not outweigh her deciding to accept help in keeping Abby alive. It makes no sense. OESCA is saying that her decision is so very horrible that they did not want her in their club. That is simply shocking to me. She did not decide to breed dogs with known health issues or temperament issues. She did not decide to breed without doing testing on her dogs. She did not keep her dogs in inhumane conditions and fail to socialize them. No, the terrible thing that she did, so terrible in fact that OESCA did not want her to taint their precious club by accepting her as a member, is that she accepted help to save a puppy, born WITH A MECHANICAL ERROR.

Oh, and for the record, as a Canadian owner of 3 OES and a member of the Canadian Old English Sheepdog and Owners Club of Canada I find it absolutely INSULTING that someone who is on our board, and voted into that position by Canadian members of our own club is not good enough for the American club because she accepted help to save a dog's life.

I know that some of you think that I am so utterly pissed off about this because I have dogs from Amber and because I am her friend. Certainly that is part of it. I have been to her home many times for grooming lessons. I have called her countless times for advice. I have grown to have great affection for her and her family. But for me this is about more than Amber's membership. Amber will continue to do a fine job breeding OES with our without OESCA membership.

I am so angry about this because it smacks of bullying and persecution and our breed just does not need this kind of #### if it is going to continue to thrive. We need to be working together, across international lines, to encourage good breeding practices, to mentor younger breeders, to encourage owners to get involved in a broader way than in just owning a dog. I have only had an OES for less than 3 years but I am already jaded by the high school cliquey bullying #### that goes on in the OES world. Breeders should be cheering each other on, helping each other out. Doug, people have said many kind things about you. Having never met you, I can only take them at their word that you are indeed a nice guy. As a nice man who cares about OES, and who is the President of the OESCA Board, I implore you to do something to change the policies and procedures of OESCA. There are so many good breeders and owners who can't or won't be a part of OESCA. That is a loss for all of us in the OES world. I truly hope that under your stewardship OESCA makes some changes.

As for the rest of us, each of us needs to be very mindful of the impact of our words to each other when we share information or gossip. I remember hearing a friend say that before she shares 'gossip' she asks herself: Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? I will by trying hard to remember to ask myself those questions before I speak.

I really know very little about the topic. I do know however that my respect for Amber couldn't have gotten higher because of her decision to do something for this puppy. It wasn't a condition that was going to be passed on, I believe she has been spayed and appears to be doing very well.

I think of the love she will give the person that now has her and too me that never could be a waste.

I have said I'll never be able to have one of Amber's pups but if I could and she was willing I would love to have one, even as in this case.

Go Kim!!!!

I noticed the other day that there are Blueshire dogs on Eevee's pedigree, and I'm very happy about that! I feel confident that Amber raises great dogs, which makes me think my Eevee will be a great dog too!

I think I've read everything I need to read about this topic and said everything I need to say.

Three last things:
1) This experience has told me to ask one other question of a breeder when looking at pups: "Do you euthanize for any other reason other than severe, incurable, untreatable ailments?" If the answer is yes, you're not getting my business. Seems this practice is not going to change and there is no one with enough power or will to champion it.

2) a club without Amber (and breeders/people like her) in it does a diservice to the club members, non-club members, owners, and the breed.

3) "status quo" seems to be their mantra. There doesn't seem to be incentive for any REAL change. The only way it will happen is with the removal of the current crop and installation of a whole new crop, comprised of all new members who aren't afraid to challenge the status quo, nee END the status quo. And move the club into the 21st century where decisions are made objectively and fairly for the betterment of the breed.

This may sound like maybe I missed something, but please bear with me....
Amber was denied membership for accepting donations to help save a puppy's life?
And why would it be called a donation?
Thank you,
Robin

gumbo41 wrote:

Robin,
What I'm about to type is how I understand it:

I'm not sure if she was denied membership because she accepted donations to save Abby or because she just plain saved Abby. Or maybe it's a combination of the 2. I don't know.
What I DO know is that no one from the board will come out and publically say. That speaks volumes about their transparency, or lack thereof.

Not only was Amber's membership rejected, but another person who had reapplied to OESCA who had lapsed membership status. An AKC JUDGE.
I personally have my own dealings with Mr. Johnson that i will share personally. I certainly do not share others opinions and have even other emails etc. to back up my (and others) feelings.

There is even more to Amber's membership rejection being due to jealousy and malicious gossip.

Mady wrote:

I think that it is probably obvious to most of you how much oes.org has meant to me in my sheepie learning curve. I hate to think that if I ever ask a health question again, someone out there will twist it into some major genetic health issue in my dogs and use it against me or my breeder. That someone used information from this forum in such a negative way is, in my opinion, shameful. We all post here in good faith. Luckily my dogs have been healthy girls (icky ticks aside) but if I ever do have a problem I will no longer feel free to use this forum to gain knowledge. I guess I will stick to looking at cute puppy pictures here. That is a huge loss for me-the loss of this forum as a place to share knowledge. I have spoken to others who 'lurk' here but won't post for fear of being judged. I guess they were right, post questions or problems on oes.org at your peril. So that leaves me with the dreaded Facebook, I suppose, as I have more control over who views and uses my information. That thought just breaks my heart and I know that it sounds dorky, but I am feeling a real sense of loss.

Kim, this is the reason I've turned into a lurker. Lucy was our first foster so we had a lot of questions...questions, answers, and pictures in our posts led to a member of this forum telling the rescue coordinator that we were unfit fosters (yes, I do know who it was). Ridiculous to be judged by a post made on this forum, but it is a very real situation that can hurt people and dogs.

Jen,
That's too bad.
I always like hearing about your furkids and especially your fur nephew.

I wonder what motivates these people to act in such a petty manner?

jcc9797 wrote:

Mady wrote:

that's horrible

4dognight wrote:

Not to get off the topic But there are not many OES in rescue. Please don't shoot the messenger.......now if someone is looking for a GSD or Lab

Yes rescue dogs are the best. I have a friend that waited a long time to get her rescued oes. People get tired of waiting and then go to a quick fix BYB or UGH puppy mill. When they could wait for a puppy from a decent breeder.

I looked for a rescue for about a year and a half. It was the best wait ever because I found my perfect match and never had to potty train! :clappurple:

Ali wrote:

Not only was Amber's membership rejected....
There is even more to Amber's membership rejection being due to jealousy and malicious gossip.

Really? What was it?

How did you find out?

Who told you?

What did they say?

(Can you tell journalism was one of my many academic interests?)

Okay, bring on the transparency!

Blueshire wrote:

The OET is available without membership. I know this because I buy subscriptions for friends.

Quote:

and to be a part of a group of OES lovers.....

Clearly you are loved here.

Quote:

to be included in Members Only features of the Club like meetings when I attend the Nationals.

I believe you are able to attend, but unable to vote. No one asked me for my credentials when I've sat in on meetings prior to my membership being approved.

Quote:

be privy to OESCA's Health Databases and developments regarding the health of our breed..........that is all.

I just did a search and it appears that you have the same access I do regarding health databases and developments.

What you do not have access to are regional newsletters, board minutes and balloting results. So is that what you are after: Regional newsletters?
:cow:

6Girls wrote:

Did you know I'm an OESCA member?

Unfortunately, I haven't actively done anything so I'm probably a diappointment. .

Yes, we keep a naughty list of those who don't join and immediately volunteer to do stuff. Not. :wink:

Sorry if this pops up as an old post. Playing catch-up as I've been busy working on the national. Not sure if the I'll bother working my way through the rest of what predominatly appears to be a rant, but, Robin, you had some good questions. Will try to get back to them when I have a sec.

And, Jaci, fear not - sooner or later someone will cotton on to the fact that there's a creative and talented rescue oriented person up in Michigan and you'll be wishing they hadn't :sidestep:

There's always a ton of work to do in any club.

Kristine

gumbo41 wrote:

This may sound like maybe I missed something, but please bear with me....
Amber was denied membership for accepting donations to help save a puppy's life?
Thank you,
Robin

Short answer: no.

As Doug has outlined, she has recourses, should she choose. Her membership application can be brought to a membership vote at the annual meeting (the next one is in Wisconsin in September) Or she can reapply.

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

gumbo41 wrote:

This may sound like maybe I missed something, but please bear with me....
Amber was denied membership for accepting donations to help save a puppy's life?
Thank you,
Robin

True answer: mostly personal dislike for her from someone who's never met her, accepting donations to save the puppy's life was just the convenient excuse* :roll:

The recourse methods are hardly inspiring. She would need a unanimous board vote if she re-applied, she would need a 75% member vote at the annual meeting. Why on Earth would anyone go through the humiliation of that public trial just for the chance to pay annual dues to a poxy dog club????

*which is bizarre, because even if it WERE the real excuse, it's a monstrously disgusting excuse which makes the person who uses it a heartless disgusting troll, much less a freakin' dog lover!

gumbo41 wrote:

Robin - many of these diseases can already be listed.

Now, the CHIC database has its limitations, because it can only be used for diseases for which there are specific tests (phenotype - like hip x-rays or thyroid test, for instance - or genotype, like the MRDI or PCD tests - though we don't yet list the latter, we have to ask the OFA to add it. Can be easily done, though, and I did ask the HRC to consider it - two of us have PCD tested dogs) It does not list CA YET, because there is no CA test (yet). As soon as there is one, it can be added, and, believe me, honey, it will be.

Until then we have the OESCA open health registry, accessible to all, OESCA member or not: go to http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... /index.php and select open health registry on the left.

We've discussed adding autoimmune diseases to the OESCA open health registry, but they are often not clear-cut, neither in terms of their hereditary basis (not claiming there isn't one, just that it is not well understood at all, and, also some can occur secondary to things like tick borne diseases) nor diagnosis. There needs to be a clear cut, scientifically defensible basis for this kind of information or the information is meaningless and potentially damaging. Haven't given up trying to figure out how to handle this, it's just beyond the scope of what is possible with the scientific understanding that exists today.

The open health registry is currently limited to CA and MDR1 - we're considering adding PCD here, though it and MDRI do fit the CHIC criteria, so we've (and when I say we, sorry, I should say the OESCA Health & Research committee) have been discussing the pros/cons in terms of where the information belongs, should we duplicate the OFA/CHIC information or would that detract from the effectiveness of those registries? etc. It's a process and it's not perfect but we keep working on it.

Anyway, to familiarize youself with the database, I will use my Mace as an example: http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... =OESCA.dbw and choose a five generation pedigree, you will see she has CA carriers in her pedigree. This type of information, in turn, is only available to us (all of us, OESCA members and non-members alike), because breeders and/or owners of affected dogs made the heart-wrenching decision to euthanize a beloved dog and have the dog necropsied. Just FYI to expand a little on something Doug referenced.

Anyway, PRA, however, would be listed in the CHIC registry (and OFA) as it can be detected during a CERF test. I suspect most breeders today, at least in OES, are still mostly only comfortable releasing normal results, but there are some, even in OES, who make it their policy to release all test results. So if you go through the CHIC dogs you will find some that may be dysplastic, or are hypothyroid, had an abnormal cardiac test and so on. This is extremely valuable information and the reason the registry exists.

Can't get into one of my long health testing dissertations (all breathe a collective sigh of relief now ;-)

)Truly swamped. But wanted you to know what kind of info is out there.

May have mentioned all of this a few dozen times before, though....It seems like facts are just never as sexy as speculation and the likes. :lmt:

Or I'm just a horribly boring writer. Fully possible

: Obviously something I need to work on.

Kristine

Dear, dear ,Kristine.....
As always,you come to the rescue! :bow:

I was hoping you would write in this thread and you came through for me as well as this community of OES lovers.
I totally understand how the process works now along with as others can read, you have tirelessly have devoted your time to health and research. :yay:

I thank you from the bottom of my heart and know that this is a volunteer position. :bow:

Robin

Robin, though I thank you for the :bow:

I think you need to hold that for now as I clearly suck in the communications department. I could have sworn I'd covered most of this in previous discussions? :lmt:

Obviously not well.

Happy you found it useful, though.

Ah, well, back to work...

KB

Which....makes me think a separate sticky would be useful in this case.
You do not give yourself enough credit....me thinks :wink:

I do know from personal experience, you are the go to, within health questions and again I thank you and appreciate all you do for the breed. :high5:

Now what does sex have to do with all of this..... :sidestep:

Robin

QuailTrail wrote:

Ali wrote:

Not only was Amber's membership rejected....
There is even more to Amber's membership rejection being due to jealousy and malicious gossip.

Really? What was it? From having heard it before........

How did you find out? By having people that were in on the board meeting tell me, by Amber telling me.

Who told you?

SEE ABOVE

QuailTrail wrote:

What did they say?

For the people in the know.................it has been discussed, we even know who the gossip mongers are. If Amber wants to put it out there fine. We know who has been making behind the scene calls and how they treat others as well.

THOSE are the people that should be brought up on unsportsmanship but that will never happen as long as the powers that be in OESCA are in.

From the perspective of someone who knows nothing beyond is being bantered about here, I have a question:

If this is such an awful, vile organization with horrible people in charge, why would Amber and others be fighting to get into it? And having her minions doing her bidding for her by keeping the hate stirred up? There must be more to this but I'll bet the "rest of the story" doesn't get published on this forum.

Initially, there wasn't any wrongdoing by Amber but now it appears she's really burned all her bridges. Tsk, tsk. Such a pity. She's probably a very nice person.

Outside Looking In wrote:

A couple of things:

1) There is more to this story than what is on this forum but it will never come out because the powers that be of OESCA feel no need to address the situation. Apparently, they feel they are above answering to their members and potential members. Doesn't exactly give you a warm fuzzy feeling about an organization now does it?

2) In your first sentence, you say that you do not know more than what has been posted in this thread. But your last sentence says that it appears she has burned all her bridges. How would you know if it even appears as she's burned all her bridges? And how do you know there initially wasn't any wrongdoing by her?

You say you don't know more than what was posted here but your statements and tone say otherwise.
And why not register? Why hide behind a guest-like alias/status?

Outside Looking In wrote:

First of all, I have never called OESCA a vile organization with horrible people in charge, and I am not fighting to get into OESCA. I applied, membership rejected, period. I will agree that some people with their own personal agendas or beefs with the club have posted, but I thought I had made it clear that these posts did not reflect my feelings. I do not have "minions" speaking on my behalf. If I would like to say something I will. Anyone who knows me knows I HATE drama and gossip. If I have something to say I will say it, and I do not say anything bad about anyone! As a matter of fact I do not even know alot of the active posters in this topic and just as you have, everyone is entitled to their opinion, both of OESCA and of me.

To say that I have burned my bridges....I am not sure exactly what I have done to do that? Was I upset my membership was rejected? Yes. Of course. Actually I was very sad, and while this may make me sound weak, I cried when I received my official letter yesterday stating my application for membership was denied. It was embarassing, both for me and the Old English Sheepdog & Owners Club of Canada to which I am a very hardworking member and current Secretary. And especially when I was informed of the complaint a voting Board member brought up about me who obviously can't stand me and I can honestly say I have no idea why, other than maybe what gossip they have "heard" about me. I was told that the concerns that were brought up was yes, about accepting donations for Abby as well as the fact that my husband was laid off and they stated that we were making our living off of the dogs (laughable) Unfortunately it has been brought to my attention that a few breeders who I do not even know despise me and have been spreading untruths about my dogs. I have had many people give me the names of breeders who are claiming I do not health test my dogs, that I am a BYB and so on. And the funny thing is, I do not even know these people! I am thankful that the majority of people who have heard these horrible disgusting rumours have actually did their homework and found out these breeders were lying (which makes you fellow breeders look horrible and vicious by the way)

A list of vicious rumours being spread which I am sure had something to do with what is going on:

1) RUMOUR: I am a puppymill. I produced 156 puppies last year. This was spread around by a nasty group of women here in Canada who were caught red handed spreading the lie.....they were totally not expecting an OESCA Director to tell me what she was told (this was way before my application to OESCA) This OESCA Director first verified with the CKC that this was false (there were only 130ish puppies registered in all of Canada that year, so I guess I must not be registering them!!) TRUTH: I have produced 151 puppies in 7 years....which averages 21 puppies per year. Remember, I have always had large litters. Out of those 151 puppies I have 22 Champions, a Best in Show dog, a Crufts BOS winner, and 3 International Champions. I also have a Rally titled dog, many therapy dogs and a herding/agility star well on her way. The worst thing anyone could call me or refer to me as is a Puppy Mill. It is a word jealous underhanded breeders like to call each other for some reason. Have you people ever seen a puppy mill? To compare me to that is unacceptable. To compare me to those slimeballs who mass produce puppies in those filthy conditions is the worst insult there is.

2) RUMOUR: I produce blind dogs. TRUTH: Actually, the truth of the matter is I PREVENTED the possibility of doing that by spaying and never breeding my Champion dog who's CERF came back that she had retinal dysplasia.

3) RUMOUR: The SPCA took away my dogs and they live tied up in my yard and are all in bad shape. TRUTH: I have had many OESCA well known respected breeders at my home and I was actually complemented by Madeline Erickson recently in an e-mail she sent to a fellow breeder/friend that, and I quote, " Her dogs were wonderful!! Quiet, gentle, and so well behaved. That is what one should expect to see when visiting an OES home and family." Well known breeder Pam Tomes, Brinkley OES in England, visited my home and took home a show male from me. The Schultes from Shagshadow have been here on many occasions (even left Sweet Baby Joe here with me for a week for me to use him for stud) My list could go on......

RUMOUR: I do not do health certifications on my dogs. TRUTH - Of course I do! I would never, ever breed a dog without at a bare minimum CERF and OFA/OVC. I am now also doing OFA Thyroid and getting CHIC numbers for all my dogs. This is the one that peeves me the most. You well known breeders saying this about me..... how foolish or plain lazy are you to have no problem airing this to anyone who will hear you and yet this is something that can be checked online! You make yourselves look sooooo silly!

Can we not all just get along.......if for nothing then our love for this amazing breed of dogs we all should be dedicating our lives to improving?? I feel like a child sometimes, thinking of how wonderful things would be if we all just got along. I must say that the Canadian National Specialty that we just had in May was what I dream about. The comeraderie was amazing. We all groomed together, laughed together, shared our stories at dinner. At the end of the day it is all about the dogs folks. Lets always keep that in mind and please try to stop all of the hate, drama and backstabbing that seems to be more talked about then our dogs.

I would also like to invite all breeders or anyone for that matter who has a problem/concern with me or my dogs to please contact me either through a PM or to my own e-mail blueshire@cogeco.ca so you can let me know what is the issue is. Let's work it out. I want to be friendly with ALL of you! Let me put some rumours to rest and provide you all with facts. I would love nothing more than to be able to say Hi to all of you at this years Nationals and enjoy the show, even if I am not an OESCA member. I am holding no hard feelings towards anyone as far as my membership denial goes.

Sincerely,

I agree, Amber.

As I said before:

Ron wrote:

Attempting to support Amber by attacking OESCA as a whole is counter productive and is a mistake in judgement in my opinion.

It is counter-productive to attack OESCA. It's also confusing people as to who is perpetrating the attacks and for what reason.

To everyone who continues to be angry on Amber's behalf or who has another reason to be upset with OESCA, please find another thread to do it. I don't think she wants your "help" in this manner on this matter anymore but is too polite to say it.

Thanks Ron.

Ron wrote:

I agree, Amber.

As I said before:

Ron wrote:

Attempting to support Amber by attacking OESCA as a whole is counter productive and is a mistake in judgement in my opinion.

So if we see what amounts to bullying, we are to turn a blind eye? If we see someone misusing information posted on this forum, we are to let that go? If we hear about a breeder telling a prospective puppy buyer blatant untruths about another breeder, we just let that pass too? That is slander and is, in Canada anyway, illegal. It is also sneaky bullying. I don't have a beef with members of the OESCA board. Before all of this happened, I could not have named a single member of the board. I learned about the details of the board decision at Sheepiepalooza. I knew that Amber had been denied, but the details were relayed to me by folks in St. Louis and seemed to be common knowledge.

My beef was with their process. Someone applied for membership. It was denied without directors having enough information to make a proper decision, hence the number of directors who abstained, I imagine. What should have happened, in my opinion, is that the application should have been put on hold while directors gathered more information. I hope that they change their procedures in future.

The whole thing certainly put a damper on my trip to St. Louis. Having to defend the breeder of my 3 beloved dogs while on vacation, and then on this forum, has left me feeling quite cynical about humankind. I can see that I have burned bridges in posting about this, but I also see now that with some people there never were any bridges in the first place. I had been judged and found wanting based on the name attached to my dogs. More the fool me, once again I am not a member of the cool kids club. The bullies always win, it seems.

Ron wrote:

To everyone who continues to be angry on Amber's behalf or who has another reason to be upset with OESCA, please find another thread to do it.

Not cool Ron. And we should find another thread besides the "discussion on OESCA..." to question OESCA decisions when they're found wanting? Do you accept all authority without question?

Would you rather we all left for Facebook and leave oes to anonymous guest trolls?

You know what bothers me about this topic?
It's not the players. They are inconsequential in this story.

It's the injustice. This is what burns my ass!

An injustice was perpetrated and it's expected to be swept under the rug?!?!?
How come no transparent inquiry? Why don't all the parties have to answer for their actions?

We've heard one side of the story. I would think OESCA would want to tell their side of the story. What haven't they? What are they hiding? Why won't they even defend themselves? Why don't they have to answer for their actions. Why don't they have to explain their actions?

I'm sure I've burned some bridges on this thread, as well. And that's too bad. Because that just means people want to protect their own interests rather than learning the truth (no matter how ugly) or seeing justice served.

And I don't have time in my life for people who sit idly by while injustices happen. Can't do it.

This is just not fair to OESCA nor to me. I know people are upset about this, but the person at the center in my opinion is being harmed by the continuation of the matter and her post asking folks to just get along reinforces my opinion in my mind.

Everyone is free to voice (write?) their opinion on the OESCA breeder referral list in that other thread but all of this other stuff didn't belong in the sticky about how to find a puppy so I moved it to this thread. Nobody is being censored, it's been very politely asked to let it go at this point, and at a point fourteen days ago, too. That's right, for two weeks since I mentioned that it's counter productive it has continued. That's fine, I'm not the world's brightest guy, I can have an erroneous opinion.

How many more times should it be reiterated that the vote was unfair, that the reasoning was flawed and the politics are skewed, that the process is broken?

But good golly how much is enough? How many times should the president of that organization come here to post that he's aware of the issues and is working on them, and recommend a specific course of action to be taken? Everyone should read between the lines here and if you don't know what I mean by that, PM me.

It's all been said and done and the person at the center has asked everyone to move on.

Nobody was asked not to post opinions about OESCA, everyone was asked simply to put it in a different thread. And nobody has burned any bridges, at least not with me.

PS Ya know, I'm not King Solomon. I don't have a dream interpreter or a soothsayer or a political adviser to help me navigate through all of the political waters that are required to run this forum. I'm a computer programmer who likes sheepdogs. As everyone knows, computer programmers are well suited and particularly apt at dealing with interpersonal relationships. When a thread like this comes up I get 42 emails and PMs complaining from all sides from people asking/telling me that something needs to be done, who is right, who is gonna be or has been sued, what person is the arse in which situation, why I've become a lurker, why that person left, why facebook is winning.

So gimme a break. I don't have all the answers and everybody can't be satisfied all the time. But don't take it out on me personally. I'm not being personal about this, I'm just doing the best I can. If you don't like my actions, I'm happy to discuss them with you and explain why I've done or haven't done things, and I'm open to revisit decisions. At the end of the day I have always done what I think is the right thing to do. Please keep my pocket protector in mind and be forgiving in your assessments of my actions.

I won't post again, Ron, I am done.

Ron wrote:

How many more times should it be reiterated that the vote was unfair, that the reasoning was flawed and the politics are skewed, that the process is broken?

But good golly how much is enough? How many times should the president of that organization come here to post that he's aware of the issues and is working on them, and recommend a specific course of action to be taken?

How long should this go on for you ask?
I guess until the president of OESCA comes out and publicly says what happened, why it happened, how he's rectifying it, when he's rectifying it, and how he will prevent that type of thing from ever happening again.
Oh, and a public apology for letting something like this happen under his watch.

People need to dial down the anger. I know Amber , as a matter of fact the Blueshire BIS dog happens to be my Gabriel. You are doing Amber and Blueshire a disservice with the nastiness that is being posted. I don't know what actually happened and apparently you don't either, but give Doug the chance to get it rectified. It seems curious to me that certain members here just keep it going and appear to be more upset than Amber is. If the end result is that Amber is denied membership that will be the clubs loss and they will have missed the chance to have an extremely compassionate and caring breeder among their ranks.

Just for the record I only met Doug once and I have never had a Bugaboo dog. He trimmed Zachary for the specialty in MN after driving all day and didn't even know me.

Blueshire wrote:

I am done with this thread, and trust me, I think I have been practicing enormous restraint, no one's seen me be nasty yet :tea:

However, I do reserve the right to challenge anyone, particularly anonymous posters, who attempt to slander Amber with any of the (incredibly-easy-to-refute) lies Amber posted above. The people who try to spread them are the true nasty villains in this sad story.

Topic closed.

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