Do you feel that OES have aggression issues
What are you thoughts? |
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| This is not a response to OES' ...rather than to the dogs in general do not have aggression issues.
I think many breeds cannot stop trying to be alpha esp. when those around the breed are leaving openings. ....naturally causing aggression. Thus, some dogs being profiled as needing "experienced owners." jmo. |
| In your opinion do you feel that the alpha tendancy is breed specific or that it is individual specific and not related to breeds.
I would also like to define aggressive tendancy as being an obsessive drive where the individual doesn't respond to normal training. |
| I think both. IMO, it's the breed that has aggression issues thus needing an experienced owner. As it is also the owner bringing out this inherent trait. |
| I feel that 1 in about every thirty dogs have strong alpha tendencies (no scientific evidence here), but those tendencies or role confusion issues don't turn into aggression issues (some form of biting or threatening behavior) in more than 1 in every 400 to 500 or more dogs. In my experience the problems usually are barking, jumping on people, pulling the leash, some food guarding and snapping, etc. These problems are from the owners lack of experience 99.9% of the time and are manifest in all breeds. I see it in many small breeds but we don't focus on them because they are small. Sooooo Sheepdogs are intelligent and energetic, but agressive threatening behavior as an issue in my opinion is not the correct way to describe unaccepatable training outcomes for any breed. |
| Rogers Dad, I agree. But, I also think many perceive the strong herding
drive as aggression. Or should I say, I think inexperienced owners unwittingly bring out the more aggressive traits of herding and wind up with a dog they don't know what to do with. I think also that the size of these guys also contributes to the idea that they are aggressive. Both non dog-people and even some dog-people seem to have the idea that the bigger the dog the more aggressive it will be. Bigger dog = bigger bark (more intimidating) Bigger bark = bigger bite. Plus, people inexperienced with OES (or any larger breed) can get overwhelmed by how fast they grow and lose control over the dog quickly, perpetuating the aggression factor. Shellie |
| Inexperienced owners do contribute to their own perception of aggressive dogs. Our first sheepie was not aggressive at all except for his food. Had I known then what I know now (thanks to the forum!!) I could have worked with him to overcome it. But since he was my first experience, we just put up with it.
Our second sheepie was DEFINITELY an alpha, to the point where we had to put him down because nothing we tried worked - even had a behavior specialist come to the house to work with us and give us advice. Nothing we tried worked. He always saw our kids are ranking below him, and he bit just once too often. Drez is the most laid back dog I've EVER seen. She loves everybody. Not fond of cats, though. And when the next door neighbor's dogs are out and they start acting aggressive towards Drez (thank God for fences!!), she wants to bark back, but we just pull on the leash to get her farther away from the fence. Other than that, she's the sweetest dog alive! So I think it depends on the dog itself. The conditions can be changed to a point by experienced handlers, but, like in the case of our second dog, there was just no changing him. JMHO, Chris |
| I can only comment on my own dog and my sister in law's OES- both are totally laid back. People at the dog park even comment about how mellow Bailey is for a dog his size. He'll play with the other dogs but he is not at all aggressive with them and hasn't shown any domination tendencies. Maybe I just got lucky, but we do follow all of the recommendations (Dog Listener, etc.) about establishing his place in our pack. |
| You can look into Drezzie's eyes and tell she is too cool. So, I agree with you it is on an individual basis not a breed thing.
I would also reccommend that anyone with an aggressive dog buy the Cesar Millan DVD. With proper Alpha duty reassignment most dogs will come around. |
| I don't believe they are agressive as a breed. However, poor breeding paractices, combined with owner mistakes can lead to any dog being agressive. I have never met an agressive OES in my life, and I have known dozens. All the oes I have met have been from the same bloodlines though, so again, if a reputable breeder is chosen carefully, and the owner to be researches the breed thoroughly and raises that dog with positive reinforcement, chances are it will not be aggressive. |
| I agree with you Roger's Dad that OES's don't have aggression issues if we define it with intent to harm. When I use the term "aggression issues" in respect to the OES I'm talking about the herding instincts to bite and bark. And issues just means instincts that could eventually become a problem for us humans that want a nice, safe dog.
I also agree that all dogs bite and bark, because that is their way of communicating. But dogs, and dog breeds, act on both the wolf and breed specific instincts. In my opinion, and this is not something everyone will agree with, each breed has the instincts to do what they were bred to do: Retrievers like to have something in their mouth, pitbulls fight other dogs, Jack Russells dig...these characteristics all go back to their original function. Now that we want these dogs as pets, we train them to supress their instincts. But that doesn't mean that the instincts are not there. Things like jumping up on people and creating a hierarchy, these are natural behaviors in a dog that can be traced back to wolves. I'm not trying to say that one breed is better than another, and I'm not trying to take a big group of dogs and saying that these ones are mean, these ones are not, because we are all a product of our society, and each dog is different. But what I do want to make clear is that all dogs have instincts and depending on the training and the socialization, instincts can be supressed. I hope that makes sense. |
| I didn't learn this until recently, and I think it's fascinating:
Ever wonder why your dog jumps up on you when you come home? It 's a behavior that goes all the way back to wolves. When the adult wolves came back from hunting and had eaten the prey, the puppies would come out and jump up to lick the adults' mouths. The puppies used the licking to cause the adult to vomit up some of the food and then they would eat it, and this was their first experience with solid food. (Yeah, it's kind of gross) So now we think of these behaviors as bad, but really they all have some purpose. |
| I have to agree it seems certain breeds have certain traits. Some that come to mind are : Terrier's dig, Chiwawas seem to bite, greyhounds love to run, beagles roam. I wonder if breeding for temperment means there is a gene involved. So I guess I believe there are 2 things involved breed traits and individual traits. I still don't think I can buy in to labeling a breed as tending to be aggressive especially OES. How about calling them large active dogs that are served better by an experienced dog person or something like that. Dobermans and Rotweilers have a bad undeserved reputation of being mean or aggressive, I hate to see Sheepdogs being put in the same light. They have the reputation of being good watchdogs but poor guarddogs in other words they bark but don't bite. Can we figure a way to say that in a sound bite other than agression issues.
I read once in an OES book under security: Will assist burgulars carry goods to the door. |
| Ive had 6 oes and of the six one has been aggressive.
He was a 2 year old rescue when i got him and he had food aggression which i never got him out of.By the time he died at 13 he was aggressive with strangers and his toys to the point he had to wear a muzzle. He had dog trainers and behaviour specialists work with him but all could do nothing. In my opinion he was an alpha male and the people who first had him didn't know how to bring him up properly and the results where an aggressive dog. I once heard through a rescue centre that they once had a 3 year old oes bitch in that no one could get near she just went for everything that moved.The specialists had been working with her for 6 months and she showed no improvements and had to be put to sleep. |
| I guess I never answered the question, although I did vote! I do not think
OES, as a breed in general is aggressive. I think people unfamiliar or unexperienced with the breed may feel they are, for the reasons I stated. Maybe I am clearer now. 
Shellie |
| This is a really interesting thread. I could go on and on about breed differences and alpha tendencies, which I agree do exist, but I do think a good portion is upbringing, another large portion is the individual dog and the last tiny section is dumb luck. Everyone knows someone who has "the greatest, most gentle pitbull in the world" but those dogs have been skunked with one of the worst reputations ever. They really do demand an owner that will be firm and consistent because, given the chance, they'll walk all over you. I think that's where upbringing comes into play. Lax owners make for poor behaving dogs-- especially in those breeds that need the discipline more than others.
Like Chris was saying, even with diligent training and working with her previous dog, nothing seemed to work. Who knows why? It's certainly not for lack of trying or discipline, doesn't sound like upbringing problems, just a combo of that individual dog and, again, luck of the draw, which could incorporate any number of things, breeder, position with littermates, anything I guess. Clyde is just the happiest, friendliest dog I've ever had. He loves people, is polite in social situations, listens well and understands commands. Our neighbor comes over to the fence and hangs over just so Clyde will jump up and give kisses. Lucy, on the other hand, came from an abusive home before I rescued her. She's great once she develops some trust with new people but until then, she barks when the neighbors come anywhere near the fence, refuses to be pet or touched and shies away from any advances. She and Clyde are together all the time and though he watches this behavior, Clyde is Clyde. It isn't his personality to react like that and he won't be swayed to either. I really believe just who we are as people, and how we act around our animals makes a HUGE difference in their behavior. I treat my dogs better than I treat most people. I include them in everything, we do all kinds of thing as a family, we take them places-- we make them part of our lives everyday. It's the socializing with us and our friends, as well as the love that we show them that makes them who they are. I know it probably sounds wacky but it's kinda like that whole thing about people picking dogs that look like them. Doesn't it make sense that our dogs would start to act like us too-- or vice versa?  |
| Roger's Dad, I agree with where you're coming from. Breeding is an important aspect of the equation.
But as humans we are going to classify the undesirable behavior of OES's as aggression because no pet owner wants to be bit. I mean, there are tons of dog behaviors we call aggressive, but if we thought about why the dogs act like this, we would see a purpose to it. Going back to pitbulls: they were bred for the sole purpose of fighting other dogs. The owners would be down in the "pit" with them egging the dogs on. Throughout history, pitbulls were used basically for the amusement of people. And now, we try to own them as pets and complain when they try to fight other dogs, when WE are the ones who created that trait. I guess we just don't always realize why dogs do what they do. I find "aggressive" to be somewhat inappropriate to describe all sheepdogs, but once again, as humans that want a domestic dog as a pet, we tend to describe all such physical behavior as aggressive. I'm not condoning the use of the word. We as experienced sheepdog owners know that with proper training and socialization many problem behaviors can be overcome. I'm also not trying to argue this and say I'm right. I just want to make it clear where I'm coming from so you don't think I'm throwing words around, tainting the name of a fabulous group of dogs. Also, I find it very unfortunate that certain groups of dogs have a bad name. Once again I'll use pitbulls as an example. The main threat of such a dog is the "dog aggression" aspect (i.e. pitbull attacking another dog). It's such a shame because it is poor ownership and breeding that have achieved this dog's reputation. Go here to see a list of breed specific legislation for each state (you have to scroll down on the page): http://www.sidyboysfoolin.com/BSLcountries.html I find it to be discrimination, and yet another means for the government to control aspects of our lives. I understand that it is used for the protection of people, but I believe that it is bred of ignorance. Next month I'm hoping to get our local humane society onto the opposition of BSL. There are cities here in Kansas trying to ban German Shepherd, Akitas, Staffordshire Terriers, and the list goes on. |
Pardon my above rambling post. I'm on 9 hours sleep total in the last 3 days and, well, it's starting to show.
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| I would have to agree with other posters here, as my dog had dominance issues. Of course being close to 100 lbs and very fond of herding things, playing in the yard to him was like playing with an NFL linebacker. These guys are BIG dogs that are meant to keep herds of animals in check and fend off other predators. He loved to run into me and just knock me down as we chased after the indestructo-ball. I took care of his food aggression before he was six months old, by surprising him just one time, when he charged as my daughter placed his food bowl in its place. After that he was very patient for feeding. |
| He does look like a big boy by your avatar! Of course, not all oes are big dogs, they just look bigger because of the fur. My girls aren't even half his size...lol... |
| How about Owner Specific Legislation instead!
Shellie |
| Woohoo! |
| I think all breeds have issues with aggression. Hopefully we have a well behaved, well bred mother having a litter of pups. These pups are learning from day one how to interact as a member of the "pack".
They learn their rank through a form of aggressive behavior, some continue to use that behavior to "advance" their rank, others tend to shy away, unless confronted. While the mother is allowing her pups to learn survival techniques, human contact is necessary to teach them that their "ranking" skills will not be tolerated, and is unnecessary. Just as with children, what they were taught and allowed to do as pups will effect their adulthood. Establish that this behavior is unacceptable from the time they start it, not after they're weaned, etc... By then this aggressive/playing behavior will be harder to break, and they've become more "pack" oriented within the litter, rather than with both, the litter and humans. We have animals for pets, but must remember they are born with animal instincts for survival. The way we deal with it from birth is what usually determines whether it becomes an issue. Then, you have the puppies leaving home. Regardless of how they were raised, they're scared. Survival is their priority. What rank did they have in the litter, how much human contact did they have, etc......... If all the answers are wrong, we may end up with an animal that's confused. It's animal instincts kick in, it knows it was an alpha in the litter, knows how to advance its rank, and now placed in a new enviroment, its scared, its brave, and only knows that aggression puts you at the top of the food chain, and it wants to remain there. If lack of human contact was an issue, there's now an issue of trust. They're going to protect themselves. Playing within the litter is usually rough, so............................ I say its an issue that can usually be dealt with, but theres a few, no matter how hard you try, refuse to surrender "their" right to be, and act as an animal. |
| I agree dogs are not an aggressive group as a whole, esp OES. I've never met a "bad" one, and Remy is so far from aggressive it would be really out of character for her to be aggressive...unless you count licking someone to death aggressive.
IMO it's more about how they are raised and what's happened to them good or bad. Some is who their parents are, but I think even then it can be corrected by the right person. Obedience classes can't be ignored, a well trained dog is the key to a happy dog. If he knows his place there is no need for him to act out or take charge...because he feels he has no choice. |
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