Gigi attacked one of my shih tzus.
Here is what happened yesterday: My shih tzu was coming in from the backyard. He fell in the pool. I retrieved him. Suddenly Gigi was all over us. Constantly biting, attacking the shih tzu. I told her no and tried to hold her back. But I needed my arms to protect the shih tzu. She was relentless and determined to kill the little one. I kept the shih tzu in my lap and tried to protect him and get gigi to stop. Gigi would not let me get up. After some time, I was able to get gigi by the neck and stop her. The shih tzu and I were biten. The shih tzu was taken to the vet and has staples on his wounds. My bites are ok. Hurt but ok. This is not the first time, but the worse time. If this shih tzu makes a squel or noise, Gigi attacks him. Twice before I was able to get her off of him. I was standing and able to grab her. These times were frightening, but nothing like yesterday. There is no problem with food or any type of guarding issues. It seems when Gigi hears a noise involving this dog, she attacks him. Yesterday scared me a lot. I now have them separated. I am thinking of a muzzle for Gigi. The vet told me there is nothing we could do to stop this behavoir and that it will happen again. Just don't know when. He has now noted in her chart, that she is an aggresive dog. I don't think that is a correct label. She is wonderful most of the time. Any other suggestions? I am so confused. I love Gigi but yesterday scared me. I hate seeing my poor little shih tzu with shaved fur and staples and in pain from bruising. |
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| omg so sorry this happen to you and gigi.. boy that brings back memories of derby when he kept attacking duffy it seem when duffy was scared of something then derby would go after him .. later i found out some do attack duffy he is very sumissive at the dog park i had to stop taking him.. i hope someone has answers for you.. i know how much you love your furkids all of them !! |
| Both Dawn and your vet are correct. There's no fix for this, only very careful management, which is a little scary for your shih-tzu as all it takes is one slip up. That's because prey drive is hard-wired. Lots of breeds are a lot more prey driven than most OES, many terriers and hounds, for instance, and their owners just know not to trust them. They usually don't have little dogs or cats. Some OES are over the top (for the breed) as well - Pam and Randy's rescue dog, Garfunkel, comes to mind - they manage him with a muzzle when need be, but don't have little prey-like critters themselves. My own rescue dog is fairly high prey drive and can't be trusted, I suspect, on her own with my cat. I'm not sure what to tell you except you need to do what you need to do to keep your little dog safe. Had one of my dogs bitten me or another dog to the point where either of us needed stitches, they'd be dead now. That said, it's not an unheard of thing in dogs. Just a troublesome one in a mixed pack. If you aren't confident you can keep the two of them apart, you may want to consider rehoming the shih-tzu for her safety. Yeah - I don't know if i'd be able to do that either.  Kristine |
| Oh my gosh... your poor shih tzu.. That has to be tough and I wouldn't know what to do either. I'm sure Gigi is confused to what she's doing as well. I hope things don't happen again like the vet said. Hopefully you can get the message across to Gigi what can't happen. Glad you weren't hurt? |
| Never had the issue myself but a co-worker had an oes and some Chihuahuas, the oes did go after one of the chihuahuas, it survived after some very expensive surgery but it couldn't hold it's neck correctly after healing up. They did not get rid of either one of them but I guess her husband was not very nice to the oes after that incident. |
| So sorry to hear this happened. You'll need to be very careful in the future. Rehoming one or always separating are about the only two options I can think of. My Schipperke-mix is horrid. I had 2 rabbits up until a few years ago (they died of old age) and she stalked them. I had to be 100% on guard whenever I had them in their open outdoor pen. She would circle the wagon looking for a way in and was relentlessness. I would eventually put her indoors because she was too focused on them and it was annoying. Early on I tried to work with her. She would nicely lick their ears but eventually have both ears in her mouth gently mouthing them.  Never once did she do harm to them but the potential to do so was there 24/7. It took very careful management. The other dogs (Nikki, Maggie, Emma, Darby and Kaytee) were perfectly fine with the rabbits even when one hopped around the yard (still always supervised). My Schip-mix went on to kill two wild rabbits after that. It would be impressive if it didn't bother me. Each time she proudly dropped them at my husband's feet. Dogs with high prey drive simply are what they are... |
Mad Dog wrote: Had one of my dogs bitten me or another dog to the point where either of us needed stitches, they'd be dead now. That said, it's not an unheard of thing in dogs. Just a troublesome one in a mixed pack. If you aren't confident you can keep the two of them apart, you may want to consider rehoming the shih-tzu for her safety. Yeah - I don't know if i'd be able to do that either. Kristine I agree. I could never trust my dog after an attack like that, and I don't think I would re-home a dog that did nothing wrong. I am so sad that you are going through this with Gigi. I hope someone has a possible solution for you. |
| This sounds like both prey drive and being noise reactive. Has she ever intentionally bit you, Carol? We each have limits to what we can tolerate or work with so I don't fault anyone if they have to euthanize a biter. I just don't know that Gigi was aggressively focusing on Carol... it sounds to me like she was so focused on the little dog that she was going through anything in her way to get it. The instinct to protect is so strong for us when something like this is happening... I would have done the same thing in trying to protect the small dog. Some dogs are extremely reactive to noise. The same Schip-mix would go after whatever dog was closest to her just at the sound of conflict in another room. She was the first removed if a conflict started so the situation could diffuse. I'd scruff her, then scoop her middle to remove the "problem". Thankful we worked through that with the help of the pack. But Gigi's size makes it impossible to lift her from a situation... |
| Carol, I'm sorry you're going through this. I've met Gigi and she is a sweetheart. I know you love all of your animals so I hope things get worked out some way. |
| Thanks for all the info. Gigi and I were very close. We went everywhere together. She is wonderful with people and has had no problem with dogs at daycare or boarding. She has never biten me before. i got in her way while I was blocking her from the shih tzu. It was horrible to see how mean she was. She really wanted to kill. It was a struggle to the point I was yelling for help from a neighbor. I didnt think I was going to get her to stop. My first reaction was to command her to stop. I had grabbed her neck a fews. Even tried to push her in the pool. Thinking of rehoming her is killing me. I have the dogs seperated now. But that is difficult to keep up for the rest of time. And not fair for shih tzus. I have two shih tzus. Today I went and purchased a muzzle, but it is too big. Going to get another size. It is a strange feeling not to trust a dog i have been so close to for years. My first reaction after I was able to get up, was Gigi has to go. But I remember all the wonderful times we had. On the other hand, I look at my poor shih tzu and feel so bad for him. This cannot happen again. |
| when you were in panic mode it just fueled the fire .. what was bogey doing .. i know she didn't mean to bit you you were just in her way.. did she ever go after the other one? gosh i wish i knew what to tell you.. |
| Thank God Bogey did not join in. He usually does what Gigi does. But this time, he stayed back, away from the situation. Tonight we put a muzzle on her. One of the shih tzus are out with the sheepies. But the injured one does not want to come out of the bedroom. He needs rest and relaxation for now. He is on antibiotics and maybe they are making him tired too. I hope he comes out of this ok mentally. |
| Pam so sad to hear this happened, I have no answers for you, just I agree with Jaci, prey drive instinct and associated noise reaction too as well. I also suspect as you said Gigi and you are tight/close, a majour jealousy factor as well. Maybe not so much attention on her and changing the equalibriam there might help also with her. Your the boss, you ignore her, no affection or attention for awhile, just commands and make her slip down further on the pyramid as far as all in the household is concerned, mum is shared not just mine !!!  . Get someone other then you to feed her, respond to her, outside to potty her etc till she knows her place, when acting OK, a quick pat and attention from you, but dont go overboard, it might help with her responding also to you fussing over the other babies and not so OH SHE IS MY MOM NOT THE OTHERS!!!!Grrrrrrrrr.In the meantime, definately soft muzzle her especially if you are not there to supervise all, also outside when all are outside together for a saftey factor for the others. Hope your little shih-tzu is not affected drastically in temperament and general well being due to gigi and what went on. So sorry to hear a rush to the vets with the the lil man with repairs to him Sometimes hard to fathom what goes through a dogs mind at home, my suspicion is gigi is posessive of you and you have to wean that bond down so the others have a chance to all mingle as a great big and small fur pack. |
| If you are not looking to rehome one of your dogs you are going to have to be on guard at all times. Gates are a wonderful thing and a basket muzzle is a must. Like Kristine said I have a high prey dog. When we first got him, we did have a cat...who had a bad back and did not tolerate touching on his back...right where Gar wanted to bite him. It was not a good mix but somehow with constant watching we made it work. I don't know if you remember the last sheepiepalozza's but Gar ran around with a basket muzzle on alot. If there was a lot of running around, which triggers the prey drive, he would be muzzled. Some people think it is cruel but I look at it as avoiding a situation that could cause a fight. The basket muzzle allows for panting and Gar could drink with it on. I had to order mine because the only ones I could find where the ones that inhibit panting which would lead to overheating and eventually if left on...death. Gigi did not want to hurt you but it sounds like she wanted that shih tzus dead. Was the little one making high pitched barking or crying sounds? To a high prey dog that sounds like wounded prey and the attack mode kicks in. An easy fix is to separate your house into zones. One for the big dogs and one for the little dogs, interchangable with doors inbetween so the dogs can go outside to potty or have one on one time. A basket muzzle if they are going to mingle. |
Carol--so sorry that you are going through this with Gigi. I have no advice--just wanted you to know I am thinking of you.  |
| I'm curious about the aggression. In the situation you described, the small dog could have been in a life threatening incident. I've had a couple of super gentle dogs that reacted to that sort of situation by tring to kill the dog at risk. It was a clear instinct take over. I have a wackadoodle fear bitter that I adopted while doing rescue work. He is hyper and bizarre in certain situations and the sheepdog, many years his junior, will try to aggressively manage him away from us while he is in the excited state. Her complete focus is to take him down when he gets like that. Otherwise there is no aggression going on between them. If it were me, I would have a behavorist evaluate your pack and see just what dynamic is going on. |
| All great advice. Thanks. I have a behaviorist coming today. But she already told me what everyone else has said, there is no training or cure for this and that I must keep her on a muzzle and be vigilant. As suggested to not give Gigi attention and to bring her down the pack ladder, is what I am doing now. It is sad, I find it hard to even look at her. I don't see the the same girl as I saw before. I miss my girl. It is so sad for me it is hurting so much. We have several muzzles now, all soft. None seem to fit perfectly. Will keep working with them and trying all kinds. As for gates, this house does not have a good set up for them. My little shih tzu prefers to stay in the bedroom. He does come outside for a little. Of course Gigi is inside at those times. |
| The bulkier muzzles are often a better choice. Most fabric muzzles I've come across are for short term use like in a vet situation because they can restrict air flow. Dogs are often unable to pant properly. Here's a warning from the Leerburg website- Quote: IMPORTANT! ~READ BEFORE BUYING~ These Cloth Muzzles are designed for short-term use. They should be used as a temporary restraint only! Use only with direct supervision and never leave your pet unattended while wearing a Cloth Muzzle. Failure to do so could result in inhibiting the dog's panting (it's natural cooling mechanism) producing a life threatening situation. You should also be aware that most dogs can still bite while wearing an open-faced muzzle. Dogs wearing a Cloth Muzzle cannot pant or drink water while wearing them. If you are interested in a muzzle designed to be worn for extended periods of time, please check out our Imported Wire Basket Muzzles. Here are some different muzzles... but ask the professional coming in what the best type would be- http://leerburg.com/muzzle.htm Note that dogs can at times remove a muzzle so be sure to always supervise Gigi when she's with your Shih Tzus. |
| I am wondering if you might also want to consider using some herding methods to control Gigi's prey drive. Bella has a strong drive and especially with the lambs and sheep that move quick. My trainer uses the Cappy Pruitt methods which is very gentle and work well this obedience and agility training. You must "claim" the sheep or object as yours and control when and the type of interaction. For example if Bella is to pushy I have to back her off or take her off the sheep. They also have "games" that was practice using our herding stick. I don't to touch her with it but I make her yield right, left, back, forward and stop with a movement of the stick. Eventually it can be done just with hand motions but with the biting issue the stick would help. There is a book that explains all of this obviously geared for sheep herding but I use it when Bella gets pushy with the cat and chases him. "That'll do" to call her off. with her prey drive so high it might be an option to control and harness it. Just a thought. |
| I have no advice but wanted to say I'm so sorry to hear this, I couldn't even imagine what you must be going through, hope something works out for you! |
| I am glad you called in a qualified behaviorist. I agree there is no "cure" for this. You are now committed to managing the situation for the safety of all concerned, including both dogs and humans, forever. That means separation and constantly vigilance. The only other option is for one of them to be rehomed. I don't envy you. Linda Zimmerman & Hudson, Chloe & Kristy |
oesmom2 wrote: All great advice. Thanks. I have a behaviorist coming today. But she already told me what everyone else has said, there is no training or cure for this and that I must keep her on a muzzle and be vigilant. As suggested to not give Gigi attention and to bring her down the pack ladder, is what I am doing now. It is sad, I find it hard to even look at her. I don't see the the same girl as I saw before. I miss my girl. It is so sad for me it is hurting so much. We have several muzzles now, all soft. None seem to fit perfectly. Will keep working with them and trying all kinds. As for gates, this house does not have a good set up for them. My little shih tzu prefers to stay in the bedroom. He does come outside for a little. Of course Gigi is inside at those times. i see how hard it must be ...hugs i know this is killin u |
| I'm so sorry Carol. How sad you have to be in this situation. I'm hoping the behaviorist can help. XO |
| I am so sorry you are going through this A basket muzzle is what you want and pet edge has a platic one that hooks well but always keep them apart when you are not watching. A dog can drink water and sometimes even eat with a basket muzzle |
| The behaviorist was here. She was great. Said all the same things said here. Ron is out getting another muzzle... The basket type. She can never be trusted again around the little ones. One thng she said, was interesting. She stated that since Toby is the only one she has attacked, maybe Toby is sick and we don't know it. Toby was checked at his annual vet exam one month ago and all was fine. However, she said to get a complete blood chemistry done and something else. I understand what she is thinking. That an animal will go for the sick or weakest. |
oesmom2 wrote: That an animal will go for the sick or weakest. I am so sorry you are going through this. It must be so difficult on you and your family. I do believe that statement to be true. |
| Maybe something to consider is the noise of a panicing dog sets Gigi on edge, maybe it is painful to her, maybe just maybe desensitisation could be an option? Think about the statement that it can't be cured, would she have reacted if she were deaf? Think of how Police horses and Dogs are desensitised to crowds and noises especially the horses. |
| Good advice from Pam. Perhaps you could zone your house for both dogs and put a basket muzzle on Gigi when they are together. |
| I have no advice, only sympathy that you are going through this. I hope it all works out the best for everyone. Bless your heart for reaching out, and trying to find answers. |
| So far we are keeping them separated for most of the time. Gigi had her muzzle on last night and we had the shih tzus out too. I was a nervous wreck. I don't trust Gigi even with the muzzle. It is not easy to keep them separated. Hate seeing my little guys looking out at me like why can't we come out too. We are taking turns with them outside. Feeding is separate now. I am so afraid of something happening that I am on edge making sure doors are closed and sure that they are separated. Little Toby is healing and has some energy now. Yay! |
| Glad to hear at least Toby is getting better :/ |
| Carol, Gigi is not "mean" it's just the way she is wired. I would never think of having a smaller dog with my herd of OES unless it was a strong terrier. It's not fair to her breeder to say that. I know because i've been through it. I had an OES imported.......she was the sweetest thing in the world until 3 years old when her hormones 'kicked' in. If it had been up to me, i would never have bred her. But i fulfilled a contract. Her daughter ended up being the same as her. This was Bella that I rehomed as well as her mom. BOTh of them went to homes where they were the only females. That did seem to help with her mom, from what Wendy said Bella never got over it. Personally if it were me i'd make a decision of which one to keep and who goes. I am quite sure her breeder or Rescue would help you in rehoming one or the other. Good luck on any decision. |
| I'm sorry you're going through this Carol. I was happy to hear that Toby was doing better. |
| I never said Gigi is mean. If I somehow relayed that message, I did not intend to. She is not mean. She is very sweet most of the time. My shih tzus were here before we adopted the sheepies. I never thought this would happen with an OES. Everything was great, except for the two times Gigi attacked Toby after he made a squeaky noise. I did not pick up on the warnings. And then the recent incident which scared the heck out of me. Gigi is 3 now. However she was fixed. Do the hormones still kick in? |
oesmom2 wrote: I never said Gigi is mean. If I somehow relayed that message, I did not intend to. She is not mean. She is very sweet most of the time. My shih tzus were here before we adopted the sheepies. I never thought this would happen with an OES. Everything was great, except for the two times Gigi attacked Toby after he made a squeaky noise. I did not pick up on the warnings. And then the recent incident which scared the heck out of me. Gigi is 3 now. However she was fixed. Do the hormones still kick in? No. Prey drive (getting excited by squeaky noises is a part of that - it can sound like injured or distressed prey, thus meaning the dog is that much closer to the "kill") is not related to hormones. My rescue dog has the highest prey drive of any of my dogs and by all accounts she was spayed very young. What Ali is refering to is similar in terms of management issues, but not cause/"drives". If you think about purebred dogs over the (many) years we've selected for many types of dogs to fulfill many types of jobs, many of the functions (except lap dog, obviously, and I would think things like pulling, but Dawn can correct me if I'm wrong) are based to varying degrees on a dog's prey drive: You would probably want a terrier who was bred to kill vermin to have very high prey drive. You would also want a sporting (hunting) dog to have prey drive, but for a different purpose and to a different degree, which is why most (well bred) sporting breeds tend to have soft mouths - they were most often bred to find and/or bring the (dead) prey back to hunter, but it was the hunters job to make the kill. Herding is also a function of prey drive, but there you select for dogs who may use their teeth a bit to move the "prey", but whose job it is to bring the "prey", live and unharmed, to the hunter (the shepherd) - it's not their job to kill, and, in fact, a herding dog who killed or harrassed stock would be culled very quickly in a true working situation . Sighthounds who are bred to chase and scent hounds who are bred to follow their noses are also excellent examples of different forms of prey drive. I.e. all dogs have prey drive to varying degrees. And just like anything else in our dogs, some times their basic instincts, their core personalities if you will, don't necessarily fit in well with our specific life style. So, no, she's not mean. But it doesn't make your situation any less serious or stressful. You've taken some really quick and good steps in the right direction. Fingers crossed that you can work it out. And happy to hear that Toby is doing better. Kristine |
| Well I will add my 5 pence worth in. It seems like too me when the shih tzu maked a loud noise the sheepie attacks & maybe at the the time She might thought the shih tzu was attacking you in the mayhem and was just focused on the shih tzu. It seems that its a bit odd that its the only the one shih tzu. Who is the older dog as well because there seems a lot more too this. Is the other shih tzu female & were the other 2 incidents. I hope you can sort this out & things will get better |
| Toby had his stapes removed today. He is doing ok and he is playing with the other shih stzu now. He is afraid to be near gigi. Bogey and him are fine. We have them separated. at times we attempt tp get them together with Gigi wearing a muzzle. She looks so sad in that. Toby is male four years old and Gigi is 3. My other shih tzu male is 8 and bogey the sheepie is 3, all are fixed. It is a very difficult situation. we are doing our best to make it work. However it is very stressful on all. My shh tzus are living in our bedroom. They don't like it. We take turns outside. The sheepies miss me when i am with the shih tzus. My husband and I see each other at dinner then we each take turns with the divided kids. The thought of rehoming Gigi is making me sick. |
| I wish I could give you a real hug right now. Having spent time with Gigi, like you I am surprised at what she has done. I know how much you love her and can only imagine how much this is hurting you. You guys have had such a rough time in life the last several months, you needed peace and tranquility with your furry family, not this strife. Has the vet given Gigi a thorough check up, bloodwork etc.? I guess I am just hoping that there is some chemical imbalance that can fix this. |
oesmom2 wrote: Toby had his stapes removed today. He is doing ok and he is playing with the other shih stzu now. He is afraid to be near gigi. Bogey and him are fine. We have them separated. at times we attempt tp get them together with Gigi wearing a muzzle. She looks so sad in that. Toby is male four years old and Gigi is 3. My other shih tzu male is 8 and bogey the sheepie is 3, all are fixed. It is a very difficult situation. we are doing our best to make it work. However it is very stressful on all. My shh tzus are living in our bedroom. They don't like it. We take turns outside. The sheepies miss me when i am with the shih tzus. My husband and I see each other at dinner then we each take turns with the divided kids. The thought of rehoming Gigi is making me sick. Carol-glad to hear that Toby is healing physically. This situation must be so stressful and tough on all of you. Thinking of you and hugs to all. |
| I am so sorry to hear about this! You didn't need this on your plate. I know how much you love all your babies it must just be making your heart sick. |
| Carol, I'm just heartbroken for you. I can't imagine being faced with this situation. Sending hugs to you. |
| <The vet told me there is nothing we could do to stop this behavoir and that it will happen again. Just don't know when. He has now noted in her chart, that she is an aggresive dog. I don't think that is a correct label.> Have you thought about hiring a dog trainer/behaviorist? Unfortunately, it's easy for humans to pass the blame, not take any responsibility for the molding and reinforcing of bad behaviors (most of the time, unknowingly) and writing a dog off with a label. All three need to be in on the rehabilitation too - you, your smaller breed dog and the OES. And I'd find another vet. What an idiot. |
| There is a very high probability the screaming noise is the "trigger" to the aggression. It is prey drive. The pack mentality will have the weaker, sick and injured animals culled by the stronger. No one else has mentioned this but this is the same screaming noise made by small children at play. I would be sure to monitor the situation closely if there is any possibility of children screaming nearby. Linda Zimmerman & Hudson, Chloe & Kristy |
| Update. Ron and I were to be away on a vacation for a week. The sheepies were in a dog hotel and the shih tzus home. We did not stay the week. I wanted to return home and continue to look for an answer to our situation. I have written to a very knowledgable sheepie person. Also found another behaviorist trainer. Here is what the behaviorist has to say Good to hear from you. I was taking notes while reading your story. First, I am sorry for what you are going through. I know how distressing these situations are and what a toll it takes on the family as a whole. However, there is absolutely hope. I say that from 6 years of working in home with these kind of cases. I am a Behavior Analyst. I identify all the variables involved and it seems that multiple variables are in play here. Yes, prey drive certainly is an antecedent to the behavior (aggression), however the incident you described that happened about a week ago leads to a hypothesis of this behavior being under the control of multiple antecedent variables. I other words, from what I have read, there are other things going on that are maintaining this behavior. What I do is come out to your home for a 2 hr Initial Consultation (IC). During that time, I perform a direct assessment of the behaviors, go over information with you, provide you with training materials and suggestions and begin training. Prior to the IC, I e-mail you a questionnaire that is comprehensive and have you e-mail it back to me so that I can review the information before our IC appointment. I focus my complete attention on the dogs and your family at the IC rather than paperwork, which is why I e-mail you the questionnaire beforehand. I can understand that your vet and friends in training have advised you that this can’t be fixed. I have no doubt they have your best interest in mind. When people don’t know how to work with these problems, they suggest what they know. I have worked with these problems for years and know how to write behavior plans to work with the dogs. Yes, there are specific techniques I use, all based upon reinforcing correct behavior. Maintenance during training is critical, as your friends have pointed out. I go over that as well. In training, I work with the dogs on a number of exercises to reinforce the behaviors we want to see. The more dogs practice behaviors and have these behaviors reinforced, the more likely you are to see these behaviors again and the old behaviors fade into what we call extinction. It is a behavioral process that does indeed change the brain (I don’t want to get into too much and overwhelm you, lol). I am very honest. Behavior modification is a commitment and I am dedicated to solving problems. I collaborate with your veterinarian, with your consent. I know the stress you are under. I am quite used to walking into households under distress. My suggestion would be for us to set up an initial consultation so that I can perform an assessment and provide you with a proposed treatment plan. I don’t believe your options are limited to complete separation, muzzling or re-homing, though do practice separation now for safety. I have hope! Any thoughts? |
| I like that he/she is optimistic but realistic in terms of how much of a commitment this will take from you. I would be leery of someone who promised to walk in and fix the situation quickly (that only works on tv!). I say go for it, as long as they can give you a work plan which is committed to ensuring the safety of all the dogs and people involved. Gigi did have a checkup at the vet to make sure that there is nothing going on health wise before you start working on the behaviour? It can't hurt to at least have the assessment done. I am rooting for all of you to find a solution that keeps everyone safe and happy. And in the end, if there is no workable solution, you know that you have given it your all. |
| I say go for it...you have nothing to lose. Sounds like a knowledgeable person who knows what they are doing. Friends "try" to help, professionals "do" help. Just a thought, check out credentials first. |
| Wouldn't hurt to have the consultation and go from there... Good luck! |
| Carol I'm really sorry to hear about the situation with Gigi. I hope you are able to work things out with help from the behaviorist. I remember several years back I had a foster girl who had an extremely high prey drive. She killed two neighborhood cats who had the misfortune of getting into our fenced back yard. She was placed in a home as an only dog with a family who did not have small children or any small animals and she's done very well. I know the idea of re-homing Gigi is heart-breaking, but if you need help with her, please let us know. |
| Thanks all. Tammy thanks. I am hoping this trainer can help. We will see. She is coming this Friday at noon for two hours. Will keep all posted. |
| Fingers crossed...good luck!! |
| Did a lot of research on the behavourist and learned she is not what she says she is on her site. Also was able to get info on her from a pitbul forum. An owner had an awful experience with her. I did learn of a man who is an hour away from our home. He has 20 years experience, written books and has great reputation. So he is coming here tomorrow. Will keep you posted. |
Good luck, Carol.  |
| good luck tomorrow will call ya |
| Thinking good thoughts for your family tomorrow. Laurie and Oscar |
| Glad you found out she wasn't who she said she was and that you were able to find someone that seems to know what he's doing. |
| Carol--good for you for doing your research! Good luck tomorrow-- that all goes well for you all! |
| First time ive read this thread. I ca only imagine what your going through right now I think you have done well finding behavourists, and hopefully things will get sorted out. Its interesting how gigi is only attacking the one shih tzu... Maybe she feel s threatened by the shih tzus noises? Its sad, but it is best to keep the muzzle on gigi when they are in contact with each other, and to give both dogs the equal amount of attention. I dont believe that re-homing a dogis always the answer. There is always something that can be done first. I hope everything goes well, and that both you and the little one stay safe and well.  |
| Thinking of you today. Fingers crossed that all goes well with the behaviorist. GOOD JOB researching and discarding the first one. Please let us know how your session goes. Linda Zimmerman & Hudson, Chloe & Kristy |
| Hope it goes well Carol and hope there's a way forward! |
| The trainer came today. He is totally different than anyh other trainers I have worked with. I understand his theory. We all know we are to be the leader. He does not use treats only control by leash and collar. No commands. He wants us to communicate through our minds. Huh? Connect with the dogs mentally. I get that. He had me first work with bogey. Holding him on lead and pushing him into a sit then pulling the lead sharply. I then had to push down on his bask and pull up on lead. The trainer says thisbis how we show them we are the owners of everything. Here is his site so if you want more info. http://www.k9pack.com/ I don't like this. We then did gigi. Both Gigi and bogey are great on lead so pushing them and pulling them is strange. He wants me to to pull on their collars just when i walk by the dogs. I have also been in contact with trainers I know and some others in Orlando. All say what has been said here and what the first behaviorist here told me " this is not something to be trained out, may be managed bu still have to be on constant alert.". One the trainers in Orlando is sending Gigi's story to a vet who specializes in behavior. I am hoping to hear something next week. We will take Gigi to the vet in Orlando if she wants to see her. One also suggested that maybe Gigi's hip dysphasia has something to do with this. I did not see any sign of pain. The shih tzus are of course still separated. They hate the bedroom. We are stressed and today did not help. |
| #### CAROL SO SORRY |
| I sent the trainer's site to a trainer in Orlando and here is what she said I can share with you what I saw there. This will sound awful- but I need to give you my professional opinion and would be remiss in not letting you know what I think. The video consists of dealing with a dog who is food-agressive, and what he is doing to change that behavior. The first thing that jumped out at me was the constant pulling of the dog via the collar. It's worrisome since collar use in this manner can cause physical issues with the trachea and spinal cord, and that worried me a bit. This was also evidenced by the amount of swallowing the dog was doing- this is a physiological response to the pressure on its neck- not healthy in the least. There were also a couple of times where he pulled hard enough on the leash to lift the dog's front paws off the ground- not healthy in the least. The next thing I noticed was that unfortunately, he's not very well versed on canine body language. The dog in the video was putting forth all types of stress signals: mouth closed, tongue flicking out his mouth, avoiding looking at the handler. This dog was stressed, all the while he was stating that it was all to get the dog into a calm, follower state. A dog under that type of handling that lays down or stops struggling is a dog that has reached learned helplessness- essentially has shut down. The issue is not solved. The dog also displayed the tail curled under its hind legs, curling a paw up (kind of what we picture a pointer doing). All of these are signs that the dog is under stress. The importance of recognizing these signs is that if a dog is stressed out, there is so much adrenaline and cortisol flowing through the brain that there is no learning taking place- the dog feels threatened. It's like trying to learn calculus with a hungry mountain lion roaming the room you are in- physiologically there is no difference. Additionally, studies have indeed found that when a dog is under stress, adding stress (from the dog's point of view) will make things worse. He also states in his website the importance of being the pack leader - something that science has also found to be incorrect (yes, dogs need limits and need to understand what is expected of them, but it is not done through a leader/follower or dominance/submissiveness manner). As a matter of fact, that idea is based on a flawed study done in the 1940s. He keeps mentioning authority/follower relationship- something that is not backed by canine behavior science. Canine behavior science and applied behavior analysis stress the importance in first making the dog feel safe before any modification of behavior can be learned. It is not permissive or weak, rather it is consistent and clear so that the dog actually understands, without having to square off with him. When done correctly, it works and gets to the root of the behavior. I would be very very careful in applying this methodology- while it can make it seem as though the dog is no longer displaying the problem behavior, it has actually only been repressed, and like a pressure cooker, will eventually resurface with drastic consequences, due the the stress the animal is under. Again, I apologize for having to be so direct about it, but need to let you know of this |
| Oh...Carol,,,,I am so sorry you are going through this...I also know you love all your furbabies ~~ and what a horrible experience to have to go through. I wish I could give you a solution.....I wish I could give you a face to face HUGG......I can only tell you that I am thinking about you...and if you need to talk, call...text...or pm ME... |
| Carol--how disappointing for you today. Finding the right person to help can be a challenge. Last year after Sheepiepalooza when Baxter had behaved so badly--my vet told me they were associated with a Vet Behaviorist that they could refer me to for an appointment and the only way to get an appointment with her was to be referred. Maybe your Vet has someone like that they can refer you to. In our case the lady Vet is based in Knoxville at the University of Tennessee--but travels to Nashville and other cities about every other month. It might take you a little while to get with the right person but it may be worth the wait to see the right person. Thinking of you! |
| That trainer has been fired of course. There is a behavior vet in Orlando whonis highly regarded. However, I have been in contact with a trainer who is closely aligned with her and here is what I have been told. "Carol, again, I need to reiterate the importance of keeping Gigi away from the little ones. The fact that she's already caused serious enough damage to require veterinary attention means that you need to treat the situation as though she will do so again if given the chance. I know that it's not what you would like to hear and I appreciate that it's a heart-wrenching thing to endure. I would like for you to understand that any behavior modification program consists of management of the environment to prevent the reoccurrence of the issues + the implementation of a behavior program to teach Gigi alternate behaviors. Will you ever be able to completely trust Gigi again? In all honesty, since she's already hurt, then it can happen again if the conditions are right. A behavior modification program may be able to help curb these tendencies, but you can't let your guard down. I'm sorry." Our hearts are breaking. No matter what behavior modification we can do, we still need to be extremely careful. It is not good for the shih tzus nor Gigi. We have fear of an accident such as one of us opening a door and a shih tzu gets out. It is a very difficult situation. Many of you know how much I love Gigi and how close we are. But not trusting her is not a good feeling. I cannot eat or sleep. This is heart-wrenching. |
| Oh Carol, my heart just breaks for you. |
| So so sorry. |
| I'm so sorry you are faced with such a difficult situation! |
| hope things get better. It will work out in the long run & fingers crossed for you all. |
| I have written an update in the general chit chat section. I did not know where to post it. Thanks to all for your words of advice and support. |
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