Mange in new puppy
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Guest wrote: We got our new puppy yesterday. We paid top dollar for this puppy ($1500) and have been waiting for her for two months. The breeder was not very helpful all along, and the puppy came with just a bag of dog food. The breeder had broken his neck (this we know is legit) so we gave him the benefit of the doubt when he was slow to respond to email and only answered direct questions. The puppy started scratching incessantly as soon as she was with us. She is covered in scabs on her rear, legs and ear tips. I suspect she has mange. Not ony that, but the breeder only told us the day before she was coming that she had a hernia. I have no idea what to do. The health guarantee only includes one year for hips, eyes and thyroid. I haven't seen any papers for the puppy, and only have an email saying that the parents' hips were both "good". I feel so angry at myself mostly. I did research the breeder and there were many glowing reports and nothing negative at all, but once I had put down the deposit I set aside my reservations. Hubby is taking her to the vet tomorrow. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Should we call someone to investigate this breeder? First thing to do is get your vet to make a firm diagnosis on your puppy's problem. Then ask his opinion on what to do. I myself would say that any contact with the breeder should start out with a nice phone call from you first with concrete documentation from your vet. Most puppies are sold with a clause in the contract that you have a specific amount of time to have your vet examine the puppy & if there is anything wrong with the puppy you can return it for a refund. See what the breeder offers 1st. Then take it from there. I don't know if an investigation would do any good. I guess it depends on where you live & what the laws are. |
| I hope your baby doesn't have mange~~~ Take Marilyn's advice!!! She is a quality breeder and she knows what she is talking about. And, I may be wrong, but the hernia is not a big deal unless it is big...Heart came to me with a hernia, my vet said not to worry, they would fix it when she got spayed. And she is fine now. Here is hoping that everything turns out...keep up posted.. and when things settle down, we would love to see pictures of your pup~~~  |
| Great advice from Marilyn, get the diagnosis first. Assumptions may cause hard feelings and not get you anywhere. It could be something less scary sounding, such as a grass or food allergy or even a staph infection. Demodex or Sarcoptic mange is something treatable but not the way you want to start out with your new pup. As far as the hernia, one of our first dogs had an umbilical hernia and it was very minor. Like an "outie" belly button. It never needed it to be surgically corrected, our vet just kept watch over it and all was fine in the dog's almost 14 yrs. of life. Is this a breeder from OESCA Breeder Referral List?  |
| Thanks everyone, it was good advice. There were no "critters" to be seen, but I've read that they are difficult to find anyways. The vet said it could be a food allergy or a multitude of other things. We need to bathe her every second day, she gave her some anti-itching meds and we are changing her food. I hope this works. She said skin problems are hard to manage because they are caused by many things. I'm just frustrated because it was pretty evident she had this problem for a while (one patch is the size of a silver dollar) and they missed it. The visit yesterday was $140 and who knows how long this process will go on? |
| Contact the breeder. This skin trouble may prove to be easily treated. But... if you've only had this pup for two days it seems they should be covering these bills or giving you the option return this pup because from what you've shared, this puppy may not have been fit for sale. $1,500 for a puppy already showing possible signs of allergies is concerning. And yes... allergies can sometimes be very difficult to pinpoint and very frustrating to treat. A simple pimple on the nose and frequent chewing of the right hock as a wee pup turned into thousands of dollars spent in an attempt to identify an unidentifiable allergy problem... that doesn't include the special home cooked ostrich diet. I'd correspond in writing with the breeder so they know what's going on. |
| I would send her back immediately, and demand a full refund plus reimbursement for medical expenses. Young puppies have immature immune systems and if under stress (shipping, for instance - there is evidence that puppies who are kept at home with the breeder/littermates till 12 weeks old grow up to have stronger immune systems, all else being equal, than those who leave home earlier) or in some cases "just because" can develop evidence of demodectic ("puppy") mange (all dogs carry these mites, it's a compromised immune system that allows them to flourish: a friend's 10 mos old rescue dog came with about 75% of her hair missing), though the cases I've heard/read about in young puppies have been very minor - maybe a single bald spot no bigger than a silver dollar, no scratching etc. resolves itself easily as puppy matures. So it may or may not be mange. Allergies in a puppy this young would be unusual. Vets some times look at itchy puppy and upset owner and indiscriminantly start throwiing antibiotics and sterioids at the problem, effectively destroying the puppy's immune system in the process, and now you end up with a dog who may have had a less than optimal immune system, or may simply have been (already) going through stress, whose immune system is demolished for life, with the accompanying miserable dog & owner. Let the breeder deal with the problem. Besides, no self-respecting breeder sends out a puppy in this kind of condition. If she arrived this way, SEND HER BACK. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: I would send her back immediately, and demand a full refund plus reimbursement for medical expenses. Young puppies have immature immune systems and if under stress (shipping, for instance - there is evidence that puppies who are kept at home with the breeder/littermates till 12 weeks old grow up to have stronger immune systems, all else being equal, than those who leave home earlier) or in some cases "just because" can develop evidence of demodectic ("puppy") mange (all dogs carry these mites, it's a compromised immune system that allows them to flourish: a friend's 10 mos old rescue dog came with about 75% of her hair missing), though the cases I've heard/read about in young puppies have been very minor - maybe a single bald spot no bigger than a silver dollar, no scratching etc. resolves itself easily as puppy matures. So it may or may not be mange. Allergies in a puppy this young would be unusual. Vets some times look at itchy puppy and upset owner and indiscriminantly start throwiing antibiotics and sterioids at the problem, effectively destroying the puppy's immune system in the process, and now you end up with a dog who may have had a less than optimal immune system, or may simply have been (already) going through stress, whose immune system is demolished for life, with the accompanying miserable dog & owner. Let the breeder deal with the problem. Besides, no self-respecting breeder sends out a puppy in this kind of condition. If she arrived this way, SEND HER BACK. Kristine Ditto. |
| This is just my opinion and I am not in the medical field... As Kristine says, be very careful with her immune system... the first antibiotic for mine was at just over a year of age. First approach is topical whenever possible. Frequent baths to clear the skin and thorough drying along with appropriate topicals to help control the condition. If things have gotten way past out of control, sometimes there is no choice but to treat with antibiotics. Steroids should be an absolute last resort and only if a dog is truly suffering or there are no other options. If you have had to resort to antibiotics and this first round does not clear it up or it recurs, a culture should be requested to identify the bacteria and the specific antibiotic group that will be effective. Never allow a vet to just throw a different antibiotic at it to see if it fixes the problem. You need to treat long enough so you don't just leave the condition smoldering and ready to flare again once antibiotics are stopped. So you need to treat with the appropriate antibiotic and long enough to eliminate it. If it recurs despite having cultured/biopsied and being on the right antibiotic as in my dog's case... then you're likely dealing with much bigger problems. Whoever ends up with this baby, either you or the breeder, if this does not fix her problems, I'd get her to a board certified veterinary dermatologist. Don't mess around with it. As pet owners, the only thing we really have much control over is what and how much we feed our dogs. Transition her slowly to the new food so she doesn't end up with digestive issues on top of the skin problems. Your pup may quickly recover and we all are hoping this is the case because she absolutely deserves to be healthy and happy... but not at your expense. Harden your heart, return her and allow the breeder to figure this out. And if you also paid to have her flown to you, I'd be talking with or reporting the veterinarian who did the mandatory pre-flight health check.  |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mange I hope this link works for you,if not,I found it by typing in "Mange" in Google. Robin |
| Hi there, That gives us lots to think about. The first vet we went to did not want to give her mange meds (couldn't see mites, but that is common) until we had tried food allergy remedies. So we spent $140 on different food, and put her on Vanectyl-P, an antihistamine and steroid combo. It made her really thirsty and hungry but did nothing for the scratching. Also this puppy has a serious aggression issue. When we pet her when she has something, she has half a dozen times gone stiff, bared her teeth, growled low, eyeballed us, and sank her teeth into us deeply, causing bleeding. It's quite scary. Last night I looked into the aggression issue online and found Susan Bulanda's animal behavior site, which was horribly informative. We decided we might need to return this puppy, and my daughter and I cried oceans of tears. We just lost our English setter in February and were devastated. This new, happy puppy was supposed to help heal our wound and bring a positive light into our lives. I then looked up the meds she is on and found aggression is a side effect. I am hoping fervently that this is what has caused the aggression. I went back to the vet today and he strongly suspects mange (again, microscopic view not conclusive). He put her on Revolution, and now I am watching her for signs of the genetic mutation showing up. This experience is one of the worst things I have ever gone through. I am exhausted and heartsick. The breeder did not return my email about it. He insists his dogs are fine and that stress from the flight is the culprit. Your support is the about the only positive thing happening at all. I will never, ever again have a dog sent to us from a place I can't visit. This probably means no OES, as no one anywhere near us breeds them. I am just so very sad. |
| I am so sorry. I presume the vet told you that once started on &^%! steroids you can't just stop, you have to wean gradually? But get her off that crap as quickly as you safely can as surpressing her immune system (further - which is what the steroids do) is most likely just going to give the mites, if she has them, a turbo boost. Hopefully getting her off the Vanectyl-P will help her disposition as well. That and potentially being miserably itchy probably isn't doing much to promote a sunny disposition, though only time will tell. If she carries the MDRI mutation, you should know pretty quickly, and typically not in a good way, though perhaps protocols have changed. A friend's rescue dog who was treated for mange was tested first, turned out she carries one copy of the mutation (even carrying one copy makes the dog susceptible to the multi-drug sensitivity) and still treated safely. On the plus side it doesn't appear that the MDRI mutation is terribly frequent in the breed - she'd have to be very unlucky to have the mutation. Fingers crossed for her and you and your daughter. Kristine |
| Since this puppy has mange we contacted the breeder and told him that he either takes her back and pays our expenses and returns our money, or we keep her and he reimburses us for most of the cost of the puppy. Since it was going to cost him the same either way, and he doesn't really want a puppy back with mange, he has agreed to pay us back most of the cost of the puppy. It's definitely a compromise. We are just so attached to her and she is wonderful in every other way. Now to get this house clean somehow! Does anyone know how long it takes for the ivermectin to kill the mites? |
| That's not a bad compromise. Good for you for standing your ground. I'm presuming it's demodectic mange, which means it's not contagious, thank god, and the ivermectin will be killing them off/weakening them. so.... Not that it isn't good to clean one's house, what I'm doing this weekend. But not because of unwanted critters, of that's what you were referring to? I think you should start to see improvement in the next week to two, in terms of the itching and so on. But, depending on the severity of the condition, it could take months to truly get back to normal (hair growing back in). Still, as long as it's going in the right direction, hopefully that won't be a horrible ordeal. Do try to avoid/put off vaccines as best you can in the interim as we already know her immune system is compromised. There's a trade-off there, you certainly can't put them off forever. But please try to be as careful as you can. Fingers crossed  Kristine |
| you might also want to search on line for a holistic option. Bella rolled in a fox caucus and picked up saprophytic mange. I didn't want to risk the ivermectin so opted for the more expensive meds. At the same time I found a wash solution which helped and I think resolved it a lot faster. I found it on line and it is a mix of hydrogen peroxide, water, and borax laundry detergent. You basically wash the dog in the solution and let it air dry. NO rinsing the solution off. She was cured in 5 weeks and it really helped with her itching. |
| forgot to mention they get a bath in the stuff every 2-3 days and make sure the solution gets down to the skin and massage it in. |
| Thanks, everyone, it's all under control now. Now to get going with the training, this little girl is a nipper! I'm okay with that, it's a problem I can handle! |
canadachris wrote: Thanks, everyone, it's all under control now. Now to get going with the training, this little girl is a nipper! I'm okay with that, it's a problem I can handle! That is terrific news. I am looking forward to some pictures from you, now that she is all better! |
| I'd do what your vet suggests. I think the medical advice here is well-meaning, but a bit overwhelming and may be inaccurate or cause deeper harm. I have a friend that took on two dogs with severe mange and they both recovered amazingly, it just took time. Of course, each dog will have an individual response to it and the treatments - and you're not sure what it is yet 100% Glad you will be getting some money back - hope he follows through with that promise. Hard start for your family, but bet 2 years from now you will be very happy you went the length for her. Bless your heart for that. |
| The mange is overwith thank goodness, what a nightmare. However the breeder did not follow through on his agreement to return part of our purchase price. He sent "something" in the mail, we had a tracking number but it was stopped in another city along the way, and we never got it. He is not answering our calls or emails now and we have a sinking feeling that we are out of options. Small claims is not an option as he lives thousands of miles away from us and you have to be in the city of the person you are suing. I want to yell his name from the rooftops, but I am worried about getting sued ourselves. So frustrating! |
| any pics of you puppy |
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