Fighting at home
This weekend Patti and Molly had a fight that resulted in Molly getting 9 staples below her eye. I set a bag of ski gear (no food in bag) on the floor and they both went to sniff it, and Patti went after Molly, not even a warning growl. While Molly isn't one to start a fight, she won't back down from one. I would say they get into altercations like this 3-4 times a year. Typically it's a lot of noise and nothing that requires an emergency vet visit. Fights always freak me out, but this one more so as Molly currently looks like she met a feral cat. Here's what I've been trying to do for the last couple months. A local trainer has given me a couple things to try to show that I'm in charge, rolling her on her back and waiting for her to break eye contact. I've been spending extra time with her alone walking on leash at my side and doing various commands. She is actually remarkably obedient on leash. If anyone has been in situations like this, I'd really like any advice you have. Lisa |
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| Personally, I think what are you thinking is dominance, is, in fact, a severe anxiety. I think that this trainer's methods may be contributing to your issues. The "alpha roll" that you are talking about is controversial, and some behaviorists think it makes aggressive behavior worse, by forcing an already anxious dog into a confrontation that they would rather avoid. As I have learned on this forum, growls are a warning. When you punish a dog for warning you that they are uncomfortable, they can skip that step and go right to a bite. Oscar is very high maintenance, both health-wise, and behaviorally. When he was a puppy, I started out using a heavy handed training approach, and grew quickly frustrated when all that did was amp up his poor behavior. My frustration and tension led to more anxiety on his part, and round and round we went. I finally decided that I was practicing the definition of insanity: trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.  I changed to almost exclusively positive reinforcement, as Oscar is incredibly food motivated. "Calm" and "consistency" became my buzzwords. I would repeat them over and over when Oscar was misbehaving. Instead of escalating things, I took it down a notch. It worked. Now that a serious bite has occurred, it might be time to bring in a behaviorist, rather than a trainer, someone who can assess your dog, and help you spot trouble before it starts. I've never had a dog with this issue, but I know others on the forum have, and will certainly chime in to help. Laurie and Oscar |
| Hi, I'm sorry this happend and I agree fights can be scary and especially in this case where blood was drawn. Still saying that, the cut could have been still accidental in the throes of the fight and not intentional. (kinda hard to explain but I think you sorta understand what I mean.) Just the other day I was thinking about the varied training methods and how they have changed over the years. Twenty five years ago the" alpha role" was common place of what was taught in obedience school. I used it with Shaggy (which I realize as a formally abused dog was a no no) but I didn't know that then. She did horrible in that obedience training. The next obedience classes I signed her up for was taught the complete opposite - all about positive reinforcement and she thrived on that. She eventually become a therapy dog. In all I've taken my last six dogs (not including Gilligan) to various trainers and their methods. So, I've had the opportunity to view firsthand a variety of training methods and I only realized later that not all were good or some were "old school" as there has been so much research done on the ways dogs think that as the years go by - different training methods are used. The "alpha role" is considered old school. * Alpha role refers to owner placing the dog on his back and holding him/her down as a dog would to another dog to establish dominance. Not to be confused with alpha status which I speak about later in my post between two dogs or more dogs. When Ellen (sadstray post) mentioned her dogs fighting I said babygates was the way to go. I later said, while I use them in my current home to prevent access to upstairs (the cats domain) what I previously used them for was as barriers amongst gnashing teeth in my previous home. They were loose and I was able to grab them at a moments notice and place them between two potential combatants. Sometimes if one dog has a hold on another dog and you pull them away it's when a tear happens (as might have been the case with Molly) which is what I meant about the blood being drawn being accidental. It may also be (as happens frequently in the animal kingdom) that the Alpha is now getting old and the up and coming Alpha sense the frailty and challenges the Old one for dominant status in the household. As with all my guys I have seen this happen often. If they are really old they relenquish it without a battle or may offer some protest but know that the other one is stronger and so they let it go. Your Molly may not be ready to "let it go" just yet. When Shaggy passed away, Blue stepped into the Alpha role as Merlin was only a 2month old pup. Blue was the pre-existing older dog and should have naturally become Alpha but was never comfortable in the role. At six months, (this is extremely unusual for a pup this young to challenge but Merlin is very dominant). Merlin challenged, Blue showed teeth and in a split second Merlin had him down on his back with his paw over belly and drew his face close to Blue. Blue on his belly was giving him the belly up -aka I give up sign and Merlin after the close to face snarl let him up. I knew then - that it had been a fair fight and no blood was drawn and it was over in a split second. From that moment on , Blue always aknowleged Merlin's status. Things may have continued to escalate if Blue had decided to stand his ground or they may have continued another day. However, Blue was 15 and was submissive so from that moment on they were the best of friends. If Merlin walks into a room and they have bones...my boys will drop theirs and walk away allowing Merlin to have them. They always let him go out the door first and they never go past him on walks - he's always first. Saying that however, I am the one who is his boss and go out the door first and can take bones out of his mouth. It's important to establish in a housefull of dogs that utimately the upright is the Alpha B as I am in my house. :O) Then Panda entered the picture and Blue did not want him to be of higher status and the battles were always between those two. However, as I knew the potential I was always able to separate them before any fight happened. Intrestingly enough however, Merlin always came running to Blue's side and thus Panda would put his head down and walk away. Eventually they tolerated one another. Then Snoop came along....and while he and Merlin were best buds from day one when he arrived as a tiny pup. Merlin -ever the dominant one made sure Snoop knew that he was the alpha. Snoop went along with it until he turned 18 months. It was over a piece of dropped pizza. All the others would drop something ...toy , food...if Merlin wanted it. He never had to do anything but stand there and the other dogs would immediately acknowledge his alpha status. Except this one time...Snoop probably thought, "No way" I'm not and Merlin attacked him. Panda came running and sided with Merlin and I was home alone trying to separate 3 fighting boys. Some people might be afraid of separating a fighting Pitbull but as I had him as a pup he immediately listened to me when I said Release (it's also a falsehood they have locking jaws) it was Merlin who kept going for him. Panda was nipping him from behind. I managed to get Panda outside and using a chair I blocked Merlin and managed to get Snoop in the bathroom. I was shaking. It's horrible to see a dog fight and I was nervous afterwards in case it happened again. I think it would have continued but for Snoop realizing that Merlin was top dog and was not going to back down. Snoop went back to acknowledging Merlin because if he hadn't the fights would continue. Now saying all of that, some members here don't believe in Alpha status and I respect their opinions too as there are many people here with valuable info ..just happens that I believe in it as I've seen it firsthand with my dogs. Some dogs get along famously with others and they never ever have a problem. Merlin while he plays well with others is also very dominant and will make sure all the others are of lower status than him. If they don't challenge him - there is no problem. Gilligan, was such a sweet soul that Merlin never bothered him as he probably saw he was very submissive . I'm thinking that Molly may have been the one who was dominant and Patti viewing Molly as aging, finally challenged her. They may have also been having "issues" with one another that are easy to miss and the bag on the floor and both getting into each others face was the final straw. Perhaps, something else happened earlier in the day or one was stressed about something else and sometimes dogs out of frustration attack the one closest to them, even if they had nothing to do with the source of their frustration. I think I'd search for a behaviorist like was mentioned and also become super caution and watch them at all times and watch for signs they are becoming agitated. Perhaps this fight will show Patti in a new role or if not then perhaps the fights may continue. However, as a behaviorist can observe the behavior first hand they will be able to give you ideas on what to look for. Distraction is a great tool when you see dogs are becoming stressed. Okay I'll stop now...good luck to you and I hope you get some more info from others. I always tell people to go with their gut...take info from everywhere and follow what you think feels right for you and your stituation. All dogs and homes, scenerios are different so what works for one ,,,may not necessarily work for another. I don't have all the answers and I only relate what I have seen my boys do and have done and my past experiences. However, as I've said , each are unique so go with what feels right to you as you know your girls best. |
| Thank you for your posts Laurie and Marianne! I appreciate you taking the time to offer advice and you both brought up points I hadn't thought about. I clearly haven't seen improvement from the alpha roll so no more of that. I think it's entirely possible that Patti does have anxiety issues. As I mentioned, I don't know what happened in her first 2 years of life, but socialization definitely didn't happen. For example, Patti was at the local doggy day care several months ago and bit the ear of a sleeping geriatric hound. Marianne's post made me realize that there was a trigger before the fight: Molly was getting her annual spring hair cut, which she absolutely hates. And because Patti is not at all helpful during these times, I locked her inside the house while Molly and I were outside. So a stressor for Patti too. There is still tension between them. Molly is acting timid. Granted 9 staples on the face can't feel good. Patti is occassionally growling at Molly, but it's not escalating. I haven't left them alone together and won't at least until Molly's face is recovered. We went for our usual off leash walk last night and they were both fine running around together and being near each other. They have never had an altercation without me being present (knock on wood). At least I haven't seen any indication of one. This has made me think that Patti is possessive, possibly slightly obsessed, with me. I suppose that would support the anxiety theory. Laurie mentioned that without growling things may escalate without warning. I never thought about that. So when Patti does growl, how should I handle it? Do I reward the positive behavior and ignore the growls in hopes that they become fewer and farther between? I'm going to ask my vet for a recommendation for a behaviorist. Unfortunately I'm in a pretty remote area, so I probably won't be able to find one to come to my house. Again, thank you for your advice and support! |
| Those are wonderful suggestions. We have 3 dogs. Gideon hound 8 yrs, Ritz wolf hybrid 2 yrs, Lily oes 1 yr. The 3 of them have never fought each other. I have a suggestion to reverse the damage and anxiety about being forced on her back. Ritz has been a little bit of challenge in raising him because of the wolf in him. We decided when we got him we would train him in nothing but positive renforcement. Hybrids do what they want, when they want and when we got him as a pup that was evident. He was cocky, had no fear and was extremely dominant. He absolutely hated being rolled on his back (still kind of does) the way we trained him to roll on his back without learning to be fearful is we would get him to lay down and start petting his tummy, he eventually started to lay on his side. We would give him a treat. Eventually he would flop on his side to get belly rubbings and we slowely rolled him on his back for those oh so good belly pets. When he would roll over on his own for petting he would get a treat. Being on his back still isnt his favorite but as long as hes getting pets its fine with him. |
| Why isn't Patti recognizing you as the dominant part of the 3 some? Have you been a "typical" pet owner trying to equate human behavior with dog behavior? It doesn't work. Dog psychology is different than humans. You have an older dog, Molly, who was used to being top dog and in comes Patti with all her issues and poor socializing. You assumed they'd be best buds........you should have reinforced your top dog position from the start. Their walking together shows they respect Mr. Leash on walks but when left to their own do you exert positive leadership? Do you make them sit and wait for their food?....greet you only once you give them permission to greet you?... do you correct bad body language (you often can see trouble brewing before anything is growled)? Do you follow through with your warnings? Are they getting enough exercise, especially Patti? She's still young and needs those legs worked off from time to time as it relaxes the mind as well. I don't know how much Molly can tolerate......being a Wheatie.....maybe a fair amount. Patti is not for dog parks or around other dogs.........she doesn't have the social skills and the time from for learning those is gone. You can improve them but never be trustworthy. Remember, you are Large and In Charge but also a Kind Dictator. You reward good behavior, not bad........soothing ruffled feathers with cooing only reinforces bad actions. When a dog is hyper excited such as after a fight, they need time to settle, their brain needs to disengage...shift gears. Learn triggers and avoid initially and gradually work through them in a positive manner. There may be some tips on the web on positive training and pet behavior. Since you are rural you may have to research these on your own. How rural? Granted if you are up in the San Juans or around Craig, probably not a lot of dog behaviorists there. |
| SheepieBoss, I'm actually not convinced that Molly ever thought she was top dog. She has never been the one to start a fight. And her body language, even before Saturday's fight, has always leaned towards submissive. Patti is complicated. She listens to me, whether on or off leash. I call her and she comes running. They both sit for their food and treats. When Patti gets grumpy she goes to time out. She doesn't and has never beed coddled for being ill behaved. They get daily exercise, rain or shine or blizzard. Typically they get off leash walks as we are lucky enough to live in a place (Gunnison) where we can get away from crowds. No, I would not take Patti to a dog park. But encountering the occassional dog on trail has not been problematic. In fact she actually has dog friends that she goes on walks with. And her nubby tail is wagging when she sees them. |
| I am no animal behaviorist but I have had a lot of sheepdogs over the years. Most pairs have just been big goofy friends but the current pair of males was different from the beginning. The are inseparable about most activities but are competitive over some things. Both are rescues (as have been almost all of my other OES) and these two got into occasional fights for nearly three years after Toby, then 18 mos, joined Charlie, then 3 years old. I had one trip to the vet with puncture wounds and another to the human doctor when I stupidly tried to pull them apart with my hands. Not fun. Neither dog had a lot of socialization before they came to us. Things have settled down for the past couple of years (and after we rescued another dog, a female Lab). No more fights but still a lot of posturing once in awhile with the boys. I learned what sets them off and now avoid the triggers: feed them in separate rooms, don't throw toys or treats that they both go after, show both attention (though usually Charlie gets his first). While anxiety may have played a part in the early relationship (Toby is still a pretty insecure dog after having spent his first year outside tied up), dominance has been the primary problem. Charlie feels he has a right to all treats, all attention, and would generally bully Toby around although he never instigated the actual fights. That was Toby when he got pushed too far. Interestingly, when the female lab, Kaylee, came into the picture, the one and only time the two boys got into a fight (over who could play with her, I think), she immediately jumped between them, whirling and snapping to drive them apart. She was not gentle about it either, coming away with a bit of hair from one of them, and making it clear that she was not going to put up with any fighting between them. They both looked stunned and immediately backed off. I think that there is one situation when putting a dog into a submissive position (call it an alpha roll or something else) is appropriate. That is immediately after breaking up a fight but while the two dogs are still worked up and full of adrenaline. Once they are apart (not during the fight, certainly) get the dogs into a submissive position on the ground and get their full attention on you as master and let it be known that you will tolerate NO fighting between them. Maybe I learned that from Kaylee. The only caveat is to make sure neither is a strange dog but ones who already recognize YOUR dominant position. |
| Hi Again, I'm glad I was able to help in a small way and yes, I agree, some dogs are complicated and have had previous "issues" which affects their current behaviors. I'm also thinking I hope people don't think I have a bunch of fighting male dogs at my home as there were only those two incidences Blue vs Merlin, that didn't escalate into a fight but had Merlin making Blue flip onto his back to show submission and he immediately let him up. (The difference between dominance and aggression ) That happened aprox 8 yrs ago. and Merlin vs Snoop - This turned into a full on fight as Snoop didn't immediately back down. That happened over two years ago and have continued to be best friends. However, not taking chances they are in different rooms when I'm not home to supervise...just in case. Panda vs Blue - This never got past the point of body language and postering as I was able to re-direct before it escalated into a fight. Panda arrived as a 3 yr old rescue with lots of "issues". Blue was isolated from others and lived outdoors for the first year of his life in my neighbors yard. I moved and found out she left him at a shelter and went and adopted him. Eventually, they learned to tolerate one another and even slept together on the couch. Blue lived to the grand ole age of 19. Panda is currently nearing 12. When Panda arrived I used to walk 3 different combos daily, Panda-Merlin, Blue-Panda, Blue-Merlin. Dunno if that was what did the trick but I've often read dogs that have fun together (in neutral territory) that it carries over to their home life. I do the same now with my three boys Merlin, Panda and Snoop. I never take all three out together unless it's in the yard (live on acreage) but just take two on walks in the neighborhood. Susan, touched apon this as a tired dog is a good dog. However sounds as if you do take them out often. It sounds as if neither of your girls have had issues outside of the home and possibly have other things that have interested them and pre-occupying them so that they are not in each other's faces trying to get your attention. I also had another thought you may want to have Molly checked out medically as sometimes that "triggers" attacks from other dogs. Another really good trick a trainer suggested to me years ago was this: I stood (as if at attention) and held out my arms from my sides. Panda always went to the left , Blue to the right. Each had their own hand for patting and thus were't face to face trying to get my attention. Even if the dog was alone and came alone side to me for pats I wouldn't lift my arm until the dog went to "his hand" did I begin to pat his head. That way eventually when I sat down and each wanted my attention they were on opposite sides always and always facing the room and never each other. This was because both were so jealous of one another it avoided the rush to me for pats and I could pat both at the same time. This can only be done if they are calm and not excited as they would then touch one another in their excitement. If that happened or both tried to sit next to me on the couch I would simply get up and walk away. (now saying all of that...it's more complicated when you have 3 or more dogs ...and not enough hands...LOL!) However, you only have two and I'm not sure how Molly reacts to when you pat Patti or vice versa. When I enter the house I ignore all of them as they are too close to each other and vying for my attention so I walk past them all. Only after I have opened the doors to let them run around a bit do I even begin to pat one or the other. Sometimes without realizing we are doing it we greet one dog first and don't realize if the other dog observes this. Something to think about. Really, I'm so jealous of people that have multipets and their guys can eat bones or eat their food, play with toys, close to one another without issues!!! They are so lucky!! Nope, not in my household I have silly boys who won't eat and would walk away if Merlin chose to eat out of their bowls. To avoid confrontations and as each have varied needs - I have always fed my guys in different rooms. Which brings me back to another point. Not all households are alike. Some people will say that if you do that they are controlling you. Yes, perhaps if I only had those guys that would be true, but as I have an animal santuary and over 20 (different species) to feed in the morning and at dinner - everyone has their own place and can eat at their leisure without fear of being harrassed by another. I make sure that at least once daily all have one on one time with me so I can play with them or work on training. Safety is always the number one thing in my household. Again, however, my home is set up with numerous rooms and out door enclosures for numerous pets so what will work in one home may not work in another. The long time members here will know why I adored Gilligan as for the first time in years and years I had a wonderful boy who arrived with not a single issue and loved everyone and everyone loved him. Sigh - he was one in a million. I always say knowledge is power and the more you read and gain perspective on how dogs view things the more you are able to understand things from a dogs point of view. You learn to watch the body language and cues. As you've had both Molly and Patti for some time you know each of your girls individually and will probably know what would work for them. Trust your own instincts (I know I'm repeating myself) but while it would be nice to have a behavioralist visit it may not be possible..so read up on everything you can - both on this forum and on other dog info sites and trust yourself. Good luck! Marianne Just saw Richard post when I was typing this and I agree you need to establish your displeasure and dominance at the fighting. While I didn't do the alpha role after the Merlin-Snoop fight I removed Merlin into a quiet place and made him sit while I stood. |
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