Dealing with an Aggressive Rescue Dog
MM attacked my 8 year old female. He's been growling at her ever since he has come inside, when she's in the house. Tonight he attacked - and she did not back down. Then Kilo the male jumped in. My husband had to jump in and grab collars. This cannot happen. Advice??? I have NO CLUE why he would attack her. She is the most laid back, calm and loving dog in history, my husbands baby...also a rescue dog we have had since a pup. I am just sick over this... does it change anything? Maybe. I don't know. I am out of my mind now. |
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| Oh boy, I don't really have any solid words of advice here, but can imagine how upsetting this must be. Surely others will weigh in with useful advice. We used to have a female Chow mix who could be very aggressive with other dogs - always going right for the throat - and we just had to be super vigilant for any trouble brewing. We learned that when two dogs are mixing it up, it's best to not get into the middle of it. If you have to, grab one dog by the back feet and "wheelbarrow" them apart. |
| Maybe they need to meet and figure each other out in a neutral area, away from the house & yard. MM is new to the house and your girl may feel threatened by his presence. And MM is trying to figure out his place in the pack. I KNOW Jaci and Kristine can give more advice. |
| I wish I knew. if I knew why he is like this i would make moves to fix it. But it just seems to come from out of the blue. They were in the yard together today with him on his leash and it was "ok". Tonight in the kitchen, he just walks up and starts growling. The next thing we know is that fur starts flying. Then after hubby gets them seperated, I check on them, they are bleeding, and MM (not bleeding) has to go back to his room, where he promptly begins howling and tearing the rug again. This is more than I can deal with for sure. I can't leave him in a cage, I can't keep the other dogs locked up, we don't have a fenced "yard" per say, i can't live in the back of the house with him...and I don't see how i can shove this big dog in a crate if he is too scared to get in one. He's afraid of cars so i can't drive him anywhere, his back hip is messed up so he probably couldn't "jump" in or out of a car (yes, I could get a ramp if i could get him in a car...he cowers just walking by one). |
| I had an idea... Is there such a thing as "doggy day care", or something similar, that is a supervised environment with other people that know what they're doing (unlike myself!) that will give him experience being around other dogs in a controled situation?? Hubby says he can pick him up and just put him in the SUV... |
| Is he in pain because of his hip? Constant pain can do terrible things to anyone, dog or person. |
Mady wrote: Is he in pain because of his hip? Constant pain can do terrible things to anyone, dog or person. Well, he's on pain medication and it doesn't seem to stop him from playing with Kilo - and loving it or jumping all around when he sees me. So i don't think that's it... Kilo and MM seem to be friends (sort of - guarded friends at least. Even Kilo at times does not seem to trust him. It's off and on.) They can roll around and play...but as soon as my female walks in the room, you can just feel the tension in the room. She has been spayed for years and Kilo nuetered. |
sad_stray_finder wrote: I had an idea... Is there such a thing as "doggy day care", or something similar, that is a supervised environment with other people that know what they're doing (unlike myself!) that will give him experience being around other dogs in a controled situation?? Hubby says he can pick him up and just put him in the SUV... Before he's allowed in a doggy daycare, he'll have to have temperament testing for them to allow him. If he has signs of aggression he won't be allowed. He also won't be allowed if he's not physically healthy. That's not going to be the answer for him at this time. Maybe later. I defer to the experts on this - Jaci, Dawn, Kristine - and there are others too, but they're the authorities on how to manage these kinds of situations. If it's any consolation, I always felt like three weeks was the magic time frame for when "normal" happens and everybody settles in when there is a new addition to the family. The first three weeks were always hard, and then suddenly things fell into place. I am hoping that's how it's going to go for MM and your family too. |
| Dog fights in multi-dog households can be normal, to a certain degree. This is how dogs sort things out. MM may be trying to establish his role within the pack; he may be trying to establish dominancy. My two girls are siblings, and we've had a heck of a time with fighting. But we've managed the situation when it all seemed completely UNmanageable. I think it will be something you have to deal with after MM is back on the road to health. He will be feeling vulnerable and out of sorts right now, and that may be a stimulator on the fighting. For our girls, activity was a big part of it; tired dogs don't fight. Training can be a great way to mentally wear a dog out, especially when they can't be overly active, like MM right now. But, despite a mountain of training, in the end, we added doggie-Prozac to our regiment, and what an AMAZING difference it has made. I still do tons of training, and we still have some behavioral issues, but we've been fight free going on 6 months. I say start training MM. Train him in obedience commands: sit, stay, down, heal, recall-- that sort of thing. It helps to establish YOU as the head honcho in the house. That can help reduce any stress that is related to dominancy. Also, MM may be fighting the other dogs over his perceived ownership of you and your affection. For us, training the two girls in EVERYTHING EQUAL was a big deal. When one is rewarded, both are. When one gets time out, both do. If I brush one, I brush both. Walk one, I walk both, train one, train both... that sort of thing. You may need to work out some sort of a system like this, so that MM doesn't see himself as more deserving of your attention because he is dominating your life with his needs right now. I hope this helps! |
| Okay, first take a deep breath...... Sometimes people say...the other dog didn't do anything but that may not always be true. She may have been giving him disaproving dog looks or the "eye" and you may have not noticed she was doing it. MM may have finally challenged her and she wouldn't back down...so the battle was on. I did notice from one of your very first vids you posted (when MM was still long haired and shaggy) playing with Kilo that by her body language - she did not approve. It may have been her body language that caused me to think that. Years ago, I used to do Pet Talks for the Humane Education Society and would show vids and give talks on dog behavior to groups. One thing I mentioned is that dogs have rules...just like people do. In most cases (REMEMBER THESE RULES AREN'T SET IN STONE AND IT'S NOT ALWAYS 100 percent) but generally the case, is Males rarely attack a female as it's against their code of law. Dogs rarely attack puppies as that too goes against their code. Kinda like our code that prevents adults from hitting babies but like humans some dogs break this code. Adult dogs often discipline (many people don't realize the adult is simply correcting a pup but puppy is yipping more cause his/her feelings are hurt and uprights think pup is really hurt. There is a big difference between dominant dogs and aggressive dogs. Dominant dogs will try to put other dogs in their place but as soon as the other dogs give the "belly up" sign or lowers their tail to say okay you're the boss, then the dominant dog has established he/she is alpha. If there is a clear winner of a fight if it goes that far, then the next time the loser has to acknowledge the alpha status of the other and there is peace in a household. If not, then another challenge happens. An aggressive dog keeps continuing to fight even when the other dog has shown the belly up sign (this is like kicking a man when he's down) Okay so with that information lets go over the scenerio as to what happened to prevent it from happening again: I mentioned doorways are sometimes a trigger as if one dog is going through when another is coming from the opposite direction - they meet eye to eye...this in dog language is seen as a challenge. It's why it recommended that those that have dogs on leads to meet other dogs on walks also on leads...slowly give it slack so dogs can do their natural side to side meet and greet instead of eye to eye as that is a challenge. *****IT IS WHY CHILDREN SHOULD ALWAYS BE SUPERVISED WHEN MEETING NEW DOGS AS KIDS ARE NOTORIOUS FOR GETTING EYE LEVEL WITH A DOG AND USUALLY GRABBING BOTH SIDES OF THE DOGS HEAD TO GREET THEM" In kids language they are saying...oh I love you! You're so cute!....in dog language it means....I wanna fight you. Food especially for those who have had little of it and probably had to scrounge for whatever he could get in the woods may have been a trigger...sometimes a simple scrap is enough to cause one to "show lip" to another and a battle starts. Your old girl may have picked up signals from MM if he was perhaps in a protective mode while sleeping (he probably was always like this sleeping in the woods) and she was in a reactive mood as she was protecting you. Or it may be the female is really the alpha and alphas get the following: Usually (again not always 100% the rule) but generally Alphas get fed first Alphas go through doorways first Alphas are always the ones out the dog first Alphas get the best choice of sleeping spots Alphas get bones and may take the other bones away from siblings without so much a blink from them Some dogs interchange the alpha role as it also depends on their general disposition, it becomes more apparent with multi-dog homes if one is especially dominant. However, saying all of that...the HUMANS ARE THE ULTIMATE ALPHAS IN THE HOUSEHOLD and enforce the rules. Having all three dogs in the same room with the two humans may have been too close for comfort for all of them. Having MM sleeping in your room (the choice spot that is usually reserved for an alpha) may have caused jealousy in your older girl perhaps? It could be a simple thing that with all the commotions going on was not noticiable to you or Scott what was creating tension in the dogs. In one of my earlier post I mentioned my then old guy who was 15 and very submissive and never played....suddenly aligned himself and played with the alpha dog at his age when Panda arrived. He was jealous and didn't want to see his place in the heirachy diminishing any further with the newcomers arrival. That may also be the case with your older girl...she is jealous of MM or his new growing relationship with Kilo. 6 girls once mentioned not giving too much attention to the dogs when they are close together....to this day I never gush over my dogs when I enter the room as they all scramble for my attention...I push past them (as an alpha) and only when all have settled and aren't close together do I pet them. I also never give a lot of attention to one infront of the others...difficult at first but that's why I'm skinny as I took my dogs out one on one to give each attention depending on their need. Always watch the body language and you can tell if one is becoming anxious and it's a good time for distraction. You know this could be a one time thing or it may happen a few times until they sort it out. Some are sooooo lucky their dogs mesh with not a single problem. I'm so jealous of those people as all my boys have at one time or another had problems (except with Gilligan). I have a question too....who did Kilo side with when the fight happened? Good luck and next time grab a chair or something to block the dogs as you don't want yourself getting hurt. I also use break sticks ...I'll talk about those on another post sometime. I don't know for sure but I actually suspect that your female is the Alpha and not your GH boy. There could be 1000 reasons why it happened and it's all guesswork now on my part and some may not agree with me. However, that's what makes this forum good as many have different views on dog behavior and once you get to know MM more - you'll be able to read his body language better and avoid potential fights. |
| I hope I didn't overwhelm you with so much info and I added other stuff that may/may not be relevant in your situation but may help others understand dog behavior. I know I keep talking about experiences with my own dogs but that's the basis in which I've had a chance to gain experience and really become aware of body language and the hidden signs of dogs. All the dogs I've ever had (except Merlin who is a dominant alpha male) came from rough backgrounds. For years, I never draped my arm over Panda as in some dogs eyes that is viewed as a dominant gesture (kinda like some dogs hump or place their paws over another dogs backs). Be careful! Panda had abuse in his background and I learned to view his quivering lip as a signal it was time for me to back off and give him his space. Kinda hard to explain , as I mentioned you are the Alpha in the house but you also have to be on guard as you don't know MM's history and always side with caution. MM's hips causing him pain could be resulting of his being grumpy and giving signs that is being miscommunicated to the other dogs. Remember dogs have hearing 200% better than humans and they hear things we humans are not even aware of. He could have been grumbling softly in the other room and your female stood up to him, thinking she was guarding her "pack". She could have then stood in a challenging stance...ears pricked up, tail straight up....starring him down...all could be easily missed by humans. On the other hand his growling would have attracted your attention and then you would have noticed something is amiss. You then may think she wasn't doing anything but that may not necessarily be the case. Tails are the best indicators of what's up with dogs. (Unfortunately we OES people don't always have that indicator in our guys). Tails straight up...when dogs are facing each other....Dog 1 - I wanna be the boss...Dog 2 - also tail straight up...no I wanna be the boss. Neither is willing to back down if the tails remain in the up and rigid position. Watch out ! Distract before fight breaks out. or: If one lowers his tail when previously facing another dog with upright tail is acknowledging the other dog has higher status and will respect that and a fight is avoided. A tail slowly going down or tucked underneath the legs, ears flattened against the side of the head....scared/submissive dog...may also be fear biter if he hunkers down. These dogs are more likely to bite humans who then reach down to touch them...the growling dogs give humans warnings to back off. Wagging tails of course means ...okay I don't care about being boss...I just wanna play and be friends! let's play!! Lastly...sorry post is so long..... It also could be that Your girl views Kilo as her pup...not sure how old he was when he entered your household. She may be playing the role of over protective Momma to Kilo as her stance showed me she was uncomfortable with this strange dog playing with Kilo. I know it's frightening and horrible to see dogs fight....in most cases it does work out and they are just sorting out the heirachy and then make peace with their status in the household. Your girl reminds me so much of my Blue (the old dog I spoke of previously) in size and features that I recognized the stance in that vid and my gut told me she was really uncomfortable with MM. If possible, I know very very difficult with so many in the household but I would concentrate on that relationship with supervision of course. |
Wow Marianne, thanks for the BOOK  If you haven't written one, I would seriously consider it. You write extremely well - organized, easy to follow detail... Today, i am going to call the vet's office and see if they will prescribe something for this to help with the transition,. I need to talk to them about MM's eyes anyway. I came away from your replies with a ton of info, some seems like it may be relevant in our situation. There's SO MUCH going on now with all MM's problems, the other dogs personalities, our crazy work schedule, it's mayhem... Any thoughts on the best SA medication??? |
| Could MM be trying to mount your girl and she doesn't like that? When my sister comes home with her goldendoodle girl, Brick will try to hump her and she'll have none of that. She gets pretty nasty. |
| Some dogs don't like being in confined spaces with other dogs. What seems confined to them may not seem confined to you. Such as 3 dogs in a large kitchen may not seem like much to humans but it can be to dogs. As for doggy daycare....as mentioned before, it is basically for well socialized only dogs so they get to play with other dogs. Some people have multiple dogs & take them there too. It is NOT a training center. As a matter of fact, if your dog is aggressive, most well-run group obedience classes won't even take you as a student. You would need a private trainer to get him over that hump before he could attend group classes which is probably what he needs to learn how to behave around other dogs. He has been on his own for awhile & has had to protect himself & his food etc. Probably one of the reasons he is acting like he is around the other dogs. I don't mean to sound harsh about this but if you are going to have multiple dogs like this, you really need to have a fenced in area where they can run & play & exercise. I know you have mentioned that you don't have that at this point. Dogs can be let out in groups or individually, whatever works best for the pack. Dogs need more exercise than what can be provided with leash walking. Another thing to remember is that how the human thinks things should be isn't always what works for a dog pack. You need to be flexible & up to change for whatever is going to work best for the entire pack. |
| We tried to rescue a Oes that had been living in the woods for months...Suzi was 80 lbs and from day one attached herself to me. She was so loving however she would not let Rosie my 8 yr old Tibetan near me...she was VERY food aggressive. Poor Rosie only 25 lbs was so sad, hiding anywhere she could as Suzi would growl at her. I figured we could work it out. On the 10th day Suzi was in the kitchen near the dosed garbage can...Rosie walked in and Suzi started to attack with a vengeance...luckily I had a lead on her and grabbed it and put her outside...she growled at me and I was scared she was going to go after me...husband wasn't there. This happened out of the blue when I thought things were getting better. I also had a new granddaughter 2 mths old and became worried that she wouldn't be safe with Suzi. Suzi was an extremely loving dog..just didn't want anyone near me and any smell of food made her really aggressive. After 2 weeks I had to call rescue and find her another home which killed me because I had so bonded with her but Rosie deserved better and I wanted a dog that could be with grandchildren. She immediately found a great home where she was the only dog..it worked out great for all. I then got Maggie and life is good although I still separate dogs from children when food is involved or I can't be right there. Rosie has taught Maggie she is the alpha and Maggie has accepted it but food can cause a problem between them and I always feed them separate. Suzi was way to big for me to intervene and Rosie too small..I feared the worst and had to make the decision that was good for all...very hard and I so cried taking her to the foster rescue home. She did great with her 2 OES's and knew the alpha. I am sure I wasn't the best for her as her alpha and Rosie had done great with my former Oes but couldn't deal with Suzi. She stayed away from her and me and was so sad the two weeks we had her. You will have to work hard to make the three a happy pack as MM will probably always be food aggressive and need lots of attention. You said this happened in the kitchen..was there food smells or any around? Feel for you as you have your work cut out for you. Dogs may work it out but be aware someone can really get hurt, be careful and keep them separated. Make sure you give the other two some loving and be careful Ellen! |
ChSheepdogs wrote: I don't mean to sound harsh about this but if you are going to have multiple dogs like this, you really need to have a fenced in area where they can run & play & exercise. I know you have mentioned that you don't have that at this point. Dogs can be let out in groups or individually, whatever works best for the pack. Dogs need more exercise than what can be provided with leash walking. Another thing to remember is that how the human thinks things should be isn't always what works for a dog pack. You need to be flexible & up to change for whatever is going to work best for the entire pack. This is good advice, but frankly, there are limits as to what we can and cannot do in rescuing this stray dog. I wish we could quit work and stay home to deal with his SA, his bad hip, the Heartworm problems, afford to fence in our 1 acre lot with a dog that has problems with digging out in addition to all his upcoming medical bills, the aggression with dogs we already had, and on and on. I was just trying to save his life and give him a better life - and now we are facing mounds of debt on top of problem after problem. It's not like we went to the pet store to buy a dog irresponsibly. lhall15 wrote: We tried to rescue a Oes that had been living in the woods for months...Suzi was 80 lbs and from day one attached herself to me. She was so loving however she would not let Rosie my 8 yr old Tibetan near me...she was VERY food aggressive. Poor Rosie only 25 lbs was so sad, hiding anywhere she could as Suzi would growl at her. I figured we could work it out. On the 10th day Suzi was in the kitchen near the dosed garbage can...Rosie walked in and Suzi started to attack with a vengeance...luckily I had a lead on her and grabbed it and put her outside...she growled at me and I was scared she was going to go after me...husband wasn't there. This happened out of the blue when I thought things were getting better. I also had a new granddaughter 2 mths old and became worried that she wouldn't be safe with Suzi. Suzi was an extremely loving dog..just didn't want anyone near me and any smell of food made her really aggressive. After 2 weeks I had to call rescue and find her another home which killed me because I had so bonded with her but Rosie deserved better and I wanted a dog that could be with grandchildren. She immediately found a great home where she was the only dog..it worked out great for all. I then got Maggie and life is good although I still separate dogs from children when food is involved or I can't be right there. Rosie has taught Maggie she is the alpha and Maggie has accepted it but food can cause a problem between them and I always feed them separate. Suzi was way to big for me to intervene and Rosie too small..I feared the worst and had to make the decision that was good for all...very hard and I so cried taking her to the foster rescue home. She did great with her 2 OES's and knew the alpha. I am sure I wasn't the best for her as her alpha and Rosie had done great with my former Oes but couldn't deal with Suzi. She stayed away from her and me and was so sad the two weeks we had her. You will have to work hard to make the three a happy pack as MM will probably always be food aggressive and need lots of attention. You said this happened in the kitchen..was there food smells or any around? Feel for you as you have your work cut out for you. Dogs may work it out but be aware someone can really get hurt, be careful and keep them separated. Make sure you give the other two some loving and be careful Ellen! It may have come to this already for us because as I said above, we just cannot do all of what seems needs to be done apparently. And it's not that I am being inflexible, but it's hard to change everything we have been doing for 8 years over night, for us and our other dogs. The older dog is staying away from the house more and more... in fact I went outside before day break to just open my SUV doors so she could go in there to just have a place to get away. I already feed them in separate rooms, and I would like to spend a few minutes with my husband at night, but can't lock my dogs out of the house to do it, or stand the thought of keeping MM in a back room hearing him howl and bark, knowing he's tearing the room up because I am gone...I also can't put him in the outdoor "fenced" area to howl and bark because of the neighbors. I am exhausted, and running out of options, fast. |
| I hear you. If you are still willing to work with him, there are probably multiple layers of things going on here and it can sometimes be hard to sort it all out. Many rescue/shelter dogs end up with separation anxiety. Contrary to popular wisdom it doesn't always get much better, but it can become managable. I've had my rescue dog for three years now. She was surrendered to rescue when she was about 10 mos old, already with SA and many other personality problems - resource guarding among them - in evidence. She will shred things when left alone, and she once broke a window trying to get to me in the back yard. She is confined to a crate when I'm not home. She tries to destroy the crate too, but thankfully not with her teeth, I just end up with bent doors. She has almost given up harrassing the "weaker" members of the pack (my geriatrics) but only because I rode her butt on this one. MY dogs, MY rules. Anywway, a few things: 1) no feeling sorry for him. He was probably not abused. Neglected, undersocialized, not trained, and left in the backyard due to his poor manners more likely, where he got bored, escaped, and got himself hit by a car. Too, there's the basic genetically hardwired temperament. Some things just are like they are, like my rescue dog who was by all descriptions not normal for an OES from the day her owner brought her home (poor breeding). We'll never know for sure what his story is, but the bottom-line is ...no excuses. You know what proper dog behavior is, and he'd better shape up and learn to live up to that. He's lucky to be alive, he owes you his existence. Of course, dogs don't think like this, but it's OK if you do  2) the resource guarding is natural - he went from scrounging for himself to finding a fabulous source of food and comfort - but who knows how long that will last? Of course he's insecure. You played into both that and his separation anxiety with things like sleeping with him, which is not to say most of us wouldn't have done the same. I don't subscribe very closely to alpha theories within a pack since a pack is constantly changing, fluid, and, oh, yes, possession is 9/10ths of the law in dogdom, and you can observe varying degrees of "rank". Nonetheless, your bitch is most likely is the biggest "challenge" to his goals (keeping this wonderful provider of great things - that would be you - to himself) There will be squabbles until they work things out, it's pretty normal when you introduce an insecure dog into a household and normally, and especially if she could put him in his place, I would say let them work it out. Except there was bloodshed - not normal except maybe by accident in basic dog posturing, providing all participants have good bite inhibition. If they don't, you have to intervene. And if humans have to get in there to make them stop, they (you or your husband) risk getting bitten. Not good. A number of people have already touched on the key elements but here are a few of the things I'd move on first: 1) get him a big crate, maybe make it cozy, feed him in there, toss good treats in there to lure him in since you don't want to put yourself in a position of manhandling him and risking getting bit, but above all make sure he will go in there. To this day I toss a small cookie into the crate when I crate any dog and all of my dogs will run into the closest crate the minute they realize what's going on. Even my rescue dog, who, though she doesn't like STAYING there because then she can't be on top of me at all times, can't resist a cookie. I used to put blankets over my rescue dog's crate, but she'd just drag them into the crate and shred them, likewise bedding, oh well. You need to leave the house now and again and you need to know that your house, your other dogs and Muffin (is that still his name?) will be safe. Some dogs will get so frantic they try to use their teeth to get out, breaking their teeth in the process. Let's hope he's not one of those and barking and carrying on is the worst he will do. Do not feel sorry for him. He would be living in the woods, parasite ridden, subsisting on lizards and snails or whatever if not for you. Your house, your rules. 2) training - was that your suggestion, Mark? Huge. Not only is this time with you, oh mighty resource provider, it exercises his brain and most of all imprints on him that it pays to do what you tell him to do. Find some tiny "cookies" he likes (mine turn themselves inside out for little bits of hot dogs, or pretty much anything else, he sounds like he may be a bit pickier, but hopefully he is still food motivated enough to make this a viable training option because it's very powerful - his chance to earn cookies and approval. It teaches him that there are positive ways to earn the resources he covets and it teaches him he has to listen to you (and your husband, best if you both work with him) So that if he does nonethelss get into it with your girl, one bellow from one of you should make them BOTH stop. (Will she listen to both of you? If not, I'd put her on a training refresher course) And when i say training the basics are fine. Sit, down, stay, come, eventually maybe even some fun tricks; if you get into it you can get inventive and really make it a fun time for both of you 3) leave a collar on him and a short leash dragging so you always have a handle you can grab. Try grabbing his collar and you can risk getting yourself bitten in certain situations. Has happened to me twice with foster dogs and I should know better.  He sounds like he's pretty used to getting his way, any way he has to. That would annoy me. Enough so that I'd make it a priority for him to understand that it's my way - period. He's pushy. He'll play you for everything he's worth. He may think his very existence depends on it, and in some ways, he's right. There are no quick fixes, but first order of business is to regain control of your house and your life with your other dogs. I don't go out of my way to play equals - if I want to snuggle with one of my other girls right now, live with it. I'm not a democracy - I pay the bills, dog behaves in a manner I can tolerate. He has to learn that he plays by your rules or not at all. You don't have to resort to harsh measures to get this across, but you do have to be firm and consistent. Dogs love consistenty. Consistent makes them feel secure and for an insecure dog, especially, it can make all the difference in the world. Consider what you can and cannot live with, and now to manage things (like the use of a crate), especially in the beginning, so you don't have to get into a battle of wills with him to make it happen, but rather he has no choice but to "comply". Rights are EARNED. Beating up on other canine household members, completely unacceptable. You've done more for this dog than anyone I can think of. It's time for him to give a little back. Don't expect gratitude  , dogs are basically hairy opportunists on four legs, their survival depends on it, and they're hardwired to know that. But letting him work for it is perfectly acceptable Just my 2 cents whatever inflation dictates these days. And if you don't think you can make it work, contact an allbreed rescue and see if they can help you. Maybe you can make it work, maybe he needs to be in another home. Already you've done more for this dog than most. You do have to think about your other dogs as well. Kristine |
| Thanks Kristine. I needed all of that amazingly long and helpful reply. I have been feeling like a total failure in keeping "everybody" happy and trying to keep some semblance of normalcy in the house...between dogs and people. I admit that when I look at Mr. Muffin, my heart just melts. is it out of pity and worry for him? Maybe, probably. The very last thing I would ever want to do is give up on him. Not too many people would want this dog or could handle all of his problems unless they are specifically experienced enough, and have the ability and time, to handle him and give him what he needs. The last thing I would ever want for him is to see him languishing in a pen or kennel somewhere. That WILL NOT happen. Yes, I drug him out of the woods to give him a better life...but the life he was living before my intervention was at least HIS life...now that I have intervened, I feel a responsibility to carry through the best I can unless I can find him something better. Today, I am going to buy him the very biggest, sturdiest crate I can find. He has gotten very attached, and possessive, of his dog bed(s), so I am hopeful that I can put a small bed in it with his favorite treat and he will get in. Being that he has always been afraid of enclosures, it may take some doing and trickery to make him want to use it. The last thing I want - or need - is to have to force a dog in a crate. If I could only get one good nights sleep, I know i would feel better about all of this. It's so hard to think when you're tired. Thanks again everybody for putting up with ME. |
| Oh and for training...yes, i so agree. I am glad he is finally off the harness (which he HATED) and into a neck collar which he tolerates now and is actually pretty submissive on it with me now. He is still on pain medication, today was his last dose good for 24 hours. So tomorrow, with hubby hopefully around a little, I was thinking that maybe I can start working with him. I do know how to use a clicker and he wants to please me, so I have my fingers crossed. It worked wonders for my shepherd... MM should be no different. |
| Wow lots of wonderful information! Good luck! I know your are tired. You are an amazing person to help this poor guy! |
| Get a positive reinforcement trainer asap... best advice you can get when dealing with an aggressive dog.. trust me! |
HeatherRWM wrote: Get a positive reinforcement trainer asap... best advice you can get when dealing with an aggressive dog.. trust me! That's what I was thinking. You'll probably need a trainer to come in. |
| What about the Thundershirt I was reading that thread. Especially since he is naked right now too. I agree it is time to start doing basic training. Get a trainer in as well. Try and avoid rooms that they would have issues with, like the kitchen where there is food. That is where the fight started? What helps me when things get a little crazy with play which can turn it to a fight. Telling them: go to your blanket. That helps with getting them out of a room. Getting them to stop doing what the are doing, distracting them. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=36415 Oh and the car problem no doubt because he was probably hit by one he doesn't want to go near one. I would start just getting him to get close and treat and build up to in the car, then out. Then close the door, then out. Always crazy praise. Then the first time in the car take his somewhere really fun or for a treat. Not the vet. I did this process with Laika when she wouldn't get up on the grooming table thanks to the help here and now she jumps up right away.  |
| You're doing the best you can and you stepped up when others failed this dog. The bottom line is you helped MM and don't be too hard on yourself...it's easy to feel quilty, overwhelmed, exhausted, ect.. Thank you for the nice compliment. Just yesterday I had to take my re-certification on Non Violent Crisis Intervension class as I work with high risk youth and tons of info was swimming in my head. I often think my work with high risk youth and working with troubled rescue dogs is interchangeable at times. The theory is you are always on guard, appear non threatening, watch for visable cues of possible escalation of anxiety and try to de-esculate the potential for lashing out or violence. In a nutshell. What works for one may not work for another. When one needs toughness and a firm hand, another may lash out as a result, but does wonderful with softness first .. then the discipline. I also use to work with non verbal special needs kids and reading body language became second nature to me. I never let my guard down with them either and constantly watched for cues as to things that may be causing anxiety. On Fridays I go on spareboard and am always working with different kids so have to be able to read body language and non verbal cues. ..I always rely on my gut. I also know from working with youths and dogs that not a single one is going to want to listen to me or view me as someone safe - unless I develop a relationship and trust with them first. Then they go backwards to please me. Yup! Same thing with kids and dogs. While it is important to establish dominance over the pack, they need to feel safe and secure first. MM will also view you as the natural leader and will come when he is called so that fear of him escaping will subside and give you one less thing to worry about. Trust your instincts and while you are getting some great advice - you will know first hand what "feels" right. I know I keep saying this so much that I sound like a broken record but NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN - ALWAYS WATCH WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE ROOM, EVENTUALLY SO IT BECOMES SECOND NATURE. You may get injured if your face is too close to MM's if he suddenly lashes out and you may think of getting baby gates (check Craigs List or second hand shops and have them close by to be able to grab quickly if you need a barrier to separate two combative dogs. If you get the chance...I know easy for me to say in your already overwhelming life....but take some time out with your girl for a walk so she gets a chance to get attention from you - away from the others. The boys then can perhaps get a chance to play and wear themselves out. The rule about a tired dog is a good dog is true. Your girl will also be tired from her walk. Anyhow you're doing fine, it's not easy and you are wonderful. |
Everyone's covered most everything.  Just more fill-in info...Training: Only train as long as you have his attention, then stop. Get him so he's eager to "play-learn". You might only feed him 1/2 or 1/3 the meal that morning... wait maybe 4-5 hours, then using the remainder of the meal or something better as an incentive, begin training. He'll be more apt to listen. Personally, I'd train him where you're other dogs cannot see. And each gets a turn at training... even just a couple of minutes. Crates: I would never force him into a crate... especially if he's growled at you once already. In order for a crate to have a chance at working long term, it has to be voluntary compliance. Feeding a dog inside a crate can make it a good thing along with covering it 2/3s or 3/4 with a blanket (as long as he doesn't drag it in to eat it). Don't "trap" him in there... just work toward getting him to walk in and walk out. Then on to shutting the door for a few seconds, then quickly opening it back up. And then on to longer durations. It will make life so much easier if you can crate him. And I cannot stress this enough... if the dogs are unsupervised, the crate needs to be behind a closed door... at first anyway. There can be cage aggression from both the dog in the crate and dogs outside the crate. Marking A Desired Behavior: Rather than a clicker, I mark a behavior I'm asking for with just one word... I use "Yes!". When training, it's "Yes!" and a quick tiny treat. If you fill them up with treats throughout the day, they become complacent. I'm perfectly happy to bribe a dog to do what needs to be done. I'm happy, the dog's happy, the necessary task is done. Later on, the number of treats used gets smaller and finally given at the end of say a nail trim, ear cleaning, bath, etc. Mine know a treat is coming. Bringing In The Right Dog: There is definitely a learning curve when it comes to dogs. And not every dog can be easily integrated into a pack and still leave you with peace in your home. It can take months for a new dog to settle in. For most people, it needs to be the right dog in the right home... and this means the new dog needs to be right for every member of the home including all other dogs/pets. Certain things are sometimes required in order to make it work... crates, doors/gates, different rooms. It's all up to the owner on how far they can go in an attempt to make it work. We too have limits and there are no failures here if you find he isn't a match for you and you need to seek help from a rescue. Secure Off-Leash Play Area: ChSheepdogs wrote: I don't mean to sound harsh about this but if you are going to have multiple dogs like this, you really need to have a fenced in area where they can run & play & exercise. I know you have mentioned that you don't have that at this point. Dogs can be let out in groups or individually, whatever works best for the pack. Dogs need more exercise than what can be provided with leash walking. I strongly agree with Marilyn... dogs need a fenced area to play in. Also about play groups. Mine only on occasion go out all together... the one held back is vision challenged... smaller play groups are usually best because some have physical limits and just the way some some of my dogs play. There's always something interesting out there to investigate when you're a dog... and they tend to get tunnel vision when focused on something. You also mentioned the neighbor's bitch in season was wandering loose.  Are neutered dogs still apt for seek her out? Mr. M shouldn't be allowed to wander ever again. He was fortunate to have survived being hit by a car once... but because of it, he's faced pain and future pain to correct these injuries... not to mention the financial burden this injury is going cause you. Proof that he will always need to be kept on a leash or contained in a secured area. The settling in period is often stressful. Hoping things will soon start to settle down.  |
| Off the pain meds and out of the honeymoon period, I would expect the behavior to get worse. I would be quite concerned about bites at this point. |
spacegirl21 wrote: What about the Thundershirt I was reading that thread. Especially since he is naked right now too. I am definitely not the one to offer advice so I won't However, I do have an extra Thundershirt if you'd like to give it a shot. It doesn't train but it can help calm! I can mail it to you. PM me if you're interested! |
| I think it's great you want to make it work...I so wanted to keep Suzi but Rosie, husband and two month old grand baby had to come first..we also had over one acre yard in the mountains...rocky ground and costs made a normal fence impossible and Suzi was very tall and it would have to be 6 ft plus...we had a electronic fence and it has always worked however it keeps nothing out...we had a bobcat for three summers and a big black bear the last two years playing in the meadow...I had to always go out first and checkout yard before letting dogs out. I had to finally make the decision Suzi needed a one dog home and I know she is super happy now. Please be very careful right now...I have known dog fights that ended with one dying and owner in hospital from attack. We often think of our pets as people and forget they are animals. Another baby is in hospital in Henderson NC because Grandma's dog, a pit bull attacked baby because he was crying...nobody saw it coming. Dog was put down and everyone is praying for baby. I can't emphasize that you need to be very careful until you really know MM and he settles in with lots of training. Food will probably always be a trigger. Make sure your home is the right place for MM to transition from being free to living in a home...make sure this is good for hubby and other dogs. Not having a fence, not being crate trained and car phobia is going to make it tough going. Baby gates are great but he may jump over or chew them. You are so sweet to help MM but please be careful. |
| There is no way I can keep him fenced... Our lot is so very sandy, we could not even get a vegetable garden to grow. I went to the store today to buy an airline crate like Ron suggested, a new dog pillow for the bottom, more pads, etc. This time I put him outside in the "fenced" area... gone maybe one hour and when I got back, he had almost dug free. We already have 2 & 4' long rebar in the ground all over. It's easy to dig past it. My dogs have never been contained...and i am not going to start now. They love to run free in our little neighborhood, as does the female belonging to the neighbor. If MM cannot run free around the house also, then a rescue will have to be the solution. besides, as I said, he cannot be contained even if we had the thousand++$ to put into a fence. I already bought 2 baby gates. He barked and howled and tried to climb over. Kilo tried to jump over. I also bought a camping cot today so I can sleep in the room with him up off the floor. I called a dog trainer today that I have used for Kilo in the past but I have my doubts if this is going to be the solution. I tried to work with him today on 'sit" and he is too busy trying to "own" me, and even the gentlest pressure on his rear while using the collar in front I could tell made him suspiciously nervous. And holding it up in front of his nose did absolutely nothing because he can't see well I suppose. As for car rides... as I said before, he would have to be physically picked up and put and removed in and out of the car because of his hip as well as his fears, even IF he agreed to go peacefully. Then what do i do with my other two?? My husband told me that if he keeps growling at "his" 8 year old dog that we both adore so much, he will personally take the dog to a shelter. So based all all this, where do i find a 'rescue" willing to take a dog with all of these problems?? Would anybody really be able to take him on? MM is so sweet to people. This really is breaking my heart. I imagine it will need to be a person with no other animals, or set up to handle it which we are not apparently. |
| As for the Rescue, you should contact an "all-breed"rescue group. They deal with mixed breeds & different breeds of dogs. They have experience & knowlege about things like this & will know what is best for him. And in the end, that is really what you want...what is best for the dog. I would be leery of letting him run free in your neighborhood. You could be responsible if he bites someone else. |
| I hope you can find a doodle rescue; in the past I don't think that has been as easy as finding an OES rescue, but things might have changed. |
| I understand your desire to have him placed in a rescue. You have done so much for him. What an amazing woman! All dogs don't fit all people and homes. You saved him and now rescue can find a home for him that suits him. |
| Try calling these people. They may help or lead to someone who can http://www.grrmf.org/ |
| Here is another http://www.coastalgrr.org/site/ |
| just throwing this out the only times my dogs got into fights were during a full moon witch is now!! |
Quote: I tried to work with him today on 'sit" and he is too busy trying to "own" me, and even the gentlest pressure on his rear while using the collar in front I could tell made him suspiciously nervous. And holding it up in front of his nose did absolutely nothing because he can't see well I suppose. He's not your average dog. Others can advise but I can see holding his collar and pressing gently on his hips may cause a negative reaction due to the severity of his injury. Blind dogs learn to sit pretty easily from past experience so I don't think it's that he can't see. The act of sitting may be painful or he's just not yet understanding (or being a butthead and not complying. ).Quote: My husband told me that if he keeps growling at "his" 8 year old dog that we both adore so much, he will personally take the dog to a shelter. I would start contacting rescues tonight... even if you aren't sure yet you'll need help. Contact several rescues all at once. Rescues are known to travel to pick up dogs so don't limit his options to just Middleburg. Sharing that funds are available for his heartworm treatment may help him get in. You'll find several pages of rescues in Florida here- http://www.petfinder.com/awo/search?key ... &limit=100 |
| Not sure if this is the right solution but it worked for me with 2 of my fosters that I had last summer. Both of which were very attached to me and my 2 OES were scared to death of both of them. I too was at the point that something had to change as my dogs didn't deserve to be attacked especially by a visitor. I went to PetsMart and bought a muzzle - the fabric one that goes round their nose and hooks behind their ears. I put it on Annie while I was alone with her in the garage and yes I was a little scared that she might bite me but spoke very nicely and gave her treats while putting it on her. Then I let them all out in my backyard together. Annie managed to get the muzzle off of her nose in about 3 minutes but it still hung around her neck like a lose collar until I took it off of her later. After about 10 minutes of them all together in the back yard with me standing off to the side watching for her to realize that no one was going to hurt her. We still had the occassional growl but no more fights and no more bloodshed. Annie was later adopted my a great family in the NE and lives with 4 other dogs and they all get along great. Michelle |
| Ellen.... Again I say "Thank You" for helping MM It is very frustrating, I know...rescue dogs are not cake walks and it is so hard I, with you and many other rescue people have screamed, cried and thought why????? You have done so much for the big guy and he just wants your love at this point, yes, he is getting jealous of the others because, he may have never had the love you are giving him and he wants to secure it  Just a couple quick thoughts... I would not do heartworm treatment on him, only start him on prevention, the pain from the injections will make the situation worse. With his bad hip I don't think he can handle it I would like to offer for our ortho vet look at his xrays to see what he thinks the options are. I know they look bad but, to have a specialist look would give some more insight. If you can not keep MM I would be willing to take him into rescue... After all you and our family has been through I would hate for him to end up at a shelter You can get all my contact info below Even if you just want to talk about him you are more than welcome to contact me Thank you for all you are doing for this baby  |
| Maybe poor MM is still in pain. Even though he was on pain killers it might not have been enough, dogs tend not to show us when they are sick or hurting (it would make them a target in the wild). The x-rays looked so pitiful. The vet only prescribed pain medication for the surgery? Was he/she conserned with the pain stemming from the hip? |
| Hello all, My modem was down since last night...just got back online. I hope to talk to Kathy this afternoon about Mr. Muffin, to see what can be done for him. He is definitely possessive about me now...my husband tried to give me a hug last night and MM pointedly objected. Same thing this morning when he just walked into the room with us. So now he is afraid to be around him, or have the other two dogs around him. He doesn't spend much time around him at all because he works so much; it is usually MM and I. And like was pointed out, if he has never known love before, to be getting it now, he is probably afraid of losing it. Our house is now cordoned off: Mr. Muffin and I in one half, my husband and other two dogs in the other half. Not a very cordial situation to say the least. I am not personally afraid of him. I know he is a good dog that wants and needs love so desperately. It breaks my heart to think he would be starting over with another family, but I am so out of my element apparently here. Jaci, of COURSE the chipin moneyfor his heartworm treatment is available to anyone who would rescue Mr. Muffin. In fact, it is still sitting in Paypal, I haven't touched it. There is an individual check that was mailed to me as well. And i would want to send him with his dog bed that he loves so much. He knows it is his and you can tell he covets it. I hope I haven't made any enemies here. And I hope you can all believe me when i say that the thought of giving him up makes me so sad. I wish i were smarter in all of this like you guys. I will keep you posted. |
| I dont think you need to worry about making enemies. You have done much more than most people would. How many saw him before in the woods and just turned their backs on him? You need to do what is best for you and your family. People in rescue have much more experience in handling these types of situations. Please dont feel like you failed. You gave him the chance no one else had and now you are making sure he gets the best help he can. |
| I hate to be a downer, but this dog has A LOT stacked against him that may make it extremely difficult to find a rescue. The fact that he has shown undesirable behaviors to both humans and animals will severely limit the type of foster home he can go to. That, plus the fact that he has heartworm (there is a shortage of heartworm medication) and a hip injury means he is going to be costly and also limited in fosters. I wish you the best of luck in finding a rescue, but I do fear that it will be a very difficult task. |
| Please see my post above. I said, "Sharing that funds are available for his heartworm treatment may help him get in." I assist rescues... sharing the fact that funds are available can make a difference. I wasn't questioning it. Sigh... Talk with Kathy... we talked last night. |
sad_stray_finder wrote: I wish i were smarter in all of this like you guys. I will keep you posted. Hm...what makes you think any of us is smarter?  It's easy to dole out advice, harder to live it. A friend was always quick to tell me how to deal with my rescue dog's behavior so I figured she'd be the one to leave her with when I had a family emergency out of state. She couldn't WAIT to give her back to me, detailing every aggravating thing she did, oddly enough not miraculously fixed upon my return Always remember none of us have walked in your shoes. Everyone cares and wants to be helpful, but smarter....nope. You do the best you can, that's all anyone can do. Kristine |
| ^^ Exactly. |
| I think what you have done is wonderful. Most people would call Animal Control. I doubt I would have done what you have I think you are truely wonderful person. You realize it is too much and it too much. Sounds like Mr. Muffin needs some one on one time with a rescue person "like" Jaci who knows so much. I had a rescue and I know it is alot of work. She didn't have health problems on top of everything. You have a sick puppy emotionally and physically. No worries you did awesome! |
| Here's a picture I took today: http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii5 ... Muffin.jpg The picture is small because I took it from my phone, but you can tell he's smiling and his little fuzz is coming back Thank you everybody for friending 'both" of us. |
| We still love you Ellen! Don't be so hard on yourself as without you to help and advocate for Mr. Muffin - he would have had a sad and lonely existance living a shortened life in the woods. |
| We still love you Ellen! Don't be so hard on yourself as without you to help and advocate for Mr. Muffin - he would have had a sad and lonely existance living a shortened life in the woods. You're a wonderful kind soul and I'm sure you're out of pocket a lot of money to help a dog that wasn't even yours. Nope, you're a hero. I hope your spirits are lifted knowing that many admire you and not one single one of us fault you. Hugs Marianne Blah now I'm having computer problems and thought the first post didn't come through so wrote a second one..and can't cancel the first....double blah. >>>see not smart  |
| Ellen, What Kristine said is right on the money. None of us are very smart , we just kind of muddle through. I give kudos to you for taking in this dog in the first place. Not very many people would have done that. He has developed unforeseen problems and now this needs to be addressed. So you find someone who has the knowledge to deal with this. Again, not many people would have done this, would have just taken him to the pound. I am so disappointed that this didn't work out for you, as I'm sure you are. Enjoy your remaining days with him and know he will find a place that will help him. |
| Following your rescue saga. You have done so much for MM. Here is a resource that I have used. Katie is on the radio every Sunday from 4:00 to 6:00 PM. You can listen to her live online, listen to her podcasts or email her. She may have some idea's. Of course talking to rescues about how they have handled this type of situation is a good idea. You have gotten some great advice already. I know one thing Katie will probably recommend is that your husband always feed the dog. http://ktk9.com/radio.php Good luck to you. Keep posting I'm following your story. Patricia |
| Thank you everyone for your kind words... again! Guest wrote: I know one thing Katie will probably recommend is that your husband always feed the dog. Yes. This has been what my thoughts have centered on the last couple of VERY emotional days for me, when contemplating sending Mr. Muffin to another home or rescue... "Have I really given it my best?" And because nobody else has tried to really socialize with the dog but me, the answer is therefore "No". So call me nuts (and i swear i am not bipolar or on medicine myself, although I probably should be), I am taking a deep breath here and trying again. I spoke with Kathy, who is just THE most wonderful lady (using 'calming techniques' on me I think - thank you Kathy!! ) and I spoke with Dr. Price (who also owns 9 rescue dogs himself at his house) and I spoke with the trainer who has helped me in the past with Kilo...and last but not least, hubby and I talked about it...and what I came away with in my own mind is that before I throw in the towel on MM, I want to TRY to involve other people in his day to day needs as much as I can, hoping that will help socialize him and make him see he doesn't need to be so possessive of me - that his existence does not depend on me.So i am marking today as Day "1" and will take this day-by-day. (Hour-by-hour even?) Now I am not saying I won't be back on here wailing and complaining and worrying...my ups and downs have been huge these past few weeks over this guy...but for now here I am again. I think the advice i was given to contact rescue groups NOW is sterling. And I am going to do that, so that if I find my back against the wall for good, he will have options immediately... In my heart I believe Mr. Muffin to be worth this. I have fallen for a big baby in diapers with big brown eyes... I will keep you all updated, of course!! Wish us luck on "Day 1" ps... I just had a thought... What do you guys think about me possibly hiring a "Pet sitter" to come to the house maybe 1x per day to just take Mr. Muffin for a walk, give him a few treats, spend a little time with him? This would be in addition to the trainer (who will only come maybe 1x per week, not alot but at $130 per 2 hour visit, I can't have her csmp on our doorstep This is just a thought I had (and of course assuming there is no aggression and there is complete communication between the sitter and I as well as the introductory period, etc., etc.)... I am just trying to figure out how to get him more socialized - Any thoughts or ideas?? pps - Also going to get Rescue Remedy For Pets you guys have spoken of. I should have done this already but frankly forgot to do it. Actually think all 3 dogs could use this right now - |
| Ellen, thank you so much for all you've done for Mr Muffin. I think it is a good idea for your husband to start feeding Muffin as you've been advised, hand feed. Also, have Muffin and you female dog go for walks on leads together. They don't have to walk far, but have them do it often. After a bit include your Kilo also. This s advise I had read on this site a long time ago and it really works. I would probably have Scott walking them, so that Muffin starts seperating from you a bit. When I brought Asia into our home, she was pretty neglected. She was left out in the backyard while the other dogs where allowed in the house. She didn't get milk bones like the other dogs, she only got the crumbs that fell on the floor. When she was brought in at night, she was put in a cage while all the other dogs, including her litter mate, were allowed to bond and run with the family. I babysat every once in a while there, and Chuck did some homeimprovement work there as well. It broke our hearts to see how neglected Asia was. Chuck/I talked and I called my friend and suggested that we take her and she was fine with that. She had her hands full with sick husband. Violet was 5 and China was 4 at the time and Asia was 9mts. So once we had her home, we had planned on training her and getting her ready to adopt out, but we failed and fell in love and kept her. I do understand the possessiveness Muffin feels..but he can be broken of that by involving others in his care, first step Scott. Good luck and I'll be looking for updates. |
| Ellen you are amazing! I admire you! The photo of MM was so nice to see. |
| If I didn't have a 2 Month old granddaughter I would have tried harder and longer as my previous two OES's were the loves of my life and my family...just couldn't risk the food aggression around little people. You are so sweet to help MM...wishing you the best. Notice time of your last post..you need to get some sleep! MM is one lucky dog! |
| How does MM interact with the other dogs OUTSIDE of the kitchen or AWAY from the kitchen? If you and your husband were watching TV in the living room and had all 3 dogs with you, how would the 3 get along? Do you have any adult friends or relatives nearby that would be willing to stop by (even when you & Scott are home) in order to expose MM to more humans? Has Scott ever thought about staying in the back room for awhile with MM, like you have been doing? In other words, you and he switching roles in MM's care? |
violet wrote: I think it is a good idea for your husband to start feeding Muffin as you've been advised, hand feed. Also, have Muffin and you female dog go for walks on leads together. They don't have to walk far, but have them do it often. After a bit include your Kilo also. This s advise I had read on this site a long time ago and it really works. I would probably have Scott walking them, so that Muffin starts seperating from you a bit. Good advice. I think you are right and we will try this!! violet wrote: When I brought Asia into our home, she was pretty neglected. She was left out in the backyard while the other dogs where allowed in the house. She didn't get milk bones like the other dogs, she only got the crumbs that fell on the floor. When she was brought in at night, she was put in a cage while all the other dogs, including her litter mate, were allowed to bond and run with the family. I babysat every once in a while there, and Chuck did some homeimprovement work there as well. It broke our hearts to see how neglected Asia was. Chuck/I talked and I called my friend and suggested that we take her and she was fine with that. She had her hands full with sick husband. That is so sad, but what a happy ending! It never ceases to amaze me how resilient and so smart dogs are. In ways, they are much better than people... lhall15 wrote: If I didn't have a 2 Month old granddaughter I would have tried harder and longer as my previous two OES's were the loves of my life and my family...just couldn't risk the food aggression around little people. Wow, of course not. I was nervous with MM around my husband and he's well over 6'. Not a baby Just a couple of days ago, there was Rottweiler who mauled a 17 month old baby to death here in Jacksonville. It can happen, and it DOES happen. No way would I have chanced it either. No way.CamVal1 wrote: How does MM interact with the other dogs OUTSIDE of the kitchen or AWAY from the kitchen? [/quote].If you and your husband were watching TV in the living room and had all 3 dogs with you, how would the 3 get along? Do you have any adult friends or relatives nearby that would be willing to stop by (even when you & Scott are home) in order to expose MM to more humans? Has Scott ever thought about staying in the back room for awhile with MM, like you have been doing? In other words, you and he switching roles in MM's care? Well actually, that is what has given me a little renewed hope, because after that one night, when we cordoned off the house, I have been diligent in trying to keep them separated anywhere inside the house pretty much, but together in proximity outside while I have MM on a leash. I watched a video about body signals yesterday and had to laugh because Mr. Muffin displays ALL if the calming signals when he's outside... yawning, stretching, sniffing, turning his head sideways, approaching sideways, eyes averted, sitting when things get tense. Inside, when he was around the other dogs, he's very intent to keep me separated from them... so is he trying to protect me or is it jealousy...who knows. So for now, they are just simply separated 95% of the time inside while we work on socialization outside. So far so good. Last night he was actually even quiet for maybe 15 - 20 minutes at a time when separated from me... I consider that tremendous progress if it keeps up. We don't know anybody who could get involved with MM unfortunately. All of our friends have crazy schedules like we do, or a gazillion demands (like we do). This is why I thought maybe a professional sitter. For $8 - $10 per hour, if they are good with dogs (references!!) I thought that might be a solution. My shepherd has always been hyper...very much the "I have to be in control" dog. (Common with shepherds. but he can be really obnoxious to other dogs. And while he and MM get along, he can be a real brute. So I plan to give all three dogs the Bachs rescue remedy. It may calm Kilo down too... Do you guys know of anything homeopathic (not prescription) that is better for calming down hyper dogs that always have to be 'the leader", playing non-stop??? As for Scott sleeping on the cot...  Ain't gonna happen ... |
| I'm so glad you've decided to give Mr. Muffin another chance. It sounds like you're on the right track with socialization. Again you are going above and beyond. You're not throwing in the towel yet and that makes me happy and proud to be your "friend". As for the hyper dog, I wish I had some helpful words. My rescue dog was and is hyper at almost 7yrs old...although he's not jumping six feet straight up anymore |
| Hi Ellen, I have just been catching up on the posts. I'm sorry you've had so many ups and downs with Mr. Muffin. I think you've done amazing work with him, and have had many successes. I know firsthand how emotional a rollercoaster it can be with a rescue. Our rescue (from Florida too) still has a lot of issues, but they have definitely gotten a thousand times better over time. The learning curve for these dogs is all over the place. You feel like you've made great progress and then suddenly something will happen and you question everything you've done. I've been there. The thing to remember is that one issue/moment/slip/whatever doesn't erase all that came before. It just means more practice is needed. It took a full year to get our Rudy to stop peeing in the house (poop only took six months to control). He still doesn't make a request to go out, but he has a pretty routine schedule now, and a very subtle tell IF I'm watching. We've done well. He is fearful and submissive in some situations (very much so) but insanely dog aggressive while on leash (we don't know about off leash as we've never wanted to risk it...nor will we). The other day we had washed his dog bed cover (his brother threw up on it), and called him over the check it out once it was all put back together. He came happily, laid down on it and wagged his tail. We cooed at him, standing over him, and that triggered a submission incident. He stood up and peed, for what felt like ten minutes, all over the just washed dog bed. Totally triggered by OUR behaviour. We knew better. Part of me felt like a total failure, but I reminded myself that for the last 364/365 days he did NOT have a peeing incident. That's a pretty good percentage. I know you are dealing with much more significant issues at this point, but you are making great progress. Try to remind yourself of that. And if Mr. Muffin has a bad day, or you're feeling down, that's okay too. You've already worked several miracles. As always, virtual hugs to you and to Mr. Muffin, and to the rest of your family. |
| So much excellent advice and support from everyone - WOW! Reading these post makes me realize why it's an awesome place to "hang out" Okay I'll stop hijacking the post now... |
sad_stray_finder wrote: We don't know anybody who could get involved with MM unfortunately. All of our friends have crazy schedules like we do, or a gazillion demands (like we do). This is why I thought maybe a professional sitter. For $8 - $10 per hour, if they are good with dogs (references!!) I thought that might be a solution. I wasn't thinking of friends or relatives coming over to watch or babysit MM. I was thinking more along the lines of you guys having a barbeque with friends & relatives (no kids). This would expose MM to more humans. When they treat him well (and even throw him an occassional hot dog bit), he will learn to trust humans again. |
| I have been following your rescue of MM, I haven't posted before because I really don't have anything constructive to add. I think you are doing a wonderful thing and I hope it all works out for the best for you, your husband and your other dogs. You seem to have covered your bases of finding him another home if necessary but I really hope you can overcome all the problems and keep him in his new home. He seems to really love you and it doesn't sound like he's had love in a long time. |
| When Panda first arrived in my home and needed to learn to trust humans again..the people of the dog park (which was 2 blocks from my home) helped me out. They'd see me walking by with him and while they encouraged me to come in as I had done previously with my other furkids. At that time, I was just getting to know him and didn't want to take the risk but I walked by daily and what we finally agreed on and it worked wonders was this... If they saw me out and about on the street...they would stop and greet Panda by name and offer him a cookie. My neighbors did the same thing. I'll never forget the time a city crew truck pulled up infront of me as he and I were walking ...turned out one of the woman who worked for the engineering dept was inside the truck along with some of the male crew. As a dog owner/lover and somone I knew from the dog park..the crew kept kibbles in the truck for dogs they'd come across. Pet supply places are good too as they allow people to come in with dogs...but that's only if there is one within walking distance in your case. Anyhow...I dunno who was more astonished...me or Panda but each stood quietly and gave him a treat. Eventually, over time, he lost his wariness of men. You may just get a good friend to possibly help out but not making a fuss over him, nor try to pet him but merely standing outside your home...and offer him a treat. Slowly I think it dawned on Panda...hey people aren't all bad. You could almost see the thinking process going on. However, I didn't keep it up or encourage it afterwards as I wouldn't want the dog to view every potential person walking down the street to have a treat for him. I just did it long enough for him to be able to be at ease with new people especially men whom I'm sure he had never had a positive contact with previously. Oh forgot one thing...no petting...talking is okay as you don't want to place them in potential harms way...and flat hand not fingers hanging on to the treat. |
| Are you guys ready for this?? I went across town to Whole Foods for the Rescue remedy and some other groceries and all the way hom I kept thinking... "I'll be surprised if Mr. Muffin is still in the fence area." Sure enough, coming down the driveway, I saw a flash of apricot dart around the corner...and there he was, hanging out in front of the garage, all smiles and wiggles. He saw me get out of the car and came flying to me just covering me with doggie kisses. He was so happy, he was grinning from ear to ear, wagging his little butt in lightening speed. I left him off the leash and he just hung out with Kilo and Sweetie, always coming running back to me when I called his name (minding me better than my other two!!). He followed me eagerly in the house like he had been living here all of his life, poked his head in the grocery bags on the floor and promptly pulled out a piece of cornbread (Of course I asked him to give it back ... and he did.I could not be more elated!!  as i watch them play!!! |
  Good boy Mr Muffin. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
And there, dear Ellen, is your reward for the day!! Good job!  |
 I knew you could do it...hopefully he will learn to stay home now Emailed the behaviorist I know in NY...will get you in touch when I hear back! |
| Lisa, he is a good boy. What an amazing animal actually. When one of my husband's employees came by for a minute, he called to him and MM went right over to him to be petted. Scott has had a wonderful night with him too. As for mom here, my feet have hardly touched the floor I've been so happy! The reward of the century Violet Letting him just be a dog and be a natural part of us was like flipping a switch. (I pray this is not the "up" before the "down") I gave all 3 dogs the Rescue remedy, 4 drops each on a treat... I also gave Kilo 2 drops of the Chicory to see if he will stop being so territorial...and Sweetie also got 2 drops of wild rose for depression. It was a peaceful night - was it really that easy? Did the RR help that much or was it coincidence?? Either way, i will not look a gift horse in the mouth yet... Next job: To get a doggie ramp for the SUV and begin coaxing Mr. Muffin to walk up & down, go in and out. I figured once I can get him to lie down in the back comfortably with no real fear, then I can start the motor and just leave it parked with us in it til he gets used to that. Then little rides, etc. This will be a big hurdle too but he must learn to ride. i can't drug him up every time I need to take him to the vet or anywhere. And once he's comfortable riding (or at least tolerant) then he can begin to go with my other two and I, who go everywhere with me. After today, I hate the thought of trying to leave him fenced...and the little stinker will just dig out anyway. Kathy, maybe your therapist or her referral will have a better idea... I am looking forward to communicating about this. Thank you! Okay, time for NCIS if I'm not too late - G'night all and thank you!! |
Okay me and the boys are doing the happy dance now  Wonderful news! Keep up the great work!! Ellen, Scott, MM, Kilo and Sweetie!! |
| i've been quietly cheerleading for mm to do what i figured he could. i'll bet marianne's happy dance is better than mine. betcha if kilo and sweetie get in the suv first and mm has the ramp, wallah !!! and it's off you go. kudos to you and the gang |
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| Ellen, What do you call MM when you call him? Muffin? Mr. Muffin? |
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| this is all great news!!! Keeping fingers crossed all continues to go well. |
| Ellen, I am so proud of you! I did talk to Lynn the behaviorist in NY tonight.. Will get you two in touch tomorrow, will email you! I loved what she said when, I said you were willing to pay for a phone consult... She said...No way, I should pay people that save dogs!  |
| That is great news! Good boy Mr. Muffin! |
CamVal1 wrote: Ellen, What do you call MM when you call him? Muffin? Mr. Muffin? Good morning It depends... sometimes Mr. Muffin, sometimes Muffin, Muffie and occasionally a "you gotta be kiddin' me" Why do you ask?? Okay, Day "2" is now officially underway |
| Good Luck today Ellen. I just remembered.... our trainer we used when we brought Mattie into our home had us use a DAP plug in, and she also wore a DAP collar. Dog Appeasing Pharemones. I think it helped. It's another calming thing. Maybe get the plug in and it will always be in the house for all of dogs. How did the night go? Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
babysheepie wrote: Good Luck today Ellen. I just remembered.... our trainer we used when we brought Mattie into our home had us use a DAP plug in, and she also wore a DAP collar. Dog Appeasing Pharemones. I think it helped. It's another calming thing. Maybe get the plug in and it will always be in the house for all of dogs. How did the night go? Lisa Frankie and Mattie Hi Lisa! The night went quite well! Thanks for the DAP info. I tried to find out what the actual chemicals are in it and couldn't find that anywhere... I will keep looking. I have heard that it takes 2 - 3 weeks for the testosterone / hormones to settle down after neutering? i sure hope so, because when I let MM out, he heads straight for the neighbors retriever who is roaming the neighborhood. He was quite "busy" with her this morning... If she hasn't been spayed, and her parents don't keep her inside when she's in heat, I can't control that. It's been hard to keep him nearby but the good news is he still comes back here. We are his "base" if nothing else! So I am going to teach him how to go in and out the doggie door; this way, when we leave, before he learns how to ride, he can come and go like my other two dogs can do all the time... I am also getting him his own GPS collar like Kilo has, immediately. Then i am going to pretty much just relax over all of this, because if we are to keep Mr. Muffin, I cannot control his every waking moment, nor change all of my dogs behavior to accommodate him either - not to mention our total lifestyle. He has had his shots, is neutered, will be getting treated for heartworm, we'll see what, if anything, we can do about his hip, he has tons of non-stop love now and a home he knows he belongs to... right now, if any of us are going to keep our sanity, I have to let the rest go. We live in a small neighborhood in a cul-de-sac... very little traffic and neighbors that get along. My dogs, and all of the neighbors dogs have roamed free for years. This is the way it will need to be for our new baby. (Besides, he lived in these woods for who knows how long before living with me...so he "knows" his way around quite well) Least this is my thinking on "Day 2" Thanks!! |
sad_stray_finder wrote: CamVal1 wrote: Ellen, What do you call MM when you call him? Muffin? Mr. Muffin? Good morning It depends... sometimes Mr. Muffin, sometimes Muffin, Muffie and occasionally a "you gotta be kiddin' me" Why do you ask?? Okay, Day "2" is now officially underway No reason. Just curious. |
| FWIW, regarding the testosterone, we adopted an older tomcat about a year ago that had been rescued after being found injured by the side of the road. He was neutered, and once he recovered from his injuries, we had nearly three weeks of him literally climbing the walls, windows and doors until the hormones stopped raging. He has turned into the biggest, most mellow lap cat ever, but it was touch and go there for a while as to whether we'd be able to keep him. |
| Isn't MM supposed to be being kept quiet due to his heartworm? I know it's so hard to do this, but.... |
Ron wrote: Isn't MM supposed to be being kept quiet due to his heartworm? I know it's so hard to do this, but.... I did ask the doctor about whether or not he could be active prior to his HW treatment starting, and she said to let him romp and play for now. I have my concerns though, like you, because I would think any exertion would put a strain on his heart and lungs right now. Tomorrow I had planned to call UF Shands Small Animal Hospital and speak to them. I would like a more definitive answer as to what "stage" MM is. She had no real answer for me, and i do know there are different options depending on stages of infestation. |
| you are doing such a great job no matter what happens we all know you are doing such a great thing for him!! |
| Most here probably contain/control their dogs. Beyond the dog's well being, the legal liability for a dog's actions is the deciding factor. But this boy now has a home, food and an owner that will provide for his medical needs. He's in a much better place than he was earlier. And the tracking device will allow them to quickly go out and find him if he fails to return home. I did wild bird rescue for a number of years so I'm familiar with nurture, release and hope for the best. sad_stray_finder wrote: My neighbor down the street hates the dog and wants animal control to come get him because he howls every morning he says around 4am and wakes him up. Probably best to let this neighbor know he's now your dog so he doesn't end up at animal control if he spots him. The microchip/rabies license will help ac get him back to you. The fee to reclaim a dog here is $120 plus $20 per day... not sure what it is there but I'd talk with him to hopefully prevent him from having him picked up. Since he's now shaved down, it's a perfect time to start play-grooming. His coat is going to require maintenance as you saw first hand. Play-grooming will get him used to being handled... feet, ears, entire body... so you can personally address the needs without sedation next time. Work up to getting him used to an electric clipper because he'll likely need to be shaved down from time to time. As for his hip... with all the activities he's doing, it must be a fused injury and not bone grinding bone. His high level of activity is probably a good sign he won't require surgery. Nature sometimes does well enough on it's own. Continued best wishes. |
6Girls wrote: Most here contain/control their dogs. Beyond the dog's well being, the legal liability for a dog's actions is the deciding factor. But this boy now has a home, food and an owner that will provide for his medical needs. He's in a much better place than he was earlier. And the tracking device will allow them to quickly go out and find him if he fails to return home. I did wild bird rescue for a number of years so I'm familiar with nurture, release and hope for the best. sad_stray_finder wrote: My neighbor down the street hates the dog and wants animal control to come get him because he howls every morning he says around 4am and wakes him up. Probably best to let this neighbor know he's now your dog so he doesn't end up at animal control if he spots him. The microchip/rabies license will help ac get him back to you. The fee to reclaim a dog here is $120 plus $20 per day... not sure what it is there but I'd talk with him to hopefully prevent him from having him picked up. Since he's now shaved down, it's a perfect time to start play-grooming. His coat is going to require maintenance as you saw first hand. Play-grooming will get him used to being handled... feet, ears, entire body... so you can personally address the needs without sedation next time. Work up to getting him used to an electric clipper because he'll likely need to be shaved down from time to time. As for his hip... with all the activities he's doing, it must be a fused injury and not bone grinding bone. His high level of activity is probably a good sign he won't require surgery. Nature sometimes does well enough on it's own. Continued best wishes. Great idea about getting him used to the shaver! You guys are the best! The neighbor down the street already knows we rescued him and he was glad. MM has on an orange collar with his name, our address and our phone number on it. The neighbor(s) would never call animal control because they just "see" a collared dog, and animal control "can" pick one up if it isn't contained but they have already told me in person they don't pick up dogs with collars and rabies tags. I think now it is a case of understaffed/underpaid/overworked like everywhere else in the country. Heck, the neighbor called them when he was a stray howling in the woods beside his house waking him up in the wee hours of the morning and they told him then to just "call the police", that there was nothing they could do. Anyway, I had planned to just mail out to the neighbors a picture of "before" and "after" of MM, letting them know he is our dog now and that he is neutered and shy, giving them a bit of his background. I agree this isn't the perfect situation, him coming and going at will, but I think (hope) it's better than him going to live somewhere else. He seems very happy, if that matters. As for his hip, I think nature tried to "fix" it with the calcium build-up, but I do not believe that surgery is out of the picture... I still see him limp occasionally. And with him coming and going again, I would think re-injury is definitely in his future. I got him some natural anti-inflammatories yesterday since his medicine was used up, but i may call the vet to just see if they have something a bit stronger for him - maybe even some pain medication on "standby". |
| Ellen, Everything you have been writing to update us about muffin, has been wonderful, there certainly is an adjustment period, and just like kids, dogs, ( especially special needs ones like Muffin) do not come with handbooks. I have been so impressed by the way you have handled everything, and not become to overwhelmed with all the advice ( albeit loving and kind hearted) It just must feel overwhelming at times. I am sure Muffin will settle down with car issues, his fear is proabably more from the outside of the vehicle, and when he is inside, so are you, and you are his " person"... so he will want to be with you... treats and calming voice are key ( both of which you excel at) and prob some slow rides around cul de sac.. and beofre you know it, he will be begging to go for a ride. In the beggining, my dog was very, very nervous in the car, riding in the back,. he would throw up or poop! But when I realized that he needed to be near me, in the front, for reassurance, he just curled up and fell asleep. He was big and gangly too, like a white deer ( all legs) but they slowly teach us, what they need,.. just like children. Good luck, ! Wendy |
essgee52 wrote: FWIW, regarding the testosterone, we adopted an older tomcat about a year ago that had been rescued after being found injured by the side of the road. He was neutered, and once he recovered from his injuries, we had nearly three weeks of him literally climbing the walls, windows and doors until the hormones stopped raging. He has turned into the biggest, most mellow lap cat ever, but it was touch and go there for a while as to whether we'd be able to keep him. Wow. I can imagine that! A cat around my dogs would be miserable. I feed the squirrels and birds and Kilo and Sweetie i swear think I am baiting them up just for them to be able to chase. But thank you for the good news. I hope our Mr. Muffin turns out to be not such a ladies man too And thank you Wendy for your kind words. I am just feeling my way around and with all of the helpful, experienced advice, I have had a great lantern(s) to guide me along ! |
sad_stray_finder wrote: As for his hip, I think nature tried to "fix" it with the calcium build-up, but I do not believe that surgery is out of the picture... I still see him limp occasionally. And with him coming and going again, I would think re-injury is definitely in his future. Talk with the orthopedic vet but this is likely the problem as things stand... There's mandatory confinement, then strictly controlled activity for several weeks following hip surgery in order for it to be successful. Crate rest and brief leash walks at first. It can be months before a dog is allowed to run without restriction. And containment is already proving impossible. See how he does with confinement and his upcoming heartworm treatment... that may tell whether pursuing hip surgery is possible. I'm currently exploring surgical options, rehab and recovery for one of mine with hip dysplasia... other orthopedic issues may not justify it. You might visit this FB page for info- https://www.facebook.com/TopDogHealth?s ... 0442206389 Dogs are very stoic... even if in constant pain they can hide it well. Long term use of NSAIDS (Prevacox, Metacam, Rimadyl) for their anti-inflammatory benefits and an actual pain medication like Tramadol or others may be enough to give him comfort. Monitoring blood work every 6 months or so for liver/kidney function. If the ortho vet indicates surgery isn't an option now due to his inability to be confined, over the next several months or years he may still learn to accept restrictions/restraint and surgery can be revisited. But the first thing is getting him through his upcoming hw treatment... |
6Girls wrote: sad_stray_finder wrote: As for his hip, I think nature tried to "fix" it with the calcium build-up, but I do not believe that surgery is out of the picture... I still see him limp occasionally. And with him coming and going again, I would think re-injury is definitely in his future. Talk with the orthopedic vet but this is likely the problem as things stand... There's mandatory confinement, then strictly controlled activity for several weeks following hip surgery in order for it to be successful. Crate rest and brief leash walks at first. It can be months before a dog is allowed to run without restriction. And containment is already proving impossible. See how he does with confinement and his upcoming heartworm treatment... that may tell whether pursuing hip surgery is possible. I'm currently exploring surgical options, rehab and recovery for one of mine with hip dysplasia... other orthopedic issues may not justify it. You might visit this FB page for info- https://www.facebook.com/TopDogHealth?s ... 0442206389 Dogs are very stoic... even if in constant pain they can hide it well. Long term use of NSAIDS (Prevacox, Metacam, Rimadyl) for their anti-inflammatory benefits and an actual pain medication like Tramadol or others may be enough to give him comfort. Monitoring blood work every 6 months or so for liver/kidney function. If the ortho vet indicates surgery isn't an option now due to his inability to be confined, over the next several months or years he may still learn to accept restrictions/restraint and surgery can be revisited. But the first thing is getting him through his upcoming hw treatment... Facing this it does seem quite overwhelming, just due to the logistics... I agree the HW is 1st, get him pain meds and anti-inflammatories to control what we can for hip problems in the meanwhile, as we are working on his phobias and the SA so I can leave him/take him. <sigh> I want several orthos to look at his x-rays...just like I want a 2nd opinion on his HW. Often I wonder if it would be more "humane" for someone else to take him, but I cannot stand the thought of him going into foster care (at least 3rd home), then adopted out (4th home) then what if it doesn't work out? back to foster to adoption, etc? His SA is a huge, huge problem because it limits the care i can give him and my other dogs. Hopefully that will soon be resolving...but until then, even the HW will be touch and go because he gets so UPSET. Even if I can coax and manipulate to get him in a crate, he gets so agitated when he is alone, or not outside... it's a problem to say the least. I have kept the FB link Jaci...sounds like some reading in my future. maybe I can pick up some tips for now even... Thank you! |
| If & when you ever get as far as the hip surgery, listen to Jaci. Restricted movement & confinement is an absolute must. The surgery itself is very expensive. The specialists aren't telling you to confine & restict for no reason. If rehab is not done properly the dog can be worse off than before. This type of surgery & rehab takes a huge commitment from the owners & a huge amount of trust in the owner from the dog's standpoint. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: If & when you ever get as far as the hip surgery, listen to Jaci. Restricted movement & confinement is an absolute must. The surgery itself is very expensive. The specialists aren't telling you to confine & restict for no reason. If rehab is not done properly the dog can be worse off than before. This type of surgery & rehab takes a huge commitment from the owners & a huge amount of trust in the owner from the dog's standpoint. Yes, I understand that and I am listening to Jaci and everyone else. I am sorry if it appears i am not. I am not trying to be difficult here. I am a realist knowing what we lack and can and cannot provide. So if i cannot do everything perfectly, is it your opinion that MM would be better off to be given away now and put in foster care immediately or euthanized? Do you have a better option or ideas? i will consider anything for MM. |
| oh ellen, just had to mention, not everyone would pick an orange collar. on my last seemingly impossible wild ride rescue, the orange collar saved that boy's life twice that i know of. way to go.  although muffin better not even think about leaving paradise found. |
sad_stray_finder wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: If & when you ever get as far as the hip surgery, listen to Jaci. Restricted movement & confinement is an absolute must. The surgery itself is very expensive. The specialists aren't telling you to confine & restict for no reason. If rehab is not done properly the dog can be worse off than before. This type of surgery & rehab takes a huge commitment from the owners & a huge amount of trust in the owner from the dog's standpoint. Yes, I understand that and I am listening to Jaci and everyone else. I am sorry if it appears i am not. I am not trying to be difficult here. I am a realist knowing what we lack and can and cannot provide. So if i cannot do everything perfectly, is it your opinion that MM would be better off to be given away now and put in foster care immediately or euthanized? Do you have a better option or ideas? i will consider anything for MM. That is not what I am saying. All I am saying is if you are going to invest in that kind of surgery, do so after you have studied everything that needs done & why so you can make adjustments in your lifestyle to accomodate the rehab time & necessities. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: sad_stray_finder wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: If & when you ever get as far as the hip surgery, listen to Jaci. Restricted movement & confinement is an absolute must. The surgery itself is very expensive. The specialists aren't telling you to confine & restict for no reason. If rehab is not done properly the dog can be worse off than before. This type of surgery & rehab takes a huge commitment from the owners & a huge amount of trust in the owner from the dog's standpoint. Yes, I understand that and I am listening to Jaci and everyone else. I am sorry if it appears i am not. I am not trying to be difficult here. I am a realist knowing what we lack and can and cannot provide. So if i cannot do everything perfectly, is it your opinion that MM would be better off to be given away now and put in foster care immediately or euthanized? Do you have a better option or ideas? i will consider anything for MM. That is not what I am saying. All I am saying is if you are going to invest in that kind of surgery, do so after you have studied everything that needs done & why so you can make adjustments in your lifestyle to accomodate the rehab time & necessities. I will of course discuss everything with the specialists ahead of time...and make decisions from there. |
| You're doing a great job! I wonder if MM is on Glucosamine? Available at any drugstore as it's for people too. Helps with arthritis and joints. Great for senior dogs and Sweetie too would benefit. Two of my guys had Hip Dysplasia and were on it until they had to go on something stronger which was vet prescribed. Good thing MM has had blood work as they won't give anything until they have that done first to see if their bodies can handle it. I know sometimes you are overwhelmed with the advice many of us give but overall it's good to be armed with a lot of info and take what you need and use it what works for you in your own household. All situations, households and dogs are unique so again just follow your gut as to what works best for you and your household. Sometimes even with the best thoughts things don't work out the way you'd like them to. Panda was slowly going blind and while I spent oodles on getting the best vet care and took him to an optomologist...in the end it was decided that the stress (not so much the surgery) but the aftercare was far too overwhelming for him. The vet, optomologist and I all agreed with the final decision. With another dog it would have been okay. Again, different dogs, different situations. You just want to make sure that MM is not experiencing pain as Jaci mentioned, animals often hide it and especially would in his case when he was living in the woods as weak animals then become a target for others. The fact that he initiates play probably means it's not unbareable at this time. You're doing good work and it's wonderful to see MM thrive in your environment. What a lucky boy to have come across you! Marianne PS I was typing this as you were typing your own post...yup I agree you are doing the best you can and more...don't worry no one is judging you..people just want to help but you ultimately are the one dealing with it on a daily basis. You are doing a fantastic job...we know it! |
| Marilyn is simply being realistic. Actually, it's unlikely that a vet would even consider MM a candidate because proper aftercare and rehab are currently impossible. This dog is not the typical dog OES lovers here are used to hearing about. An ortho vet can advise on the best approach based on the joint's mobility and his level of pain. Once evaluated, I'd shift the focus to pain management rather than putting money into correcting the injury if it's stable. A time may come when he can be better handled. SA- years later: The SA is a big obstacle. I'll face that with Panda if the doctors at Michigan State University feel she'll benefit from an FHO. Waiting until spring so snow/ice will be less of an issue for her because a slip would be detrimental. She went in for tooth extractions last month and it had been 5+ years since I had heard her forlorn howl... I didn't recognize it when I walked in the vet's office. She was sitting in the kennel having reverted to one of her SA behaviors (howling and excessive drooling) and she had temporary regression after that (peeing in the house 4 times) but it's figured out again and all is good. So believe me when I say this... I do understand the frustrations and there are moments you question what you're doing. Panda is on Tramadol... she requires an acidifier due to a low acid problem so piggybacking with an NSAID is not advised due to possible stomach bleeding. Otherwise she would be on an NSAID too. There was only whimpering/crying one time... I know she's in more pain now because she's just less active and sitting more. If surgery won't correct it, more pain medications will control it. She's also receiving Class IV laser and V.O.M. therapy. Panda's SA... then and now. There is hope for dogs with SA.  |
| I went to Whole Foods and got him some cod liver oil, vit c powder as well as I already have some "Zoom" chews that I put in his food. It has all the EPA, MSM, glucosamine, chondrontin, etc. Other dogs are on it too But i am still going to vets in the morning to get him something for pain and anti-inflammatory. 6Girls wrote: Marilyn is simply being realistic. Actually, it's unlikely that a vet would even consider MM a candidate because proper aftercare and rehab are currently impossible. This dog is not the typical dog OES lovers here are used to hearing about. An ortho vet can advise on the best approach based on the joint's mobility and his level of pain. Once evaluated, I'd shift the focus to pain management rather than putting money into correcting the injury if it's stable. A time may come when he can be better handled. SA- years later: The SA is a big obstacle. I'll face that with Panda if the doctors at Michigan State University feel she'll benefit from an FHO. Waiting until spring so snow/ice will be less of an issue for her because a slip would be detrimental. She went in for tooth extractions last month and it had been 5+ years since I had heard her forlorn howl... I didn't recognize it when I walked in the vet's office. She was sitting in the kennel having reverted to one of her SA behaviors (howling and excessive drooling) and she had temporary regression after that (peeing in the house 4 times) but it's figured out again and all is good. So believe me when I say this... I do understand the frustrations and there are moments you question what you're doing. Panda is on Tramadol... she requires an acidifier due to a low acid problem so piggybacking with an NSAID is not advised due to possible stomach bleeding. Otherwise she would be on an NSAID too. There was only whimpering/crying one time... I know she's in more pain now because she's just less active and sitting more. If surgery won't correct it, more pain medications will control it. She's also receiving Class IV laser and V.O.M. therapy. Panda's SA... then and now. There is hope for dogs with SA. Poor baby Panda. What a perfect name for a pretty baby. Yes, the speculation before I speak to a vet is nerve wracking. I will know more later as to what "is" rather than what 'if". I may have to hire a sitter to fill in for me, even during HW treatment. He doesn't howl and carry on if 'someone" is with him...but he's in horrible shape if left alone. An experienced ortho will hopefully clear it all up for me... |
| Panda boy is hijacking this post to send sloppy kisses to Panda girl and hopes she feels better soon. |
| Here's my two cents for what its worth: I wouldn't teach him the dog door yet(if you haven't already). If you need to limit his activity after HW treatment, you don't want him coming and going at will. Didn't you say that you bought him a crate? Try to get him used to it. No one here is criticizing you...we come and give our opinions. I still believe you are going above and beyond for this dog and will do whats best for him. |
Panda-girl says thank you Panda-boy and his mama!  |
Simon's Mom wrote: Here's my two cents for what its worth: I wouldn't teach him the dog door yet(if you haven't already). If you need to limit his activity after HW treatment, you don't want him coming and going at will. Didn't you say that you bought him a crate? Try to get him used to it. No one here is criticizing you...we come and give our opinions. I still believe you are going above and beyond for this dog and will do whats best for him. I have had him on the crate "pillow" all afternoon...then I figure once he falls in love with the crate pillow, I will bring the bottom half of the crate to it... he refused to get near the crate when I brought it home, so hoping this will eventually work. I don't take it as criticism, just frustrated and sad because I know it's not perfect and I want so very much to be able to help him. But location, other dogs, job, layout of house, finances, even our soil, all have to be taken into account and no matter how much i "want" something, not being able to do it does not mean I am not serious about his care or committed to his care - just limited. I was serious when i said that if someone else could do better by this sweet guy, I will be happy to turn him over to a 'forever' home with them. Honestly. I truly do want what's best for him - I just felt like right now I was his best bet, but I could be dead wrong! In a perfect world he would have stumbled into the vicinity of a person who was financially independent, had no other dogs, plenty of time on her hands, tons of help, concrete dog runs...but instead he found me So unless someone else takes him, he is stuck with me doing the best i can for him...And your opinions is what has gotten me through this so far. I could never, in a million years have done any of it without you guys, from the first day forward. I appreciate it! |
| Ellen, Please don't take offense but are nuts? Mr. M could not have "fallen" into better hands. You are doing a darn sight better then I would have done. Not that I wouldn't have tried but that first fight with the resident would have done it. Everyone knows you are trying your best. The situation may not be the best but you and all of us deal with what we have, not what we wish we had. We adopted Garfunkel when he was 2.6yrs old, Simon the resident was 1.6. Within a few weeks we had one serious fight. I questioned myself for a long time if I had done the right thing in adopting Gar. Gar is now almost 7yrs old, Simon almost 6yrs old. The one big fight is all we had. There is growling and grumbling among them but I step in and I AM the boss, so maybe I stopped what could have been another fight. You just keep on doing what "YOU" feel is best and hopefully it will turn out alright. |
| I just sent you a PM |
| I am just catching up because I don't own a computer and only use the one at work. I can't repeat enough what a fabulous job you have done with Muffin. I agree that teaching the dog door at this point might not be the best idea. Who knows what kind of trouble he could get into. When I adopted my Amazing Grace, she was 3, and had been abused, neglected and starved, submissive peeer and wasn't housebroken. I had to treat her as a new puppy and respond accordingly. I took her to as many places as possible for more socializing. Grace was my velcro girl from day one and Abbey, my Golden, and Grace loved each other from the beginning. I took Gracie to 'school' at PetSmart and we were in the puppy class. Because Gracie was abused by a man, After explaining the situation, I would give men treats to give her so she would learn all men are not bad. It took a little while but Grace would finally go up to accept the treat. And I would PRAISE THE DICKENS to her and give hugs and kisses! Gracie loved the praise even better than the treats. School was good for us for even more bonding and great socialing and self confidence for her. I still miss her terribly Oliver was a whole different story. I actually did the rescue for him and I knew immediately something was 'off'' about him. He would not look at me or anyone else and showed his teeth often. After 6-7 weeks, Oliver turned on me and bit me in the face. I took him in to be euthanized. It wasn't done that day and when I returned the vets office call, and when I found out what would happen to him (I believe there should be some dignity in death but this would not be) I picked him up the next day. Gracie watched him like a hawk (he hurt her mom) and she was able to read him. She pounded him down on more than one occasion and even drew blood on him. Gracie was small, Oliver very big. Good thing he defered to her. It took several months of training, love and patience to bring Oliver around. I did wind up keeping him. He smiles and sometimes he still likes to show me his teeth. I can even get a kiss from him when his lip is up. He is a big goofy happy boy. My point is, you have done a great job with muffin. Many suggestions on this forum but you are the one that has to choose what to try. You know Muffin and are continuing to learn about him. Only you can access the situation and respond accordingly. Muffin is where he is suppose to be. You were guided to each other. You are his Guardian Angel. Call it Devine Intervention. Also remember, animals like people, do not come with instructiona so you do the best you can. Everything is crossed for you all. Nancy G |
| I am just catching up because I don't own a computer and only use the one at work. I can't repeat enough what a fabulous job you have done with Muffin. I agree that teaching the dog door at this point might not be the best idea. Who knows what kind of trouble he could get into. When I adopted my Amazing Grace, she was 3, and had been abused, neglected and starved, submissive peeer and wasn't housebroken. I had to treat her as a new puppy and respond accordingly. I took her to as many places as possible for more socializing. Grace was my velcro girl from day one and Abbey, my Golden, and Grace loved each other from the beginning. I took Gracie to 'school' at PetSmart and we were in the puppy class. Because Gracie was abused by a man, After explaining the situation, I would give men treats to give her so she would learn all men are not bad. It took a little while but Grace would finally go up to accept the treat. And I would PRAISE THE DICKENS to her and give hugs and kisses! Gracie loved the praise even better than the treats. School was good for us for even more bonding and great socialing and self confidence for her. I still miss her terribly Oliver was a whole different story. I actually did the rescue for him and I knew immediately something was 'off'' about him. He would not look at me or anyone else and showed his teeth often. After 6-7 weeks, Oliver turned on me and bit me in the face. I took him in to be euthanized. It wasn't done that day and when I returned the vets office call, and when I found out what would happen to him (I believe there should be some dignity in death but this would not be) I picked him up the next day. Gracie watched him like a hawk (he hurt her mom) and she was able to read him. She pounded him down on more than one occasion and even drew blood on him. Gracie was small, Oliver very big. Good thing he defered to her. It took several months of training, love and patience to bring Oliver around. I did wind up keeping him. He smiles and sometimes he still likes to show me his teeth. I can even get a kiss from him when his lip is up. He is a big goofy happy boy. My point is, you have done a great job with muffin. Many suggestions on this forum but you are the one that has to choose what to try. You know Muffin and are continuing to learn about him. Only you can access the situation and respond accordingly. Muffin is where he is suppose to be. You were guided to each other. You are his Guardian Angel. Call it Devine Intervention. Also remember, animals like people, do not come with instructiona so you do the best you can. Everything is crossed for you all. Nancy G |
| Thanks everyone for your continued friendship and best wishes! Trying to get settled in over here with " my menagerie" as hubby calls it Was able to go get a 120 day supply yesterday of Previcox for MM's continued pain management with anti-inflammatories. Got a couple more copies of his hip x-rays to mail out also. Not too much different happening...still a madhouse, still working on phobia's and spreading lottsa love. Will update soon! |
| You're doing a wonderful job and thanks for the update! |
| I've been checking for updates. I'm glad to hear things are going well. Your doing great Ellen. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
| Good morning! Just a quick note while everything is quiet... First of all - What a GREAT dog. He has to win the prize for the most loving dog ever. Truly. He is about as aggressive as a goldfish. And he just loves Scott now, so that is really good news. He still fears being alone. And with his upcoming heart worm treatment, that is a BIG problem. Combined with his fear of enclosures (crates), I am not so sure that he can be kept calm if I insist he is in a crate during HW treatment. I am at the point thinking that keeping him in this small room he is accustomed to already and where he feels comfortable may be the better choice to keep him calm...but I am still at a loss as to how to keep him calm when I have to be away from him. It has been mentioned to me by a very reliable member that putting him on Heartgard instead of the fast kill HW treatment is an option. I did run that by the vet and he said it was dangerous because it can take up to 5 years to kill the worms and all during that time he is at a risk of a piece of the worm dislodging if he gets excited, runs, etc. as well as any number of other problems that could crop up. And being that he is a young dog who loves to run, romp and play, I sure can't keep him calm for 5 years... And then there's the trauma of painful injections during HW treatment. He is just coming around to trust again... how is that going to affect him?? I am making myself crazy over the decisions I must make for Mr. Muffin. I have come to love this dog so much and he is now a part of our family. My husband says to "prepare" myself if he doesn't make it thru treatment, but I know if he doesn't, it's because I didn't have his safety adequately in place. I am sure open to any thought, stories, suggestions. I must make a decision very soon and I am swinging wildly here. He is sleeping more and more it seems (lethargy?) and his appetite isn't the best...I have even heard him doing what sounds like trying to clear his throat. I don't know if that means heart worms, but i don't like it. They said he can start as early as next week... ? Thank you! ps - I just asked the technician at the clinic to ask Dr. Price if doing the pre-treat then leaving him on Heartgard until I can get the SA issue worked out, might be an option...a delay in full treatment. Also asked if there was a prescription calmative to give him during treatment. I have been using Rescue Remedy, but may need something stronger during the HW treatment, whatever it may be. Just thoughts... |
| You have ALWAYS had Mr Muffin's best interest at heart! And I am thrilled to hear what a good boy he is/has become!! That is because of YOU!! Has or is the vet going to check his breathing and lethargy b/4 treating for HW? How advanced is the HW? Like I said, you are his Guardian Angel and will do the best for him.  Also, let the vet know "we're watching him/her" Everything crossed, many prayers and angels are watching. Is there a possibility the meds are interacting and causing some problems? Just a thought.......... |
| So glad that he has taken to your hubby! |
| I would call different vets in your area and ask their opinion... I am wondering how they think this is a severe case of heartwoms esp. if they think he is only a year old?? Keep in mind it takes microfilaria 6 months to mature.. A snap test for heartworms shows a blue dot for heartworms..it doesn't saw weak or positive just lighter or darker Has he had the full blood panel done that is needed before the treatment? I would ask for that and to add on another heartworm check to be 100% It is really a personal decision on which method you go with but, I explained my thoughts. If I were keeping him I would do heartgard but, I am not a vet either |
Donner's Mom wrote: I would call different vets in your area and ask their opinion... I am wondering how they think this is a severe case of heartwoms esp. if they think he is only a year old?? Keep in mind it takes microfilaria 6 months to mature.. A snap test for heartworms shows a blue dot for heartworms..it doesn't saw weak or positive just lighter or darker Has he had the full blood panel done that is needed before the treatment? I would ask for that and to add on another heartworm check to be 100% It is really a personal decision on which method you go with but, I explained my thoughts. If I were keeping him I would do heartgard but, I am not a vet either Thank you Kathy! I was hoping I would hear from you I lost/found your tele# and just left you a vm... When you mentioned above that the snap only shows a pos or neg, it made me pick up the phone and call the vets office... the tech 'confirmed' so what was the vet talking about when she said "high" load?? Geez...glad I know the truth of it now. I like your idea about a 2nd opinion. I asked them to fax me a copy of his blood work and I would like to get a 2nd. Do you know a vet that you trust I could send the info to? I would send a check to them for a "consult" at the same time... Right now, unless something else changes, I told them I wanted to do the Heartgard, with a mind to do the full HW treatment later, when his SA gets better. (This encourages them to do the heartgard) If I do or not do the full treatment later , at least the pre-treat would be out of the way and he is stabilized The vets office also mentioned a thundershirt. Seems someone here mentioned it to me too, but I have been such a scatterbrained mess, I will go over all the posts to find it. I don't know what that is or how to use it. Do all of you members here use this shirt for separation anxiety? Thanks everybody!!! |
| I know that here in Chicago there has been a shortage of the typical heartworm treatment, so a lot of groups are doing a different treatment that takes longer, but I was told it takes more like 6-9 months. I will check up on it and see if I can get more info. Calming dogs: -thundershirts (I know some dogs it works great with, and some dogs it doesn't work at all) -DAP collar -treat toys (frozen peanut butter kong to start) -turn on a fan or soft music -use a positive reinforcement trainer to get him used to the room slowly but surely. |
HeatherRWM wrote: I know that here in Chicago there has been a shortage of the typical heartworm treatment, so a lot of groups are doing a different treatment that takes longer, but I was told it takes more like 6-9 months. I will check up on it and see if I can get more info. Calming dogs: -thundershirts (I know some dogs it works great with, and some dogs it doesn't work at all) -DAP collar -treat toys (frozen peanut butter kong to start) -turn on a fan or soft music -use a positive reinforcement trainer to get him used to the room slowly but surely. Thank you Heather! I would like to know what else may be available for HW treatments too. Lisa mentioned the DAP collar to me but I wasn't able to find out what chemicals it actually contains. After 'surviving' cancer, I am very cautious about the chemicals i subject myself to... if anybody knows, I would sure like to have this information because that sounds like a great tool for my SA arsenal |
| It's made up of DAP (the dog appeasing pheromone). It's a synthetic pheromone that mimics the pheromone that nursing mothers excrete |
HeatherRWM wrote: It's made up of DAP (the dog appeasing pheromone). It's a synthetic pheromone that mimics the pheromone that nursing mothers excrete But what "is" it? The actual chemical compound it contains or is made up of... I have googled it and can't find this out... |
| Yea, I'm assuming they purposely don't disclose that info so no one mimics it. |
HeatherRWM wrote: Yea, I'm assuming they purposely don't disclose that info so no one mimics it. Yea... bummer |
| I don't have any experience with the Thundershirt, but we do have a backpack that we weight quite heavily for our Rudy. It seems to calm him a bit when we go for walks. Also, if you decide to use a stronger calming med (prescription) for now, that might not be too bad an idea. I hate to medicate dogs if they don't need it, but it might be a really good short term solution to help during the treatment. Trust your heart. You are doing wonderful things for this boy. There are no wrong answers here. You've stepped up for him in so many wonderful ways. |
dogmom wrote: You have ALWAYS had Mr Muffin's best interest at heart! And I am thrilled to hear what a good boy he is/has become!! That is because of YOU!! Has or is the vet going to check his breathing and lethargy b/4 treating for HW? How advanced is the HW? Like I said, you are his Guardian Angel and will do the best for him. Also, let the vet know "we're watching him/her" Everything crossed, many prayers and angels are watching. Is there a possibility the meds are interacting and causing some problems? Just a thought.......... His meds are causing some aggression I think, within the first few hours after taking the previcox...and so it may very well be affecting his appetite. Good call! I will watch tomorrow... thanks for that. |
traciels28 wrote: I don't have any experience with the Thundershirt, but we do have a backpack that we weight quite heavily for our Rudy. It seems to calm him a bit when we go for walks. Also, if you decide to use a stronger calming med (prescription) for now, that might not be too bad an idea. I hate to medicate dogs if they don't need it, but it might be a really good short term solution to help during the treatment. Trust your heart. You are doing wonderful things for this boy. There are no wrong answers here. You've stepped up for him in so many wonderful ways. The vet mentioned benadryl... 50 mgs. But I have read (maybe from you guys?) that it's not predictable...so I thought I would use a smaller dose to start and just see how he does. I know with me, any thing like that makes me climb the walls As for my heart... it gets in the way now. It does great big, flip-flops when he comes to give me his wiggle doggie kisses. Who can resist??? |
First of all,  . You and your hubby are doing amazing things for this dog that literally just wandered into your backyard.I wish I had some experience for severe separation anxiety, but other folks have chimed in on that. Just wanted to share some thoughts about the meds. First, Benadryl (diphenhydramine) can make a dog drowsy, but can also make a dog hyper, so you might want to go with meds that are proven to be effective for anxiety. (Oscar takes amitriptyline for his IBD, it it is technically an anti-depressant.). Second, Mr. Muffin is facing such a complex medical situation, that it is going to require a balancing act - which I know you are working extremely hard to address. Just make sure that any pain meds or anxiety meds do not suppress respiration, as it can be a side effect of certain drugs. With his HW issues, you don't want to give him a med that will help another issue, but cause him further breathing troubles. I am mentioning this because I have extensive experience with a dog with complex medical issues. Oscar has two vets, one "regular ", one holistic, an internist, and a dermatologist. My vets can't be expected to remember everything, so I am Oscar's advocate. When they want to start him on a new med, I go over all of his existing meds with them, to make sure that it's fresh in their head when they are prescribing. When a situation is complex, sometimes things can slip through the cracks, so while I count very heavily on my vets for their amazing expertise, I make sure that I push back if I am not sure about something. Anyway, thanks again for all you are doing for Mr. Muffin. There is a special place in heaven for folks like you! And you'll be joined by many wonderful people on this forum!!! Not soon though...... Laurie and Oscar |
Guest wrote: I wish I had some experience for severe separation anxiety, but other folks have chimed in on that. Just wanted to share some thoughts about the meds. First, Benadryl (diphenhydramine) can make a dog drowsy, but can also make a dog hyper, so you might want to go with meds that are proven to be effective for anxiety. (Oscar takes amitriptyline for his IBD, it it is technically an anti-depressant.). Second, Mr. Muffin is facing such a complex medical situation, that it is going to require a balancing act - which I know you are working extremely hard to address. Just make sure that any pain meds or anxiety meds do not suppress respiration, as it can be a side effect of certain drugs. With his HW issues, you don't want to give him a med that will help another issue, but cause him further breathing troubles. I am mentioning this because I have extensive experience with a dog with complex medical issues. Oscar has two vets, one "regular ", one holistic, an internist, and a dermatologist. My vets can't be expected to remember everything, so I am Oscar's advocate. When they want to start him on a new med, I go over all of his existing meds with them, to make sure that it's fresh in their head when they are prescribing. When a situation is complex, sometimes things can slip through the cracks, so while I count very heavily on my vets for their amazing expertise, I make sure that I push back if I am not sure about something. Laurie and Oscar Thank you for this. I wish i knew another vet around that I could trust to "be on top of it ll", but I might as well just flip a coin. I rthink tomorrow I am going to call the safe animal shelter to see if they can recommend a good vet. the folks that run those no-kill shelters must have a heart and hopefully, great minds will think alike. This is no slam on the vets office here - they may be incredible with all of this - but I think like Kathy said, a 2nd opinion is definitely in order here...and hopefully i can get answers with all the meds too. (After all, it is life and death for my Muffin!) Dr. Price had mentioned anti-depressants before when I inquired, and he said they take weeks to kick in - not a short term solution when wanting to start treatment (of some sort) next week... I have been with MM every day - most all day, every day - since the beginning and it is hard not to love him. He really is a special dog... patient, hoping for love, willing to be whatever I want him to be yet has a spunk about him and an aloofness with pride...he is veerry smart too. I can't wait til he's all healthy, can run and play the way he wants to play, ride in the car and see life as an adventure instead of with timidness. He is worth all of this. |
| Try yelp.com to see if you can read some reviews of other vets! You may find a good one that way. |
sad_stray_finder wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: The vets office also mentioned a thundershirt. Seems someone here mentioned it to me too, but I have been such a scatterbrained mess, I will go over all the posts to find it. I don't know what that is or how to use it. Do all of you members here use this shirt for separation anxiety? Thanks everybody!!! Just wanted to chime in that although I don't use a thundershirt for separation anxiety, I DO use one with my corgi for general anxiety. I cannot recommend it enough. We were having issues with him getting out of sorts every time someone would walk by our apartment door and whenever he heard something outside. He also has anxiety issues with having friends over who are loud, he just can't lay down and relax around them. Within 15 minutes of putting the thundershirt on him he was sound asleep and didn't care AT ALL about the people walking by our apartment. I even had to deliver his dinner to the couch, he was so relaxed he wasn't even going to get up and come get his food, which is unheard of in this house! Now when we have friends over we put the shirt on him and he will put himself in his crate and pass out. So I highly, highly recommend it. Plus there is a 45 day return policy with the company, so it's pretty much risk-free. We sell them where I work and we rarely get them returned. It's worth a shot! |
| Just wanted to chime in here. We used to have a dog who suddenly started having panic attacks before storms. They would last until the very last rumble of thunder was over...sometimes it would be five or six hours. A half pill of amytriptyline (no idea how to spell that) was his salvation! (We did have to experiment. He was originally prescribed one to two at a time, based on weight. Turned out one full pill knocked him right out. A half pill ended up being perfect.) Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I wasn't a fan of drugging him, but it helped him so much. |
| I had never heard of Thundershirts, nor much about Heartworm cures, as it's extremely rare in my area and I've never come across a dog that has it. Just goes to show I'm not a know it all!! Thanks for the helpful info everyone posted as it helps educate others (like me) reading the forum. Hope you get it resolved Ellen and you are in the best place to get great advice from so many informative people. Sending best wishes to Mr. Muffin! Marianne |
| Agreed, loads of good info here from so many, many experienced and helpful people!! As per vet recommendations, I will try Yelp, great idea Heather. PWCorgi: I had hubby pick one up last night at PetSmart. hopefully it's the right size. When I took it out of the box and saw all these 'flaps", I knew i would have to have him help me figure it out! I doubt MM will stand still long enough for me to fumble around trying to figure it out Is it supposed to be just "snug" but not tight, right? Thanks for the vote of confidence in the shirt! And I will inquire into the amytriptyline today too, thanks Tracie. I have been given a liaison at the vets office who writes down all of my questions and asks the doc... I kind of like that for right now. Thanks again!! Last night, for the first time, Muffin slept in his dog bed in the bedroom with us all night long! Usually he will slept there for a few hours then get up, restless and i would take him back to his own "room", but last night he stuck it out. I didn't sleep because halfway in I realized I had forgotten to put his belly band on, so I kept waking up all night to see if he had slipped away...but he never did. He would raise his head to make sure i was still there across the room, then put his head back down again. I left many side lights on, and the tv with sound down low, so this week, I will start easing off night lights, a little at a time. It's a good start I feel... I would really like to spend time with hubby instead of the cot!!And hubby says he is going to get a sturdy ramp maybe today so i can start working with him. I have been leaving the side door open to the SUV and he has gone over several times to stick his head in and sniff... here's hoping!! |
| This story is continued here: Dealing with a Heartworm Positive Rescue Dog |
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