Sad, sad, stray in Middleburg, FL Part-4
When we first got Rudy (who we think was crated/isolated before breaking out and living life as a stray) he wasn't interested in toys. This toy changed all that. First we showed it to him, rolling it while he watched, snagging treats. Then he quickly started pushing it with his nose. It might be something to try. Also, the separation anxiety will lessen in time. When we first got Rudy he wouldn't even sleep in our presence. He would lay quietly, but keep his eyes open and on us. I'm guessing he slept while kennelled when we were out, but even free in the bedroom at night I was aware of him pacing and watching. It took about a year to housebreak him, and about the same amount of time before he decided he could sleep on the bed one room over from us and the world wouldn't end. You sure celebrate the small things when you bring a dog who doesn't know how to be a dog into your life. The thing is, it's so worth it (as you've discovered). Our other dog we got as a pup, and we love him to pieces of course, but our Rudy is filled with love and gratitude, and that's just so special. Hugs to you and to Mr. Muffin. |
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| Thanks guys. I think it will be easier when I can "let him out" to play. He will have to be off pain killers first...and i guess the incisions need to be really healed. We do not have a "fenced yard". The only part of the yard fenced is what we did to capture him. My own dogs have always roamed free in and out the doggie door. He will have to eventually do that too because i can't "lock" my dogs out or keep him penned in either. UGH. Hurry Mr. Time...  |
| It's great to hear the happy updates! Yup, I would let MM know that humping is not acceptable even if the other dog seems okay with it as it may be a precedent for a fight. It's showing dominance or he's testing the dominance of the other dog and while one dog may be okay with it, another dog may immediately fight him because of it. In my household it was Panda (neutered) whom tried to hump the equally aged Gilligan as he found somone that was more submissive than him. The others didn't bother. I immediately stopped it by distraction as I worried about Gilligans hips (he had severe HD) and the other dogs reactions. Merlin would expecially get anxious and upset if he saw Panda coming up behind Gilligan. Merlin also never tolerated Panda or Snoop eating a bone but would allow Gillian to have one. Go fiqure? He may have just been looking out for the old guy? Ahhh the joys of a multi-dog household. We lived with four boys for the last 2 years. It's good that you have some mix of sexes in your household( so much easier) and truthfully while the boys seem to be the dominant one....when a female gets mad in rare times...she puts the boys in their place. Normally the oldest pre-existing dog in the household is Alpha and MM might start testing the heirachy in the next few days or weeks as he gets better. Good advice too regarding they sense when one is ill or new and that is the time they may challenge the status. Eventually they all work it out and peace comes...but watch out for when they start testing one another. You GS may have loved to play with him but may suddenly say ....hey wait a min....now you're in my home ....that's different. He's just been neutered, but it actually takes a few weeks for the hormones to leave the body...3 -6 wks in some cases. Merlin who has spent his entire life spoiled and loved , has never shown an interest in toys or balls. Panda took several years before he learned how to play with them Snoop is still learning about toys at age 3 I like the idea someone suggested about getting a toy with holes and filling it with treats or you may think about getting a Kong and stuffing it with peanut butter and kibbles or cream cheese to help with the anxiety when you are gone. Panda experienced it too when he arrived and I would stay with him and re-enter the room 5 mins later, then increase the time as days went by. This will help your door in the long haul as you will eventually need to go out at some point!  You're doing great and seems like you know your furkids so well you'll be able to tell by their body language when they are becoming annoyed and it's always better to end on a postive note. Baby steps with everything! You'll be fine! Marianne |
| Brick always humped Zeke and Zeke never fought back. And as we saw at Sheepiepalooza last year, several of the male dogs were humping Zeke. None of us know why. Zeke just stood there and never tried to shake the other dog (he's such a sweetheart  )And Zeke never cared for toys. No interest whatsoever. He likes biscuits, and bones, and dingo wraps, and those kinds of things, but never toys. Doesn't know how to fetch & has no interest in learning. As a matter of fact, if you throw a ball, he'll run in the opposite direction. Goofy dog. |
| Oh my goodness! We had family in this weekend and then I had a couple of horrid pain days, and I am JUST NOW getting to read everything that has happened since Fri am! wow! so much progress!!!! labradoodle? probably... would explain the crazy energy, coat color, etc... of course could just as easily be a goldendoodle. maybe one of those DNA tests to find out? I think we'd all "chip-in" for that too just to find out the answer our dogs - the 6 month old OES humps the air over our 14 pound poodle. both boys. goofy dogs. the problem with pain meds, is the dogs don't feel the pain and act up. I know we don't want them hurting, we also don't want them to HURT themselves... so can you half the pain meds, or ask the vet about it? I'd love to send Stephanie a thing or two to think about- I hope she never needs help 'cause no one is going to give it to her!!! sheesh, some people!!! We will do the chip in tonight- so sorry about the HW and now surgery too. AND starting from scratch with training etc... So, collar, but no tag or microchip? I guess that makes MM all yours! Ballpark would be an adorable nickname... just sayin' could you make a "sand box" in the corner of the room in case he needs to go while inside? not sure if that's a good long term solution with trying to potty train... but I know all that pee and poop must be making you crazy. well, I can now go on with my day, I HAD to sit down and see how everything turned out, and didn't want to try to do it on my iphone... so now I'm caught up and MM is safe, shaved, warm, eating hotdogs like a champion, and KEEP up the updates and pics... if this site isn't evidence enough we NEVER get tired of updates. and to everyone else checking in and updating and helping, WHAT A GREAT BUNCH you all are! We don't know this family, but in our heart we KNOW they are doing the right thing and how great it is to be able to help in some small way blessings to all! Lori |
| A jumble of info... maybe something will be appropriate... Guest wrote: It was so quiet in the living room where i hauled butt to because Kilo (shepherd) and Muffin ran down the hallway chasing each other, so i cut thru scared there'd be trouble and it was Muffin who had 'climbed" on Kilo's back with this most mischeivious look and big grin on his face... Kilo was totally bewildered. OMG He was just NUETERED!! Isn't that supposed to stop? And Kilo is another boy! I don't allow humping here. Just what I did when we welcomed Kobuck... (we later found he had only been half-neutered  ). There will of course be big differences because my boy was much loved and had training.I supervised 100% of the time they were together... whether loose, tethered, or crated. I set limits from day one... it's harder to change/correct something you previously allowed. I kept him on a leash... 4' or 6'... so I could use it to remove/control him while giving a firm "OFF!" command if he started to mount, lick, etc. I'd watch the body language... if I saw him even thinking about mounting, he was told "OFF!" and redirected. Kobuck dragging a leash...  If his behavior got too exuberant or obnoxious, I tethered him to the door... he was still part of the pack but he couldn't pester anyone. But I always supervised... if I couldn't supervise, he was put back in his crate in his room.  Below is the dog I have to be careful with... Meesha. Of course she's the smallest dog in the pack. (Thinking my black dog is like your brown dog... basing that on the body language in the early video.) So we used a crate or leash-tether in a high traffic area. Important though... if you cannot be right there to supervise, the dog should be crated in another room behind a closed door... not left in a crate in the same room as dogs that are free to roam. Later, yes... to start, no. The dog in the crate no longer has the ability of fight or flight and may feel cornered.  I would personally limit his freedom and require him to earn it... just as you would a puppy. Encourage calm interaction unless they're playing outdoors. In my guy's case, he had learned good self control by neuter surgery time. But by 3 weeks post-surgery, the URGE that had been the reason for his humping had completely disappeared. His focus shifted from the back end of the dogs to the front and he was now able to focus on normal dog interaction. So 3 weeks was the magic number. If it's dominance, it won't just stop but limits will definitely make a big difference. Because of Meesha, it took about 6 months to allow Kobuck full run of the house. He had to learn where she slept because it's off limits to the pack... it's just a small area beside our bed. We never had any fights because it was a gradual process. Funny thing is, Meesha LIKES Kobuck. He gets right in her face, he batted her in the head the other day. The crab pot was won over by the marshmallow man. I would use only small treats. Giving large treats often requires a dog do chew and drop part of it... what falls to the floor is often fair game in a dog's mind. Small treats are more apt to stay in the mouth. I wouldn't leave anything on the floor that might be coveted and initiate a dog fight. They can get possessive over the dumbest things... even a dirty sock, a piece of paper, etc.... something no one really even wants! I would take time to start training him now... the first command that's beneficial from a packs viewpoint is "leave it" and "look at me". If you need help with it, let me know. Quote: He acts like he was owned by somebody who left him alone, probably tied or chained up, for long periods of time. Maybe even hit him, because if you move too quickly around him, he just cringes and bows down, like he is expecting to be hit. It's heart breaking. Hard to know if anything happened in the past. No matter the cause, ignore the cringing/cowering... don't coddle him. Just go about your regular activities. The separation anxiety will lessen once you've built the trust. He needs to learn that you will return to him and that takes time... you showing him over and over and over again by example that you will return, starting with short durations (a minute). I know I don't need to say this but you never scold a dog with SA for the pee on the floor, the poop on the bed... or the chewed to pieces car starter, the huge kettle of water hauled off the stove, the gas stove being turned on, etc. You just clean up the mess and go on from there. If you later find the emotions are too strong, look into a medication to help take the edge off... mainly for the dog. Try to avoid situations that might encourage jealousy. If I see a dog trying to covet me, I stand up and remove myself from the situation... no own gets me if they can't behave. Bumble is one that will still try to do that... he attempts to lay claim to the uprights sometimes if we're sitting down. Just being observant can help prevent conflict and keep peace. And take time for your other two dogs, to give them the attention they're used to... the one-on-one time they've had in the past. Train each dog separately for a while and when you feel the time is right, train in twos, then bring the pack together for training. Hard to do sometimes but I think it's important when trying to bring a pack together. |
| Regarding the humping: China trys to hump Asia periodically. When China springs into action, I tell her "down". I have noticed, however, that China uses her "wrestler hold" in two different situations. 1. when for whatever reason she wants to play with Asia. 2. The other time I notice if I'm trying to get Asia to do something or stop doing something and she's not listening, China will step in and do the Wrestler's hold on her and Asia stops. I find that interesting. It took a while, but I've finally taught Asia to just get up off the floor when China starts. I might point out Asia is a big bigger then China so when Asia stands up, off goes China. Both of my girls are fixed. I've never considered it a sexual thing or a dominence thing either. I adopted Asia from a situation where she was not treated well. When she first came she would not eat a milk bone given to her, only the crumbs of ones off the floor. It took a while before she felt worthy to have her own milk bone. Asia was basically left out in the backyard all by herself most of the time, while the other dogs of the house were in the house. When she was brought in the house she was put into a crate and left in there while the other dogs had a run of the house. It was really sad. When she first came to live with us she had submissive peeing issues. We never made a big deal out of it, just cleaned it up. She's smart and learned quickly to go out the doggy door. When I leave the house without her, she does cry, but is so happy when I come home. Asia does sleep on my bed with me. China goes up and down during the night and Violet keeps the bed warm during the day. lol Things will work out. It just takes time. Best of luck and there may come a day when you say "i don't know what I did before my Mr Muffin came to live with us, he makes my sun rise." |
| Dr de hann and dr peck are the surgeons I have used at the Orlando vet specialists. It was so great to see the new photos! You are amazing with him. There are many here with lots of knowledge, as you can see. This forum is so helpful! Ok will see about a road trip to visit mr muffin any you! |
| I'm going to add my own jumble. When we got Gar at 2.6yrs old, he was in rescue for only 3weeks. He was totally wired, hyper, not housebroken, fell in love with Simon, felt that Simon was his safety blanket and personal chew toy. He did not play with toys and had started to chew on bones just the week before. August he will be 7yrs old. He is still hyper and Simon is still his personal chew toy. Every once in a while he will pick up one of Simon's toys and stand there totally befuddled and than drop it and walk away. He has been neutered since we got him but he still trys to mount all other dogs. I've heard its a dominance thing. I don't put him in a mix of other dogs without a muzzle because some dogs don't like being herded with TEETH which can cause fights. I'm assuming you don't crate MM. You might start trying to get him used to it. Feed him in it. Put him in and stay in the room and treat like crazy if he doesn't cry or go ballistic. It may be a hard win. I know you said he doesn't like bones but try to put him in with a nice yummy one and he may get the idea. Gates are a wonderful invention. The dogs can see you but not interrupt what you may be doing. It was great to see that he came back "into" the house after getting out. It shows that he is starting to trust you. The SA is not great but there are great suggestions here on how to deal with it. TIME, can move fast, or slow. Depending on what you want or need. You are doing GREAT!!!! P.S. Just used the chipin. |
| Thanks again for all the helpful info. I have given much thought to baby gates and i wish so much they would work here, but lots of openings that are not gate friendly, bad access routes, etc. And i could "try" a crate (which would make life so much easier for all of us) but i just know i would have to 'stuff" MM into it... It's woth a shot though to see if he can be coaxed into it. My female and he do not get along. twice yesterday I sensed things were going downhill quickly... snarling, hairs standing up on the back, throaty growling... only because my female obeys so well, was I able to make a loud noise and instruct her to go inside. he was outside on the leash with me. I don't know if it's "hormones" or that she is trying to "protect" us from the new guy... Scary stuff, to say the least. I will get the orange ball with holes in it and give it a shot. Hot dogs in there may do the trick last night, for the very first time, he tested out getting up on a dog bed. (So I lost "my" bed hahaha)...he slept ALL night long. Wow. I just know he has never had a doggie bed before the way he acted before getting into it. I love that he loves it!! Today, i am going to puit it in our bedroom and test him in the room, on a bed, with the tv on... A crate with king-of a dog bed in it would be awesome in this situation. Thanks again for ALL the help, info and great advice as well as all the kind donations!! |
sad_stray_finder wrote: Thanks again for all the helpful info. I have given much thought to baby gates and i wish so much they would work here, but lots of openings that are not gate friendly, bad access routes, etc. And i could "try" a crate (which would make life so much easier for all of us) but i just know i would have to 'stuff" MM into it... It's woth a shot though to see if he can be coaxed into it. Our Nola was an abused rescue. She didn't know how to play, didn't trust humans and definitely DID NOT like to go in a crate! It was a gradual but eventually she went into the crate by herself and is comfortable there! We used a combination of praise (for going in) and treats (to lure her in) and let her take her time doing it (aka, we didn't force her in). It didn't take long until she finally just went in herself...now it's her safe haven (away from Sam  ) and she goes in just to relax! Thanks for all the updates!!! |
| When my sheepie got too big for a crate but still couldn't be trusted when we were away, we bought a portable pen from Petsmart, and he was perfectly happy in it. They can see what's going on around them and not feel so isolated, and it gives them some room to move about. Plenty of room for a bed, toys, water if needed, etc., and it's open at the top. Do you think it's time to start a new thread on MM, maybe in the medical and nutrition section, since he's no longer a "sad, sad, stray?" (Lucky boy!) |
essgee52 wrote: When my sheepie got too big for a crate but still couldn't be trusted when we were away, we bought a portable pen from Petsmart, and he was perfectly happy in it. They can see what's going on around them and not feel so isolated, and it gives them some room to move about. Plenty of room for a bed, toys, water if needed, etc., and it's open at the top. Do you think it's time to start a new thread on MM, maybe in the medical and nutrition section, since he's no longer a "sad, sad, stray?" (Lucky boy!) GREAT idea! Back to Petsmart today! AND... No sooner did i post this morning's update than i had a "meltdown" in the kitchen when Sweetie (8 yr old female) and MM began growling with each other...and Kilo was trying to dominate. My husband stepped in and told me to let it alone and let them work it out. So with us both at the ready, the dogs all seemed to sniff, circle and (hopefully) figure it out. I had boiled some eggs for breakfast, and kilo and sweetie love warm egg yolk, so I broke off little pieces and hand fed all 3 - taking turns. It was fine too!! Then a few minutes later, it got quiet, so I went searching for Kilo and MM only to find them rolling around on MM's doggie bed, playing like 2 kids. So for now, I feel great progress was made this morning. Thankfully, MM has no idea what a doggie door is yet, so my other two can come and go at will and he's not locked up. BTW, when is "Mom" allowed a nervous breakdown??? |
You are not allowed to have a nervous breakdown!! Long cocktail hours yes, nervous breakdowns, no.  |
dogmom wrote: You are not allowed to have a nervous breakdown!! Long cocktail hours yes, nervous breakdowns, no. Done! |
| If he doesn't like going into the crate and it becomes certain that he won't do it on his own, you could get an airline style that is in two halves, top and bottom. Take the top half off and put his bed in there right in the spot where his bed used to be. At least at first don't even seem to notice it... if you don't notice it, maybe he'll feel it's no big deal. If he does go right in, you're well on your way to getting him used to a crate. One day the other half will appear in the bedroom far away and right-side up so you can't go into it, and it will inch its way closer to his bed every day until it's touching, then leaning on it and so forth. We did this method with a fraidy cat dog that we had 4 months to get ready for an airplane ride. After he was comfortable in his crate we left him in there for longer times, then shorter times. Random, always with a big treat just before we released him. We also practiced moving the crate with him in it, and bumped it around quite a bit. You get the picture. Good luck. |
| With my three, I announce a name before handing over the treat. With experience, they have learnedthey will each get one (or more) and there is no lunging for the treats. |
Mom of 3 wrote: With my three, I announce a name before handing over the treat. With experience, they have learnedthey will each get one (or more) and there is no lunging for the treats. That is exactly what I do as well. I also keep the treat giving in a sequence ex: Violet, china, Asia...the next round, Violet China Asia, so they always know when their turn is and I've never had problems with the treat giving. |
I do that - but do the order different each round. The randomness keeps them from figuring it out and anticipating their turn!  |
sad_stray_finder wrote: essgee52 wrote: Then a few minutes later, it got quiet, so I went searching for Kilo and MM only to find them rolling around on MM's doggie bed, playing like 2 kids. So for now, I feel great progress was made this morning. Thankfully, MM has no idea what a doggie door is yet, so my other two can come and go at will and he's not locked up. BTW, when is "Mom" allowed a nervous breakdown??? I think that Kilo(where did THAT name come from?) and MM are going to be great friends. As for the breakdowns...the shower works great for that, ie "no one can hear you cry" Ron...great idea! |
| Ellen and Scott you're doing a great job! Spacegirl moved the chipin page to General and Jaci did a wonderful job condensing all the info onto the page so that's it easier for members to keep track and view the chipin. Come on Muffin we're all cheering you on! |
Ron wrote: If he doesn't like going into the crate and it becomes certain that he won't do it on his own, you could get an airline style that is in two halves, top and bottom. Take the top half off and put his bed in there right in the spot where his bed used to be. At least at first don't even seem to notice it... if you don't notice it, maybe he'll feel it's no big deal. This too is awesome advice, thank you Ron. I looked at them online...they don't seem very big though. What size do you recommend? I never got by there yesterday like I wanted because i HAD to go grocery shopping... first day away from Mr. muffin. I dreaded going because i knew there would be "#@*! to pay when I got back from his SA issues. And yes, I was right. carpet shredded, puppy pads ripped up and shrewn everywhere... but man oh man was he happy to see me when I got home. I think our MM is used to being a 'naughty boy' when left alone because he had that cowering body language and a look in his eye of, "I know I wasn't s'posed to do all this damage but I did, please don't be mad"...and when he saw I wasn't he was just ecstatic. Makes me not too eager to leave him alone again...so who is training who then ?? Then last night I put his small doggie bed (dog mattress) on the floor in our bedroom...and he loved being a part of all of us in there. A couple of times he would open his eyes, jump up and look around. Then as soon as he saw me, he would get back in his bed and go back to sleep. This lasted til about 12:30 then I just got up with him, took his small dog bed, my pillows and blanket and all and we went back to "his' room. I slept beside him the rest of the night til 5:30 this morning... He was all but snuggled up next to me. And we haven't stopped since! Dog diapers - best invention since sliced bread. Got to have at least 1 more. Seems all I do is wash and dry it. But we have graduated from the harness to a neck collar now, so that is good. And he has figured out what a Dingo is - also good! He did growl at me and I ignored it because he is on med's still but later that is a scolding offense, to say the least. I would never hit him, and will always be very picky about how i ever scold or correct him, but growling is not going to be tolerated. Also, he is scratching, rubbing, pawing at his eyes sometimes. Anybody have any ideas what that may be about? The mobile vet is gone for a week or so, and he is NOT ready to go to the regular vets. He is terrified of cars, understandably so if he was indeed hit by one. So I just wondered if this is common? I have never once seen my dogs do it... Anyway, just wanted to catch everybody up, say thank you once again for all the great advice about the playpen, crate, treats and just EVERYTHING! And thank you all for moving the chipin info to general. You guys are amazing!! ps - As for Kilo... he is a german sheperd that came from a K9 breeder. |
I've been on the road and am just now catching up on how MM is doing; sounds like a lot of good news, but also a lot of work. You're certainly to be commended for your patience, compassion, commitment and understanding!  Bravo for doing so much for this guy; he wouldn't have lasted long either in the wild or at a shelter; you've really given him a chance a a whole new life!!! |
| With eyes it's hard to say. I'd check to see if there's anything caught under the lids, and look for signs of discharge. It there's a normal, dried little bit of dark stuff that's not a concern. If you see green or yellow then there's a good chance he's got some sort of infection. There could even be scratches that are bothering him. Do you see anything that looks red or inflamed? Tracie PS....It goes without saying but,  to you and the Muffin Man |
Maybe he has a cut on the cornea. Ellen, you mentioned b/4 he was in brambles and bushes. Possibly a stick? Mr Muffin is such great "LOVE INVESTMENT"!!!!!  |
| I know first hand how really hard it is trying to figure how how best to contain a dog with SA, but it has to be done. Crating or a puppy proof room is mandatory. If he eats the carpet, the puppy pads, chews electric cords, drywall, etc., he could end up with an obstruction or injury and all the costs that go with it. I would select a sturdy, very well built crate. Quote: I think our MM is used to being a 'naughty boy' when left alone because he had that cowering body language and a look in his eye of, "I know I wasn't s'posed to do all this damage but I did, please don't be mad"...and when he saw I wasn't he was just ecstatic. It took several months for me to learn this... but Panda was a patient teacher ...Ignore any cowering behavior and take steps to prevent the damage the next time. It's just beyond his ability to control this right now... he panics when you leave. Make coming and going a non-event. Ignore him for a short time when you get home or just enter the room so he'll calm down. Unless your ok with having a dog glued to your hip 24/7 , you'll need to start removing yourself from his presence for small periods of time to help him begin to adapt. It's totally understandable that you want to comfort this boy but if you're doing things now that you won't be doing later (like sleeping with him), it's going to be more difficult to make that change later. Getting through SA is going to take baby steps... you'll likely see progress, then regression, and then progress yet again. http://www.petfinder.com/pet-training/d ... xiety.html http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/4 ... xiety.aspx http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/1 ... oning.aspx Remember you're in the honeymoon period right now... you don't really know this boy. |
Ellen, you and Scott have done an amazing job with Muffin. There has been so much advice you head must be swimming!!!! Nobody knows how long this boy has been alone on his own or all he has experienced in his short life. And you never will know.  That's a fact. It took time for you to catch him and your methods were great. You were building trust. You are the one reading his behavior and responding accordingly. SA is tough!!!! It is going to take TIME to undo what he has learned to survive. Having him sleep in the bedroom with his bed is, in my opinion, a good idea. But I would not be leaving my bed to go sleep with him on his. Call me crazy, but mine sleep with me!!  You are learning about eachother and he wants to be with you. MM loves you and trusts you. You are his person. I still say, try filling a kong with peanut butter when you need to be away form him. He will associate something tasty when you leave. Keep trying to expand the time that you are gone and coming back. Then he will know you are coming back. Mr. Muffin will come around. And it will be on HIS timetable. The key is TIME!!! It WILL happen.  Many good suggestions on this forum but you are his mom and will do what is right for him, as you have already. |
| Ellen, thank you for all you are doing for Mr. Muffin. He is just precious and so worth all of your efforts! THIS STORY IS CONTINUED HERE: Dealing with an Aggressive Rescue Dog |
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