Help - Pru "biting" at 4 yo
Piper is obsessed with Pru and constantly gets in her face. When Pru was about 12 weeks old she lunged in "anger" at her when Piper was being a bit too overbearing. Since then, I am constantly telling and reminding Piper to stay out of her face. It happened once again last month, when I wasn't paying attention. I heard Pru give a clear soft bark that was saying "go away" and Piper had this freaked out look and I realized Pru snapped at her. We had the "talk" of leaving Pru alone while she is sleeping (and I didn't see exactly what irritated Pru to say much more than that). It's a continuous fear of mine (I am a ER and PICU RN and have seen some horrid dog bites and it's ALWAYS this age group because they are at eye level and get in the pup's face too much). The worst I have seen were from family dogs that never bit anyone else but did a 2-5 year old child that was just the right size to hurt a pup in just the right places. Under watchful eye, Piper still rolls all over Pru. I still get on to her and stay next to them, as I do want Pru to be tolerant and never to bite. However, I stress that Piper should stay out of her face, but it is a CONSTANT battle. Today, in that "moment" I wasn't watching I heard that bark again and out from behind the couch comes Piper - clearly startled/freaked out - and calmly follows Pru...at which point Piper burst into tears and says Pru bit her on her face. Now....here is what I know.. no skin was broken, it was raised white whelp like marks...but definitely on her cheeks. What I think is Pru did snap but in a warning type way - as it was quick, not loud, and if she wanted to "bite" her she could have. I don't know what to do to discipline Pru also...it's not o.k. I know the majority of instruction is for Piper, but I want to curb any behavior like that by Pru. Funny thing is, she never nips at me, but still does Michael when she needs something (potty or attention). Anyone else with anything else to offer or have a similar experience? I know she was around Amber's kids, as a young pup, and overall is very tolerant of Piper. Before the "incident" she got on the floor to lay down with Piper on the floor and was very sweet and playful. Since I didn't see it - again - I feel like there must be something specific Piper has done each time that triggers this...but Piper won't fess up or isn't able to put 2 and 2 together  (4 yo explanation isn't working) I know the first 2 times, Pru was napping (or trying to)...and I think she was today also...Anyway...just concerned and looking for any feedback I can get. |
|
|
| Mrs. J should be posting here on how to raise an OES puppy with children. She's an expert! Quote: Under watchful eye, Piper still rolls all over Pru. I would not allow your child to roll all over the dog. The child is acting like a littermate and the pup may view her as one. If the behavior is repeating itself, supervise child and dog 100% of the time they are together... step in if you see something that mimics a littermate or might be construed as rough or unacceptable behavior by either "party".  If you can't supervise, the pup should be kenneled. Both child and pup need to make these mistakes so both can learn limits and proper ways to interact. And it needs to be done at this early age before behaviors may become set. I think the pup is trying to tell your child that a certain behavior is unacceptable or that it's reached a limit. Best if you step in and stop that behavior so the pup doesn't have to. Could be too that the pup just needs a nap or some down time. Even a wee child can have control over a dog. My son thought this was so funny... friends of his have a 3 year old daughter who points a little finger at her big dogs and tells them to sit or whatever... and they listen.  She's quite authoritative I guess. Never too young for them to take the roll of head honcho! |
| Definitely see the litter mate thought...makes sense. I do not condone Piper rolling on her, but I don't make her stay away from Pru, because I got an OES due to their temperament ...of which Pru has a great one. Keep in mind, this has happened 3 times since November, so rare only. The first time was right in front of me. I would like to say that I have eyes on my child and dog 100% of every second, but that is just not going to be....the phone rings, I turn my head (which is what happened today), have to go to the bathroom, etc... Today was literally within less than 1 minute of not realizing Piper had gone over to Pru. I do think due to Piper's size and how she likes to play, that Pru does probably see her as a litter mate and feels more at ease at telling her she doesn't like whatever it is in the way she would let a litter mate know. Especially because she didn't break the skin, so clearly didn't "bite" down hard. I didn't see it happen per se, so I can't even be sure she did it with intent...but the bark of "that's enough" was clear (that quick, short "go away" bark...which was soft and not deep or mean though). I am just frustrated because I can't really teach Pru not to do it, when each time has been when my head was turned (and so rare, that it is not a repetitive type thing...I mean last time was like 1st week of Jan.). It is just like when our sheepies take the moment they can to "help themselves" to whatever they see opportunity to get into, my 4 year old seizes opportunity just the same. I have had Pru and her together and giving Piper "kisses" on her cheek, and both seem as if nothing happened. Piper is a lover child, she likes to hug and hug everyone in her life, Pru is no exception. At 4 yr old we are teaching her spacial boundaries and that constant hugging, though well intentioned, sometimes is not wanted 24/7  ...and that Pru's only way of telling her is to give her a quick bark of disapproval. I just wish I could have the same conversation with Pru  |
Quote: Could be too that the pup just needs a nap or some down time The more I think about it, it may be that Piper needs the nap . If I remember, each time Pru was taking one...though I cannot be 100% on today, she was very quiet and I assume asleep behind the couch - where Piper found her . I will have to watch the small upright's nap time more closely... |
| With Mequpak (a very typical puppy who had a HATE for being grabbed and would give a terrible growl and turn back to try to get you) ...I have to admit I had moments of fear too. Even for myself. So I immediately told myself, don't give the impression you're hesitant around him and whenever the kids were near...I WAS RIGHT THERE. There were 0 instances of the kids were around the dog and I was away. I wanted to be there to correct my kids and the dog for ANYTHING. I wanted to make sure the kids could touch the dog ANYWHERE, so when the dog growled, I held him down and said EXCUUUSSE ME? And made sure each of the kids did get the pet him. With that said, I made it very clear to the kids that the dog will bite ...and we will NOT reprimand the dog if he gives a warning for treating him inappropriately and you ignore it. this also applied to our toddler (joshee) who did not know what that meant... It took time and I mean... like 10 months of constant supervision before he got it down completely but both had to know what was acceptable. the kids had to be gentle and since we knew mequpak didn't like a lot of pressure on him... the kids understood YOU WERE GOING TO GET HURT if you grabbed him suddenly. Mequpak realized that if mommy or daddy were in the room... the LOOK at him was enough "over time" to make him understand there should be some tolerance, some forgiveness on his part when dealing with the little guys. He stopped all the growling he did as a pup and learned to just pop up and leave (popping up did mean he'd leave a lot of heads right on the tile), but again... he never got in trouble for things he was doing RIGHT. I think I repeated myself a few times now ...but my point is, both learn their place ...it just takes a lot of time and patience and most importantly... you being there every single incident. You know every kid (properly raised at least) will intentionally do bad things when they know mom is walking like a hawk and always giving the "remember to be nice..." speech whenever play starts.If my toddler can learn, and then we brought in a NEW baby who also quickly learned (faster than the toddler haha), ...your 4 yo should be a breeze with time!! My 4yo at the time we got him just needed to get nipped once before he learned. |
| Pru may see your daughter as a littermate but I think its more like "I'm asleep and you're bugging me". Teach your daughter that when the dogs asleep its hands off. She's old enough to understand that. |
Thanks everyone!  We have definitely been doing all of that -teaching not to bug her when she is asleep, but I think I just have to get sterner (with the 4 year old...not Pru ). I am definitely going to be more conscienscious of assuring my full attention is on both when we are together...it is SOOO easy to get distracted . I am not extremely concerned, as it's not a major problem and I do appreciate that Pru didn't get "angry" but was letting Piper know..."back off"...so for that I am grateful. This time her teeth made contact so it freaked me out I....rightfully so. It was my wake up call to pay more attention for awhile. I ended up on some websites, by chance (see other post), that reminded me of all of this and I got some great information on them also. I feel more equipped to handle them both now |
I don't have experience with children. But I what I found with Langley is I cannot get excited and play rough with him. I cannot roughhouse at all. He loves his cuddles which is great he will lay by me forever and be patted. But he gets SOOO crazy and excited at the age of 3 years still! If I try to play, so I don't  Maybe you can teach Piper to just pet Pru gently. haha I don't know how kids work if it was me I would make something up haha to why she cannot play rough with the puppy. Until you can trust both they cannot be with each other alone I guess. I never let them by themselves when they were puppies always in the room with me or crated. But I only lived in a small one floor house and don't have kids so I am sure it isn't that easy for you  I cannot imagine how much harder it must be with kids and dogs woo wee! Kudos to you!  |
Maybe the two legged puppy needs caging  |
bonnaroofairy wrote: Today, in that "moment" I wasn't watching I heard that bark again and out from behind the couch comes Piper - clearly startled/freaked out - and calmly follows Pru...at which point Piper burst into tears and says Pru bit her on her face. I researched breeds very carefully so I would have the best chance of getting a family dog that would be good with children. I decided on the OES for several reasons. The only negatives about the breed I heard were that the grooming is a big deal and that this breed will "herd" kids and can knock them down. I didn't think either of those things sounded like a big deal, so we got an OES puppy who is now nearly 2. Our puppy was aggressive right from the beginning. She displayed "resource guarding" from the day we brought her home, when she was just a precious ball of fluff. I had never heard of a puppy that small growling and guarding food. The "food guarding" has always been her primary aggression issue (though not the only one), and I have done everything possible (you name it) to fix the problem. Certain things have helped somewhat (having the kids feed her, for example), but the problem is definitely not gone and I don't believe it ever will be. My kids are elementary school aged and not toddlers at the dog's eye level. Our OES growls at them at least once a week, and has bitten both of them on multiple occasions, sometimes breaking the skin. I have never owned a vicious dog, and I've had dogs my whole life. Previously I have owned mutts and never had any problem of this sort. I thought getting a purebred dog would give me more piece of mind (I'd know what kind of personality traits were bred into the dog), but it has definitely not worked out that way for us. When I heard that a downside of an OES was their potential to accidentally knock a child down with "herding," I didn't think that sounded like a big deal. And it wouldn't be. However, this herding instinct, at least in our dog, is much, much stronger than that. She barks, lunges, and snaps when we hug our kids or snuggle up to read them a book. Whether this is herding instinct or guarding instinct, I don't know. It doesn't matter. Her aggressive outbursts generally come when nobody is bothering her, and her aggression is almost always directed at the kids. She has growled at not just the kids, but both my husband and myself when we've walked past her while she's eating. She eats in a fairly out-of-the-way spot, not in a high-traffic area of the house. So even if you walk past the room where she eats, you're still three or four feet away from her (i.e., not approaching or threatening her food, not even in the same room). But still she lifts her head and growls. She has also growled at and snapped at her very patient groomer on several occasions. I certainly can't blame the OES breed for the temperament problems our dog has, but as much as I love this breed in so many ways, I would never get another. Our OES had these issues from day one, but things have gotten worse and scarier as she has matured. For whatever reason, she is a grouchy dog. She gets tons of exercise (we live in the country), is never left alone for long periods of time, and is a family dog who is treated kindly and trained well. We even had her examined by the vet to see if she is in pain. I spent $500 getting every work-up you can imagine, just to see if maybe there was something wrong that was causing her to be so intolerant and testy. There is nothing wrong with her physically. I know that any dog can be aggressive, but the lesson I have learned is that you can't tell from the breed description what any dog will be like. I paid a ton of money for our dog, thinking this investment would help keep my kids safe. But sadly this has not been the case. Of the six dogs I've had in my life, this is the only one that has ever bitten or even growled at anybody. I feel for you. We dearly love our OES, but I fear for my children every day and am afraid to have them invite friends to the house. It's on ongoing problem that I'm not sure how to resolve. |
| I'm sorry Serpico, that you are having this problem. Unfortunately, it sounds like your puppy/dog was a bad apple. There are many breeders (and I use this term loosely) in every breed out there who focus on selling dogs and not making a good disposition and temperament a priority. They see they can breed 2 purebred dogs and sell puppies.  I do hope you have told the breeder of your difficulties and hopefully they will reconsider breeding these dogs. A well bred OES should be everything you hoped for, not what you got.   |
Schubert the devil will bite our legs, boss us around the house, herd us from our home to the park, steal socks and underwear, bark and demand that we give in to all his desires  ....... but in front of any child he becomes the most tolerant angel......  However, if you shove your face in front of his face, he will either give you a gentle kiss or try to shove your head into his mouth depending on his mood..... |
| Hi Serpico, I have exactly the same type of OES. He was agressive since I brought him home. He has serious food agression towards other dogs not people. It is to the point he will kill another dog for the smallest piece of food on the floor. He has bit my dad on many occassions. He growls and snaps if he doesn't want to do something. He has had training and I have had several behaviourists in for his crazy behaviour. He is nothing like an OES that you read about. I waited 30 years to get an OES and like you, I will never get another one. Harry was diagnosed as Hyper active. I have had dogs all my life. He likes children when we go to the dog park, however, I don't like him playing with them, as I'm not sure if he'll snap at them for no apparent reason. I spoke to the breeder and he stated it was all my fault, and that I could bring him back and he would put him down. Well that won't be happening, he's only 14 months old and Harry does have some good qualities. When I mentioned this to the behavourist, she said that his behaviour/aggression is some thing that was breed into him and nothing I did. So my heart goes out to you, as I can understand. Good luck to you. |
| We have been incident free since the original occurrence that Tiff wrote this post about. The little one has been watched to make sure she is not doing anything to irritate Pru and Pru is loving and playful with Piper. She does like to herd her but Piper finds this to be rather a bit entertaining. The best thing is when Pru sits in Piper's lap, causing Piper to disappear! From the day Pru arrived(THANK YOU BLUSHIRE!!) and had her first meal with us we sat and petted her as she ate. She has absolutely no aggression while eating, or any other time for that matter. Our family couldn't be happier with our decision to get Pru. She has been a wonderful wonderful addition to our family. We have been nothing but happy with the entire experience from the moment we first contacted Amber about getting an OES. I would say, from our experience trying to decide where our OES would come from and talking to numerous breeders, that finding the right breeder is the key to finding the right the pup! After Tiff had her first conversation with Amber we were pretty sure she was our breeder. After we had both spoken to her multiple times via phone and email we had no doubt that the puppy we would get from her would be the perfect puppy for our family and we were right!!! Pru is at this moment on the couch with our girls giving them some serious love!!! Very very sweet!!  Don't give up on the OES... it's a wonderful breed! |
| Can I just add for those with food aggression what I did that helped. First a little history. Simon was 8wks old when we adopted him. He was our darling little puppy who growled when we walked past him when eating  . I tried a number of things and what worked was hand feeding him. Sitting on the floor and feeding him every morsel for a few days. Progress with holding the bowl and sticking my hand in it with him eating at the same time. He's a smart boy, he learned pretty quick.There are still times when he "looks" at me if I'm passing while he's eating but I just give him "the look" or just ignore and things go back to normal. Let me also add that he is a growly dog. He doesn't show his teeth but he growls A LOT. Happy, po'd or just getting his, what I call his silly face ,rubbing his face all over the bed and coming up with his hair all over the place, on. Sometimes I reprimand him, if I feel its uncalled for and sometimes I just take it for talking back. When he was younger, he did snap at me a few times. Those times he got a serious reprimand. Do I believe this dog would bite me...I do...if I pushed him too far. He has limits and I respect those. |
| Our Butchy is very good about not guarding his food or any of some of the other issues people have mentioned but when it comes to Jared, our youngest grandson, there are still some of the herding issues. A lot of the problem is that Jared doesn't listen and does things that can aggrivate an oes and Butch thinks he has to be in control of the situation. I think the way Mrs. J handled it with her kids and dogs makes a lot of sense and she realized the dog has some rights too. That is what we are trying to get across. Of course they don't see each other that much and that doesn't help. I love the breed and there can be issues with any dog, I would have several if I were young enough and rich enough. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|